It seems like a lot of people are running Vampiric Link as an answer to Burn instead of the other options. I've never tried it out because I'm not really a big fan of it. It can be cool to cancel out Eidolon and would be great on a delve fatty, but it is just as weak to Destructive Revelry as Dragon's Claw is. I really don't see how having 2 in the board can bring our chances against burn up by much. Has it felt good in the burn matches for those of you that run it, or is it a desperate attempt to shore up a bad matchup?
I have been a fan of Death's Shadow ever since he came up as a possible alternative. I also have 2 Dispel in the board which go a long way in keeping those final few points of damage from going through when you begin to race. Death's Shadow can come in against other aggro decks that we have trouble keeping up with, so it isn't as narrow as Link either. Was Death's Shadow written of as simply being too janky to be a good sideboard option? It is such an awesomely fun card to play with.
Part of the reason I like Vampiric Link is that its good against every agro deck *except perhaps affinity but I honestly dont get to play against that deck much*. While Death's Shadow certainly fills a similar roll I find it to be far more risky. Perhaps the best way to word it is that Link has more versatility over Shadows raw power which makes me prefer the link.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
RD1: 2-0 vs Jund
RD2: 2-1 vs Soul Sisters
RD3: 2-0 vs Infect
RD4: 2-0 vs Cruel Control
RD5: ID
RD6: ID
Quarters: 2-1 vs Cruel Control
Semis: 2-1 vs Infect (the rd6 draw)
Finals: 2-0 vs jund (the rd5 draw)
RD1: 2-0 vs Jund
RD2: 2-1 vs Soul Sisters
RD3: 2-0 vs Infect
RD4: 2-0 vs Cruel Control
RD5: ID
RD6: ID
Quarters: 2-1 vs Cruel Control
Semis: 2-1 vs Infect (the rd6 draw)
Finals: 2-0 vs jund (the rd5 draw)
Why the choice of 4 Fulminators in the sideboard? That seems a bit excessive to me.
something i wanted to try out because of how they work with kologhans command. i think a lot of the SB are cards good in a wide variety of matchups, so i was never short on cards to board in even with 4 slots reserved for that.
again, i feel the worst matchup for delver by a mile is tron and amulet, so i wanted a good SB for both
I placed in the top 32 today at SCG Milwaukee with some of our latest tech. I lost to Scapeshift and Burn #1. Won against Burn #2, RG Tron, Jund #1, Jund #2, Living End, and Infect. Rise // Fall of Tourach continued to impress. Death's Shadow was the day's MVP - they were especially great against the Living End army. I was suicidally fetch-shocking myself into oblivion to pump them.
I'm thinking that 2 Kommand and 2 Rise // Fall might be too much. 3 between the two maindeck might be best. Maybe drop 1 Kommand for another Terminate? Or a Cruel Edict or a Go For The Throat or something... I dunno, though. Talk me off the cliff..
To the Vampiric Link people - I still haven't tried out it but I'm going to counter argue it again! I promise I'll try it when I get some time.
I still like Death's Shadow though. He is truly and ultimately the best tempo play you can be making in a lot of situations, being potentially a 12/12 for 1 mana. I like to look at him like Tasigur and Angler, you have to know when to leverage him, and how much of your resource you want to sacrifice to set him up (Delving away key cards to get them out vs Life). Now obviously you aren't going to lose if you make a mistake delving away something you need, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make. Death's Shadow is a very hard card to play correctly, and I still feel like I haven't come close to playing him good enough to make an evaluation on him.
I'm not sure if he is better than Vampiric Link or Dragon's Claw in the burn MU. I think he gets the advantage of blanking however many Destructive Revelry get sided in and avoids you not gaining any life off an Angler/Tasi swing because of Atarka's Command or Skullcrack, but overall he is without a doubt more swingy and less reliable.
