Hey everyone! I've been following this thread since it started (well, I guess reddit is where it started). Anyway, I was thinking about the sideboard. How about Molten Rain's instead of Fulminator Mage's? Flashing back Molten Rains with Snappy and Jace sounds pretty sweet.
You can get the Fulminators back with Rise and KCommand as well, so both have a way of recursion in the deck (but I have up to 8 raise dead effects, and they can be done multiple times per Fulminator, whereas Snap and Jace exile the molten rain). I think I would rather have the Fulminators because they can attack multiple times, block, and activate at instant speed. They are also easier to cast (this is small though). Rain does trigger prowess and can hit basics, and you get the damage from the Molten Rain immediately which might be relevant at times.
How has your testing gone so far? How do you like the deck?
I keep going back and forth on the 21st land. I feel like it is rare that I get screwed, but when I look at the curve of the deck, it is possible that it should just be there. (Abbot and Jace can help with land drops, which is something to consider). What do you guys think? Has the deck run smoothly enough?
I've been playing Grixis Control and Grixis Twin but when Origins was spoiled and I saw the Abbot and new Jace I knew I would have to jam them together somehow. Then I saw this list and had to try it. Anyway, I've just started testing. I don't have the Jace's in paper yet but I should have them later this week. I've been using Young Pyromancer in it's place. I'll be testing both online and in paper in the coming weeks. I think this deck can be something. How's testing been going for you?
In relation to the 20vs21 lands discussion I've only ever used 20 and I mulligan maybe 1 in 10 games and I've even been testing builds with 4 drops. The only times I have ever mana screwed is keeping a 1-lander in casuals because the rest of the hand is too sweet to pass up.
Yeah, I really don't think the lands are an issue right now, the only real question being if it's worth it to add a utility land. We can operate on very little mana and we filter our deck fast enough to find what we need before things get out of hand.
Hey Hawk, Just curious which 4 drops you're testing? KCommand has me wanting to test out Desecration Demon in multiple Grixis shells.
Spicy. I can see him in the side as an 'over the top' threat the way some of the Grixis control lists are running Wurmcoil/Gravetitan. It's worth testing for sure.
Saw that. I feel like he wants to jump all the way into sorcery speed, but blue mages have such a hard time dumping all of the counters. Also, people continue to underestimate rise/fall. They'll come around.
I still feel that his new deck is INCREDIBLY threat light, and he's really really soft to path with so few threats. It'd be hard to close out anything in GW with either list.
I think Jace is worth exploring further. I don't know that I'd want him as a 4 of, I don't know that I'd exclude Abbot at all (he puts RIDICULOUS amounts of pressure on), and I don't know that this deck needs/wants spell snares or remands but that's a great finish. Is Lily Grixis a better name for this sort of shell?
Abbot and counterspells don't really get along. I think you have to pick one or the other unless you're playing Cryptic since that at least has bounce+draw but you're probably never planning to Abbot into Cryptic
I 100% agree that you don't want any counters in the 75 of an Abbot list (unless you designed the list to transform after sideboarding or something silly like that). Majors has since updated his list to look even closer to ours after admitting that some of the counters feel out of place. Abbot into Cryptic is a play that I can't imagine any modern deck successfully using to it's full advantage, so you'll see no one here recommending to do so. I think though that in many ways his placement with his version of the deck (however flawed, GOOD players can pilot less than optimal decks) will open up a lot of thinking as to how Lily and Jace fit into Grixis colors - something we're trying to solve with this thread.
First of all, I just wanted to say that I am loving this deck. I've been playing grixis twin and control for months now, took down a pptq with twin, and have been looking for a way to modify the deck to look more like a jund / grindy value deck for awhile. I made a few lists that cut down on counters but it never quite felt right so I stuck with the tried and true. These lists I'm seeing here look amazing though, I just ordered the rise / falls and other cards I was missing to run it, and plan to try to get in enough practice with the deck to run it in the WMCQ next weekend.
As far as counter magic is concerned, I think one of the strongest pulls to this deck was the lack of any counters, surprisingly. I feel like if you are trying to make the deck play more like jund, where you want both players hell bent and playing off the top, then counter magic is just terrible. You want the card you draw to start a chain of snapcaster / KCommand / rise that makes your one card play like a full grip. This deck turns its graveyard into another hand of spells to draw on, and trying to hold counterspells in hand doesn't make any sense with this type of deck. I think, at least for now while the deck is relatively unknown, the implied threat of untapped blue mana is good enough.
My only slight hesitation is the burn match up. I have yet to test vampiric link, but I hope it is good enough to make up for running zero dispels. The mana base seems somewhat painful, and grixis colors have a rough time with burn anyway, but I'm still up in the air about 6-7 of the sideboard slots, so we'll see. I'm looking forward to keeping up on this thread to see how testing goes for everyone.
Im glad you're enjoying it. please keep us updated on your testing, and good luck at the WMCQ!
I do agree that since the deck is still pretty unknown, my opponents will often respect my untapped blue sources since they don't know I don't play any counters.
