After trying a list rather like Badd B's Primal Command list on Cockatrice (after being disappointed with the Wolf Run Leyline Titan list's inconsistency and inability to kill/clock Pod, although maybe I'm mulliganing wrong with that deck), I second adding Garruk Wildspeaker. Unlike Wolfbriar Elemental, who's only good when you have some ramp, Garruk W is good when you have only 4 mana and his ability to ramp further helps. He helped me cast Primal Command on 3-4 lands surprisingly often in testing against RG Tron and Twin, and those are match-ups where I lean on Primal Command (and I still needed to chew up Tron's mana base further with Ghost Quarter, so that made me be stuck on 3-4 lands).
After trying a list rather like Badd B's Primal Command list on Cockatrice (after being disappointed with the Wolf Run Leyline Titan list's inconsistency and inability to kill/clock Pod, although maybe I'm mulliganing wrong with that deck), I second adding Garruk Wildspeaker. Unlike Wolfbriar Elemental, who's only good when you have some ramp, Garruk W is good when you have only 4 mana and his ability to ramp further helps. He helped me cast Primal Command on 3-4 lands surprisingly often in testing against RG Tron and Twin, and those are match-ups where I lean on Primal Command (and I still needed to chew up Tron's mana base further with Ghost Quarter, so that made me be stuck on 3-4 lands).
Could you post your list Lectrys? I would be interested in seeing it (and adding to the OP). With this being such a new deck, I think it's a great idea to trade ideas, and specifically what does and doesn't work well from testing.
I just 3-1'ed a daily event with the Primal Command variant beating U/R twin, Scapeshift, Merfolk, and losing a close match to Willy Edel playing Junk. I may have 4-0'ed with it had I not miscounted a land when casting a primal command, and tutored the wrong card.
The deck needs a little work. Things I've noticed - I never want to draw Terastodon. I think it may go into the sideboard. Wolfbriar isn't bad since with Leyline of Vitality, you get life and 2/3s. Reverent Hunter has always been quite the powerhouse when it comes down. However, I don't know what to cut to get there. Candelabra can get some pretty gnarly setups when you have Nykthos and Minamo in play for your Wolf Run.
The deck needs a little work. Things I've noticed - I never want to draw Terastodon. I think it may go into the sideboard. Wolfbriar isn't bad since with Leyline of Vitality, you get life and 2/3s. Reverent Hunter has always been quite the powerhouse when it comes down. However, I don't know what to cut to get there. Candelabra can get some pretty gnarly setups when you have Nykthos and Minamo in play for your Wolf Run.
Still, some tweaking advice would help.
I'll say add the 4th Garruk. I played 3 before, too. I thought i don't want to draw more than 1, but that turned out to be wrong. In my opinion he's the best 4 drop this deck can play. He pushes your ramp to a new level, protects himself (or you) if necessary and his ultimate can lead to a deathly attack with your otherwise late-game-useless BTE and mana dorks (not to mention how he synergizes with Wolfbriar). And thanks too the new legend rule it's not even bad to have two of them. If your Devotion is 6 or higher (or 5 or higher and you have an Utopia Sprawl out you can even chain them if you want to, to ramp even higher (had this situation once, chained 3 Garruks for a turn 3 Tooth and Nail. Since that Moment I'm convinced he deserves 4 spots:D).
How do you feel about the 4 Sylvan Scrying? I played 2 and even then felt them to be the worst card in my hand quite often. Now i play only 1 and that seems to be enough. But i play 2 Primeval Titans and lots of cantrips so maybe 4 is right for your deck.
I'll say add the 4th Garruk. I played 3 before, too. I thought i don't want to draw more than 1, but that turned out to be wrong. In my opinion he's the best 4 drop this deck can play. He pushes your ramp to a new level, protects himself (or you) if necessary and his ultimate can lead to a deathly attack with your otherwise late-game-useless BTE and mana dorks (not to mention how he synergizes with Wolfbriar). And thanks too the new legend rule it's not even bad to have two of them. If your Devotion is 6 or higher (or 5 or higher and you have an Utopia Sprawl out you can even chain them if you want to, to ramp even higher (had this situation once, chained 3 Garruks for a turn 3 Tooth and Nail. Since that Moment I'm convinced he deserves 4 spots:D).
How do you feel about the 4 Sylvan Scrying? I played 2 and even then felt them to be the worst card in my hand quite often. Now i play only 1 and that seems to be enough. But i play 2 Primeval Titans and lots of cantrips so maybe 4 is right for your deck.
Considering Nykthos is the most important card, I don't think it's questionable at all, especially if you add some other targets to search for such as Kessig Wolf Run, Tectonic Edge, or Minamo in the blue variant.
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Considering Nykthos is the most important card, I don't think it's questionable at all, especially if you add some other targets to search for such as Kessig Wolf Run, Tectonic Edge, or Minamo in the blue variant.
