Has anyone tested worship in their deck?
i am going to try a 2x , one in MB one in the side on fryday at a medium size tourney.
I'm doing it to have a chance to survive decks like eldrazi-tron and merfolks and possibly other decks against which it's not given i'll be able to be faster than them every game. Enchantments seem to me the type of spell that people is less prepared to deal with. I'm also pleased it stays over abrupt decay and kozilek inquisitions. not much, but still one point in its favour.
I actually prefer it in the UWr version of my dek where i have 3x boros charm to make my permanents indistructible, but i'll be testing it in the UW aswell, i hope it gains me that few turns i need to finish off my opponenet.
Comments welcomed
I was have the same concern and tried it and wasn't very pleased it took a little too long to get out. I'm considering the new Gideon of the Trials to serve a similar purpose though.
Am I crazy to think Dusk // Dawn could be fantastic for this deck, if built around properly? It kills all the creatures bigger than your spirits, and then lets you put all of your dead spirits back into your hand...I think it could help out significantly vs. midrange. It kills a lot of Eldrazi!
Even with pumped up spirits with power >2, sacrificing Selfless Spirit will save them all, while killing your opponent's fatties.
I've been trying out something like that after finding the vial version of the deck underwhelming. Merfolk and Death & Taxes just Vial so much better than we do, so why bother trying to force it? Here's what I'm working with:
I went in this direction because I noticed that if I could protect my Spell Quellers, I would probably win the game; and if my Spell Quellers die, my chances of losing go way up. With that in mind, I gave up on Vials and things like Metallic Mimic. I'm content to play a slower game where I sit back for the first few turns and counterspell things or Stone Rain my opponent with Shadow of Doubt (so good!) and then start to slip in Spirits when I have the mana to disrupt my opponent and cast them. I want to flash as much as possible, and put Spell Queller out of reach of removal.
People think Shadow of Doubt is Janky (and it kind of is) but no one expects it. The first time you get someone with it, they will think long and hard every other time they want to fetch. All the following are great on their own, but a single Shadow makes them so much better: Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter. I love this card. Death's Shadow hates it since it also screws up their Traverse and Ranger of Eos.
The 4 cards I see as flexible in the main are the 3x Mana Tithe and the Relic. They're all good when they're good, but it's possible I want a 5th removal spell (1 Condemn main?) and/or something like Serum Visions in these spots. I'm still testing.
Sideboard is still very much up in the air.
The deck isn't perfect, but I'm winning more with it in this meta than I was with the Vial version, and having more fun.
I've been trying out something like that after finding the vial version of the deck underwhelming. Merfolk and Death & Taxes just Vial so much better than we do, so why bother trying to force it? Here's what I'm working with:
I went in this direction because I noticed that if I could protect my Spell Quellers, I would probably win the game; and if my Spell Quellers die, my chances of losing go way up. With that in mind, I gave up on Vials and things like Metallic Mimic. I'm content to play a slower game where I sit back for the first few turns and counterspell things or Stone Rain my opponent with Shadow of Doubt (so good!) and then start to slip in Spirits when I have the mana to disrupt my opponent and cast them. I want to flash as much as possible, and put Spell Queller out of reach of removal.
People think Shadow of Doubt is Janky (and it kind of is) but no one expects it. The first time you get someone with it, they will think long and hard every other time they want to fetch. All the following are great on their own, but a single Shadow makes them so much better: Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter. I love this card. Death's Shadow hates it since it also screws up their Traverse and Ranger of Eos.
The 4 cards I see as flexible in the main are the 3x Mana Tithe and the Relic. They're all good when they're good, but it's possible I want a 5th removal spell (1 Condemn main?) and/or something like Serum Visions in these spots. I'm still testing.
Sideboard is still very much up in the air.
The deck isn't perfect, but I'm winning more with it in this meta than I was with the Vial version, and having more fun.
I'm going to test out something similar to your build just simple because I like the aether build but refuse to buy the cards IRL.
