Haha yeah, the card is pretty good. Not utterly ridiculous.
I've been talking to Willy Edel about the deck, it seems like he has taken some interest. I'm wondering if he will play something similar next weekend at worlds. That would be pretty sick.
In considering how we use removal and how the deck is playing, is Dreadbore in the side not a terrible option against BG(x) and Tron (an AWFUL matchup precisely because we have such a hard time dealing with Karns and Ugins). We're already sacrificing so much of our instant speed interaction in favor of sorcery speed, seems like it's worth a shot.
I think when it comes to tron, you can only do so much and you just accept that it is a bad matchup. Although, to be honest, we have a better chance than normal grixis or jund because I chose to go with the full 4 fulminator, and then the rise/kcommand. (Rising their wurmcoil can often let you get in the last damage, and falling them can really ruin their hand)
If you try to dedicate to many slots to it's you just sacrifice other matchups
Haha yeah, the card is pretty good. Not utterly ridiculous.
I've been talking to Willy Edel about the deck, it seems like he has taken some interest. I'm wondering if he will play something similar next weekend at worlds. That would be pretty sick.
Yeah, Edel just really likes Abbot. I would be pretty stoked about seeing that.
Private Mod Note
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I only mention dreadbore because it's not as narrow as just needing to come in against tron, it still does function as extra terminates, it can just also go that little bit extra.
So I've been playtesting the Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (cut the Anglers and a Rise/Fall, which may be incorrect, but I didn't want to go overboard on creatures, and regardless I just wanted to see the card in action) and while Jace was good, he really shined in the type of games that the deck is already at: long/grindy value oriented matchups. I think the deck has plenty of card advantage engines, and while I wasn't really unhappy with him, I just felt like it didn't do what I needed. Maybe I should have cut the Liliana's or Abbots. I really doubt that much of the removal, cantrips, or other disruption could be cut, so the options seem limited on what to put Jace in for.
Overall I'm glad I got to test the card, he definitely isn't bad, and maybe he will find his way in a deck similar to this eventually, but I think I would rather have cards that either slow my opponent down or pressure them instead of more grindiness. Rise/Fall does both, Liliana does both, as does Tasigur, Snap, Abbot, and the KCommands. The Anglers are mostly there for pressure, and to stabilize the board against smaller creatures, and while he isn't a value play at all, I think it is really integral to just have a big efficient creature to close out or stabilize a game.
So after all of that talking and testing, I just ended up back where I started
I'm really in love with the deck. I really hope some more people pick this deck up. I think it is incredibly good, and has ways to fight in almost any matchup (even the big mana or fast aggro decks). The deck mulligans incredibly well and rewards tight play. There are a lot of little value plays and small synergies that really add up after you play the deck for a while. Sequencing your spells (and even lands) is incredibly important. Rise/Fall and Abbot are both SUPER fun to play with, it is like a little lottery every time you play with them. But even with those, knowing the timing for playing them really differentiates whether they will be a dud or complete blowout.
Took my own list based on this to an event yesterday and I can say without a doubt that it is the most fun deck I have ever played. While I did terribly overall finishing 33 of 35 every single game was interactive and a hell of a lot of fun.
I didn't have any access to Lili's replacing them with 2 Vendilion Cliques and an extra Kolaghan's. While less than optimal, they still felt alright. The one thing I came out of the day wanting from the deck is 2 Cryptic Commands in the main, I feel like the card would compliment the deck really nicely, with the modes being hugely relevant in most situations.
The other thing I am going to play around with is adding some speed in the side in he form of maybe some Goblin Guides? In some of my match-ups I just wanted that extra bit of damage to push through early and win faster. Please tell me what you think and i'll be checking in regularly for idea's and discussion. Absolutely blown away with this list thanks for sharing it.
It is hard to say no to cryptic command. That card is sweet. The biggest trouble is that it would put so much stress on the manabase. As it is now, the 20 lands work really well with the curve of the deck, cryptic being a 4 drop would mean at least another land, maybe 2. And then with how the spell costs work I want double black first, then double red, and then blue when possible. Shoving a triple blue card in there is rough. The deck is really base black and red.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, just very difficult, and I'm unsure it would be worth it
I agree with the assessment of Jace - he just does more of what the deck is already doing very well. If other stuff gets printed that is REALLY abusable with him I can see him being an option for later, but I think the maindeck honestly feels great as it is. No complaints at all.
Also, I really don't think Cryptic is what we want. We've already got multiple cards with extreme value attached to them (abbot, R/F, K command) so I don't know that we need a counter that does that as well - especially because flipping a counter off of Abbot would feel awful. I also DEFINITELY agree about the manabase in relation to cryptic, this deck is solidly RB(u) and at the end of many games it's not been uncommon for me to only have 1 or 2 blue sources out of 6/7 lands. I don't think Cryptic is in line with where we want to be (and I say that in sorrow because I LOVE cryptic).
Just dominated Jund and Abzan CoCo in major grindfests. Unlike other grindy matchups, I never feel behind at all, and ANYTHING in the deck other than a land feels like an amazing topdeck.