Maybe that's the exact thing I like about my brew, you don't desperately need Nykthos for ramping with Garruk+Utopia Sprawl and Primetime I'm able to hit the nine mana (that I need for T&N) quite often even without Nykthos.
I, who started splashing blue for Minamo, stopped playing it, because it was just not good enough in most cases (you need to have a really good boardstate for activating it if you want to untap Nykthos) and since i play Thrun only as a one of at the moment (giving 'Vigilance' with Minamo was kinda nice sometimes, when I needed to wait for another good draw) it' not worth the screw it can enable in (my) early turns.
That's my second point: With now seven mana dorks and all my cantrips i really need to have coloured mana in my early game. We already play a 4-of land that doesn't provide coloured mana in the early game, so i see only room for one other and that's Kessig Wolf Run.
Maybe if i play more lands, though. I think I'm gonna hav to test that too.
Anybody tried Bear Umbra?
With a more aggressive deck that still plays Utopia Sprawl it could be kinda nice. Maybe with an Enchantment/Aura subtheme and Verduran Enchantress for card draw?
Maybe that's the exact thing I like about my brew, you don't desperately need Nykthos for ramping with Garruk+Utopia Sprawl and Primetime I'm able to hit the nine mana (that I need for T&N) quite often even without Nykthos.
I, who started splashing blue for Minamo, stopped playing it, because it was just not good enough in most cases (you need to have a really good boardstate for activating it if you want to untap Nykthos) and since i play Thrun only as a one of at the moment (giving 'Vigilance' with Minamo was kinda nice sometimes, when I needed to wait for another good draw) it' not worth the screw it can enable in (my) early turns.
That's my second point: With now seven mana dorks and all my cantrips i really need to have coloured mana in my early game. We already play a 4-of land that doesn't provide coloured mana in the early game, so i see only room for one other and that's Kessig Wolf Run.
Maybe if i play more lands, though. I think I'm gonna hav to test that too.
Anybody tried Bear Umbra?
With a more aggressive deck that still plays Utopia Sprawl it could be kinda nice. Maybe with an Enchantment/Aura subtheme and Verduran Enchantress for card draw?
Bear Umbra is great if you like getting 2 for 1'ed by lightning bolt. Anytime you include "could be" when evaluating a card, it's probably a bad idea to play it. You have to assume your opponent is going to have disruption for your strategies (they will), and the decks that don't have disruption will be faster (combo, burn, affinity, tron).
Same goes with Verduran enchantress. There is no point to playing this deck if your entire strategy gets wrecked by pyroclasm, lightning bolt, lightning helix, electrolyze, or any of the other easy kill options that almost every deck in the format plays.
This is why I stay away from burning-tree emissary even though in a vacuum, it's a pretty strong card for the deck. Strangleroot geist plays the same double green devotion role, but does it while being more difficult to remove, and thus take you off devotion. If I could, I would easily play wild growth in here over birds of paradise, but unfortunately, it's not modern legal, and you really want 8 1cmc mana enablers.
Overall, I'm not a fan of Tooth and Nail, as it's too inconsistent and too easy to disrupt. With that said, that's just me, so if it's doing well for you, by all means keep on with it.
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Could you post your list Lectrys? I would be interested in seeing it (and adding to the OP). With this being such a new deck, I think it's a great idea to trade ideas, and specifically what does and doesn't work well from testing.
I just 3-1'ed a daily event with the Primal Command variant beating U/R twin, Scapeshift, Merfolk, and losing a close match to Willy Edel playing Junk. I may have 4-0'ed with it had I not miscounted a land when casting a primal command, and tutored the wrong card.
I started off with your Primal Command list in the OP and modified it:
I'm trying Polukranos in my version as a Game 1 out to Exarch Twin. The 3/3 Firespout/Wolfbriar split has turned into a 2/2/2 Wolfbriar/Garruk W/Polukranos split. After testing Polukranos, I likely want it as a 1-of instead of a 2-of--it's still often too slow against Twin, and Inferno Titan does the board wipe dude job better against Pod. Heck, Viridian Zealot might be the better Game 1 Twin out. (Yeah, I'm probably punting the Pod Game 1 with my current version.)
I replaced one Tec Edge with a Ghost Quarter because I like the extra security against Tron. ...The extra security has actually been pretty swell in testing--GQ hampers RG Tron faster, while some RG Tron draws can actually dodge Tec Edge.
Raging Ravine has been OK as a manland, and it's often my default Sylvan Scrying target after Nykthos. ETB'ing tapped is annoying, though. Sometimes, I wish I played Horizon Canopy as a land with a nonzero chance of increasing my devotion.
Since I took out Firespout, I tried the Hexproof Troll Ascetic, and costing 1GG instead of GGG has actually been pretty good--I get Nykthos/Wolf Run/an LD land and 2 green sources in my opening hand too often. Troll Ascetic is definitely worse in Firespout builds, though, and I'm tempted to go back to Firespout because Polukranos hasn't improved my Twin match-up enough.
Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze are sideboard Primal Command bullets for anti-Infect/Bogles/Twin/Reanimator/Melira Pod/Gifts goodness. I'm not entirely sure whether they're fast enough, though.
I've been disappointed by Detritivore against Twin and RG Tron--even when I slow them down with 8 zillion Primal Commands, I've only been able to set X = 1 at maximum so far. I'm sure it shines against control and likely Scapeshift, but I suspect I'd be happier with Acidic Slime maindeck.
I'm trying Polukranos in my version as a Game 1 out to Exarch Twin. The 3/3 Firespout/Wolfbriar split has turned into a 2/2/2 Wolfbriar/Garruk W/Polukranos split. After testing Polukranos, I likely want it as a 1-of instead of a 2-of--it's still often too slow against Twin, and Inferno Titan does the board wipe dude job better against Pod. Heck, Viridian Zealot might be the better Game 1 Twin out. (Yeah, I'm probably punting the Pod Game 1 with my current version.)
I replaced one Tec Edge with a Ghost Quarter because I like the extra security against Tron. ...The extra security has actually been pretty swell in testing--GQ hampers RG Tron faster, while some RG Tron draws can actually dodge Tec Edge.
Raging Ravine has been OK as a manland, and it's often my default Sylvan Scrying target after Nykthos. ETB'ing tapped is annoying, though. Sometimes, I wish I played Horizon Canopy as a land with a nonzero chance of increasing my devotion.
Since I took out Firespout, I tried the Hexproof Troll Ascetic, and costing 1GG instead of GGG has actually been pretty good--I get Nykthos/Wolf Run/an LD land and 2 green sources in my opening hand too often. Troll Ascetic is definitely worse in Firespout builds, though, and I'm tempted to go back to Firespout because Polukranos hasn't improved my Twin match-up enough.
Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze are sideboard Primal Command bullets for anti-Infect/Bogles/Twin/Reanimator/Melira Pod/Gifts goodness. I'm not entirely sure whether they're fast enough, though.
I've been disappointed by Detritivore against Twin and RG Tron--even when I slow them down with 8 zillion Primal Commands, I've only been able to set X = 1 at maximum so far. I'm sure it shines against control and likely Scapeshift, but I suspect I'd be happier with Acidic Slime maindeck.
I like troll, but I don't know if I love him. I do like that he can just about always be cast without needing 3g. I don't like playing less than 4 leatherback baloths since they provide a fast clock when you need it.
As for the RG tron matchup, there isn't a ton you can do about the T3 Karn, but that still doesn't encompass the majority of their draws. In the same light, if you get a t3 Primal command loop going against them, they're more or less boned as it'll set up a board state of 2 eternal witnesses and a Detritivore then preventing them from getting past 2-3 land.
For whatever it's worth, I usually don't try to cast Detritivore on the same turn I cast primal command, I'll usually just search it up and hold it until the following turn where I can suspend it for 2+. It's a little bit slow, but it's at least helped by the fact that you're timewalking your opponent with command as well.
It was funny, because in the daily event I played, I won 2-0 vs. twin with my list. I wasn't expecting this at all, but g1, he luckily didn't have the t4 combo after remanding one of my early plays. After that, I just set his draws back with the primal command loop. He didn't have any cantrips in hand, so he never drew the requisite twin to deal with the loop before dying. Tectonic edge was also huge here since it was able to keep him off double red & more importantly, kiki jiki mana. G2, I had an opening hand with 2 seal of primordium which more or less won the game for me. I still don't think it's a good matchup, but it's definitely winnable.
I ended up removing black from the deck since it was only particularly good for slaughter games against scapeshift. The thing is, is that scapeshift is a pretty easy matchup with the version I play, so slaughter games just isn't all that important. Just keep them off cryptic command mana via tectonic edge and focus on playing land destruction as you can and you should be able to win. I ended up switching out the slaughter games for 3x Boil, which was really powerful against scapeshift, but also was strong against twin, UWR control, and most blue decks that play any semblance of islands.
On another note, I picked up a Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I'm playing it as a singleton right now. I feel like 5 mana is kind of the "sweet spot" since you can reasonably cast most 5 mana cards t3-t4 with this deck. If they're bombs that work well with Nykthos, it only gets better, and I really like how Garruk can draw lots of cards off his -3.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about firespout. So far, it's just been a very swingy, card, but I feel like I need it due to the prevalance of decks like Affinity & merfolk right now. It also can be a blowout against zoo. At the same point, I hate drawing it against most combo decks, and it's downright awful against control & combo. I don't like the idea of making the opponent's lightning bolts more relevant, but I've actually been considering playing 2-3 Ulvenwald trackers as pseudo removal that can also create devotion. It was a good card in standard "fight club" and this deck incidentally plays quite a few of the similar cards as that did.
Boil seems underutilized in Modern - I hadn't known it was legal until about 2 months ago when it popped up in the SB of one of the first Amulet decks to place in a DE.