Question to the forum has anyone had any luck in U/W using a planeswalker. I feel like they are a great resource that we should have access to. I've been testing Tamiyo, the moon sage and she seems to help with some threats like Death's Shadow and Tarmogoyf and I like her draw power but i just wish she could come out a bit sooner or operate a bit more like her sister Tamiyo, Field Researcher. Any recommendations
Hi people, i'll make some points on the latest discussion:
. Starting from wraths, i have found myself in situations where 3 x board cleaners would have helped. Engineered explosives is fine, it's selective, which i like and i wouldn't go lower than 2 copies. i would actually bring back in the supreme virdict, but i won't do it since i have found a form of similar effect by playing worship. I'll stay on 2 wide removals and use the rest of the slots as single removals. Dusk//dawn is not the card i am looking for when i think of those matchups that Ketoglutarate mentioned.
. i have tested it ( worship ) , and i am pleased. Game 1 almost no one is prepared to see it, and you may be able to protect it via quellers or wanderers. it did its job and i'm thinking of moving one more copy from the side to the main. my only concern is not to draw a second copy, but still, it's benefits are really large.
I have taken the new Ggideon of the trials in consideration but i don't feel it can be any helpful for the following reasons:
-)we can't protect him. our deck attacks and should never defend
-)double white is a problem expecially on a 3 CMC card
-)worship has a 1x creature on the board condition, gideon's emblem wants gideon on the field, it's too easy to get rid of even in Game 1. this is my opinion
I have talked to a bant spirit guy, he was also playing worship and he confirmed that on game one if he casts it he 's almost certainly the winner of that one game.
This is how i mean to deal with decks rushing me. It really showed its value yesterday when i faced Burn and Affinity. The Jund player i med also told me worship forces him to play focussing on that card and its implications, he felt like his gameplay would have been warped by that cast from me.
And this is also why, answering to @DualityofBeing, i wouldn't run plainwalkers unless they could enter the field and do something really important , as much as Liliana the last hopedoes against our 2/1 creatures when she hits the board.
.@zweiducks: i checked your list, i like your idea overall. I'm not moving towards control that much, i'll do when i'll be splashing black, but still i like the idea. Mana leak is much better than remand in a 30% of the situations i say, yet you draw no card from it, so why wouldn't you sobstitute the 3x Mana tithe and the relic with 4x ancestral visions? you said you can sit comfortably for the fisrt couple of turns, plus you got rid of the 4 vials which are 1CMC drops. i think opening with an ancestral would match your plan.
I'm not dropping Aether vial in my built, but i feel i wuould jump on the ancestral visions if i had no vials and no cantrips.
. regarding shadow of doubt, i still like it and still think being able to stone rain your opponent + drawing is a major tempo advantage you can take. I'm a bit concerned about the double blue mana we must have on second turn, but i'm going to try it once again.
I tried a 2x and dropped it, but yesterday more than ever i have had a demand for more cantrips, i'd like to run a 3x shadows, not just 2x.
So, @zweiducks, please let us know more about episodes when you have casted Shadow with profit and when you would have preferred to have another card. I'm really into this card!
I'll be testing something similar to this list by the way:
(2-3 slots in my side are still to be revised to be honest. i am not sure abut the disenchant, the azorius charm and Kira in particular. I am not siding in Kira enough. if any of you wants to tell me when did they see Kira shining , i'll be gratefull )
I'm very into a Tempo strategy. My biggest concern so far is: does vapor snag fits my intentions better than PtE does ? PtE is by far the best removal, while Snags match my tempo intentions... I will need more playtesting for sure.
Hallowed moonlight, which i was enthusiastic about, hasn't been sided in enough to deserve spots in my side. I need stuff i frequently bring in. Hallowed has been too frequently a dead spor in my side, and as Denis said, creatures are better dealt with removals most of the times.
I have tested nebleghast Herald, and it did its job. I'm siding it out anyway cause i have seen how good is Eidolon of rethorics. When i have it down with vial and 2-3 cards in my hand i feel like i have made a sort of tempo-lock, my opponent has thiny chances to cast the right spell to get out of that stall. I wanna play this tempo-lock combo more frequently. I'll let you know the results!
