I actually bumped my number of Conclave to 2 recently, 3 seems good enough but for me it's pushing it.
Yeah, the alternate win con should be the main talk here. I knew Fatestsitcher was the biggest Surgical Extraction target but luckily for me it hasn't happened yet.
I'm going to say that for an alternate win con we Probably want 3 Pyro, 2 Mentor out of sideboard.
Constantly playing mind games with our opponent. We already know that any removal they have game 1 is pretty much useless and likely gets sided out games 2-3. If they side in grave hate maybe just siding out Stitchers and going wider is the plan. Keeps the fast pace and consistency together while throwing our opponent off the stitcher-combo aim.
Drawing more than one Conclave just feels bad, and hurts the manabase a lot. It just slows everything down. I used to run 4, now I also stick with 2. It makes our main game plan a lot more consistent.
Also, why would they side out creature removal? They can interact and disrupt our combo by killing a Fatesticher, so I don't know why that would be considered "dead" game 1. How do you play around creature removal, MyComboBestCombo?
Yeah drawing 2 is hurt, but having double chance of seeing it in a game is ideal. Second is always discard Fodder
Side out because we only have 4 targets in our deck. Yeah it completely fizzles the combo if stitcher gets hit but would they really want that many potential dead cards while we spin through the deck every turn?
Playing around removal and knowing the turn to combo off is probably the hardest part of the deck. Situational depending on your opponents colors and how much mana is up.
When they're tapped out, that's obviously #1 time to go off. If they've got red/white up I'd wait until I have at least some counter in hand.
I cannot stress how much dispels are needed to come in postboard.
Sometimes you've gotta just go for it too. Over evaluating a board state or what your opponent has in hand is the curse. Probe helps this problem too; Save one for the turn to combo off.
So im new to the Modern version of this deck, i put down the Ascendancy once it rotated from standard, but with standard being weird. etc, i felt the time was now to buy into modern.
So, i started with what i love, last week, i put together the pure combo version of this deck that Gerry or someone showed on SCG, and have been tweaking on it. Im liking what you guys are doing here, i have not got to play a single game against a modern deck with this deck, only standard decks, as my friends only play standard.
Let me start by saying, i absolutley am obssessed with combo decks, however, watching alot of results and matches and just having a somewhat decent idea of the current meta at my store, delver, burn and maybe some chord decks of sorts, not sure where i should start for that, friday night we have a modern fnm before the pre release and i want to go best prepared for those kinds of decks, i have access to remand, and all the cards you guys have showed in the lists above, should i start on a build like above for that meta? thoughts? This is my first dive into modern, i've ran a million mock games on just the combo version in the last couple weeks, but not against any of the above metnioed decks.
Thanks guys.
thoughts on which way i should slant the deck for that meta?
Burn is a rough matchup for this deck, although not as bad as the pure combo version, since we can kill Eidolon of the Great Revel much more easily. Delver isn't a great matchup either since they have counters and kill spells and can be fast. Chord decks are probably 50/50 or better in your favor, depending on what's in their maindeck. Personally having played both versions of the deck, I think this is the stronger version. In a meta like yours I might do -1 path, -1 bolt, +2 dispel in the maindeck, since it does work against all of those decks. You could also check out the Ascendancy Storm thread and see what they have to say about the pure combo version if you haven't tried there yet.
So I ended up not running ascendancy at FNM (took the wrong deck box with me). However, I did pull two Thing In The Ices from the prerelease, so I'm going to mess around with then and see how they might fit.
Burn is a rough matchup for this deck, although not as bad as the pure combo version, since we can kill Eidolon of the Great Revel much more easily. Delver isn't a great matchup either since they have counters and kill spells and can be fast. Chord decks are probably 50/50 or better in your favor, depending on what's in their maindeck. Personally having played both versions of the deck, I think this is the stronger version. In a meta like yours I might do -1 path, -1 bolt, +2 dispel in the maindeck, since it does work against all of those decks. You could also check out the Ascendancy Storm thread and see what they have to say about the pure combo version if you haven't tried there yet.
I don't think it really matters much to us. Might make control matchips a bit harder. But the earliest one of these should ever resolve is turn 5. We aim to kill no later than that. It's no good in this deck unless you want to sideboard into a hard control role, which I suppose could be worth exploring. It's prescence may push us to play more sideboard slots vs blue decks but I don't think it's going to make as big an impact on the format as everyone expects. I could be way off base in these assessments though.