Lightning Bolt turned out be... hmm Lightning Bolt:D It's a really really good card that is versatile and damn cheap but to be honest I'd rather play something that synergyzes better with the deck (being able to spend about 10 mana for a spell and drawing a Lightning Bolt feels kinda bad. But right know i haven't found the card i would replace it with (I'm going to try out Comet Storm but I'm not quite sure if it's really the card i want to play. Still hoping for more good cards for this deck in the next Theros Releases:D)
I decided to go more the silverbullet route with 2 Summoner's Pact and Wolfbriar and Thrun only as 1-ofs (and Polukranos and Acidic Slime in SB). Maybe i should play Slime MB, too so i can do something against annoying artefacts and enchantments G1.
All in all the deck feels pretty solid at the moment, having 3 winconditions (Tessig, Garruks Ultimate, T&N) is really nice because I can adapt my playstyle to my opponents deck.
The MU against Affinity is much better with the Bolts and my 2 BoP that can atleast block an equipped evading attacker to give me some time.
Jund/Junk is quite possible although they're really tough G1 if they have a good hand, but with Ground Seal, Kitchen Finks and Obstinate Baloth out of the SB you're usually really good to go (playing more aggressive helps a lot here).
After some more consideration, I think I'm switching over to 4 Reverent Hunter. My build is more based around the Leylines to build immediate devotion. If I can get devotion but not necessarily the mana (i.e., Nykthos), the Hunter is going to quite big already. It can also mean I have some play on turn 2. A draw of Sprawl/Arbor Elf, Leyline, Land/Nykthos, Land, Hunter is only 5 cards but he's a 5/5 immediately. Add in a Leyline/BTE and he's a 7/7. The point is that fat beaters early may be another way to go and you can start racing even affinity that way.
So one of the issues i came across, is that I'd love to have one or two quality mana sinks more. Kessig Wolf Run is really nice, Wolfbriar Elemental can be brutal, too but it kinda often ends up only kicked one or two times because i really need some blockers (I'm thinking about adding Kitchen Finks, they should do that job well) and the best thing i can put my mana in is Tooth and Nail of course, but that's it.
And I don't want to play more high cmc spells, because this deck already doesn't mulligan really well.
So what I look for would be something with cmc 1-3 that i can put pump some mana in after playing it and in the best case of course it also helps my devotion (and is kinda resilient).
I'm really open to ideas (you can find my decklist a few posts above by the way) and I'd really appreciate some help (I only found Unyaro Bees but they literally die to every creature removal there is)
This list just got first place in a MTGO modern event. I really like what it can do. It's not playing scrying, but it IS playing 4x primeval titan, and can combo out off genesis wave, or just ramp into the win.
This list just got first place in a MTGO modern event. I really like what it can do. It's not playing scrying, but it IS playing 4x primeval titan, and can combo out off genesis wave, or just ramp into the win.
This deck looks like it could win as early as turn 3-4?
Badd: Have you thought about Pithing Needle for Karn? Honestly when I'm against Tron he is the only card I ever fear.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
This list just got first place in a MTGO modern event. I really like what it can do. It's not playing scrying, but it IS playing 4x primeval titan, and can combo out off genesis wave, or just ramp into the win.
Can anybody explain me the Cloudstone Curio? Is reusing visionaries, witnesses and Nykthos really good enough for playing a 3 drop that doesnt help you with your Devotion or is there synergy I can't see?
The approach with Genesis Wave seems to be something we should consider, too. I could imagine it to be good in the Leylinebuild (Though that's just speculating).
Titan was always good to me, but i don't understand why he doesnt splash red for Kessig Wolf Run the synergy between those two is just soo good. And using Titan without utility lands is wasted potencial if you ask me.
And when he keeps to monogreen, why does he play Utopia Sprawl and Fertile Ground as a 3/3 split and not 4 Sprawls? costing just one mana makes this card so good for this deck.
The single Karn seems nice, though.
*update*
Saw he plays Blood Moon in SB. So that's the reason for the 3/3 split. I still think splashing for red would be a good idea.
Can anybody explain me the Cloudstone Curio? Is reusing visionaries, witnesses and Nykthos really good enough for playing a 3 drop that doesnt help you with your Devotion or is there synergy I can't see?
The approach with Genesis Wave seems to be something we should consider, too. I could imagine it to be good in the Leylinebuild (Though that's just speculating).
Titan was always good to me, but i don't understand why he doesnt splash red for Kessig Wolf Run the synergy between those two is just soo good. And using Titan without utility lands is wasted potencial if you ask me.
And when he keeps to monogreen, why does he play Utopia Sprawl and Fertile Ground as a 3/3 split and not 4 Sprawls? costing just one mana makes this card so good for this deck.
The single Karn seems nice, though.
