Hey all, thinking about building Ascendancy. I've seen it 4-color with Glittering Wish and then regular 3 color. Could someone explain the cost/benefits of each version?
This thread is to discuss control versions, while the other is for the all-in combo versions. Combo focused decks are faster and don't fizzle (that often) when you try to go off, while the advantage of control versions was having a three-color mana base and being able to interact with potentially faster decks. The main problem of the control decks is that without Dig Through Time they don't have any spell capable of refilling their hand the combo turn, while all-in combo decks still can use Ideas Unbound and wish for Scarscale Ritual. A few posts back I proposed Life from the Loam with Flame Jab as a way to refill your hand in the control version, but you would lose the advantage of playing only three colors. Pyromancer Ascension is an engine I'm actually using in my all-in version of the deck, and I still think that card works better with Manamorphose and Ideas Unbound than with Remand and Path to Exile, but this deck still keeps the advantages the control version could have ever had over the all-in version and tries to mitigate the loss of Dig Through Time without altering the deck too much.
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Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
I've been a modern ascendancy nut for a while and have been reading this thread for a long time. Finally decided to make an account and post my experience with the deck and decklists, as well I hope to gain a much more collective thought process on the perfect decklist.
I'll start off by saying for my personal play type I feel the "cycle/ control" is the most consistent version. Having mana up for responses and cantrips just seems to be the way to go. That being said with Eldrazi being easily #1 deck right now, this archetype doesn't have THAT bad of a match up. Seems 4 Path to Exile is undeniable now, especially since they usually run 2 basics. This deck is highly based off 1 mana spells so a possible main deck Forked Bolt or Dismember isn't that bad.
I see Ideas Unbound being thrown around a lot. I'm iffy on it. I could see a possible 1 of main deck but Thought Scour + Visions is still the way to go for me. Top 16 at GP Bologna had Pyro Ascension version which is pretty interesting, but again I'm iffy on it.
Looking to make the best decklist possible given the current meta. Band together my brothers, share thoughts on lists and matchups.
I'll be posting my decklist that I've been running for a while but after this weeks tournament with my changes given the meta.
I have also played with both versions of the deck and found this version to be better. Real interaction and consistency justifies it being a turn slower on average.
I've tried alternate wincons in the main in place of Remand which I didn't really like in my meta, but in the end I dropped them. Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor is decent from the board for grindy matchups and I may go back if the meta shifts. As for Ideas Unbound, I think it's better than Visions of Beyond. It's too hard to get max value from Visions, especially g2 and g3 when people often bring I grave hate. I still play Thought Scour though, because the deck wants to get multiple Fatestitchers going ASAP. Izzet Charm fills multiple roles and is worth 2 slots.
You have inspired me, brother MyComboBestCombo! I've been playing Ascendancy since the world championships, and even with cruise and dig, I didn't find much success. So I haven't played my deck in a while, but I'm going to put it back together and do some more testing to get this thing figured out. I just ordered some Pyromancer Ascensions, and I'll post my findings with how it plays in about a week or so.
Also, Thing in the Ice excites me as a possible card for this deck, as it provides defense and an alternate wincon in one card. What do you guys think?
Here's my sacred decklist, give me your thoughts on it. Like I said earlier, I'm huge on leaving mana up - if I'm opting to cycle it's on opponent's EP. In terms of the shell I consider it ideal for my play style. I'm always looking to keep my opponent guessing, not a fan of tapping out for a cycle.
In my testing Ideas Unbound proved to be great. I'll likely add another for -1 Thirst. 3 Remand seems ideal for me at this time. 20 Lands, half of them fetches, possibly is too much but gets the deck thin enough. One of conclave gives the chance for the niche combo "mana creature." My one of flashback spells haven't proven to be the worst but that's what I'd tweak if I had to.
As for sideboard I'd like everyone to contribute. But as of right now 3 Young Pyromancer are staple in my books. My sideboard is pretty standard besides that.
Thing in the Ice seems great in this shell, but seems to lack something. To me it screams Snapcaster Mage but only testing will tell.