Burn isn't great. (That just comes with the colors)
We don't have dispels, but an early fall helps a TON as long as you don't have to take too much damage from your lands. I would like to be able to modify the manabase to less painful, but that is difficult with the 20 land count (that I think most of us have agreed is correct). Just remember that in a matchup like this, it is okay to just play zero value abbots in the early turns of the game to make sure you have some board presence.
One pretty cute interaction I found with Jace and Rise is this: I had an angler in my yard I wanted to get back, but there weren't any creatures on board other than Jace. Rise NEEDS to have 2 targets, so I rised, targeted angler and jace, then activated Jace in response, flipped my Jace, then got my angler back and didn't have to bounce anything. Pretty small, but something to keep in mind. There are so many fun little interactions
In continuing along that same line of thinking, Rise often works just as well at bouncing your own creatures as it does with one of the opponents. Bouncing either Abbot or Snap here is TONS of value and is reminiscent of using Cryptic to bounce and chain your Snapcasters. It is those sorts of synergies that make a deck both powerful and resilient and the more interactions we find and exploit like this the better.
As for burn, yep. It's gonna be rough. Welcome to Grixis. Do take heart though in knowing that burn's meta game share seems to be declining (only 1 top 32 showing at Charlotte), so that's SOMETHING.
Shadow - welcome to the thread! Definitely keep us posted with any results/insights you may have.
Thanks, I'm planning to start testing this as soon as possible. Between the 2 gaming stores in my town there are 2 small modern tournaments each week, and they each allow some proxies, so I will probably proxy the cards I ordered and try it tomorrow evening for the first time. The competition is mostly fairly soft, with a few solid players, so I'm hoping this weekend I'll be able to grind some matches with it and see how things go. My normal testing group has a decent gauntlet with most of the tier 1 decks put together so I'll try to put the deck through its paces.
I am definitely no stranger to grixis, and the burn match up. With my twin list, I ran 1 dispel main and 2 in the board, as well as 2 spell snares in the main. Some of that was a meta call, but countering an eidolon on the draw just feels so good. The match up has never been great, but I think I had it up to at least a 50 / 50 shot, then possibly slightly favored in post board games. I'm hoping that landing a fall / IoK or two early will let me survive long enough. I feel like this deck should be able to put on some fast pressure, and if you can land a delve threat turn 2 or 3 its hard for them to recover.
One thing I was curious about is trying to get a second Blackcleave cliffs into the 20 lands. I feel like 20 is the right number, but can we shave 1 of the 9 fetches for another cliffs? This deck functions so similarly to jund, it seems like being able to drop a cliffs and cast a discard or hold up bolt for no life loss is something this deck wants to do consistently. However, I can understand if there just isn't room for it.
I think if we are playing 2 or 3 Jaces, then cutting a thoughtscour seems reasonable. Then a snap for the 2nd. I'm not sure how to squeeze that 3rd Jace in though. I REALLY don't want to cut the delve threats though. I like them a lot. Being able to turn the corner quickly is really nice after you stabilize. Abbot+Angler is very often a 2 turn clock. Cutting the threats for a more control route seems okay, but I think this deck is pretty solidly midrange, and and I don't think cutting your cards that help you pressure and closeout the game is correct. (because we need to play aggro against the control and combo decks quite often)
It is possible that the Falls and Liliana can do enough work that swapping the thoughtseizes for more inquisitions is reasonable. It might just be dependent on what you expect to play. I'm okay with the tradeoff of the lifeloss.
Some cards that we can also consider: Tribute to Hunger and Crypt Incursion. Tribute might be too expensive with the low land count, but having another lifegain option is appealing. Crypt Incursion is similar. It might be too slow against Grishoalbrand, but against something like Living End it could be worth it. Just some ideas from Mike Jacob's stream.
@fortunefortune: I think that instead of tension, there is actually some synergy there. We can decide that our hand still needs some work, and therefore play the delve threat before we flip Jace, giving us more looting options, or we can flip him for value immediately. (oftentimes flashing back a disruption spell to insure that our threat resolves/lives)
I certainly wouldn't cut Thought Scour for Jace. Thought Scour plays amazingly with Jace since it let's him flip out of nowhere after blocking. I probably would cut 2 Snapcasters for 2 Jaces. While I am not a huge fan of Jace in most decks, he should be amazing in this deck because of the Thought Scours and the massive amount of sorceries and Snapcaster really seems like it can't be used to its full potential with Kolaghan's Command or Rise // Fall with only 20 lands.
This deck looks amazing. I wish I could play it, but I don't own any Lilianas.
I also don't own any Lilianas - I've done all of my testing on Cockatrice. It's gone well enough for me to look toward buying them going forward. A reprint eventually would be so cool, maybe it will happen.
As far as the manabase goes I'm currently on 2 Blackcleave Cliffs, cutting a Blood Crypt to make room, although I could definitely see cutting a fetch instead. I don't find I need blue mana blue mana or red mana red mana until I want to start grinding with Abbot or Snapcaster respectively and that's T4 at the earliest so I've been fetching basics after I find a dual land.