He can also be amazing in some of the creature based aggro matchups. I don't get to play as much as I'd like so I haven't tested it extensively, but I do sometimes side out a Delver/Young Pyromancer or two and bring him in against Affinity and Merfolk where chumping with tokens isn't very reliable or otherwise too slow to race. Going down to 3 Delvers and 2 Pyromancers to bring in two Death's Shadows has definitely helped me win some games. I will acknowledge the problem that some of these decks just go for "critical mass" type attacks where you get put in an awkward place where you can't play him one turn and it's too late when you drop him the next turn.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my notes again. I think Death's Shadow has more room to be explored as a great sideboard option to make this deck more explosive. I'm going to hop over to the old thread and re-read what other people have said about him there because I remember reading it a while back but I had not tested him at that point. I love this card because it has amazing art, amazing flavor text, and amazing flavor for a card as a whole. And it's a 13/13 for 1
If you read a little earlier, you can see 2 cards already. Void Snare and Echoing Truth both can bounce it for the turn, but unless you can counter it, there is no permanent solution in RUB/Grixis colors
I placed in the top 32 today at SCG Milwaukee with some of our latest tech. I lost to Scapeshift and Burn #1. Won against Burn #2, RG Tron, Jund #1, Jund #2, Living End, and Infect. Rise // Fall of Tourach continued to impress. Death's Shadow was the day's MVP - they were especially great against the Living End army. I was suicidally fetch-shocking myself into oblivion to pump them.
I'm thinking that 2 Kommand and 2 Rise // Fall might be too much. 3 between the two maindeck might be best. Maybe drop 1 Kommand for another Terminate? Or a Cruel Edict or a Go For The Throat or something... I dunno, though. Talk me off the cliff..
I have the same doubt. I'm going to a big tournament in about 10 days, 90% I'll play with Delver, and the only doubt I still have about my list is precisely that one. It's complicated because there are games where 2x Kolaghan and 2x Rise//Fall seems too much, but there are others where I'm glad to have both these cards in double copy. I kind of figured out I'm not cutting Command, I feel two are needed, it is a crucial card against Affinity and Jund, two MUs I want to be in my favor. So if I have to cut one, I'll probably cut one Rise//Fall. But again, I'm not sure I should. Sometimes it is the best card in the deck, and it's a great maindeck card, very versatile allowing multiples strategies and can be easily replaced in game 2 and 3 when I need more specific answers. Is is a card I always want to draw against Tron, a MU I still have issues with. I really don't know. I'm not sure a random 1x maindeck Forked Bolt would be better, nor the 4th Probe, nor the third Pyromancer.
I hear you. While I do love Rise//Fall I think you're right and cutting one is probably safer than a Kommand. You can always cast Kommand. I do not think Forked Bolt, 4th Probe, or Pyro is where we want to be.
My latest thinking has actually been going a different direction entirely: Shadow of Doubt or Trickbind. Shadow cantrips which is important, but is narrower. Trickbind has more utility (esepcially now that Living End is a thing again). Both are equally unexpected and can completely blow out the game.
To the Vampiric Link people - I still haven't tried out it but I'm going to counter argue it again! I promise I'll try it when I get some time.
I still like Death's Shadow though. He is truly and ultimately the best tempo play you can be making in a lot of situations, being potentially a 12/12 for 1 mana. I like to look at him like Tasigur and Angler, you have to know when to leverage him, and how much of your resource you want to sacrifice to set him up (Delving away key cards to get them out vs Life). Now obviously you aren't going to lose if you make a mistake delving away something you need, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make. Death's Shadow is a very hard card to play correctly, and I still feel like I haven't come close to playing him good enough to make an evaluation on him.
I'm not sure if he is better than Vampiric Link or Dragon's Claw in the burn MU. I think he gets the advantage of blanking however many Destructive Revelry get sided in and avoids you not gaining any life off an Angler/Tasi swing because of Atarka's Command or Skullcrack, but overall he is without a doubt more swingy and less reliable.
He can also be amazing in some of the creature based aggro matchups. I don't get to play as much as I'd like so I haven't tested it extensively, but I do sometimes side out a Delver/Young Pyromancer or two and bring him in against Affinity and Merfolk where chumping with tokens isn't very reliable or otherwise too slow to race. Going down to 3 Delvers and 2 Pyromancers to bring in two Death's Shadows has definitely helped me win some games. I will acknowledge the problem that some of these decks just go for "critical mass" type attacks where you get put in an awkward place where you can't play him one turn and it's too late when you drop him the next turn.
I agree, Shadow is really hard to use correctly. Hypothetical: late game, Shadow in play, topdeck shock-land, play untapped? y/n?