Sorry for mistakes here and there, cba to read again, gotta go draft Amonkhet
When I tried worship personally it seemed impossible to keep. Maybe its just me but I see to face alot of grixis and other type of controlish/denial/ heavy ceature hate decks that have crap tons of removal and crap tons of board wipes. and usually by the time i can play it those decks normally have a very heavy card advantage via ancestral visions or whatever draw engine they have in the deck. Maybe I'm not siding against these decks properly. Suggestions? also just general question to most of you for example @StreexGeist in your sideboard i see many 1 copy of and 2 copy of. how do you reliably get to your answers in games 2 and 3 with only 1 and 2 copies of a card in a 60 card deck?
@StreexGeist: Thanks for all of the thoughts and feedback.
I could talk forever about how great I think Shadow of Doubt is. I am running 3, but seriously considering the 4th copy. Personally, I don't think 2 is enough because you want to see it in your first 2-3 turns for full effect. So many decks these days (I'm specifically thinking of Death's Shadow decks) run greedy mana bases and getting one of their first 3 lands with it can decide the game on the spot. To add insult to injury, you get to draw a card in the process.
The double blue cost hasn't been a problem because of the way I have set up my mana. The deck isn't very white-heavy, so once I have a single white source, I prioritize fetching for Islands. It's possible I should only be running 1 colourless land instead of 2 so I can get the 4th Hallowed Fountain in there.
Here are a few less obvious scenarios where Shadow really shines: If I have multiple in hand I will usually cycle one for the card to make my opponent believe it's safe to search, then get them with the second copy. Against decks that do a lot of searching (Traverse, Ranger, Eldrich Evolution) You can often screw up their whole turn when they don't sequence correctly. For example, opponent doesn't ever expect Shadow game 1, so they start the turn by cracking a fetch. You shadow it so they can't search, and suddenly they can't follow up with a Traverse or similar. They can next turn, but you've really messed up their mana efficiency and time walked them. The biggest advantage of the card right now is really that no one plays it, so no one ever plays around it.
Worst case scenario in game 1 is that It's "UU: Draw a card", and then you board it out. But honestly, most decks at least have fetch lands to get with it.
Regarding Ancestral Visions, I actually would try this card out if I owned a playset. But I don't. It's a little too expensive for my budget at the moment. Holding out for a reprint.
I haven't seen your build in action, but I honestly can't imagine running less than 4 PtE. Even if you're going for a tempo build with the Remands, I think that you want 4 Path and then 2 Vapor Snag as removal spells 5 and 6.
@StreexGeist Only you can decide about the Vials. I dropped mine for more spells because vial is a completely dead draw beyond turn 2 or 3. I just really don't like the feeling of drawing a vial in the middle of a crucial game when literally anything else would be more helpful.
A friend of mine plays Merfolk and it's so obvious how much better Vial is in that deck than it is in Spirits. We don't have lords like they do, and we don't have Silvergill Adept to keep our hand full.
For the 3rd Shadow I might move the Worship to the board. I see your reasoning for why you have it, but I still don't think you want it main in a tempo build.
I play 2 Kira because I have put a high priority on protecting Spell Quellers that have a card beneath them. I'm trying to control the game and make my opponent's cards worth less than mine.
A friend of mine plays Merfolk and it's so obvious how much better Vial is in that deck than it is in Spirits. We don't have lords like they do, and we don't have Silvergill Adept to keep our hand full.
To me its so obvious vial is better in spirits, because we do tricks with it. My experience with playing spirits and vial decks is we get the value back by making great plays with. Merfolk just spam the field with their stuff. We can get value by negating removal, countering stuff etc. Flash matters much more in our deck than in merfolks.
I think it depends on what your'e trying to do. A lot of decks I'm looking at in this thread is trying to aggro the heck out of the other team. The problem with that is that Spirits in general are TERRIBLE fighters. A bunch of 2/1's and 2/3's are not going to go against the likes of 4/5 Tasigurs and 7/7 Deathshadows. And this is where I'm trying to find a way to equalize this disparity, or fight back. You can't outcontrol a control deck like Sphinx's Revelation decks, Tron tears the deck apart because it's so slow, and burn and affinity is too fast.