That's kind of what I figured too, I did consider cutting the second blood crypt instead of a fetch, but I wasn't sure which one to drop. I think I'll start by cutting the crypt and if I find that I want a second one I'll swap out a delta instead.
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4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
Other Spells (26)
4 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Rise // Fall
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Molten Rains
2 Vampiric Link
1 Languish
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Spellskite
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Vandalblast
2 Negate
How has your testing gone so far? How do you like the deck?
I keep going back and forth on the 21st land. I feel like it is rare that I get screwed, but when I look at the curve of the deck, it is possible that it should just be there. (Abbot and Jace can help with land drops, which is something to consider). What do you guys think? Has the deck run smoothly enough?
Spicy. I can see him in the side as an 'over the top' threat the way some of the Grixis control lists are running Wurmcoil/Gravetitan. It's worth testing for sure.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31442_The-Vryns-Prodigy-Hat-Trick.html
I still feel that his new deck is INCREDIBLY threat light, and he's really really soft to path with so few threats. It'd be hard to close out anything in GW with either list.
Have you found the slot for the 3rd jace? I haven't been able to test it enough, I think I still like the 2/2 jace/angler split.
Abbot and counterspells don't really get along. I think you have to pick one or the other unless you're playing Cryptic since that at least has bounce+draw but you're probably never planning to Abbot into Cryptic
As far as counter magic is concerned, I think one of the strongest pulls to this deck was the lack of any counters, surprisingly. I feel like if you are trying to make the deck play more like jund, where you want both players hell bent and playing off the top, then counter magic is just terrible. You want the card you draw to start a chain of snapcaster / KCommand / rise that makes your one card play like a full grip. This deck turns its graveyard into another hand of spells to draw on, and trying to hold counterspells in hand doesn't make any sense with this type of deck. I think, at least for now while the deck is relatively unknown, the implied threat of untapped blue mana is good enough.
My only slight hesitation is the burn match up. I have yet to test vampiric link, but I hope it is good enough to make up for running zero dispels. The mana base seems somewhat painful, and grixis colors have a rough time with burn anyway, but I'm still up in the air about 6-7 of the sideboard slots, so we'll see. I'm looking forward to keeping up on this thread to see how testing goes for everyone.
I do agree that since the deck is still pretty unknown, my opponents will often respect my untapped blue sources since they don't know I don't play any counters.
Burn isn't great. (That just comes with the colors)
We don't have dispels, but an early fall helps a TON as long as you don't have to take too much damage from your lands. I would like to be able to modify the manabase to less painful, but that is difficult with the 20 land count (that I think most of us have agreed is correct). Just remember that in a matchup like this, it is okay to just play zero value abbots in the early turns of the game to make sure you have some board presence.
One pretty cute interaction I found with Jace and Rise is this: I had an angler in my yard I wanted to get back, but there weren't any creatures on board other than Jace. Rise NEEDS to have 2 targets, so I rised, targeted angler and jace, then activated Jace in response, flipped my Jace, then got my angler back and didn't have to bounce anything. Pretty small, but something to keep in mind. There are so many fun little interactions
As for burn, yep. It's gonna be rough. Welcome to Grixis. Do take heart though in knowing that burn's meta game share seems to be declining (only 1 top 32 showing at Charlotte), so that's SOMETHING.
Shadow - welcome to the thread! Definitely keep us posted with any results/insights you may have.
I am definitely no stranger to grixis, and the burn match up. With my twin list, I ran 1 dispel main and 2 in the board, as well as 2 spell snares in the main. Some of that was a meta call, but countering an eidolon on the draw just feels so good. The match up has never been great, but I think I had it up to at least a 50 / 50 shot, then possibly slightly favored in post board games. I'm hoping that landing a fall / IoK or two early will let me survive long enough. I feel like this deck should be able to put on some fast pressure, and if you can land a delve threat turn 2 or 3 its hard for them to recover.
One thing I was curious about is trying to get a second Blackcleave cliffs into the 20 lands. I feel like 20 is the right number, but can we shave 1 of the 9 fetches for another cliffs? This deck functions so similarly to jund, it seems like being able to drop a cliffs and cast a discard or hold up bolt for no life loss is something this deck wants to do consistently. However, I can understand if there just isn't room for it.
I certainly wouldn't cut Thought Scour for Jace. Thought Scour plays amazingly with Jace since it let's him flip out of nowhere after blocking. I probably would cut 2 Snapcasters for 2 Jaces. While I am not a huge fan of Jace in most decks, he should be amazing in this deck because of the Thought Scours and the massive amount of sorceries and Snapcaster really seems like it can't be used to its full potential with Kolaghan's Command or Rise // Fall with only 20 lands.
This deck looks amazing. I wish I could play it, but I don't own any Lilianas.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's kind of what I figured too, I did consider cutting the second blood crypt instead of a fetch, but I wasn't sure which one to drop. I think I'll start by cutting the crypt and if I find that I want a second one I'll swap out a delta instead.