Shadow and Link both share one issue: they are both highly situational. Link requires a creature in play. Shadow requires you to be quite dead. When Shadow is bad, it is *really* bad. Consider drawing heavily into answers vs an aggro player. You stabilize early and are hovering around 14 or 15 life with no threats in hand than a Shadow. Link has a little bit more versatility in that you can at least cast it on your opponents creatures. But Link won't win you the game! It is worth noting the two are not mutually exclusive. In some situations both come in. I have even considered casting Link on my own Shadow (swing for 10 or something, gain 10, Shadow dies, pound in next turn for the win, etc.)
I do not like Claw. I think it is too narrow right now. I want my SB cards to be useful in multiple MUs. There aren't enough red cards in our deck to make it worth it.
I really like death's shadow. He has been my favorite SB card and I bring him in against basically any fair deck. Have not tried vampiric link but I have been so happy with shadow I don't see a need to change.
I am going to try the one kommand/2 rise // fall split. I have not actually played this deck with rise // fall in it yet but I was a big fan of them and bought a play set about 6 months ago so I am excited to give them a try. No idea if the 1/2 split is correct but I will report later.
Look, Rise // Fall is a great card. I'm not cutting it to experiment on narrow utility cards 10 days before going to the tournament.
Well said.
I often find myself digging for Terminates. I like going to 3. Upping the Probe count makes sense, too. I've thought about it all day and perfect information certainly wins games.
3 Thoughtseize on the board have been good to me. Against Tron I go +2 Moon, +3 Thoughtseize. The Seizes combined with Fall and Snaps can shred their hand pretty quick.
In general, how are you guys doing against RG Tron? Me, not very well, and I'm expecting to face this deck next week, I need a good gameplan that's different from playing all of my creatures and hope they don't have that Pyroclasm/Oblivion Stone.
I get absolutely crushed by Tron. If you think you will see a lot of Tron, I would bump the Thoughtseize count up to 3 in the sideboard. These will also be invaluable against all combo decks so I don't think your wasting SB slots.
3 Thoughtseize boarded in along with 2 MD Rise/Fall for Fall means you can rip their hand apart. Especially if you can recast them with Snappy. And between 3 Seize and 3 Probes, you'll always be looking at their hand so you won't get blindsided by an "oops, Ugin/Wormcoil"
The Seize is also a great way to test the water and remove any way for them to deal with enchatments prior to you casting your boarded in Blood Moons.
I've been playing this spicy brew for a couple weeks and have been putting up some good results. The deck has evolved quickly and this is what I've arrived at so far:
The deck is extremely fun to play. It's incredibly consistent, flexible and powerful. You sculpt the game as you go. Sometimes you are the agrro deck and other times the control deck with the flexibility to change roles within the course of a game.
The one addition I've absolutely loved is the Abbot of Keral Keep. I've liked it much more than Young Pyromancer. It's pure gas during the mid to late game and you can even play it early to dig for another land if you are stuck on two lands your third turn. If you don't hit one, don't worry about it. You're one card closer to your next land.
One concession you have to make to play Abbot is fewer counter spells. Obviously, you don't want to hit one, but Serum Visions does a nice job of setting up Abbot so hitting a counterspell doesn't happen very often. Sometimes it's actually beneficial to hit a late game Mana Leak because it probably wasn't going to be good any way and now you're one card closer to drawing something useful.
I'm thinking the sideboard could still use some work. Now that we have Rise//Fall I'm thinking the Thoughtseizes could be Vendilion Cliques and the Blood Moons could be Fulminator Mages, but that would require testing. I'm trying Rakdos Charms for dual purpose against Affinity and graveyard centric decks. Seems like Rough/Tumble, Engineered Explosives and Hurkyl's Recall as well as the main deck removal have Affinity covered so the Charms might be overkill which would allow them to become Surgical Extractions for dedicated graveyard/combo hate, but Rakdos Charms could help against Lantern Control decks. Once again more testing is required.
My first tournament with the deck I went 3-0 beating Poison, Affinity and Jund and have beaten Grishoalbrand and Tron in testing. If someone has thoroughly tested Fulminator Mages or Vendilion Cliques I would be curious to know if you thought they were viable sideboard options or not.