I dont' like vial for this reason either. By turn 4 to tick up to 3 to get to the curve, it's not going to do much to flash in a Drogskul Captain, even if you already have one on the board. Sure you can get the occasional win with Worship and hexproof lock, but to me that is a weak win condition and if you're trying to do that, you may as well pack in 12 removal spells and a bunch of hexproof/indestructible creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll. And the tricks you can do seems better to be in a Death and Taxes shell instead. With the exile effects and bouncing, going a U/W vial taxes list just seems more powerful.
The biggest thing going for spirits is the defensive nature of the deck. The cards really can protect each other very very well. I think going this path would be the best way to utilize the power of spirits.
I think it depends on what your'e trying to do. A lot of decks I'm looking at in this thread is trying to aggro the heck out of the other team. The problem with that is that Spirits in general are TERRIBLE fighters. A bunch of 2/1's and 2/3's are not going to go against the likes of 4/5 Tasigurs and 7/7 Deathshadows. And this is where I'm trying to find a way to equalize this disparity, or fight back. You can't outcontrol a control deck like Sphinx's Revelation decks, Tron tears the deck apart because it's so slow, and burn and affinity is too fast.
I dont' like vial for this reason either. By turn 4 to tick up to 3 to get to the curve, it's not going to do much to flash in a Drogskul Captain, even if you already have one on the board. Sure you can get the occasional win with Worship and hexproof lock, but to me that is a weak win condition and if you're trying to do that, you may as well pack in 12 removal spells and a bunch of hexproof/indestructible creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll. And the tricks you can do seems better to be in a Death and Taxes shell instead. With the exile effects and bouncing, going a U/W vial taxes list just seems more powerful.
The biggest thing going for spirits is the defensive nature of the deck. The cards really can protect each other very very well. I think going this path would be the best way to utilize the power of spirits.
I have a very different experience from playing the deck a lot. We aggro just fine, most of the time games end fast, turn 5 kills a frequent. Yes a SINGLE 2/1 is worse than a 4/5 but you play a lot so you can swarm, even better with vial. Shpinx's rev deck are easy, don't think i lose a lot vs those. Tron the single card i care about and lose to is ugin the spirit dragon, if your opponent doesn't find it the matchup feels very winnable (still bad because they always have ugin). Don't care about shadows, we can deal the last damage in the air easily and tap down stuff with nebelgast or just path them, or chump a while with moorland haunt tokens. Burn isn't bad and affinity isn't bad either. Man sometimes i wonder if we are playing the same deck at all
The biggest thing going for spirits is the defensive nature of the deck. The cards really can protect each other very very well. I think going this path would be the best way to utilize the power of spirits.
You summed up very well what I'm trying to focus on with my build. I was never 100% convinced with Spirits as an aggro build when I was playing it. I found the most success in the games where my tricks were working, but most of those tricks don't really need Vial to work, and are better backed up with disruption spells.
I'm not trying to disrespect those who are dedicated to the aggro plan, the deck definitely has it's strengths. I just think it's missing a few key pieces to make it truly shine in this meta, and I have found more success by pivoting a little bit towards a vial-less build with more disruption.
[quote from="Underused Cards »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/678555-uw-spirits?comment=1051"]
I have a very different experience from playing the deck a lot. We aggro just fine, most of the time games end fast, turn 5 kills a frequent. Yes a SINGLE 2/1 is worse than a 4/5 but you play a lot so you can swarm, even better with vial. Shpinx's rev deck are easy, don't think i lose a lot vs those. Tron the single card i care about and lose to is ugin the spirit dragon, if your opponent doesn't find it the matchup feels very winnable (still bad because they always have ugin). Don't care about shadows, we can deal the last damage in the air easily and tap down stuff with nebelgast or just path them, or chump a while with moorland haunt tokens. Burn isn't bad and affinity isn't bad either. Man sometimes i wonder if we are playing the same deck at all
I'm not saying you can't win, because I'm winning a lot too. But I've been playing tons of games where there's turn 2 5/5 death shadows, turn 2 tasigurs, and lots of other things going on. Sure a good path to exile will win you a lot of games, but I find it interesting, you're able to get what sounds like 70% win percentage. I'm getting a lot of 50/50 on a majority of decks. I did go 4-0 this week and top 8 on an FNM so i'm sure we're both doing things correctly. But I'm still concerned with these big dudes that come out. Especially the midranged decks or Eldrazi Tron. I'm trying to find more answers, and thinking of cutting Nebelghast for more removals, like Dismember or going to Esper for Fatal Push and Thoughtseize
I know vial is still in there, but I'm not liking it a majority of time. I'm still tinkering around with it.
