I think dragons claw is still better against burn, but I play siege because it also happens to shore up our other matchups.
There are some decks against which we want to play as a control deck, eg zoo, merfolk, to some extent bw tokens, soul sisters. Is it worth trying anger of the gods in the board against these decks?
@ Idrareb, you don't have me convinced on Monastery Siege, but you have me convinced to try it out. I assume we're using Dragons for Burn correct?
The problem I can see with it is it comes down pretty late against Burn and it doesn't interact with their creatures, like at all. I like having threats, countermagic, and answers to kill their threats. All of this is demanding of us and very early on, but that's exactly why our match-up is so poor.
I specifically avoided saying monastery siege is bad, as I actually love the card. I don't have any opinions other than theoretical ones. I want to like the card for this deck but it just feels like it doesn't remove that inevitability that burn has with us combined with the speed. Regardless, all I said was, I want to know how y'all's testing goes. Have you tested it much yet idareb? I am gonna pick up a couple copies to see how it does as well, but I just wanted to keep the discussion rolling as it seems like a decent option. I still have a long line of cards to be tested as well, but I may move it up to see how much it helps out against burn (and other decks). Jace and thundermaw were next for junk and tokens. Btw, of my other decks, one of them is burn, which is probably why I am such a broken record about the matchup.
The reasons you described for skite are exactly why I do tend to play skite in the board. He is so good against so many decks, it could be foolish not to play him. Versatility is really key when considering sideboard cards and I know that. Especially while boggles, twin, infect, etc are popular. He can just single-handedly win against some of these decks which is why I love the little guy. Even if he does absorb some burn damage that is something at least. I'll be he first to admit that. I LOVE skite I just wanted a card that pulled the matchup more in our favor when we are at 6 life, which is something that burn should still be able to get through (with a siege out) unless they are stuck on three lands with some 2cmc spells in hand. I just was hoping we could find something better. Right now I am gaining around 5-7 life when I land dragons claw on turn two (sometimes way more or way less.) around 3-5 on turn three. This heavily depends on how many counters and red spells I draw though so the variance is HIGH.
Also, last little bit, I think we should add duress and arc trail to the random cards section. It might be a good idea to mention the theory crafting behind why discard is "bad" in a tempo deck just to push the point further.
Snare isn't a card we want in our board and we definitely don't want 4. Its much more defensible for a deck like UR delver to run more than 2 because one of their biggest weaknesses is tarmogoyf. They really can't deal with it outside of just vapor snag or 2 for 1ing themselves. We have Tasigur who usually matches up fine against goofy and we also have actual factual removal spells. While spell snare is strong against two drops (I know, I'm really good at card evaluation ) its only strong when its on the stack. Its tempting to bring more in against affinity, but it does nothing against platings, ravagers, overseers and such that have already resolved. So we dont want more spell snares against decks that are better to fight on the board. While snare is also great in counterwars involving remands and mana leaks and negates, we dont want to bring spell snares in against decks that fight on the stack either, because we'd rather just be using dispel, which also stops cryptic, dispel and of course spell snare.
Back to dragons claw: I guess ultimately, running it in your sideboard comes down to a number of risk/reward assessments.
Siege is higher risk: if you can't land it by the 3rd or 4th turn, you have to hope your countermagic and removal gets you there while your opponent stumbles a bit because a good hand and draws from the burn deck just kill us. The reward for landing it on turn 3 is far greater than dragon's claw though, they can cast 1 spell a turn that will 3 you if you allow it to resolve. Claw lets them play multiple spells that will 2 you if they resolve.0-3 per turn compared to -1(lifegained by countering one spell)-6 per turn.
Dragon's claw clutters your sideboard and lets not forget that it also needs to hit the board early to be at its most effective. If you are running 3-4 dragons claws in your board because you want it on turn 1 that badly.... at that point why arent we playing leyline of sanctity?
EDIT: Because I just noticed it was asked, yes, I have tested siege against burn and my advice comes from that and not merely theory. I only have 1 sanctioned game in, and I detailed that match on the previous page, I kept a 1 land hand with siege and skite and won the game despite shocking myself twice to get siege in on time. While the skite was helpful, I would have still won without it. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 postboard test games in against burn. I cant say that siege has won every game that it resolved in, but the games where I have an early siege and still lose are the games where their board is like double swiftspear and goblin guide.. Siege's tax really does restrict them to 1 spell per turn for pretty much the rest of the game. Even if they have the lands to keep paying through it, that means that they are flooding and generally only jave 1 spell to cast at all.