I personally don't like Ideas Unbound, but if it works for you, hey, more power to ya. I think the problem with my old list was that I was running conclave as a 4 of, which really hurt my mana base. Seeing two in a game just hurts a lot of tempo, so I think I'm going to cut them down to a 1 or 2 of.
Ok, so I've done a decent amount of testing, and I think I like Pyromancer Ascension. Since we don't have a spell that efficiently replaces Treasure Cruise, Ascension interacts well with our cantrips by making sure we have enough cards in hand so we don't brick. Which I like. Plus, it makes our value cards such as Path and Bolt that much better, so even our interaction gets a boost.
Here's the problem with the deck. It folds to pretty much any kind of hate. Graveyard hate? Check. Creature removal? Check. Enchantment removal? Check. Hand disruption? Actually, we're pretty resilient to that unless we have an already iffy hand. The point is, even though the deck is pretty consistent when they don't interact with our stuff, and we have more interaction with our opponent than, say, storm, we die to a lot of things. I think the deck needs another out, not just in the sideboard.
That being said, I still love the deck, and will continue to play it though my friends scoff at its jankiness.
Hello, someone could explain me the sideboard plan? I have some difficult to find what side out in some matchup, expecially when i have to find place for the pyro+mentor plan.
Thanks very much
It depends on the match. Remand can be sided out against aggressive decks to make room for Young Pyromancer/Monastery Mentor. Side out removal against creature-light decks. If you can't find anything you want to cut, cutting some cantrips isn't the worst thing in the world, just know that you will lose some consistency in the combo. Heck, you could even side out your Fatestichers if you really wanted.
Manamorphose is really only good when you're comboing off, and the plus 1 mana isn't that important. Plus 3 Mana with ascension is just overkill. It seems unlikely that manamorphose could help you cast ascendancy, since if that happens it means you fetched wrong. I don't think it has a place in this deck.
Does anyone have good data on pyromancer ascension in this deck? The list that played it obviously did well at the gp, but if it's only use is as a complimentary engine/anti fizzle tech, it seems like it's taking up space.
Manamorphose is really only good when you're comboing off, and the plus 1 mana isn't that important. Plus 3 Mana with ascension is just overkill. It seems unlikely that manamorphose could help you cast ascendancy, since if that happens it means you fetched wrong. I don't think it has a place in this deck.
Does anyone have good data on pyromancer ascension in this deck? The list that played it obviously did well at the gp, but if it's only use is as a complimentary engine/anti fizzle tech, it seems like it's taking up space.
All I can give you is my personal data, and I'll hopefully have some more after FNM, but I like it so far. It's not too difficult to set it up, and it gives so much value to your cantrips. I understand some people not running it, but I've also seen some MTGO lists run Pyromancer Ascension with decent results. Go look at MtgTop8 if you want to see the lists.
I was thinking about the fact that the decks folds to creature removal like hylanhero said and thought about leyline of anticipation in place of the pyro ascensions in order to be able to chain the cantrips in response to lets say a path to exile and get a remand to answer it.
Still seems too slow if you don't play it turn 1, and is a dead card when comboing off. Go ahead and give it a try, though. Testing and discovering new things is what makes this game fun.
Took the deck to my weekly local modern event, went 3-1. Beat Naya Kiki chord (2-1), a 4c Rally brew (2-0), and affinity (2-0), and lost to grixis delver (0-2). The deck felt good against everything exept delver, and I think I made some poor sideboarding choices there.
Points of interest in each match:
R1 vs naya chord combo (2-0):
Game 1 I managed to plow through chorded-in Spellskite and reclamation sage. G3 I won with Faerie Conclave beating for 16 points of damge after supreme verdict blew him out and I was able to 1-for-1 the rest of his threats and counter removal.
R2 vs 4c rally (2-0)
Interesting deck, used greater gargadon and mirror entity as sac outlets. Both are scary cards in the deck. G1 I probe on my combo turn and see 2x PtE, and 1 Grab the Reins! Using thought scour to mill in response to path, I am able to get enough Fatestitchers in the yard to beat both paths, and then draw a Remand to counter the grab the reins. Crazy stuff. G2 i actually won through pithing needle on fatestitcher by hardcasting 2 fatestitchers and attacking with them.