Easy, any hand with one drop (wanderer or vial) plus a lord will do. For exemple:
turn 1 wanderer
turn 2 two drop, swing for 2
turn 3 captain, swing for 6
turn 4 and 5 swing for 7 each turn without even playing anything else.
Thats not even the nuts, playing phantasmal image helps get these 2 lord draws for maximum damage. Add vial to that and you can get some good aggro going. When i say i frequently turn 5 my opponent i don't mean a majority of games but when the opponent doesn't find enough interaction or stumble a bit we can punish them big time with just a decent hand.
I'm not saying you can't win, because I'm winning a lot too. But I've been playing tons of games where there's turn 2 5/5 death shadows, turn 2 tasigurs, and lots of other things going on. Sure a good path to exile will win you a lot of games, but I find it interesting, you're able to get what sounds like 70% win percentage. I'm getting a lot of 50/50 on a majority of decks. I did go 4-0 this week and top 8 on an FNM so i'm sure we're both doing things correctly. But I'm still concerned with these big dudes that come out. Especially the midranged decks or Eldrazi Tron. I'm trying to find more answers, and thinking of cutting Nebelghast for more removals, like Dismember or going to Esper for Fatal Push and Thoughtseize
I know vial is still in there, but I'm not liking it a majority of time. I'm still tinkering around with it.
Yes, i'm getting slightly above 75% match win out of 149 matches since i started collecting data for my deck. Not saying this isn't an anomaly, my deck is probably well adapted to my meta, which is pretty stable since i play the same people week after week. Not saying the deck is ready to take down a big event, its still missing a few pieces for that.
We can still do pretty good with what we have, if we have humble expectations and don't try to turn this deck into something it isn't. I also think sound sideboarding has a lot to do with a lot of my wins. My worst matchups continue to be ensnaring bridge decks and tron, followed by various midrange decks which i do find to be around 50/50, which is perfectly normal for any deck.
What decks do make up your meta that you are able to maintain a 75% winrate out of 149 matches? Curious to know what you're playing against most often, as that win% is pretty insane for any deck in any meta.
What decks do make up your meta that you are able to maintain a 75% winrate out of 149 matches? Curious to know what you're playing against most often, as that win% is pretty insane for any deck in any meta.
I go at up to 4 different LGS each week when i have the time. My meta includes lots of control/midrange decks, some eldrazi decks (against which i have the most success), some combo (there used to be a lot of ad nauseam but less now), a bunch of burn/tribal aggro decks, some homebrews (a bunch of weird fringe decks that change from week to week, ppl like to brew in my area) and some amount of tron and prison (which are responsible for a lot of my losses).
Just to interject on any esper considerations i feel esper spirits is the secret to happiness. Getting to play path and fatal push while combining md worship w/ lingering souls is a beautiful thing.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Just to interject on any esper considerations i feel esper spirits is the secret to happiness. Getting to play path and fatal push while combining md worship w/ lingering souls is a beautiful thing.
To be honest, I don't think you'll need worship at all if you're playing Esper. Just some Thoughtseize/Iok, Lingering Souls, Fatal Push, and i think you're good.
@StreexGeist: Happy to see you are having good results with your deck! Congrats on living the dream and Shadow of Doubting some opponents into oblivion. Also happy you have seen the light and gone up to 4x Path.