It's part of the combo turn that the deck does. It also allows you to basically play Witness then Witness then use your Command to send your opp back to the stone age. Or really any card for that matter. It seems a little loose but once you run it it makes sense. I prefer a Tooth and Nail approach but the Wave deck seems legit.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
It's part of the combo turn that the deck does. It also allows you to basically play Witness then Witness then use your Command to send your opp back to the stone age. Or really any card for that matter. It seems a little loose but once you run it it makes sense. I prefer a Tooth and Nail approach but the Wave deck seems legit.
Im still not sure about Cloudstone Curio but I think I'm gonna take my own approach on a Genesis-Wave-Style-Deck. Maybe I'll understand when I play it.
Also I'm considering dropping blue and switching my Coiling Oracles with Elvish Visionaries. I can play them after an Emissary and most often when i really hoped for a land to topdeck with Oracle, I could have played it from my hand, too. I would need to find a replacement for the Serum Visions too, though, but I would be able to splash white or black instead.
After having some fun with my brew, I guess it's time to test what other approaches can and can not do now.
Still trying the Remands and Oracles. Maybe I should just play the Remands as a Side-deck card and main 4 Visionaries. Still trying to figure out which is better, Oracle or Visionary. Obv Oracle is better but it seems that color is coming into account a lot so it might be best to play Visionaries.
Edit: I'm going to side the Remands because only really wanted for combo. Acolyte is something I've had in and off but there has been a bunch of times when I want it (because no Nykthos or to supplement it) and putting in Scrying is probably too much since its not free and takes up devotion space, especially when I can grab this with Pact.
Can anybody explain me the Cloudstone Curio? Is reusing visionaries, witnesses and Nykthos really good enough for playing a 3 drop that doesnt help you with your Devotion or is there synergy I can't see?
The approach with Genesis Wave seems to be something we should consider, too. I could imagine it to be good in the Leylinebuild (Though that's just speculating).
Titan was always good to me, but i don't understand why he doesnt splash red for Kessig Wolf Run the synergy between those two is just soo good. And using Titan without utility lands is wasted potencial if you ask me.
And when he keeps to monogreen, why does he play Utopia Sprawl and Fertile Ground as a 3/3 split and not 4 Sprawls? costing just one mana makes this card so good for this deck.
The single Karn seems nice, though.
*update*
Saw he plays Blood Moon in SB. So that's the reason for the 3/3 split. I still think splashing for red would be a good idea.
I believe the real combo of the deck is playing Garruck + Karn infinitely with Cloudstone and Nykthos + Forest and Enchantment,
Still trying the Remands and Oracles. Maybe I should just play the Remands as a Side-deck card and main 4 Visionaries. Still trying to figure out which is better, Oracle or Visionary. Obv Oracle is better but it seems that color is coming into account a lot so it might be best to play Visionaries.
Edit: I'm going to side the Remands because only really wanted for combo. Acolyte is something I've had in and off but there has been a bunch of times when I want it (because no Nykthos or to supplement it) and putting in Scrying is probably too much since its not free and takes up devotion space, especially when I can grab this with Pact.
I believe the real combo of the deck is playing Garruck + Karn infinitely with Cloudstone and Nykthos + Forest and Enchantment,
I made my own approach on a Genesis Wave Decklist.
First I tried out the Leylines, but for me they really didnt work well, just too inconsistent.
I understand the Cloudstone Curio Combo now, but I decided to try out Sarkhan Vol instead. When I get a huge Genesis Wave out he gives all of the creatures a nice +1/+1 for an final overrun. Stealing an opponents creature can be useful too and his ultimate is a nice clock when it I'm in a grindy game.
So here's the list:
With 4 Abundant Growth and the fetches i never had problems getting with the red splash and i think i would even do it if it only was for playing Kessig, that land is just such a good mana sink.
I got the advise to try out Bonfire of the Damned and i think it's at least a solid SB option.
I'm not as happy with the Elvish Visionarys as i thought i would be, Coiling Oracle just seems to be so much better.
So I think I'll try out a Gru list again.
At the moment i prefer the Genesis Wave over Tooth and Nail. I can Play the Wave as a for of, because I'm really always happy to see it, and having two in my Hand is most often even better.
Also i have less bad topdeck Cards (No Emrakul/Conscripts) but it's sad that the Wave synergizes so bad with Wolfbriarelemental, because that card would be really nice with Sarkhan.
Could you post your list Lectrys? I would be interested in seeing it (and adding to the OP). With this being such a new deck, I think it's a great idea to trade ideas, and specifically what does and doesn't work well from testing.
I just 3-1'ed a daily event with the Primal Command variant beating U/R twin, Scapeshift, Merfolk, and losing a close match to Willy Edel playing Junk. I may have 4-0'ed with it had I not miscounted a land when casting a primal command, and tutored the wrong card.
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Abundant Growth
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Tooth and Nail
2 Magus of the Candelabra
2 Arbor Elf
1 Wolfbriar Elemental
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Terastodon
1 Reverent Hunter
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Breeding Pool
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
8 Forest
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
The deck needs a little work. Things I've noticed - I never want to draw Terastodon. I think it may go into the sideboard. Wolfbriar isn't bad since with Leyline of Vitality, you get life and 2/3s. Reverent Hunter has always been quite the powerhouse when it comes down. However, I don't know what to cut to get there. Candelabra can get some pretty gnarly setups when you have Nykthos and Minamo in play for your Wolf Run.
Still, some tweaking advice would help.
I'll say add the 4th Garruk. I played 3 before, too. I thought i don't want to draw more than 1, but that turned out to be wrong. In my opinion he's the best 4 drop this deck can play. He pushes your ramp to a new level, protects himself (or you) if necessary and his ultimate can lead to a deathly attack with your otherwise late-game-useless BTE and mana dorks (not to mention how he synergizes with Wolfbriar). And thanks too the new legend rule it's not even bad to have two of them. If your Devotion is 6 or higher (or 5 or higher and you have an Utopia Sprawl out you can even chain them if you want to, to ramp even higher (had this situation once, chained 3 Garruks for a turn 3 Tooth and Nail. Since that Moment I'm convinced he deserves 4 spots:D).
How do you feel about the 4 Sylvan Scrying? I played 2 and even then felt them to be the worst card in my hand quite often. Now i play only 1 and that seems to be enough. But i play 2 Primeval Titans and lots of cantrips so maybe 4 is right for your deck.
Considering Nykthos is the most important card, I don't think it's questionable at all, especially if you add some other targets to search for such as Kessig Wolf Run, Tectonic Edge, or Minamo in the blue variant.
Maybe that's the exact thing I like about my brew, you don't desperately need Nykthos for ramping with Garruk+Utopia Sprawl and Primetime I'm able to hit the nine mana (that I need for T&N) quite often even without Nykthos.
I, who started splashing blue for Minamo, stopped playing it, because it was just not good enough in most cases (you need to have a really good boardstate for activating it if you want to untap Nykthos) and since i play Thrun only as a one of at the moment (giving 'Vigilance' with Minamo was kinda nice sometimes, when I needed to wait for another good draw) it' not worth the screw it can enable in (my) early turns.
That's my second point: With now seven mana dorks and all my cantrips i really need to have coloured mana in my early game. We already play a 4-of land that doesn't provide coloured mana in the early game, so i see only room for one other and that's Kessig Wolf Run.
Maybe if i play more lands, though. I think I'm gonna hav to test that too.
Anybody tried Bear Umbra?
With a more aggressive deck that still plays Utopia Sprawl it could be kinda nice. Maybe with an Enchantment/Aura subtheme and Verduran Enchantress for card draw?
Bear Umbra is great if you like getting 2 for 1'ed by lightning bolt. Anytime you include "could be" when evaluating a card, it's probably a bad idea to play it. You have to assume your opponent is going to have disruption for your strategies (they will), and the decks that don't have disruption will be faster (combo, burn, affinity, tron).
Same goes with Verduran enchantress. There is no point to playing this deck if your entire strategy gets wrecked by pyroclasm, lightning bolt, lightning helix, electrolyze, or any of the other easy kill options that almost every deck in the format plays.
This is why I stay away from burning-tree emissary even though in a vacuum, it's a pretty strong card for the deck. Strangleroot geist plays the same double green devotion role, but does it while being more difficult to remove, and thus take you off devotion. If I could, I would easily play wild growth in here over birds of paradise, but unfortunately, it's not modern legal, and you really want 8 1cmc mana enablers.
Overall, I'm not a fan of Tooth and Nail, as it's too inconsistent and too easy to disrupt. With that said, that's just me, so if it's doing well for you, by all means keep on with it.
I started off with your Primal Command list in the OP and modified it:
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Raging Ravine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Leatherback Baloth
2 Predator Ooze
2 Troll Ascetic
2 Eternal Witness
2 Wolfbriar Elemental
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Detritivore
1 Inferno Titan
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Primal Command
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Spellskite
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
3 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Slaughter Games
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Combust
I'm trying Polukranos in my version as a Game 1 out to Exarch Twin. The 3/3 Firespout/Wolfbriar split has turned into a 2/2/2 Wolfbriar/Garruk W/Polukranos split. After testing Polukranos, I likely want it as a 1-of instead of a 2-of--it's still often too slow against Twin, and Inferno Titan does the board wipe dude job better against Pod. Heck, Viridian Zealot might be the better Game 1 Twin out. (Yeah, I'm probably punting the Pod Game 1 with my current version.)
I replaced one Tec Edge with a Ghost Quarter because I like the extra security against Tron. ...The extra security has actually been pretty swell in testing--GQ hampers RG Tron faster, while some RG Tron draws can actually dodge Tec Edge.
Raging Ravine has been OK as a manland, and it's often my default Sylvan Scrying target after Nykthos. ETB'ing tapped is annoying, though. Sometimes, I wish I played Horizon Canopy as a land with a nonzero chance of increasing my devotion.
Since I took out Firespout, I tried the Hexproof Troll Ascetic, and costing 1GG instead of GGG has actually been pretty good--I get Nykthos/Wolf Run/an LD land and 2 green sources in my opening hand too often. Troll Ascetic is definitely worse in Firespout builds, though, and I'm tempted to go back to Firespout because Polukranos hasn't improved my Twin match-up enough.
Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze are sideboard Primal Command bullets for anti-Infect/Bogles/Twin/Reanimator/Melira Pod/Gifts goodness. I'm not entirely sure whether they're fast enough, though.
I've been disappointed by Detritivore against Twin and RG Tron--even when I slow them down with 8 zillion Primal Commands, I've only been able to set X = 1 at maximum so far. I'm sure it shines against control and likely Scapeshift, but I suspect I'd be happier with Acidic Slime maindeck.
I like troll, but I don't know if I love him. I do like that he can just about always be cast without needing 3g. I don't like playing less than 4 leatherback baloths since they provide a fast clock when you need it.
As for the RG tron matchup, there isn't a ton you can do about the T3 Karn, but that still doesn't encompass the majority of their draws. In the same light, if you get a t3 Primal command loop going against them, they're more or less boned as it'll set up a board state of 2 eternal witnesses and a Detritivore then preventing them from getting past 2-3 land.
For whatever it's worth, I usually don't try to cast Detritivore on the same turn I cast primal command, I'll usually just search it up and hold it until the following turn where I can suspend it for 2+. It's a little bit slow, but it's at least helped by the fact that you're timewalking your opponent with command as well.
It was funny, because in the daily event I played, I won 2-0 vs. twin with my list. I wasn't expecting this at all, but g1, he luckily didn't have the t4 combo after remanding one of my early plays. After that, I just set his draws back with the primal command loop. He didn't have any cantrips in hand, so he never drew the requisite twin to deal with the loop before dying. Tectonic edge was also huge here since it was able to keep him off double red & more importantly, kiki jiki mana. G2, I had an opening hand with 2 seal of primordium which more or less won the game for me. I still don't think it's a good matchup, but it's definitely winnable.
I ended up removing black from the deck since it was only particularly good for slaughter games against scapeshift. The thing is, is that scapeshift is a pretty easy matchup with the version I play, so slaughter games just isn't all that important. Just keep them off cryptic command mana via tectonic edge and focus on playing land destruction as you can and you should be able to win. I ended up switching out the slaughter games for 3x Boil, which was really powerful against scapeshift, but also was strong against twin, UWR control, and most blue decks that play any semblance of islands.
On another note, I picked up a Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I'm playing it as a singleton right now. I feel like 5 mana is kind of the "sweet spot" since you can reasonably cast most 5 mana cards t3-t4 with this deck. If they're bombs that work well with Nykthos, it only gets better, and I really like how Garruk can draw lots of cards off his -3.
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about firespout. So far, it's just been a very swingy, card, but I feel like I need it due to the prevalance of decks like Affinity & merfolk right now. It also can be a blowout against zoo. At the same point, I hate drawing it against most combo decks, and it's downright awful against control & combo. I don't like the idea of making the opponent's lightning bolts more relevant, but I've actually been considering playing 2-3 Ulvenwald trackers as pseudo removal that can also create devotion. It was a good card in standard "fight club" and this deck incidentally plays quite a few of the similar cards as that did.
*Double take*
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Breeding Pool
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Raging Ravine
6x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Stomping Ground
Ramp:
4x Abundant Growth
4x Utopia Sprawl
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Coiling Oracle
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
1x Wolfbriar Elemental
1x Thrun, the last Troll
2x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Zealous Conscripts
Spells:
3x Serum Visions
1x Sylvan Scrying
2x Summoner's Pact
2x Tooth and Nail
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Creeping Corrosion
1x Polukranos, World-Eater
2x Primal Command
3x Ground Seal
2x Acidic Slime
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Kitchen Finks
Lightning Bolt turned out be... hmm Lightning Bolt:D It's a really really good card that is versatile and damn cheap but to be honest I'd rather play something that synergyzes better with the deck (being able to spend about 10 mana for a spell and drawing a Lightning Bolt feels kinda bad. But right know i haven't found the card i would replace it with (I'm going to try out Comet Storm but I'm not quite sure if it's really the card i want to play. Still hoping for more good cards for this deck in the next Theros Releases:D)
I decided to go more the silverbullet route with 2 Summoner's Pact and Wolfbriar and Thrun only as 1-ofs (and Polukranos and Acidic Slime in SB). Maybe i should play Slime MB, too so i can do something against annoying artefacts and enchantments G1.
All in all the deck feels pretty solid at the moment, having 3 winconditions (Tessig, Garruks Ultimate, T&N) is really nice because I can adapt my playstyle to my opponents deck.
The MU against Affinity is much better with the Bolts and my 2 BoP that can atleast block an equipped evading attacker to give me some time.