I'm interested in porting my Legacy deck (Grixis Delver) over to modern. What can I expect in regards to tournament performance? I see it's not T1, but does the deck get completely blown out by the T1 decks?
For example: My buddy plays Affinity, do I just get rekt by it?
I live sort-of near CFB, but I assume that the meta there is extremely competitive, so I probably won't play much there lol.
I like this answer. I am going to try Into The Roil as I do not currently have any EE. Returning it at end of turn should do the trick for the most part anyway.
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On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Part of the reason I like Vampiric Link is that its good against every agro deck *except perhaps affinity but I honestly dont get to play against that deck much*. While Death's Shadow certainly fills a similar roll I find it to be far more risky. Perhaps the best way to word it is that Link has more versatility over Shadows raw power which makes me prefer the link.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
list: http://deckstats.net/decks/3195/258326-grixis-delver
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Dispel
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Forked Bolt
1 Negate
1 Terminate
RD1: 2-0 vs Jund
RD2: 2-1 vs Soul Sisters
RD3: 2-0 vs Infect
RD4: 2-0 vs Cruel Control
RD5: ID
RD6: ID
Quarters: 2-1 vs Cruel Control
Semis: 2-1 vs Infect (the rd6 draw)
Finals: 2-0 vs jund (the rd5 draw)
Why the choice of 4 Fulminators in the sideboard? That seems a bit excessive to me.
again, i feel the worst matchup for delver by a mile is tron and amulet, so i wanted a good SB for both
I'm thinking that 2 Kommand and 2 Rise // Fall might be too much. 3 between the two maindeck might be best. Maybe drop 1 Kommand for another Terminate? Or a Cruel Edict or a Go For The Throat or something... I dunno, though. Talk me off the cliff..
Void Snare
Echoing truth
I still like Death's Shadow though. He is truly and ultimately the best tempo play you can be making in a lot of situations, being potentially a 12/12 for 1 mana. I like to look at him like Tasigur and Angler, you have to know when to leverage him, and how much of your resource you want to sacrifice to set him up (Delving away key cards to get them out vs Life). Now obviously you aren't going to lose if you make a mistake delving away something you need, but I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make. Death's Shadow is a very hard card to play correctly, and I still feel like I haven't come close to playing him good enough to make an evaluation on him.
I'm not sure if he is better than Vampiric Link or Dragon's Claw in the burn MU. I think he gets the advantage of blanking however many Destructive Revelry get sided in and avoids you not gaining any life off an Angler/Tasi swing because of Atarka's Command or Skullcrack, but overall he is without a doubt more swingy and less reliable.
He can also be amazing in some of the creature based aggro matchups. I don't get to play as much as I'd like so I haven't tested it extensively, but I do sometimes side out a Delver/Young Pyromancer or two and bring him in against Affinity and Merfolk where chumping with tokens isn't very reliable or otherwise too slow to race. Going down to 3 Delvers and 2 Pyromancers to bring in two Death's Shadows has definitely helped me win some games. I will acknowledge the problem that some of these decks just go for "critical mass" type attacks where you get put in an awkward place where you can't play him one turn and it's too late when you drop him the next turn.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my notes again. I think Death's Shadow has more room to be explored as a great sideboard option to make this deck more explosive. I'm going to hop over to the old thread and re-read what other people have said about him there because I remember reading it a while back but I had not tested him at that point. I love this card because it has amazing art, amazing flavor text, and amazing flavor for a card as a whole. And it's a 13/13 for 1
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
I hear you. While I do love Rise//Fall I think you're right and cutting one is probably safer than a Kommand. You can always cast Kommand. I do not think Forked Bolt, 4th Probe, or Pyro is where we want to be.
My latest thinking has actually been going a different direction entirely: Shadow of Doubt or Trickbind. Shadow cantrips which is important, but is narrower. Trickbind has more utility (esepcially now that Living End is a thing again). Both are equally unexpected and can completely blow out the game.
I agree, Shadow is really hard to use correctly. Hypothetical: late game, Shadow in play, topdeck shock-land, play untapped? y/n?