So i've been experimenting decklist that hybridizes this deck and the 4-color ascendancy storm deck and I'd like some opinions. Basically there are 2 ways to build it:
It's possible that the Hierarchs should be Birds of Paradise to make the manabase a little smoother. The advantage of the Hierarchs is that they can attack for damage on their own, and the manabase might be able to be improved in other ways. Also, you may be able to go to 19 lands. The wish version gains some flexibility while still having real interaction, but Remand and Wish compete for your turn 2 play and wish can be a dead draw if you have no green source while going off. The non-wish version does a better control deck impression and the mana feels a bit smoother but it's still 1+ turns faster. It's hard to tell if the cons of the 4th color outweigh the pros of being able to go off faster without losing the ability to interact. Thoughts?
The point was that it was a hybrid of both lists. It retains the control elements of the basic uwr list but splashes a 4th color to get the speed gains of the wish-based list. I stated this right at the top of my post, which implied that I was well aware of that thread. If no one here is willing to consider the list, I will take it elsewhere.
Ummm...probably not. We are consistent, but hate shuts us down easy.
I think this can be pretty resilient. Run Sylvan Caryatid's instead of birds/hierarchs, put in 1 Thopter Foundry and 1 Sword of the Meek, run 2-3 Glittering Wish, 2 Muddle the Mixture, a butt-ton of 2 CMC effects main, and singleton multi-color answers/tools in the sideboard.
Here's my list in development. Might go down to 1 muddle, and add a 3rd wish, or something else, not sure yet. Erayo is probably not necessary unless you go more tempo with the deck:
The deck very rarely fizzles out with this setup, and is resilient enough to last till it needs to go off. Turn 2 win is very rarely possible with Turn 1 land, spirit guide, Caryatid into Turn 2 ascendancy, git probe. Turn 3 is possible with the same, minus the spirit guide.
Fatestitchers are obvious. Pitch them to ascendancy every time you can. Caryatid's are great because they dodge removal, and also don't die to any 2 cmc sweepers that I know of.
Muddles let you find a boatload of 2 CMC's in your deck, which also includes Glittering Wish, or a Caryatid if you really need a mana dork. Scarscale Ritual is handy to refill the hand while comboing off. Usually if you can get an Ascendancy on the board with a mana dork, as long as you have something in hand, you can usually combo out fairly reliably.
If you're comboing off, you're *probably* going to keep going through your whole deck, and will find the Mass Hysteria, make a butt-ton of hasty thopters, and win that turn. If you need you can also Wish for a Temur Ascendancy.
I lost only 2 games out of 10 played, beating a 4-color Rally deck, Mono-white Enchantment Prison, RG Eldrazi with Traverse the Ulvenwald, and Burn.
R1 vs Rally (2-0)
This was a pretty basic aristocrats style deck, with Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, and Mirror Entity, which seemed dope. Game 1 we traded disruption until I peeled an Ascendancy off the top with a Hierarch out, and that was game. I sideboarded in the countermagic. Game 2 I got the nut draw and he tapped out turn 2 on the play (probably a mistake), so I just comboed him out on my turn 2.
R2 vs Prison (2-1)
The matchup is pretty bad, maybe 70-30 in their favor, and game 1 was a massacre. Turn 0 Leyline, Path my Hierarch, Rest In Peace, Suppression Field, then Ghostly Prison. I poke at him with Hierarch and later a Conclave and Remanded some enchantments, but another ghostly prison resolves to seal the deal. We went to game 2 and I brought in Spell Pierce and Wear//Tear instead of Paths and some Bolts, since both are almost completely dead. Game 2 he got stuck on 2 lands, and even though one of my Hierarchs bit the dust, I had one to follow it up and comboed out while he was stuck on mana. Game 3 I got a hand with Hierarch, Ascendancy, Ideas unbound, 2 Wear//Tear, and 2 lands. KEEP. Turn 2 Ascendancy, he plays Suppression Field, and on turn 3 I Tear his Rest In Peace, pitch a fatestitcher, Tear the Suppression Field, and have enough gas left to combo out.
R3 vs RG Eldrazi + Traverse the Ulvenwald (2-0)
Neat brew. Traverse helps fix mana early and can grab Wastes for casting Eldrazi. If Delerium is Achieved, it can grab fatty boom-booms and silver bullets.