To answer your question: if an opponent has two fetchlands in play it is very hard for you to block both of them unless the opponent misplays. Generally they will fetch, then you respond with your Shadow, and they respond to that with their second fetch. So they get get to fetch once before the Shadow resolves and blocks them from searching.
If they for some reason fetch, hold priority and activate the second fetch before searching and fetch again, then you can Shadow both when priority passes to you. It also works if they fetch and you Shadow them, then they forget about the Shadow effect and try to fetch again later in the turn. Both of these are very unlikely scenarios as they are just incorrect play sequencing so they tend not to happen. I havd had opponents forget about the Shadow effect and try to Traverse later in their turn after having a fetch blocked at the start of the turn... but that's just bad play and also almost never happens.
So just played against a Skredd Red deck, and he wrecked my manabase where i could not do a single thing. What do we have access to as a UW spirits deck to combat bloodmoons and magus of the moon?
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I was have the same concern and tried it and wasn't very pleased it took a little too long to get out. I'm considering the new Gideon of the Trials to serve a similar purpose though.
Even with pumped up spirits with power >2, sacrificing Selfless Spirit will save them all, while killing your opponent's fatties.
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Rattlechains
4x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
4x Drogskol Captain
2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
1x Archangel Avacyn
Instants (14)
4x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
3x Shadow of Doubt
3x Mana Tithe
1x Relic of Progenitus
Land (22)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Island
3x Hallowed Fountain
2x Polluted Delta
2x Plains
1x Marsh Flats
1x Moorland Haunt
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Condemn
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Pithing Needle
2x Azorius Charm
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Ghost Quarter
I went in this direction because I noticed that if I could protect my Spell Quellers, I would probably win the game; and if my Spell Quellers die, my chances of losing go way up. With that in mind, I gave up on Vials and things like Metallic Mimic. I'm content to play a slower game where I sit back for the first few turns and counterspell things or Stone Rain my opponent with Shadow of Doubt (so good!) and then start to slip in Spirits when I have the mana to disrupt my opponent and cast them. I want to flash as much as possible, and put Spell Queller out of reach of removal.
People think Shadow of Doubt is Janky (and it kind of is) but no one expects it. The first time you get someone with it, they will think long and hard every other time they want to fetch. All the following are great on their own, but a single Shadow makes them so much better: Mana Leak, Mana Tithe, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter. I love this card. Death's Shadow hates it since it also screws up their Traverse and Ranger of Eos.
The 4 cards I see as flexible in the main are the 3x Mana Tithe and the Relic. They're all good when they're good, but it's possible I want a 5th removal spell (1 Condemn main?) and/or something like Serum Visions in these spots. I'm still testing.
Sideboard is still very much up in the air.
The deck isn't perfect, but I'm winning more with it in this meta than I was with the Vial version, and having more fun.
I'm going to test out something similar to your build just simple because I like the aether build but refuse to buy the cards IRL.
Question to the forum has anyone had any luck in U/W using a planeswalker. I feel like they are a great resource that we should have access to. I've been testing Tamiyo, the moon sage and she seems to help with some threats like Death's Shadow and Tarmogoyf and I like her draw power but i just wish she could come out a bit sooner or operate a bit more like her sister Tamiyo, Field Researcher. Any recommendations
When I tried worship personally it seemed impossible to keep. Maybe its just me but I see to face alot of grixis and other type of controlish/denial/ heavy ceature hate decks that have crap tons of removal and crap tons of board wipes. and usually by the time i can play it those decks normally have a very heavy card advantage via ancestral visions or whatever draw engine they have in the deck. Maybe I'm not siding against these decks properly. Suggestions? also just general question to most of you for example @StreexGeist in your sideboard i see many 1 copy of and 2 copy of. how do you reliably get to your answers in games 2 and 3 with only 1 and 2 copies of a card in a 60 card deck?
I could talk forever about how great I think Shadow of Doubt is. I am running 3, but seriously considering the 4th copy. Personally, I don't think 2 is enough because you want to see it in your first 2-3 turns for full effect. So many decks these days (I'm specifically thinking of Death's Shadow decks) run greedy mana bases and getting one of their first 3 lands with it can decide the game on the spot. To add insult to injury, you get to draw a card in the process.