R3 vs affinity (2-0)
Not much notable here except that I win g2 at 1 life. It's just a race and our removal makes it very winnable. I consider this a favorable matchup.
R4 vs Grixis Delver (0-2)
Never saw ascendancy the first game, and for g2 I sideboarded questionably, bringing in my unwieldy board wipes and a lot of counter magic, and dropping Sleight of hand, a couple remands, and anticipate, 1 fatestitcher and 1 ascendancy. In hindsight, I think the way to beat this deck is with speed, and I probably wanted only the 2 dispel, maybe 1 anger of the gods.
I think the deck plays pretty well and can legitimately play a control role if needed. Tempo decks seem like a weak matchup, but not too bad, maybe 40/60 at worst. I think the board wipes in the board felt bad, even though I got a blowout with verdict. Too mana intensive and slow, and they disrupted my ability to advance my combo. I'll probably swap them for an alternate wincon like mentor or young pyromancer next time I play the deck.
Here's the problem with the deck. It folds to pretty much any kind of hate. Graveyard hate? Check. Creature removal? Check. Enchantment removal? Check. Hand disruption? Actually, we're pretty resilient to that unless we have an already iffy hand. The point is, even though the deck is pretty consistent when they don't interact with our stuff, and we have more interaction with our opponent than, say, storm, we die to a lot of things. I think the deck needs another out, not just in the sideboard.
That being said, I still love the deck, and will continue to play it though my friends scoff at its jankiness.
Well said, my thoughts exactly. In my testing the deck is more resilient than what you give credit for. My buds laugh when I show up with it too, but being such a wild card it steals matches like no other. For me it's either this or go back to Scapeshift which I just prefer running U/W/r colors.
Manamorphose just seems unnessesary. A 2 mana dig for 1, not my style.
As for d8dk32, the delver matchup is pretty up in the air. Probably the fastest deck that can go on par with us mana wise. I would keep in all the speed and only worry about the counter battle. If I felt they sided out removal, I'd throw in Young Pyro, Try to go even wider and more mana efficient with Dispels and Spell Pierce. Probably 1 Anger otherwise.
As do I. If we have enough people trying to crack this, I'm sure we can figure something out.
As for the hate problem, I've just had too many games where I don't side in YP or another alternate wincon, then my opponent promptly surgically extracts the first Fatesticher I dump in my yard. It's frustrating, cause we can draw all the cards in the world, but we have to win off of conclaves after that.
I really think the people cutting Faerie Conclave down to just 1 should rethink. It adds consistency as mana dorks 5-8 and adds a viable, if weak, backup beatdown plan. My last list played only 3 and i'm considering going back to 4. Reliably having a creature to combo off with is extremely important and I find it rarely hinders my mana. Play at least 3.
I actually bumped my number of Conclave to 2 recently, 3 seems good enough but for me it's pushing it.
Yeah, the alternate win con should be the main talk here. I knew Fatestsitcher was the biggest Surgical Extraction target but luckily for me it hasn't happened yet.
I'm going to say that for an alternate win con we Probably want 3 Pyro, 2 Mentor out of sideboard.
Constantly playing mind games with our opponent. We already know that any removal they have game 1 is pretty much useless and likely gets sided out games 2-3. If they side in grave hate maybe just siding out Stitchers and going wider is the plan. Keeps the fast pace and consistency together while throwing our opponent off the stitcher-combo aim.
I thought of the idea using Crypyolith Rites and Bogles to make the creatures less susceptible to removal? Probably doesn't make the deck any better but I've had fun messing with it
I actually bumped my number of Conclave to 2 recently, 3 seems good enough but for me it's pushing it.
Yeah, the alternate win con should be the main talk here. I knew Fatestsitcher was the biggest Surgical Extraction target but luckily for me it hasn't happened yet.
I'm going to say that for an alternate win con we Probably want 3 Pyro, 2 Mentor out of sideboard.
Constantly playing mind games with our opponent. We already know that any removal they have game 1 is pretty much useless and likely gets sided out games 2-3. If they side in grave hate maybe just siding out Stitchers and going wider is the plan. Keeps the fast pace and consistency together while throwing our opponent off the stitcher-combo aim.