Game 1 was uninteresting. I made my land drops, he played a Goyf, I pathed it. I dropped an Ascendancy, got a Fatestitcher in the yard, and comboed. I had to use Thought Scours to pump my stitcher in response to a Bolt, but otherwise it was a typical combo turn. Game 2 I brought in the creature plan, but left 3 Fatestitcher and 3 Ascendancy. My opener had Hierarch, Young P, and Ascendancy. He Bolted the YP, and I started my combo turn 3. He scooped when I played a second Ascendancy and showed him a hand with a pair of Ideas Unbound.
R4 vs Burn (2-1)
Another crappy matchup. Game 1 I got #rekt. Total Massacre. Game 2 I brought in the countermagic, and was at 3 life before I assembled the combo. My opponent had 2 mana up, and since I was dead to any spell anyway I paid 2 life for a probe only to see a hand full of land. Off we go. Game 3 was interesting. He had a sluggish start and was stuck on 1 land for a while, and I had a ton of interaction. Eventually I got 2 Fatestitchers down, and used them to tap his lands in his upkeep to keep him off sorcery speed spells while poking him with a Hierarch. The plan worked and I survived just long enough to rip an Ascendancy off the top, and it took just 2 triggers to make the team big enough to hit for lethal.
I got a little lucky with winning some of the bad matchups, and most of the decks weren't established top tier decks, but the list shows a ton of promise. Having the Hierarchs was a HUGE help in many games. They let me go off more quickly and more easily take advantage of openings my opponents gave me. The deck still packs a lot of interaction and can play a control game if needed. I liked the man plan in the sideboard as a concept, but never really got to use it. I figure it would be good against midrangey decks and control decks that might board out sweepers. The Grim Lavamancers should really be something else though, probably Geist of St. Traft, but I couldn't find any. I did find myself wanting a basic forest in the burn matchup, so i could preserve my life total. Might be worth having in the board, but probably not in the main. I played only 3 Bolts to squeeze in the 20th land (Path, as unconditional removal, is better here), but in retrospect I think 20 lands might be 1 too many, and were I to play this list again I would probably cut City of Brass for the 4th Bolt or another Sleight of Hand.
Your post got me thinking that this thread could probably use a decent primer. It's had a dozen pages of significant development and the OP is from when dig through time was legal. I could try to do this if it was something people would like to see, but I've never done one before and I'm not sure I'd be considered qualified.
Ummm...probably not. We are consistent, but hate shuts us down easy.
What hate shuts us down easily? Rule of Law? Wish for a response. Leyline of Sanctity? So what, run my version and you have singleton thopter/sword, or just Detention Sphere away the leyline. Run Caryatids and no other mana dorks (seriously, 4 caryatids and 4 fatestitchers is more than enough with all the cantrips).
This deck is ridiculously resilient, more than interactive enough, and has very few dead cards. It threatens from multiple angles (thopter/sword, or an Aurelia's Fury to the face), and is very difficult for them to disrupt. Caryatids don't die unless you're playing against a very serious control deck that can sweep. Pyroclasm does nothing to this deck because rarely will you hard cast your fatestitchers. And, if you do hard cast them, they're handy squishy little icy manipulators that don't cost mana to activate.
Your post got me thinking that this thread could probably use a decent primer. It's had a dozen pages of significant development and the OP is from when dig through time was legal. I could try to do this if it was something people would like to see, but I've never done one before and I'm not sure I'd be considered qualified.
I wouldn't mind writing a new primer for this or the storm thread. Not sure which one exactly it falls under, mine is very combo-based as all ascendancy lists are, but also very interactive in the mainboard, and has plenty of answers in the sideboard.
Yeah drawing 2 is hurt, but having double chance of seeing it in a game is ideal. Second is always discard Fodder
Side out because we only have 4 targets in our deck. Yeah it completely fizzles the combo if stitcher gets hit but would they really want that many potential dead cards while we spin through the deck every turn?
Playing around removal and knowing the turn to combo off is probably the hardest part of the deck. Situational depending on your opponents colors and how much mana is up.
When they're tapped out, that's obviously #1 time to go off. If they've got red/white up I'd wait until I have at least some counter in hand.
I cannot stress how much dispels are needed to come in postboard.
Sometimes you've gotta just go for it too. Over evaluating a board state or what your opponent has in hand is the curse. Probe helps this problem too; Save one for the turn to combo off.
So, i started with what i love, last week, i put together the pure combo version of this deck that Gerry or someone showed on SCG, and have been tweaking on it. Im liking what you guys are doing here, i have not got to play a single game against a modern deck with this deck, only standard decks, as my friends only play standard.