I think Jace is worth exploring further. I don't know that I'd want him as a 4 of, I don't know that I'd exclude Abbot at all (he puts RIDICULOUS amounts of pressure on), and I don't know that this deck needs/wants spell snares or remands but that's a great finish. Is Lily Grixis a better name for this sort of shell?
It's funny, because while it may seem like Major's deck is similar to ours because of the discard, once you play it you will realise that it still plays more like grixis control... But with even less ways to win the game or pressure. Closing a game with that deck is hard. Haha. The jaces are a lot of value, but they don't actually end the game or put pressure on your opponent.
He has the jaces, remands, spell snares, 3 more lands, while we have abbot, rise/fall, angler, and the last couple cantrips and a Liliana. That's a pretty big difference actually.
True. It definitely looks as if it fits somewhere between both lists (which isn't really territory that I'd want to be in). I'm not actually sure how he closed most games out (especially against the clock) as it is so threat light. Either way, his list has the Grixis control thread panicking and asking if they need to put LOTV into that deck (absolutely not).
From the few times that it's happened to me where I flip Snap off of Abbot with 4 mana on board, I've never really been unhappy to have the extra body available. It's not ideal sure, but as soon as you even have the 5th mana then flipping snap isn't bad (if you've got a scour, visions, or discard spell in the yard). I will say that I agree that if we're to cut anything, it's probably snapcaster. I don't like the idea of cutting rise/fall at all but I can certainly see looking at -2 Snaps +2 Jace for some tests. When I was testing Jace early on I often found that I had little trouble flipping it because we're giving opposing decks so many fits with targeted discard or more important creatures to kill (Abbot, Tas, Angler). Jace + Rise/Fall is incredibly strong as it's buying back a hymn to tourach or putting us way ahead on the board through bounce/revive. I often found myself casting a spell and then immediately bringing it back with Jace, which with R/F is wild because you Rise first to bounce and get something back and then fall it away. SO strong.
As far as lands go - I haven't personally stumbled much, but I can see there being some complications and needing to rework the manabase a little bit. I tried loothouse for a little while but didn't really find that I got to use it much as we're looking to tap out so often on our turns. It's just not as strong here as it is in something like twin because if they don't need to use an instant they can dump their unused mana.
Man, cutting some number of Snapcaster Mages wasn't something that I honestly considered. I guess it makes sense. Snap is pretty great, but he isn't at his absolute best here since you much pay for the spells immediately and about half of the cards we want to flash back are sorcery speed. (not that it makes him bad or anything, just that this deck doesn't use him to his absolute potential)
I agree with Niall that the Rise/Falls should definitely stay, they seem like one of, if not the most insane target for Jace's -3. Turn 4 Rise AND Fall? Or Fall and Fall again? Like Majors touched on in his article, Jace is really good with Liliana. They make a cute couple
I do like Jace in the deck, but there's definitely a tension between all the delve threats and jace for what should be cast on t2 (majors avoids this by cutting delve threats to just the two Tasigurs). I'm currently testing the list in OP minus 2 angler, minus 1 terminate in favor of 3 flip Jace. I'll let you know how it goes.
I really like Angler and the delve creatures, and I definitely think that turn 2 could potentially get crowded, but I'd argue that if magically you had a perfect hand to cast both Jace or a Delve creature on turn 2, you need to have a solid read on what your role in the matchup is. I think MOST of the time having Jace on turn 2 will be better, specifically because he will fill the yard for the delver and set you up for the later turns, but part of the strength of this deck is being able to jam a fatty and put tons of pressure on if you need to. I don't know what the magic number of delvers is (and cutting an angler or tasigur might be correct) but I wouldn't be quick to cut them. A deck with options and multiple ways to attack is a strong one, and we don't want to lose that. It should also be noted that the delvers take on a different role here than they do in Grixis control - rarely do we want to play them super early and tempo someone out. That can happen for sure, but they work here incredibly well as topdecks. By all means though, test away. Nothing is set in stone here as this whole shell is just beginning to be explored. PLEASE report back with what you find works best for you!
Jace in testing further continues to be amazing. 2 of minimum, 3 of is probably correct, 4 seems like too many because you're lowering your threat density if you cut too much. I've found this deck hums best when you're pressuring with something every turn, taking your foot off the gas can leave you vulnerable.
TJD - how sold are you on the 2/2 iok/TS split? Our manabase isn't as painful as something like Grixis delver, but it's certainly not painless. Is TS worth it?
I think if we are playing 2 or 3 Jaces, then cutting a thoughtscour seems reasonable. Then a snap for the 2nd. I'm not sure how to squeeze that 3rd Jace in though. I REALLY don't want to cut the delve threats though. I like them a lot. Being able to turn the corner quickly is really nice after you stabilize. Abbot+Angler is very often a 2 turn clock. Cutting the threats for a more control route seems okay, but I think this deck is pretty solidly midrange, and and I don't think cutting your cards that help you pressure and closeout the game is correct. (because we need to play aggro against the control and combo decks quite often)
It is possible that the Falls and Liliana can do enough work that swapping the thoughtseizes for more inquisitions is reasonable. It might just be dependent on what you expect to play. I'm okay with the tradeoff of the lifeloss.