Drawing more than one Conclave just feels bad, and hurts the manabase a lot. It just slows everything down. I used to run 4, now I also stick with 2. It makes our main game plan a lot more consistent.
Also, why would they side out creature removal? They can interact and disrupt our combo by killing a Fatesticher, so I don't know why that would be considered "dead" game 1. How do you play around creature removal, MyComboBestCombo?
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Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
I'm just tired of all the bs in modern and want to sleeve something up that is genuinely fun.
I'll start off by saying for my personal play type I feel the "cycle/ control" is the most consistent version. Having mana up for responses and cantrips just seems to be the way to go. That being said with Eldrazi being easily #1 deck right now, this archetype doesn't have THAT bad of a match up. Seems 4 Path to Exile is undeniable now, especially since they usually run 2 basics. This deck is highly based off 1 mana spells so a possible main deck Forked Bolt or Dismember isn't that bad.
I see Ideas Unbound being thrown around a lot. I'm iffy on it. I could see a possible 1 of main deck but Thought Scour + Visions is still the way to go for me. Top 16 at GP Bologna had Pyro Ascension version which is pretty interesting, but again I'm iffy on it.
Looking to make the best decklist possible given the current meta. Band together my brothers, share thoughts on lists and matchups.
I'll be posting my decklist that I've been running for a while but after this weeks tournament with my changes given the meta.
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Fatestitcher
Interaction
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
3 Sleight of Hand
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Wear//Tear
2 Flame Slash
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
2 Negate
2 Flex Slots
I've tried alternate wincons in the main in place of Remand which I didn't really like in my meta, but in the end I dropped them. Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor is decent from the board for grindy matchups and I may go back if the meta shifts. As for Ideas Unbound, I think it's better than Visions of Beyond. It's too hard to get max value from Visions, especially g2 and g3 when people often bring I grave hate. I still play Thought Scour though, because the deck wants to get multiple Fatestitchers going ASAP. Izzet Charm fills multiple roles and is worth 2 slots.
Also, Thing in the Ice excites me as a possible card for this deck, as it provides defense and an alternate wincon in one card. What do you guys think?
4 Fatestitcher
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Thought Scour
3 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Visions of Beyond
1 Think Twice
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Faithless Looting
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
1 Faerie Conclave
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
In my testing Ideas Unbound proved to be great. I'll likely add another for -1 Thirst. 3 Remand seems ideal for me at this time. 20 Lands, half of them fetches, possibly is too much but gets the deck thin enough. One of conclave gives the chance for the niche combo "mana creature." My one of flashback spells haven't proven to be the worst but that's what I'd tweak if I had to.
As for sideboard I'd like everyone to contribute. But as of right now 3 Young Pyromancer are staple in my books. My sideboard is pretty standard besides that.
Thing in the Ice seems great in this shell, but seems to lack something. To me it screams Snapcaster Mage but only testing will tell.
Thanks for sharing!
Here's the problem with the deck. It folds to pretty much any kind of hate. Graveyard hate? Check. Creature removal? Check. Enchantment removal? Check. Hand disruption? Actually, we're pretty resilient to that unless we have an already iffy hand. The point is, even though the deck is pretty consistent when they don't interact with our stuff, and we have more interaction with our opponent than, say, storm, we die to a lot of things. I think the deck needs another out, not just in the sideboard.
That being said, I still love the deck, and will continue to play it though my friends scoff at its jankiness.
It depends on the match. Remand can be sided out against aggressive decks to make room for Young Pyromancer/Monastery Mentor. Side out removal against creature-light decks. If you can't find anything you want to cut, cutting some cantrips isn't the worst thing in the world, just know that you will lose some consistency in the combo. Heck, you could even side out your Fatestichers if you really wanted.
Does anyone have good data on pyromancer ascension in this deck? The list that played it obviously did well at the gp, but if it's only use is as a complimentary engine/anti fizzle tech, it seems like it's taking up space.