Let me start by saying, i absolutley am obssessed with combo decks, however, watching alot of results and matches and just having a somewhat decent idea of the current meta at my store, delver, burn and maybe some chord decks of sorts, not sure where i should start for that, friday night we have a modern fnm before the pre release and i want to go best prepared for those kinds of decks, i have access to remand, and all the cards you guys have showed in the lists above, should i start on a build like above for that meta? thoughts? This is my first dive into modern, i've ran a million mock games on just the combo version in the last couple weeks, but not against any of the above metnioed decks.
Thanks guys.
thoughts on which way i should slant the deck for that meta?
Thank you sir, appreciate your insight.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Ummm...probably not. We are consistent, but hate shuts us down easy.
Green splash just for a set of 1-mana dorks:
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Noble Hierarch
Interaction
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
1 Sleight of Hand
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mana Confluence
2 Faerie Conclave
Or 1-mana dorks and wishes:
3 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Glittering Wish
Interaction
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mana Confluence
2 Faerie Conclave
3 Wear//Tear
3 Silence
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Flesh//Blood
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
It's possible that the Hierarchs should be Birds of Paradise to make the manabase a little smoother. The advantage of the Hierarchs is that they can attack for damage on their own, and the manabase might be able to be improved in other ways. Also, you may be able to go to 19 lands. The wish version gains some flexibility while still having real interaction, but Remand and Wish compete for your turn 2 play and wish can be a dead draw if you have no green source while going off. The non-wish version does a better control deck impression and the mana feels a bit smoother but it's still 1+ turns faster. It's hard to tell if the cons of the 4th color outweigh the pros of being able to go off faster without losing the ability to interact. Thoughts?
I think this can be pretty resilient. Run Sylvan Caryatid's instead of birds/hierarchs, put in 1 Thopter Foundry and 1 Sword of the Meek, run 2-3 Glittering Wish, 2 Muddle the Mixture, a butt-ton of 2 CMC effects main, and singleton multi-color answers/tools in the sideboard.
Here's my list in development. Might go down to 1 muddle, and add a 3rd wish, or something else, not sure yet. Erayo is probably not necessary unless you go more tempo with the deck:
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
3 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Mass Hysteria
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Glittering Wish
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Manamorphose
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Dispel
2 Remand
1 Izzet Charm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Plains
1 Overgrown Tomb
Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Flesh // Blood
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Wear // Tear
1 Temur Ascendancy
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Path to Exile
1 Lightning Helix
1 Terminate
1 Dispel
1 Remand
The deck very rarely fizzles out with this setup, and is resilient enough to last till it needs to go off. Turn 2 win is very rarely possible with Turn 1 land, spirit guide, Caryatid into Turn 2 ascendancy, git probe. Turn 3 is possible with the same, minus the spirit guide.
Fatestitchers are obvious. Pitch them to ascendancy every time you can. Caryatid's are great because they dodge removal, and also don't die to any 2 cmc sweepers that I know of.
Muddles let you find a boatload of 2 CMC's in your deck, which also includes Glittering Wish, or a Caryatid if you really need a mana dork. Scarscale Ritual is handy to refill the hand while comboing off. Usually if you can get an Ascendancy on the board with a mana dork, as long as you have something in hand, you can usually combo out fairly reliably.
If you're comboing off, you're *probably* going to keep going through your whole deck, and will find the Mass Hysteria, make a butt-ton of hasty thopters, and win that turn. If you need you can also Wish for a Temur Ascendancy.
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Fatestitcher
4 Noble Hierarch
Interaction
4 Remand
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
Cantrips
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
3 Ideas Unbound
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Plains
1 Island
1 City of Brass
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Dispel
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wear//Tear
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Grim Lavamancer
I lost only 2 games out of 10 played, beating a 4-color Rally deck, Mono-white Enchantment Prison, RG Eldrazi with Traverse the Ulvenwald, and Burn.
R1 vs Rally (2-0)
This was a pretty basic aristocrats style deck, with Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, and Mirror Entity, which seemed dope. Game 1 we traded disruption until I peeled an Ascendancy off the top with a Hierarch out, and that was game. I sideboarded in the countermagic. Game 2 I got the nut draw and he tapped out turn 2 on the play (probably a mistake), so I just comboed him out on my turn 2.