The double blue cost hasn't been a problem because of the way I have set up my mana. The deck isn't very white-heavy, so once I have a single white source, I prioritize fetching for Islands. It's possible I should only be running 1 colourless land instead of 2 so I can get the 4th Hallowed Fountain in there.
Here are a few less obvious scenarios where Shadow really shines: If I have multiple in hand I will usually cycle one for the card to make my opponent believe it's safe to search, then get them with the second copy. Against decks that do a lot of searching (Traverse, Ranger, Eldrich Evolution) You can often screw up their whole turn when they don't sequence correctly. For example, opponent doesn't ever expect Shadow game 1, so they start the turn by cracking a fetch. You shadow it so they can't search, and suddenly they can't follow up with a Traverse or similar. They can next turn, but you've really messed up their mana efficiency and time walked them. The biggest advantage of the card right now is really that no one plays it, so no one ever plays around it.
Worst case scenario in game 1 is that It's "UU: Draw a card", and then you board it out. But honestly, most decks at least have fetch lands to get with it.
Regarding Ancestral Visions, I actually would try this card out if I owned a playset. But I don't. It's a little too expensive for my budget at the moment. Holding out for a reprint.
I haven't seen your build in action, but I honestly can't imagine running less than 4 PtE. Even if you're going for a tempo build with the Remands, I think that you want 4 Path and then 2 Vapor Snag as removal spells 5 and 6.
A friend of mine plays Merfolk and it's so obvious how much better Vial is in that deck than it is in Spirits. We don't have lords like they do, and we don't have Silvergill Adept to keep our hand full.
For the 3rd Shadow I might move the Worship to the board. I see your reasoning for why you have it, but I still don't think you want it main in a tempo build.
I play 2 Kira because I have put a high priority on protecting Spell Quellers that have a card beneath them. I'm trying to control the game and make my opponent's cards worth less than mine.
To me its so obvious vial is better in spirits, because we do tricks with it. My experience with playing spirits and vial decks is we get the value back by making great plays with. Merfolk just spam the field with their stuff. We can get value by negating removal, countering stuff etc. Flash matters much more in our deck than in merfolks.
I dont' like vial for this reason either. By turn 4 to tick up to 3 to get to the curve, it's not going to do much to flash in a Drogskul Captain, even if you already have one on the board. Sure you can get the occasional win with Worship and hexproof lock, but to me that is a weak win condition and if you're trying to do that, you may as well pack in 12 removal spells and a bunch of hexproof/indestructible creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll. And the tricks you can do seems better to be in a Death and Taxes shell instead. With the exile effects and bouncing, going a U/W vial taxes list just seems more powerful.
The biggest thing going for spirits is the defensive nature of the deck. The cards really can protect each other very very well. I think going this path would be the best way to utilize the power of spirits.
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I have a very different experience from playing the deck a lot. We aggro just fine, most of the time games end fast, turn 5 kills a frequent. Yes a SINGLE 2/1 is worse than a 4/5 but you play a lot so you can swarm, even better with vial. Shpinx's rev deck are easy, don't think i lose a lot vs those. Tron the single card i care about and lose to is ugin the spirit dragon, if your opponent doesn't find it the matchup feels very winnable (still bad because they always have ugin). Don't care about shadows, we can deal the last damage in the air easily and tap down stuff with nebelgast or just path them, or chump a while with moorland haunt tokens. Burn isn't bad and affinity isn't bad either. Man sometimes i wonder if we are playing the same deck at all
You summed up very well what I'm trying to focus on with my build. I was never 100% convinced with Spirits as an aggro build when I was playing it. I found the most success in the games where my tricks were working, but most of those tricks don't really need Vial to work, and are better backed up with disruption spells.
I'm not trying to disrespect those who are dedicated to the aggro plan, the deck definitely has it's strengths. I just think it's missing a few key pieces to make it truly shine in this meta, and I have found more success by pivoting a little bit towards a vial-less build with more disruption.