Some cards that we can also consider: Tribute to Hunger and Crypt Incursion. Tribute might be too expensive with the low land count, but having another lifegain option is appealing. Crypt Incursion is similar. It might be too slow against Grishoalbrand, but against something like Living End it could be worth it. Just some ideas from Mike Jacob's stream.
@fortunefortune: I think that instead of tension, there is actually some synergy there. We can decide that our hand still needs some work, and therefore play the delve threat before we flip Jace, giving us more looting options, or we can flip him for value immediately. (oftentimes flashing back a disruption spell to insure that our threat resolves/lives)
I've been talking to Willy Edel about the deck, it seems like he has taken some interest. I'm wondering if he will play something similar next weekend at worlds. That would be pretty sick.
If you try to dedicate to many slots to it's you just sacrifice other matchups
Overall I'm glad I got to test the card, he definitely isn't bad, and maybe he will find his way in a deck similar to this eventually, but I think I would rather have cards that either slow my opponent down or pressure them instead of more grindiness. Rise/Fall does both, Liliana does both, as does Tasigur, Snap, Abbot, and the KCommands. The Anglers are mostly there for pressure, and to stabilize the board against smaller creatures, and while he isn't a value play at all, I think it is really integral to just have a big efficient creature to close out or stabilize a game.
So after all of that talking and testing, I just ended up back where I started
I'm really in love with the deck. I really hope some more people pick this deck up. I think it is incredibly good, and has ways to fight in almost any matchup (even the big mana or fast aggro decks). The deck mulligans incredibly well and rewards tight play. There are a lot of little value plays and small synergies that really add up after you play the deck for a while. Sequencing your spells (and even lands) is incredibly important. Rise/Fall and Abbot are both SUPER fun to play with, it is like a little lottery every time you play with them. But even with those, knowing the timing for playing them really differentiates whether they will be a dud or complete blowout.
I didn't have any access to Lili's replacing them with 2 Vendilion Cliques and an extra Kolaghan's. While less than optimal, they still felt alright. The one thing I came out of the day wanting from the deck is 2 Cryptic Commands in the main, I feel like the card would compliment the deck really nicely, with the modes being hugely relevant in most situations.
The other thing I am going to play around with is adding some speed in the side in he form of maybe some Goblin Guides? In some of my match-ups I just wanted that extra bit of damage to push through early and win faster. Please tell me what you think and i'll be checking in regularly for idea's and discussion. Absolutely blown away with this list thanks for sharing it.
I'm not saying it would be impossible, just very difficult, and I'm unsure it would be worth it
This deck is a blast to play.
Just dominated Jund and Abzan CoCo in major grindfests. Unlike other grindy matchups, I never feel behind at all, and ANYTHING in the deck other than a land feels like an amazing topdeck.
I think Jace is worth exploring further. I don't know that I'd want him as a 4 of, I don't know that I'd exclude Abbot at all (he puts RIDICULOUS amounts of pressure on), and I don't know that this deck needs/wants spell snares or remands but that's a great finish. Is Lily Grixis a better name for this sort of shell?
Edit: here was his final list - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90016
He has the jaces, remands, spell snares, 3 more lands, while we have abbot, rise/fall, angler, and the last couple cantrips and a Liliana. That's a pretty big difference actually.
As far as lands go - I haven't personally stumbled much, but I can see there being some complications and needing to rework the manabase a little bit. I tried loothouse for a little while but didn't really find that I got to use it much as we're looking to tap out so often on our turns. It's just not as strong here as it is in something like twin because if they don't need to use an instant they can dump their unused mana.
I agree with Niall that the Rise/Falls should definitely stay, they seem like one of, if not the most insane target for Jace's -3. Turn 4 Rise AND Fall? Or Fall and Fall again? Like Majors touched on in his article, Jace is really good with Liliana. They make a cute couple
Jace in testing further continues to be amazing. 2 of minimum, 3 of is probably correct, 4 seems like too many because you're lowering your threat density if you cut too much. I've found this deck hums best when you're pressuring with something every turn, taking your foot off the gas can leave you vulnerable.
TJD - how sold are you on the 2/2 iok/TS split? Our manabase isn't as painful as something like Grixis delver, but it's certainly not painless. Is TS worth it?
It is possible that the Falls and Liliana can do enough work that swapping the thoughtseizes for more inquisitions is reasonable. It might just be dependent on what you expect to play. I'm okay with the tradeoff of the lifeloss.
Some cards that we can also consider: Tribute to Hunger and Crypt Incursion. Tribute might be too expensive with the low land count, but having another lifegain option is appealing. Crypt Incursion is similar. It might be too slow against Grishoalbrand, but against something like Living End it could be worth it. Just some ideas from Mike Jacob's stream.
@fortunefortune: I think that instead of tension, there is actually some synergy there. We can decide that our hand still needs some work, and therefore play the delve threat before we flip Jace, giving us more looting options, or we can flip him for value immediately. (oftentimes flashing back a disruption spell to insure that our threat resolves/lives)
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/316203#paper
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
27
4 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Rise // Fall
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Vampiric Link
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rise // Fall
1 Vandalblast