All I can give you is my personal data, and I'll hopefully have some more after FNM, but I like it so far. It's not too difficult to set it up, and it gives so much value to your cantrips. I understand some people not running it, but I've also seen some MTGO lists run Pyromancer Ascension with decent results. Go look at MtgTop8 if you want to see the lists.
Still seems too slow if you don't play it turn 1, and is a dead card when comboing off. Go ahead and give it a try, though. Testing and discovering new things is what makes this game fun.
The list:
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Fatestitcher
Interaction
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Ideas Unbound
1 Anticipate
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Wear//Tear
2 Flame Slash
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
Points of interest in each match:
R1 vs naya chord combo (2-0):
Game 1 I managed to plow through chorded-in Spellskite and reclamation sage. G3 I won with Faerie Conclave beating for 16 points of damge after supreme verdict blew him out and I was able to 1-for-1 the rest of his threats and counter removal.
R2 vs 4c rally (2-0)
Interesting deck, used greater gargadon and mirror entity as sac outlets. Both are scary cards in the deck. G1 I probe on my combo turn and see 2x PtE, and 1 Grab the Reins! Using thought scour to mill in response to path, I am able to get enough Fatestitchers in the yard to beat both paths, and then draw a Remand to counter the grab the reins. Crazy stuff. G2 i actually won through pithing needle on fatestitcher by hardcasting 2 fatestitchers and attacking with them.
R3 vs affinity (2-0)
Not much notable here except that I win g2 at 1 life. It's just a race and our removal makes it very winnable. I consider this a favorable matchup.
R4 vs Grixis Delver (0-2)
Never saw ascendancy the first game, and for g2 I sideboarded questionably, bringing in my unwieldy board wipes and a lot of counter magic, and dropping Sleight of hand, a couple remands, and anticipate, 1 fatestitcher and 1 ascendancy. In hindsight, I think the way to beat this deck is with speed, and I probably wanted only the 2 dispel, maybe 1 anger of the gods.
I think the deck plays pretty well and can legitimately play a control role if needed. Tempo decks seem like a weak matchup, but not too bad, maybe 40/60 at worst. I think the board wipes in the board felt bad, even though I got a blowout with verdict. Too mana intensive and slow, and they disrupted my ability to advance my combo. I'll probably swap them for an alternate wincon like mentor or young pyromancer next time I play the deck.
Well said, my thoughts exactly. In my testing the deck is more resilient than what you give credit for. My buds laugh when I show up with it too, but being such a wild card it steals matches like no other. For me it's either this or go back to Scapeshift which I just prefer running U/W/r colors.
Manamorphose just seems unnessesary. A 2 mana dig for 1, not my style.
As for d8dk32, the delver matchup is pretty up in the air. Probably the fastest deck that can go on par with us mana wise. I would keep in all the speed and only worry about the counter battle. If I felt they sided out removal, I'd throw in Young Pyro, Try to go even wider and more mana efficient with Dispels and Spell Pierce. Probably 1 Anger otherwise.
Love the thread blooming with ideas
As do I. If we have enough people trying to crack this, I'm sure we can figure something out.
As for the hate problem, I've just had too many games where I don't side in YP or another alternate wincon, then my opponent promptly surgically extracts the first Fatesticher I dump in my yard. It's frustrating, cause we can draw all the cards in the world, but we have to win off of conclaves after that.
Yeah, the alternate win con should be the main talk here. I knew Fatestsitcher was the biggest Surgical Extraction target but luckily for me it hasn't happened yet.
I'm going to say that for an alternate win con we Probably want 3 Pyro, 2 Mentor out of sideboard.
Constantly playing mind games with our opponent. We already know that any removal they have game 1 is pretty much useless and likely gets sided out games 2-3. If they side in grave hate maybe just siding out Stitchers and going wider is the plan. Keeps the fast pace and consistency together while throwing our opponent off the stitcher-combo aim.
Drawing more than one Conclave just feels bad, and hurts the manabase a lot. It just slows everything down. I used to run 4, now I also stick with 2. It makes our main game plan a lot more consistent.
Also, why would they side out creature removal? They can interact and disrupt our combo by killing a Fatesticher, so I don't know why that would be considered "dead" game 1. How do you play around creature removal, MyComboBestCombo?