My argument is not that siege in your deck makes the matchup good. Im saying it makes it better than dragons claw does.
Kolaghan's Command replacing one copy of electrolyze main deck
Rending Volley replacing Combust
Random cards I want to test:
Ashiok in the board - It worked in Fabiano's deck, it could work for use post board where we become more midrangey. I think it's the best walker we have against midrange/creature decks, including affinity where we just spit out a creature every other turn. It sounds unlikely, but I'm trying it out for a while.
Cryptic command maindeck - playing 1 copy with 18 lands now, haven't had trouble with a single copy since i don't draw it that often, and when i do draw it it breaks games
Kolaghan's Command replacing one copy of electrolyze main deck
Rending Volley replacing Combust
Random cards I want to test:
Ashiok in the board - It worked in Fabiano's deck, it could work for use post board where we become more midrangey. I think it's the best walker we have against midrange/creature decks, including affinity where we just spit out a creature every other turn. It sounds unlikely, but I'm trying it out for a while.
Cryptic command maindeck - playing 1 copy with 18 lands now, haven't had trouble with a single copy since i don't draw it that often, and when i do draw it it breaks games
I was thinking about Kolaghan's Command as well after talking to my friends who convinced me to try it (I thought it was subpar at first). It just seems like a 1 for 2 no matter how you look at it. At WORST its 2/3 of a Blightning. It's just a really versatile card. My favorite ability is the bring a creature back mode. Returning Snapcaster or Tasigur that you milled seems insane. We are running Electrolyze for value, but isn't this just a different flavor of value?
I'm not sure about Ashiok, but I will get one or two post rotation to try it.
I also thought about Cryptic Command, but I'm I guess scared of drawing it dead early I guess. It really shines in grindier matches though.
I made a list of cards to try/consider in the future for me:
Ashiok does seem good in certain matchups. Pretty sure the only reason it hasnt seen more modern play is because UBx has never been very good or popular.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
I'd also like to suggest Shattering Spree as an anti-Affinity option. It's been my artifact hate of choice, and most of the time I cast it as: RR - Destroy two artifacts, which is a sort of middle ground between an un-overloaded Vandalblast, and Shatterstorm. Not sure if it's best, but it is something to consider.
Oh, I just thought of another budget replacement for snapcaster. Augur of bolas might be a good option if you do not have snaps. The options really show just how good snapcaster is though... It can block guides, and swiftspears, draws cards, can swing for little nubs... Not the worst card ever and unless it wiffs, at least it cantrips.
Oh, I just thought of another budget replacement for snapcaster. Augur of bolas might be a good option if you do not have snaps. The options really show just how good snapcaster is though... It can block guides, and swiftspears, draws cards, can swing for little nubs... Not the worst card ever and unless it wiffs, at least it cantrips.
As budget friendly as I'd love to be, there truly is no replacing Snapcaster Mage. I was lucky I got the them like 2 months ago pretty cheap and this may be a drastic statement, but I don't think you should be playing this deck with less than 3 of them after playing with them extensively. It is just the best at what it does. Blue Goyf if you will
I've had a lot of success in paper over the course of the last two weeks with this list. Being in Grixis its such a grindy shell in a good way, and you have the ability to occasionally get a few free wins from Delver or T2 Tas. I've found that Deprive is wonderful and the tempo loss or double U commitment isn't going to hurt you too badly. Leak and Pierce get bad really quickly mid to late.
Ashiok is a house and just adds to our threat base, that needs to be answered, on so many occasions I've played it on T3 upticked and low and behold theres a rhino, t4 down tick and we're off to the races. I like Murderous cut, but it competes with Tas and since I'm only running 3 thought scour I feel better served running just 1, Terminate isn't too shabby.
@Lordacex, I agree, I wouldn't play without them either. Someone was asking a while back for budget replacements for snappies. I was just adding to the list. Though I do think a deck without snappies is doable for FNM level stuff.
Then again Fabiano's shell was a control deck with much higher costing cards than ours, so it's two different strategies that may not be good for ashiok. He does require that you are tapped down t3 or wait until we have more mana to do so, I feel he forces you to be a control deck when we want to be tempo oriented. He could be good in the sideboard, but I prefer Jace over him due to his +1 and -2. You could try him out, seems decent vs junk if you can control the board long enough to keep him alive and -4 him to get a rhino or whatever, but it just seems flimsy imo. If you manage to get ashiok to hit a rhino, - him and put it into play, you are already way ahead of the junk player by that point and you could just be bashing with a delver or pyro. Ashiok doesn't really turn a game around like most of the cards we have can, he seems more of a win more card, which we wouldn't want.