Shadow and Link both share one issue: they are both highly situational. Link requires a creature in play. Shadow requires you to be quite dead. When Shadow is bad, it is *really* bad. Consider drawing heavily into answers vs an aggro player. You stabilize early and are hovering around 14 or 15 life with no threats in hand than a Shadow. Link has a little bit more versatility in that you can at least cast it on your opponents creatures. But Link won't win you the game! It is worth noting the two are not mutually exclusive. In some situations both come in. I have even considered casting Link on my own Shadow (swing for 10 or something, gain 10, Shadow dies, pound in next turn for the win, etc.)
I do not like Claw. I think it is too narrow right now. I want my SB cards to be useful in multiple MUs. There aren't enough red cards in our deck to make it worth it.
Kill them.
I am going to try the one kommand/2 rise // fall split. I have not actually played this deck with rise // fall in it yet but I was a big fan of them and bought a play set about 6 months ago so I am excited to give them a try. No idea if the 1/2 split is correct but I will report later.
Well said.
I often find myself digging for Terminates. I like going to 3. Upping the Probe count makes sense, too. I've thought about it all day and perfect information certainly wins games.
3 Thoughtseize on the board have been good to me. Against Tron I go +2 Moon, +3 Thoughtseize. The Seizes combined with Fall and Snaps can shred their hand pretty quick.
I get absolutely crushed by Tron. If you think you will see a lot of Tron, I would bump the Thoughtseize count up to 3 in the sideboard. These will also be invaluable against all combo decks so I don't think your wasting SB slots.
3 Thoughtseize boarded in along with 2 MD Rise/Fall for Fall means you can rip their hand apart. Especially if you can recast them with Snappy. And between 3 Seize and 3 Probes, you'll always be looking at their hand so you won't get blindsided by an "oops, Ugin/Wormcoil"
The Seize is also a great way to test the water and remove any way for them to deal with enchatments prior to you casting your boarded in Blood Moons.
4 x Abbot of Keral Keep
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 x Gurmang Angler
4 x Serum Visions
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Thought Scour
3 x Gitaxian Probe
2 x Terminate
2 x Kolaghan's Command
2 x Mana Leak
2 x Deprive
2 x Rise//Fall
1 x Murderous Cut
1 x Electrolyze
4 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Steam Vents
2 x Island
1 x Watery Grave
1 x Blood Crypt
1 x Darkslick Shores
1 x Mountain
1 x Swamp
2 x Thoughtseize
2 x Blood Moon
2 x Rakdos Charm
2 x Spellskite
2 x Rough//Tumble
2 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Vampiric Link
1 x Hurkyl's Recall
The deck is extremely fun to play. It's incredibly consistent, flexible and powerful. You sculpt the game as you go. Sometimes you are the agrro deck and other times the control deck with the flexibility to change roles within the course of a game.
The one addition I've absolutely loved is the Abbot of Keral Keep. I've liked it much more than Young Pyromancer. It's pure gas during the mid to late game and you can even play it early to dig for another land if you are stuck on two lands your third turn. If you don't hit one, don't worry about it. You're one card closer to your next land.
One concession you have to make to play Abbot is fewer counter spells. Obviously, you don't want to hit one, but Serum Visions does a nice job of setting up Abbot so hitting a counterspell doesn't happen very often. Sometimes it's actually beneficial to hit a late game Mana Leak because it probably wasn't going to be good any way and now you're one card closer to drawing something useful.
I'm thinking the sideboard could still use some work. Now that we have Rise//Fall I'm thinking the Thoughtseizes could be Vendilion Cliques and the Blood Moons could be Fulminator Mages, but that would require testing. I'm trying Rakdos Charms for dual purpose against Affinity and graveyard centric decks. Seems like Rough/Tumble, Engineered Explosives and Hurkyl's Recall as well as the main deck removal have Affinity covered so the Charms might be overkill which would allow them to become Surgical Extractions for dedicated graveyard/combo hate, but Rakdos Charms could help against Lantern Control decks. Once again more testing is required.
My first tournament with the deck I went 3-0 beating Poison, Affinity and Jund and have beaten Grishoalbrand and Tron in testing. If someone has thoroughly tested Fulminator Mages or Vendilion Cliques I would be curious to know if you thought they were viable sideboard options or not.
For example: My buddy plays Affinity, do I just get rekt by it?
I live sort-of near CFB, but I assume that the meta there is extremely competitive, so I probably won't play much there lol.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU