I like the green splash but do not dismiss the red notion out of hand. Pyroclasm is a pretty big bomb IF you are playing in an Affinity / Gruul / Goblins meta. Yes I just said Goblins. I see them pretty often online, sadly.
I hate Goblins. So much. So very much. Even more than those filthy Elves. I hated them in Old extended to the point of designing decks to beat them first, then everything else was just a bonus.
Hate.
Goblins.
Also Lightning Bolt with the red splash, 1cc multi purpose spot removal.
I totally agree that Confidant, or a Confidant effect, is a natural inclusion in the deck. Playing him on turn 3-4, after we have already set up some kind of discard screen, is a great way to keep staying ahead of our opponent. That said, I might actually prefer to run the underappreciated and underutilized Phyrexian Arena just to dodge removal. The only difference between the two is the mana cost, and although that makes a world of difference in most decks, I feel like our lock can afford to have the engine come online a turn or two later. If nothing else, the 3 mana price tag might be justified by its staying power in a field dominated by removal. Abrupt Decay vulnerability is still an issue, but less so given our discard. .
I think that could be true, coming down a turn later isn't a big deal if your early turns are spent nailing cards with Thoughtseize and crew. It competes a bit with Liliana in the 3 spot though. The deck could even run both, probably not maindeck, but im some matchups there is no effect more valuable, and having a 4/2 split or something a in game 2 or 3 could be really strong.
Tarmogoyf is pretty sick in this deck, since the yard fills up REALLY fast. He blocks anything they put down in the first few turns, can't be burned, and the removal that he does end up eating (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom pulse) is things that you didn't want aimed at your Liliana or Rack cards anyway. I know, another creature. But hey, creatures are really good if you cripple both players hands right off the bat.
I disagree on goyf, but agree on confidant. I'm going to test him out (since modern masters has gifted me with 2 from trades. one game he came out and didnt live
I disagree on goyf, but agree on confidant. I'm going to test him out (since modern masters has gifted me with 2 from trades. one game he came out and didnt live
My only issue with Bob is when he comes out and I double draw Lilly with a Bridge out versus 4 Souls tokens. I actually died from this in testing.
If you hate swarm decks I suggest that you run Infest in your board. That and Darkblast. Have I mentioned that Darkblast beats Affinity almost singlehandedly?
AND for you Goyf/Creature guys. Running dudes with Ensnaring Bridge is a counter productive. If you want to go that route drop the bridges.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Sounds a good idea, especially against jund. And a decent 2-3 of.
Yeah, there is bridge, but the deck has no tutro/draws, so something else to stall would be good
watching the video now, and woot, I made it into the primer.
I dislike the creatures. the more I play with them the more I hate small pox, but small pox was too good to pass up.
Edit: like in the video, I really want to point out the part he says on this not being a mono black control deck, or midrange deck is very apt. Focus on the discard.
Played a bit more and I refined my list a bit. the draw more stuff was cool, but the only times I wanted it was when I wanted to turbo out discard... but even then if it were a lili or ravens crime I probably wouldnt have had an issue...
So what I opted for (mostly due to junk/d) was beeseach the queen. It gets me a lili or a brige when I need it (thus its in the sideboard). PS. I havent lost a game against blue.
Should note that the raven/salvage thing is bruttal. also since Im down to 2 creatures, small pox is awesomer. Another guy bites the dust to it. heres my list.
I should note I've played a lot of lock decks before, but this one is actually really good. Like it seems like a joke on paper, but of all the wacky decks i've played (and generally I play all of them a couple times to see if they have potential) this one is really good. It has a hard game against jund/k but it wrecks blue tempo/control which is really making a comeback.
I have been playing discard decks since forever, so I think I can add something on this deck.
Three are the main problems of the deck: searching for bridges, going into topdeck mode, non-reactive strategy
Bridge-dependancy is actually a huge issue, we are always threatened as long as we are not able to play a bridge.
In legacy, this is not a problem, since we have things like dark rituals.
On the other hand, in modern, a turn 3 drop is sometimes just too slow.
Sure once it is dropped is almost a guaranteed lock, since the opponents will have to wait for a solution, if any, but considering the cost and the fact that it is an artifact, playing around bridge is not a big deal.
Topdeck mode is something subtle. We cannot hard lock the game like in legacy, where we have Null Brooch. Even if the opponent draws just one card, he is able to put a threat to us each turn. It is worth nothing that they will have to deal with rack/shrieking, we will not be able to keep answers against them since our goal is to be hand empty. An obvious solution would be putting BoB... So are Dark Confidants worth it? Absolutely not. Games may be very long and a Confidant on the board is really difficult to deal with for us, unless we want to give to the opponent the possibility to keep one more card in hand or destroying our manabase with a smallpox.
The real problem is that we cannot easily tutor cards and even if we would be able to, we have almost zero solution to non-creature board threats.
Non-reactive means that we cannot usually deal with a threat that has been already casted. If something unexpected is able to sneak on the board on the opponent side, you can rest assured that it will remain for a long time.
I really wish this kind of deck could be played with a degree of safety, unfortunately it is not.
Honorable mention: a single engineered explosives and it's game.
We don't have any mana acceleration, that's the drawback.
The deck "may" work in Legacy, in modern we can't hope to win just by removing them 2 cards in 2 turns.
Played a bit more and I refined my list a bit. the draw more stuff was cool, but the only times I wanted it was when I wanted to turbo out discard... but even then if it were a lili or ravens crime I probably wouldnt have had an issue...
So what I opted for (mostly due to junk/d) was beeseach the queen. It gets me a lili or a brige when I need it (thus its in the sideboard). PS. I havent lost a game against blue.
Should note that the raven/salvage thing is bruttal. also since Im down to 2 creatures, small pox is awesomer. Another guy bites the dust to it. heres my list.
I should note I've played a lot of lock decks before, but this one is actually really good. Like it seems like a joke on paper, but of all the wacky decks i've played (and generally I play all of them a couple times to see if they have potential) this one is really good. It has a hard game against jund/k but it wrecks blue tempo/control which is really making a comeback.
Glad you like the Dakmor tech. You really should try the Darkblasts Lantern.
Onto the EE conversations. You could just run Pithing Needle to shut off EE. Now Chalice of the Void is another story. I think everyone needs to get more in line with the idea that the deck is not going to beat every other deck ever. This is a meta dependent deck. I wouldn't play this 2 weeks in a row at your local shop. This is however a solid choice to take down a Grand Prix or PTQ. Just as long as the meta is right. Much akin to Legacy Dredge, this deck is dead to certain cards. I just think in that same way we should build the sides to address different needs. Even cards that are better at doing what we already do.
If you wanted to add dudes why not add something like Chittering Rats? It's in theme and the 2/2 body can do some work. I have builds with Bloodghast but that's a bit more of a Pox deck then a 8Rack deck.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Nezumi worked back in Old Extended, before Planeswalkers were a thing. The card is outdated and no longer viable. It takes 4 mana and 2 turns to discard 1 card. Whatever else may happen after that (flip or not) is irrelevant. It is not efficient enough.
Augur is somewhat comparable to Wrench Mind. Wrench is lacking in some areas but overall I feel its a much better choice than the agonizingly slow Augur.
I also disagree with your earlier analysis. I think you are judging the deck in a vacuum, without actually playing it in the current field. Your suggestion to add those outdated creatures further reinforces my opinion that you haven't actually tried Modern discard strategies.
Nezumi worked back in Old Extended, before Planeswalkers were a thing. The card is outdated and no longer viable. It takes 4 mana and 2 turns to discard 1 card. Whatever else may happen after that (flip or not) is irrelevant. It is not efficient enough.
Augur is somewhat comparable to Wrench Mind. Wrench is lacking in some areas but overall I feel its a much better choice than the agonizingly slow Augur.
I also disagree with your earlier analysis. I think you are judging the deck in a vacuum, without actually playing it in the current field. Your suggestion to add those outdated creatures further reinforces my opinion that you haven't actually tried Modern discard strategies.
Agreed.
Since it was my post he commented about I'll throw in my two cents. While I suggested Chittering Rats as an option I would still stay away from creatures in this specific deck. While I have a more pox list posted earlier I have made it a point to stick with the non-creature theme. So far so good. If you are on the Bridge plan there is no reason to run guys. I really don't even like DRS since my builds are built to abuse Smallpox.
I mean if we are tossing out Shortfang as an option, why not Hypnotic Specter? With DRS it is a turn 2 play. It has evasion, has [b]RANDOM[b] discard and doesn't die to any -1/-1 effects. Again I still wouldn't play it. Same with anyone who would ask why there isn't a Mind Shatter or Persecute in the deck.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
While we are on the topic of techy inclusions, I wonder if Surgical Extraction would be worth it instead of more expensive and less valuable cards like Shortfang, Specter, etc. This deck is uniquely suited to abuse the turn 1 Discard/Extraction combo, although "abuse" is a bit too strong of a word because the synergy isn't that abusive. But it is nonetheless a powerful effect that can really harm some decks.
I would be hesitant to drop any Lilly's in this deck. Under the M14 rule, there just isn't any reason to not run 4. I also outright disagree with the exclusion of Thoughtseize from some of these lists. It's too good to not use, and it is widely applicable in almost every matchup in the format. If there are any slots to negotiate with, it is the Deathrite/Wrench Mind/Decay slots. With Smallpox now a maindeck mainstay, spot removal loses importance in game 1, so we can cut Decay down to 2-3 to free up some room.
Very nice primer!! Congratulations on that, including videos is certainly something I'd like to see in every primer...
I agree that Nezumi is horribly slow and low-impact in this type of deck... From the videos I've seen, you just seem to rush to discard the opponents hand in the fastest way possible and I think that this is crucial: decks that aren't affinity or zoo might not even be able to land a single threat before having nothing but lands in their hands. Nezumi is slow and non-targeted, and augur of skulls can be traded with a spot removal pretty easily, it's not immediate, and that's not what you want for 2 mana. I'd rather play distress, which I wouldn't. In 2 CMC I find that wrench mind's and smallpox's immediacy and the card advantage they provide (both being slighty situational) is by far more important.
One tip that probably not everybody knows: loxodon smiter's, obstinate baloth's and wilt-leaf liege's have replacement effects, not triggered abilities. If the opponent discards one of them to smallpox without other creature in play, because smallpox is worded so that the discard occurs first, they'll have to sacrifice the creature they put into play afterwards.
Playing 3 Lilys doesn't seem right, even before the rules change. It's just backbreaking to every deck, and it gives you the edge in a way no other card in the deck does. You always want a Lily. Play 4, the card is nuts, even more in this deck.
EDIT: one of the strongest parts of this deck is that it has a lot of cards that are functionally almost identical. It gives you great consistency, and it's very rare that you need to mulligan. Yet, this deck absolutely PREYS on opponent's mulligan. If opponent mulliganed to 6, you have an extremely strong starting point, if opponent went to 5, it's almost certainly game, specially on game 1. Just wanted to remark this quality that not every deck has. It punishes opponent for mulligan VERY HARD.
Glad you like the Dakmor tech. You really should try the Darkblasts Lantern.
This 100%. Darkblast is sweet tech in a deck like this because it keeps your opponent from from recovering fast. It also hits so much that can slip past Bridge, and like Dakmor it can get crime in the grave when you are looking for that inevitability. I am not playing this deck, but I have played decks that ran similarly and Darkblast is just amazing tech.
You know, I am just now wondering why I haven't been using Dismember. It's a giant spot removal card that we can pay 1cc for if we have to.
If using Dismember, Abrupt Decay becomes less necessary, thus the green splash becomes less necessary... ?
While on the subject of splash options, I sometimes prefer a white splash to a green one. Quiet Purity is an easy answer to enemy Leylines, and white has some appealing hate cards to choose from. Also Path to Exile...
@Ktken and Lueseto - Agreed, even now Liliana is so good you simply must run four. With the new Legendary rule coming out, she becomes even better. Lili is the best finisher for a Modern control deck. Blue is really, REALLY jealous! (RIP JTMS)
I hate Goblins. So much. So very much. Even more than those filthy Elves. I hated them in Old extended to the point of designing decks to beat them first, then everything else was just a bonus.
Hate.
Goblins.
Also Lightning Bolt with the red splash, 1cc multi purpose spot removal.
I have an Anti-Tron version that runs Blackmail and Extirpate.
I think that could be true, coming down a turn later isn't a big deal if your early turns are spent nailing cards with Thoughtseize and crew. It competes a bit with Liliana in the 3 spot though. The deck could even run both, probably not maindeck, but im some matchups there is no effect more valuable, and having a 4/2 split or something a in game 2 or 3 could be really strong.
Tarmogoyf is pretty sick in this deck, since the yard fills up REALLY fast. He blocks anything they put down in the first few turns, can't be burned, and the removal that he does end up eating (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom pulse) is things that you didn't want aimed at your Liliana or Rack cards anyway. I know, another creature. But hey, creatures are really good if you cripple both players hands right off the bat.
My only issue with Bob is when he comes out and I double draw Lilly with a Bridge out versus 4 Souls tokens. I actually died from this in testing.
If you hate swarm decks I suggest that you run Infest in your board. That and Darkblast. Have I mentioned that Darkblast beats Affinity almost singlehandedly?
AND for you Goyf/Creature guys. Running dudes with Ensnaring Bridge is a counter productive. If you want to go that route drop the bridges.
Also try the Gibbering Descents. Talk about a one sided beating.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
To do list:
-More info in written primer
-More video matches
-More decklists from the forum
-Anti Jund strategy
Isn't White Leyline and damnation anti jund?
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
Sounds a good idea, especially against jund. And a decent 2-3 of.
Yeah, there is bridge, but the deck has no tutro/draws, so something else to stall would be good
I dislike the creatures. the more I play with them the more I hate small pox, but small pox was too good to pass up.
Edit: like in the video, I really want to point out the part he says on this not being a mono black control deck, or midrange deck is very apt. Focus on the discard.
So what I opted for (mostly due to junk/d) was beeseach the queen. It gets me a lili or a brige when I need it (thus its in the sideboard). PS. I havent lost a game against blue.
Should note that the raven/salvage thing is bruttal. also since Im down to 2 creatures, small pox is awesomer. Another guy bites the dust to it. heres my list.
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Thoughtseize
2 Wrench Mind
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Shrieking Affliction
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Abrupt Decay
I should note I've played a lot of lock decks before, but this one is actually really good. Like it seems like a joke on paper, but of all the wacky decks i've played (and generally I play all of them a couple times to see if they have potential) this one is really good. It has a hard game against jund/k but it wrecks blue tempo/control which is really making a comeback.
Three are the main problems of the deck: searching for bridges, going into topdeck mode, non-reactive strategy
Bridge-dependancy is actually a huge issue, we are always threatened as long as we are not able to play a bridge.
In legacy, this is not a problem, since we have things like dark rituals.
On the other hand, in modern, a turn 3 drop is sometimes just too slow.
Sure once it is dropped is almost a guaranteed lock, since the opponents will have to wait for a solution, if any, but considering the cost and the fact that it is an artifact, playing around bridge is not a big deal.
Topdeck mode is something subtle. We cannot hard lock the game like in legacy, where we have Null Brooch. Even if the opponent draws just one card, he is able to put a threat to us each turn. It is worth nothing that they will have to deal with rack/shrieking, we will not be able to keep answers against them since our goal is to be hand empty. An obvious solution would be putting BoB... So are Dark Confidants worth it? Absolutely not. Games may be very long and a Confidant on the board is really difficult to deal with for us, unless we want to give to the opponent the possibility to keep one more card in hand or destroying our manabase with a smallpox.
The real problem is that we cannot easily tutor cards and even if we would be able to, we have almost zero solution to non-creature board threats.
Non-reactive means that we cannot usually deal with a threat that has been already casted. If something unexpected is able to sneak on the board on the opponent side, you can rest assured that it will remain for a long time.
I really wish this kind of deck could be played with a degree of safety, unfortunately it is not.
Honorable mention: a single engineered explosives and it's game.
Landcronomicon
The deck "may" work in Legacy, in modern we can't hope to win just by removing them 2 cards in 2 turns.
Landcronomicon
Glad you like the Dakmor tech. You really should try the Darkblasts Lantern.
Onto the EE conversations. You could just run Pithing Needle to shut off EE. Now Chalice of the Void is another story. I think everyone needs to get more in line with the idea that the deck is not going to beat every other deck ever. This is a meta dependent deck. I wouldn't play this 2 weeks in a row at your local shop. This is however a solid choice to take down a Grand Prix or PTQ. Just as long as the meta is right. Much akin to Legacy Dredge, this deck is dead to certain cards. I just think in that same way we should build the sides to address different needs. Even cards that are better at doing what we already do.
Illness in the Ranks helps with the token decks.
Infest is soo good versus Pod and D&T.
Darkblast really hurts Affinity.
If you wanted to add dudes why not add something like Chittering Rats? It's in theme and the 2/2 body can do some work. I have builds with Bloodghast but that's a bit more of a Pox deck then a 8Rack deck.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Or even Augur of Skulls
Landcronomicon
No and no.
Nezumi worked back in Old Extended, before Planeswalkers were a thing. The card is outdated and no longer viable. It takes 4 mana and 2 turns to discard 1 card. Whatever else may happen after that (flip or not) is irrelevant. It is not efficient enough.
Augur is somewhat comparable to Wrench Mind. Wrench is lacking in some areas but overall I feel its a much better choice than the agonizingly slow Augur.
I also disagree with your earlier analysis. I think you are judging the deck in a vacuum, without actually playing it in the current field. Your suggestion to add those outdated creatures further reinforces my opinion that you haven't actually tried Modern discard strategies.
Agreed.
Since it was my post he commented about I'll throw in my two cents. While I suggested Chittering Rats as an option I would still stay away from creatures in this specific deck. While I have a more pox list posted earlier I have made it a point to stick with the non-creature theme. So far so good. If you are on the Bridge plan there is no reason to run guys. I really don't even like DRS since my builds are built to abuse Smallpox.
I mean if we are tossing out Shortfang as an option, why not Hypnotic Specter? With DRS it is a turn 2 play. It has evasion, has [b]RANDOM[b] discard and doesn't die to any -1/-1 effects. Again I still wouldn't play it. Same with anyone who would ask why there isn't a Mind Shatter or Persecute in the deck.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I would be hesitant to drop any Lilly's in this deck. Under the M14 rule, there just isn't any reason to not run 4. I also outright disagree with the exclusion of Thoughtseize from some of these lists. It's too good to not use, and it is widely applicable in almost every matchup in the format. If there are any slots to negotiate with, it is the Deathrite/Wrench Mind/Decay slots. With Smallpox now a maindeck mainstay, spot removal loses importance in game 1, so we can cut Decay down to 2-3 to free up some room.
I agree that Nezumi is horribly slow and low-impact in this type of deck... From the videos I've seen, you just seem to rush to discard the opponents hand in the fastest way possible and I think that this is crucial: decks that aren't affinity or zoo might not even be able to land a single threat before having nothing but lands in their hands. Nezumi is slow and non-targeted, and augur of skulls can be traded with a spot removal pretty easily, it's not immediate, and that's not what you want for 2 mana. I'd rather play distress, which I wouldn't. In 2 CMC I find that wrench mind's and smallpox's immediacy and the card advantage they provide (both being slighty situational) is by far more important.
One tip that probably not everybody knows: loxodon smiter's, obstinate baloth's and wilt-leaf liege's have replacement effects, not triggered abilities. If the opponent discards one of them to smallpox without other creature in play, because smallpox is worded so that the discard occurs first, they'll have to sacrifice the creature they put into play afterwards.
Playing 3 Lilys doesn't seem right, even before the rules change. It's just backbreaking to every deck, and it gives you the edge in a way no other card in the deck does. You always want a Lily. Play 4, the card is nuts, even more in this deck.
EDIT: one of the strongest parts of this deck is that it has a lot of cards that are functionally almost identical. It gives you great consistency, and it's very rare that you need to mulligan. Yet, this deck absolutely PREYS on opponent's mulligan. If opponent mulliganed to 6, you have an extremely strong starting point, if opponent went to 5, it's almost certainly game, specially on game 1. Just wanted to remark this quality that not every deck has. It punishes opponent for mulligan VERY HARD.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
If using Dismember, Abrupt Decay becomes less necessary, thus the green splash becomes less necessary... ?
While on the subject of splash options, I sometimes prefer a white splash to a green one. Quiet Purity is an easy answer to enemy Leylines, and white has some appealing hate cards to choose from. Also Path to Exile...
@Ktken and Lueseto - Agreed, even now Liliana is so good you simply must run four. With the new Legendary rule coming out, she becomes even better. Lili is the best finisher for a Modern control deck. Blue is really, REALLY jealous! (RIP JTMS)