Isn't that a whole different deck ? a rogue deck may I say.
I was wondering, Engineered Explosives are great vs tokkens, but what other decks would it hate ?
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Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
@Beautox generally this deck is a lot better at filling the grave than people would think just by glancing at a list. How has running 5 (8 if you count snaps) 3 drops gone for you with 18 lands?
@lexandur: explosives are our generic answer to tokens and enchantments. They also come in against anything that develops a wide board presence like zoo or affinity. Its pretty much a must-include because we can't deal with resolved enchantments otherwise and token strategies are very good against us. Also helps against 3 mana walkers like lilly and ashiok in games where its correct to side out some number of bolts.
Ashiok is nuts. I ran into the Fabiano sultai list at a tournament last night and it was brutal. I've tested against it before and came away thinking the matchup was favorable since we can get under them without playing into damnation. Of course last night it was being played by a local all star who's been on a few pro tours so that could certainly be the difference. I am definitely looking to include ash in our deck as I can't think of many decks where it's a total whiff and planeswalkers can certainly help us grind.
There are enough decks against which ashiok is completely useless that I can justify not maindecking him, but I think it's a decent to try him out first.
Against some decks you just keep adding him, till the point where you either threaten an identity crisis or an endless stream of creatures
I would sideboard ashiok. With twin, burn being about 30% of the meta right now that is already 1/3 decks he is dead against. Then add in infect, boggles, storm, control, and you have another (at least) > 20% of the meta. That is already half of the decks out there he is good against. I don't know if I would bring him in against affinity, as he is slow, let's them potentially go for the turn three infect kill, and doesn't immediately affect their probably advantageous board state. Plus he wouldn't net the same value out of their creatures as they get via plating etc. Then consider the randoms decks... Gifts, ad nauseum, tron, etc... Those have some great creatures... But most of the time... You won't hit one of their ~4 creatures.
Honestly, I would bring him in against junk, Jund, green stompy, mono-green devotion, maybe zoo (though he is pretty slow here), little kid abzan, and other random big fatty decks... I don't know that we need him in those matchups. He could be good there though. For the sultai build, ashiok breaks the mirror/other bg match, because they tend to just go back and forth, where ashiok gives sultai slow incremental advantage that junk just doesn't have. Depending on how our bg games go, he could be very good against them. I tend to go on beatdown and try to disrupt what I can to beat them. It depends on how much aggro, or control they pack though.
@lexandur- explosives also gives us a way to interact with boggles. That is a tough matchup for us as they can sneak under before we have the counter magic to stop them. Keep in mind that they keep their boggle with an umbra on it though.
Also, we now have another possibly bad, clique/snapcaster mage budget substitute in Silumgar Sorceror. Could be decent if you have a young pyromancer token out. He doubles as a bad remove soul and has surprise flash for blocks and can just be a body if need be. Again snapcaster and even clique are both miles ahead though and this one is tough at 3 cmc.
Edit: last thing... I don't know how you guys are able to play only 2 scours. I know we are good at filling our gy... But with 1-2 murderous cuts, 3 tasigur, and 3 snapcaster mages, my gy is very frequently empty. Is your meta heavy on control or something? I have even considered going up to 4 scours at times as it is great when you are holding up counter magic and they pass. (I currently play ~8 fetches)
Thinking I might try this at Tuesday night modern. Definitely going to test this weekend. I guess it's basically just an entirely different deck at this point but the start off point was a delverless tempo deck that really ended up becoming a midrange deck. The thing is, I've loved tombstalker everytime I've cast it postboard. There just aren't any relevant creatures that can stand in its way, other than the very occasional thundermaw hellkite (and most twin players aren't running those anyway). He comes down slower than tas but kills faster and dominates nearly every board he's on. On paper, it's grindier, with a bit more game against junk and twin. I feel like burn even gets better, but not much. This is deck where I feel another snare makes sense in the board because the slower start and no elemental tokens makes it easier for affinity and little kid junk to rush us on the ground. Will get some games in this weekend and my next tournament is Tuesday.
Definitely not abandoning the tempo build just seeing if this is a viable direction as well. I have a love/hate relationship with the card and I always come back to it.
There are some decks against which we want to play as a control deck, eg zoo, merfolk, to some extent bw tokens, soul sisters. Is it worth trying anger of the gods in the board against these decks?
The problem I can see with it is it comes down pretty late against Burn and it doesn't interact with their creatures, like at all. I like having threats, countermagic, and answers to kill their threats. All of this is demanding of us and very early on, but that's exactly why our match-up is so poor.