I'm not saying you can't win, because I'm winning a lot too. But I've been playing tons of games where there's turn 2 5/5 death shadows, turn 2 tasigurs, and lots of other things going on. Sure a good path to exile will win you a lot of games, but I find it interesting, you're able to get what sounds like 70% win percentage. I'm getting a lot of 50/50 on a majority of decks. I did go 4-0 this week and top 8 on an FNM so i'm sure we're both doing things correctly. But I'm still concerned with these big dudes that come out. Especially the midranged decks or Eldrazi Tron. I'm trying to find more answers, and thinking of cutting Nebelghast for more removals, like Dismember or going to Esper for Fatal Push and Thoughtseize
I know vial is still in there, but I'm not liking it a majority of time. I'm still tinkering around with it.
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Seachrome coast
2 Moorland haunt
1 Gavony Township
4 Rattlechains
4 Spell Queller
4 Drogskol captain
3 Nebelgast Herald
3 Selfless Spirit
1 Fogwalker
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Spectral Shepherd
1 Shape Stealer
4 Path to exile
2 Detention Sphere
There are some cards I'm trying out like Shape Stealer, since as I stated earlier, tons of big creatures are in my meta.
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my current list (same one i posted a while ago):
4 path to exile
artifacts: 4
4 aether vial
2 smuggler's copter
creatures: 28
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 selfless spirit
4 rattlechains
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 phantasmal image
4 spell queller
4 drogskol captain
4 nebelgast herald
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 windswept heath
2 hallowed fountain
2 plains
2 island
3 seachrome coast
2 cavern of souls
2 moorland haunt
1 ghost quarter
2 echoing truth
2 blessed alliance
2 ceremonious rejection
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 eidolon of rhetoric
1 Kira, great glass-spinner
Easy, any hand with one drop (wanderer or vial) plus a lord will do. For exemple:
turn 1 wanderer
turn 2 two drop, swing for 2
turn 3 captain, swing for 6
turn 4 and 5 swing for 7 each turn without even playing anything else.
Thats not even the nuts, playing phantasmal image helps get these 2 lord draws for maximum damage. Add vial to that and you can get some good aggro going. When i say i frequently turn 5 my opponent i don't mean a majority of games but when the opponent doesn't find enough interaction or stumble a bit we can punish them big time with just a decent hand.
Yes, i'm getting slightly above 75% match win out of 149 matches since i started collecting data for my deck. Not saying this isn't an anomaly, my deck is probably well adapted to my meta, which is pretty stable since i play the same people week after week. Not saying the deck is ready to take down a big event, its still missing a few pieces for that.
We can still do pretty good with what we have, if we have humble expectations and don't try to turn this deck into something it isn't. I also think sound sideboarding has a lot to do with a lot of my wins. My worst matchups continue to be ensnaring bridge decks and tron, followed by various midrange decks which i do find to be around 50/50, which is perfectly normal for any deck.
I go at up to 4 different LGS each week when i have the time. My meta includes lots of control/midrange decks, some eldrazi decks (against which i have the most success), some combo (there used to be a lot of ad nauseam but less now), a bunch of burn/tribal aggro decks, some homebrews (a bunch of weird fringe decks that change from week to week, ppl like to brew in my area) and some amount of tron and prison (which are responsible for a lot of my losses).
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
To be honest, I don't think you'll need worship at all if you're playing Esper. Just some Thoughtseize/Iok, Lingering Souls, Fatal Push, and i think you're good.
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To answer your question: if an opponent has two fetchlands in play it is very hard for you to block both of them unless the opponent misplays. Generally they will fetch, then you respond with your Shadow, and they respond to that with their second fetch. So they get get to fetch once before the Shadow resolves and blocks them from searching.
If they for some reason fetch, hold priority and activate the second fetch before searching and fetch again, then you can Shadow both when priority passes to you. It also works if they fetch and you Shadow them, then they forget about the Shadow effect and try to fetch again later in the turn. Both of these are very unlikely scenarios as they are just incorrect play sequencing so they tend not to happen. I havd had opponents forget about the Shadow effect and try to Traverse later in their turn after having a fetch blocked at the start of the turn... but that's just bad play and also almost never happens.