R2 vs Prison (2-1)
The matchup is pretty bad, maybe 70-30 in their favor, and game 1 was a massacre. Turn 0 Leyline, Path my Hierarch, Rest In Peace, Suppression Field, then Ghostly Prison. I poke at him with Hierarch and later a Conclave and Remanded some enchantments, but another ghostly prison resolves to seal the deal. We went to game 2 and I brought in Spell Pierce and Wear//Tear instead of Paths and some Bolts, since both are almost completely dead. Game 2 he got stuck on 2 lands, and even though one of my Hierarchs bit the dust, I had one to follow it up and comboed out while he was stuck on mana. Game 3 I got a hand with Hierarch, Ascendancy, Ideas unbound, 2 Wear//Tear, and 2 lands. KEEP. Turn 2 Ascendancy, he plays Suppression Field, and on turn 3 I Tear his Rest In Peace, pitch a fatestitcher, Tear the Suppression Field, and have enough gas left to combo out.
R3 vs RG Eldrazi + Traverse the Ulvenwald (2-0)
Neat brew. Traverse helps fix mana early and can grab Wastes for casting Eldrazi. If Delerium is Achieved, it can grab fatty boom-booms and silver bullets.
Game 1 was uninteresting. I made my land drops, he played a Goyf, I pathed it. I dropped an Ascendancy, got a Fatestitcher in the yard, and comboed. I had to use Thought Scours to pump my stitcher in response to a Bolt, but otherwise it was a typical combo turn. Game 2 I brought in the creature plan, but left 3 Fatestitcher and 3 Ascendancy. My opener had Hierarch, Young P, and Ascendancy. He Bolted the YP, and I started my combo turn 3. He scooped when I played a second Ascendancy and showed him a hand with a pair of Ideas Unbound.
R4 vs Burn (2-1)
Another crappy matchup. Game 1 I got #rekt. Total Massacre. Game 2 I brought in the countermagic, and was at 3 life before I assembled the combo. My opponent had 2 mana up, and since I was dead to any spell anyway I paid 2 life for a probe only to see a hand full of land. Off we go. Game 3 was interesting. He had a sluggish start and was stuck on 1 land for a while, and I had a ton of interaction. Eventually I got 2 Fatestitchers down, and used them to tap his lands in his upkeep to keep him off sorcery speed spells while poking him with a Hierarch. The plan worked and I survived just long enough to rip an Ascendancy off the top, and it took just 2 triggers to make the team big enough to hit for lethal.
I got a little lucky with winning some of the bad matchups, and most of the decks weren't established top tier decks, but the list shows a ton of promise. Having the Hierarchs was a HUGE help in many games. They let me go off more quickly and more easily take advantage of openings my opponents gave me. The deck still packs a lot of interaction and can play a control game if needed. I liked the man plan in the sideboard as a concept, but never really got to use it. I figure it would be good against midrangey decks and control decks that might board out sweepers. The Grim Lavamancers should really be something else though, probably Geist of St. Traft, but I couldn't find any. I did find myself wanting a basic forest in the burn matchup, so i could preserve my life total. Might be worth having in the board, but probably not in the main. I played only 3 Bolts to squeeze in the 20th land (Path, as unconditional removal, is better here), but in retrospect I think 20 lands might be 1 too many, and were I to play this list again I would probably cut City of Brass for the 4th Bolt or another Sleight of Hand.
What hate shuts us down easily? Rule of Law? Wish for a response. Leyline of Sanctity? So what, run my version and you have singleton thopter/sword, or just Detention Sphere away the leyline. Run Caryatids and no other mana dorks (seriously, 4 caryatids and 4 fatestitchers is more than enough with all the cantrips).
4 Fatestitcher
3 Jeskai Ascendancy
2 Glittering Wish
2 Muddle the Mixture
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Conjurer's Bauble
2 Ideas Unbound
2 Manamorphose
1 Mind Spring
1 Tormenting Voice
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Charm
1 Gut Shot
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Scarscale Ritual
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Wear // Tear
1 Temur Ascendancy
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Pyroclasm
1 Aurelia's Fury
1 Swan Song
2 Dispel
1 Detention Sphere
This deck is ridiculously resilient, more than interactive enough, and has very few dead cards. It threatens from multiple angles (thopter/sword, or an Aurelia's Fury to the face), and is very difficult for them to disrupt. Caryatids don't die unless you're playing against a very serious control deck that can sweep. Pyroclasm does nothing to this deck because rarely will you hard cast your fatestitchers. And, if you do hard cast them, they're handy squishy little icy manipulators that don't cost mana to activate.
I wouldn't mind writing a new primer for this or the storm thread. Not sure which one exactly it falls under, mine is very combo-based as all ascendancy lists are, but also very interactive in the mainboard, and has plenty of answers in the sideboard.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/689978-jeskai-ascension