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
The reasons you described for skite are exactly why I do tend to play skite in the board. He is so good against so many decks, it could be foolish not to play him. Versatility is really key when considering sideboard cards and I know that. Especially while boggles, twin, infect, etc are popular. He can just single-handedly win against some of these decks which is why I love the little guy. Even if he does absorb some burn damage that is something at least. I'll be he first to admit that. I LOVE skite I just wanted a card that pulled the matchup more in our favor when we are at 6 life, which is something that burn should still be able to get through (with a siege out) unless they are stuck on three lands with some 2cmc spells in hand. I just was hoping we could find something better. Right now I am gaining around 5-7 life when I land dragons claw on turn two (sometimes way more or way less.) around 3-5 on turn three. This heavily depends on how many counters and red spells I draw though so the variance is HIGH.
Also, last little bit, I think we should add duress and arc trail to the random cards section. It might be a good idea to mention the theory crafting behind why discard is "bad" in a tempo deck just to push the point further.
Back to dragons claw: I guess ultimately, running it in your sideboard comes down to a number of risk/reward assessments.
Siege is higher risk: if you can't land it by the 3rd or 4th turn, you have to hope your countermagic and removal gets you there while your opponent stumbles a bit because a good hand and draws from the burn deck just kill us. The reward for landing it on turn 3 is far greater than dragon's claw though, they can cast 1 spell a turn that will 3 you if you allow it to resolve. Claw lets them play multiple spells that will 2 you if they resolve.0-3 per turn compared to -1(lifegained by countering one spell)-6 per turn.
Dragon's claw clutters your sideboard and lets not forget that it also needs to hit the board early to be at its most effective. If you are running 3-4 dragons claws in your board because you want it on turn 1 that badly.... at that point why arent we playing leyline of sanctity?
EDIT: Because I just noticed it was asked, yes, I have tested siege against burn and my advice comes from that and not merely theory. I only have 1 sanctioned game in, and I detailed that match on the previous page, I kept a 1 land hand with siege and skite and won the game despite shocking myself twice to get siege in on time. While the skite was helpful, I would have still won without it. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 postboard test games in against burn. I cant say that siege has won every game that it resolved in, but the games where I have an early siege and still lose are the games where their board is like double swiftspear and goblin guide.. Siege's tax really does restrict them to 1 spell per turn for pretty much the rest of the game. Even if they have the lands to keep paying through it, that means that they are flooding and generally only jave 1 spell to cast at all.
My argument is not that siege in your deck makes the matchup good. Im saying it makes it better than dragons claw does.
Kolaghan's Command replacing one copy of electrolyze main deck
Rending Volley replacing Combust
Random cards I want to test:
Ashiok in the board - It worked in Fabiano's deck, it could work for use post board where we become more midrangey. I think it's the best walker we have against midrange/creature decks, including affinity where we just spit out a creature every other turn. It sounds unlikely, but I'm trying it out for a while.
Cryptic command maindeck - playing 1 copy with 18 lands now, haven't had trouble with a single copy since i don't draw it that often, and when i do draw it it breaks games
I was thinking about Kolaghan's Command as well after talking to my friends who convinced me to try it (I thought it was subpar at first). It just seems like a 1 for 2 no matter how you look at it. At WORST its 2/3 of a Blightning. It's just a really versatile card. My favorite ability is the bring a creature back mode. Returning Snapcaster or Tasigur that you milled seems insane. We are running Electrolyze for value, but isn't this just a different flavor of value?
I'm not sure about Ashiok, but I will get one or two post rotation to try it.
I also thought about Cryptic Command, but I'm I guess scared of drawing it dead early I guess. It really shines in grindier matches though.
I made a list of cards to try/consider in the future for me:
Jace, Architect of Thought
Hurkyl's Recall vs Vandalblast vs Shatterstorm (sideboard)
Monastery Siege
Outpost Siege
Kolaghan's Command
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Tidebinder Mage (sideboard)
Rakdos Charm (sideboard)
Sun Droplet (sideboard)
Engineered Explosives (sideboard)
Threads of Disloyalty (sideboard)
Sower of Temptation
Echoing Truth (sideboard)
More Spell Snares
Rending Volley (to replace Combust in the sideboard)
Inquisition of Kozilek
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
Here's his link.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/271993#paper
I've been wondering is I should cut a Young Pyromancer and add a fourth Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really good right now.