Jund/Junk is quite possible although they're really tough G1 if they have a good hand, but with Ground Seal, Kitchen Finks and Obstinate Baloth out of the SB you're usually really good to go (playing more aggressive helps a lot here).
And I don't want to play more high cmc spells, because this deck already doesn't mulligan really well.
So what I look for would be something with cmc 1-3 that i can put pump some mana in after playing it and in the best case of course it also helps my devotion (and is kinda resilient).
I'm really open to ideas (you can find my decklist a few posts above by the way) and I'd really appreciate some help (I only found Unyaro Bees but they literally die to every creature removal there is)
So any ideas?
60 cards
16 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
20 lands
4 Arbor Elf
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Eternal Witness
4 Primeval Titan
20 creatures
3 Fertile Ground
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Genesis Wave
1 Karn Liberated
2 Primal Command
3 Utopia Sprawl
20 other spells
4 Beast Within
4 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
4 Fracturing Gust
This deck looks like it could win as early as turn 3-4?
Badd: Have you thought about Pithing Needle for Karn? Honestly when I'm against Tron he is the only card I ever fear.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Can anybody explain me the Cloudstone Curio? Is reusing visionaries, witnesses and Nykthos really good enough for playing a 3 drop that doesnt help you with your Devotion or is there synergy I can't see?
The approach with Genesis Wave seems to be something we should consider, too. I could imagine it to be good in the Leylinebuild (Though that's just speculating).
Titan was always good to me, but i don't understand why he doesnt splash red for Kessig Wolf Run the synergy between those two is just soo good. And using Titan without utility lands is wasted potencial if you ask me.
And when he keeps to monogreen, why does he play Utopia Sprawl and Fertile Ground as a 3/3 split and not 4 Sprawls? costing just one mana makes this card so good for this deck.
The single Karn seems nice, though.
*update*
Saw he plays Blood Moon in SB. So that's the reason for the 3/3 split. I still think splashing for red would be a good idea.
It's part of the combo turn that the deck does. It also allows you to basically play Witness then Witness then use your Command to send your opp back to the stone age. Or really any card for that matter. It seems a little loose but once you run it it makes sense. I prefer a Tooth and Nail approach but the Wave deck seems legit.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Im still not sure about Cloudstone Curio but I think I'm gonna take my own approach on a Genesis-Wave-Style-Deck. Maybe I'll understand when I play it.
Also I'm considering dropping blue and switching my Coiling Oracles with Elvish Visionaries. I can play them after an Emissary and most often when i really hoped for a land to topdeck with Oracle, I could have played it from my hand, too. I would need to find a replacement for the Serum Visions too, though, but I would be able to splash white or black instead.
After having some fun with my brew, I guess it's time to test what other approaches can and can not do now.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Coiling Oracle
3 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Primeval Titan
1 Zealous Consripts
1 Karametra's Acolyte
4 Abundant Growth
4 Ground Seal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Still trying the Remands and Oracles. Maybe I should just play the Remands as a Side-deck card and main 4 Visionaries. Still trying to figure out which is better, Oracle or Visionary. Obv Oracle is better but it seems that color is coming into account a lot so it might be best to play Visionaries.
Edit: I'm going to side the Remands because only really wanted for combo. Acolyte is something I've had in and off but there has been a bunch of times when I want it (because no Nykthos or to supplement it) and putting in Scrying is probably too much since its not free and takes up devotion space, especially when I can grab this with Pact.
I believe the real combo of the deck is playing Garruck + Karn infinitely with Cloudstone and Nykthos + Forest and Enchantment,
I made my own approach on a Genesis Wave Decklist.
First I tried out the Leylines, but for me they really didnt work well, just too inconsistent.
I understand the Cloudstone Curio Combo now, but I decided to try out Sarkhan Vol instead. When I get a huge Genesis Wave out he gives all of the creatures a nice +1/+1 for an final overrun. Stealing an opponents creature can be useful too and his ultimate is a nice clock when it I'm in a grindy game.
So here's the list:
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Stomping Ground
4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Sarkhan Vol
4 Genesis Wave
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Primeval Titan
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Eternal Witness
4 Arbor Elf
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Polukranos, World Eater
With 4 Abundant Growth and the fetches i never had problems getting with the red splash and i think i would even do it if it only was for playing Kessig, that land is just such a good mana sink.
I got the advise to try out Bonfire of the Damned and i think it's at least a solid SB option.
I'm not as happy with the Elvish Visionarys as i thought i would be, Coiling Oracle just seems to be so much better.
So I think I'll try out a Gru list again.
At the moment i prefer the Genesis Wave over Tooth and Nail. I can Play the Wave as a for of, because I'm really always happy to see it, and having two in my Hand is most often even better.
Also i have less bad topdeck Cards (No Emrakul/Conscripts) but it's sad that the Wave synergizes so bad with Wolfbriarelemental, because that card would be really nice with Sarkhan.