As budget friendly as I'd love to be, there truly is no replacing Snapcaster Mage. I was lucky I got the them like 2 months ago pretty cheap and this may be a drastic statement, but I don't think you should be playing this deck with less than 3 of them after playing with them extensively. It is just the best at what it does. Blue Goyf if you will
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Spells 27
2 Terminate
4 Deprive
3 Electrolyze
1 Murderous Cut
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thought Scour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Land 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Moon
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Spellskite
2 Dispel
1 Dismember
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress
1 Vandalblast
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Sower of Temptation
Ashiok is a house and just adds to our threat base, that needs to be answered, on so many occasions I've played it on T3 upticked and low and behold theres a rhino, t4 down tick and we're off to the races. I like Murderous cut, but it competes with Tas and since I'm only running 3 thought scour I feel better served running just 1, Terminate isn't too shabby.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Isn't that a whole different deck ? a rogue deck may I say.
I was wondering, Engineered Explosives are great vs tokkens, but what other decks would it hate ?
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
@lexandur: explosives are our generic answer to tokens and enchantments. They also come in against anything that develops a wide board presence like zoo or affinity. Its pretty much a must-include because we can't deal with resolved enchantments otherwise and token strategies are very good against us. Also helps against 3 mana walkers like lilly and ashiok in games where its correct to side out some number of bolts.
Ashiok is nuts. I ran into the Fabiano sultai list at a tournament last night and it was brutal. I've tested against it before and came away thinking the matchup was favorable since we can get under them without playing into damnation. Of course last night it was being played by a local all star who's been on a few pro tours so that could certainly be the difference. I am definitely looking to include ash in our deck as I can't think of many decks where it's a total whiff and planeswalkers can certainly help us grind.
Against some decks you just keep adding him, till the point where you either threaten an identity crisis or an endless stream of creatures
Honestly, I would bring him in against junk, Jund, green stompy, mono-green devotion, maybe zoo (though he is pretty slow here), little kid abzan, and other random big fatty decks... I don't know that we need him in those matchups. He could be good there though. For the sultai build, ashiok breaks the mirror/other bg match, because they tend to just go back and forth, where ashiok gives sultai slow incremental advantage that junk just doesn't have. Depending on how our bg games go, he could be very good against them. I tend to go on beatdown and try to disrupt what I can to beat them. It depends on how much aggro, or control they pack though.
@lexandur- explosives also gives us a way to interact with boggles. That is a tough matchup for us as they can sneak under before we have the counter magic to stop them. Keep in mind that they keep their boggle with an umbra on it though.
Also, we now have another possibly bad, clique/snapcaster mage budget substitute in Silumgar Sorceror. Could be decent if you have a young pyromancer token out. He doubles as a bad remove soul and has surprise flash for blocks and can just be a body if need be. Again snapcaster and even clique are both miles ahead though and this one is tough at 3 cmc.
Edit: last thing... I don't know how you guys are able to play only 2 scours. I know we are good at filling our gy... But with 1-2 murderous cuts, 3 tasigur, and 3 snapcaster mages, my gy is very frequently empty. Is your meta heavy on control or something? I have even considered going up to 4 scours at times as it is great when you are holding up counter magic and they pass. (I currently play ~8 fetches)
3 tombstalker
4 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
4 serum visions
2 thoughtseize
3 IoK
4 remand
3 terminate
3 electrolyze
4 lightning bolt
2 spell snare
2 cryptic command
2 thought scour
4 delta
4 tarn
1 mire
2 steam vents
2 watery grave
1 blood crypt
3 island
2 swamp
1 mountain
2 engineered explosives
2 spellskite
3 dispel
1 combust
1 keranos God of storms
1 spell snare
2 rakdos charm
2 blood moon
1 shatterstorm
Thinking I might try this at Tuesday night modern. Definitely going to test this weekend. I guess it's basically just an entirely different deck at this point but the start off point was a delverless tempo deck that really ended up becoming a midrange deck. The thing is, I've loved tombstalker everytime I've cast it postboard. There just aren't any relevant creatures that can stand in its way, other than the very occasional thundermaw hellkite (and most twin players aren't running those anyway). He comes down slower than tas but kills faster and dominates nearly every board he's on. On paper, it's grindier, with a bit more game against junk and twin. I feel like burn even gets better, but not much. This is deck where I feel another snare makes sense in the board because the slower start and no elemental tokens makes it easier for affinity and little kid junk to rush us on the ground. Will get some games in this weekend and my next tournament is Tuesday.
Definitely not abandoning the tempo build just seeing if this is a viable direction as well. I have a love/hate relationship with the card and I always come back to it.