@ Shinny Shinny.
Thats actually a pretty solid idea.
What do you think of this situation.
melira + Sac outlet + persist guy in play
Order of play
P1 sac persist guy
Persist hits the stack
Sac trigger hits the stack ( guy is still in graveyard )
P2 kills melira, she dies before the persist guy comes back into play, thus negating her ability.
the persist guy would come back, but with a -1-1 counter. It seems that our combo is pretty weak to spot removal like any other creature based combo.
What do we do to ensure shes not gibbed? Run lightning greaves?
What you generally do is wait until the coast is clear to attempt to combo off. Unless you're close to death you can wait until the most opportune moment.
I mean I guess it could be harder for some Melira decks to combo off in the face of spot removal. One of the benefits of running the project x combo in my deck as well as the main combo is that Saffi Eriksdotter does a pretty good job of protecting Melira. Also the fact that I run instant speed tutor in the form of Chord of Calling help me out greatly when I pull the trigger to combo. I can either tutor for Saffi to save Melira or allow the Melira to die and get another one to replace it before the persist trigger resolves.
Though even without those cards I'd imagine it should be too difficult to combo, especially if you run hand disruption.
Although it has a +1/+1 counter, it still has the -1/-1 counter. Am I right?
Yes it works, +1+1 cancels -1-1 counter ^^! also, having reveillark works as another crypt champion and can can return almost the entire deck to the field after a reset, bringing back the missing pieces of the combo to the field...
Nobody has said anything about it or used it, so I'd like to point out that Greater gargadon can be a good sac outlet. The cool thing is that it's a 1 mana uncounterable sac outlet.
I'm just spitting out ideas here, but I think that somewhere down the line, a 2 color version of this deck might be a good metagame choice. Without having to use all of the sac/shock lands we keep the life advantage against zoo, have more life to spare against rdw if that ever gets played. More notably, you can be almost entirely safe against blood moon and possibly maindeck it.
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Nobody has said anything about it or used it, so I'd like to point out that Greater gargadon can be a good sac outlet. The cool thing is that it's a 1 mana uncounterable sac outlet.
I'm just spitting out ideas here, but I think that somewhere down the line, a 2 color version of this deck might be a good metagame choice. Without having to use all of the sac/shock lands we keep the life advantage against zoo, have more life to spare against rdw if that ever gets played. More notably, you can be almost entirely safe against blood moon and possibly maindeck it.
Greater Gargadon is a 1 mana un-counterable, un-removable (eat it, Wrath of God!) sac outlet that virtually has shroud. It's an awesome choice for Jund versions. And yes, you can sac a Persist dude to it infinite times.
A GB or GR version might be okay. The GR version will have to lean heavily on Greater Gargadon, Green Sun's Zenith'd Scarland Thrinax, Jinxed Idol, and Blasting Station as sac outlets, though. GB sounds promising, though. A fairly bad matchup for this deck is actually RDW--we lose a bunch of life to our lands, then they burn Melira to death on sight. Your targeted discard has to eliminate their targeted removal, and if you see a hand with two Lightning Bolts, you're greatly slowed down. At least there's the Kitchen Finks beatdown plan, though.
@ Lectrys; I agree, testing this out. RDW beat me 4 of the 5 games I played. The match up doesn't get better game 2. Our list is so tight there just isn't room for much SB hate
Im playing a version with only creatures, using the manabase of dark bant Ancient Ziggurat + Reflecting Pool plus Bloodbraided, Gaddock Tegg, Kira etc etc, ill post a decklist later with some results... of course uses Gargadon, Melira, Finks, Redcap, Glen elendra, Lark, Saffi, Champion, Juniper n Sculler... still working on it...
Greater Gargadon is a 1 mana un-counterable, un-removable (eat it, Wrath of God!) sac outlet that virtually has shroud. It's an awesome choice for Jund versions. And yes, you can sac a Persist dude to it infinite times.
A GB or GR version might be okay. The GR version will have to lean heavily on Greater Gargadon, Green Sun's Zenith'd Scarland Thrinax, Jinxed Idol, and Blasting Station as sac outlets, though. GB sounds promising, though. A fairly bad matchup for this deck is actually RDW--we lose a bunch of life to our lands, then they burn Melira to death on sight. Your targeted discard has to eliminate their targeted removal, and if you see a hand with two Lightning Bolts, you're greatly slowed down. At least there's the Kitchen Finks beatdown plan, though.
If RDW is a problem matchup I could suggest a few things:
1. The less sac/shock/pain lands fix a lot of things.
2. Have a decent aggro or midrange backup plan (actually the combo should be the backup plan imo).
3. Play tarmogoyf as a 4 of. It's two burn spells not pointed at you.
4. Play bloodbraid elf as a 4 of. it helps you win faster.
5. Lifegain.
6. If you play white, leyline of sanctity out of the board nulls burn to the face.
7. Chalice of the void on 1 out of the board. This is mainly for heavy burn. Use your own judgement.
A few more things to talk about:
Primal command, is really good if you hit 5 mana. It fins you a combo piece, and buys you time against any kind of aggro deck. It's graveyard hate too, if that ever becomes relevant.
Oran-reif or whatever it's called land with kitchen finks sounds like a good idea if it hasn't already been suggested.
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Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
Sideboard isn't even close to final, it's just something I tossed together to test out. I went with R/G to allow me to run a few more basics. Dryad Arbor is there as a Zenith target that allows quicker wins with the potential extra mana. Chord of Calling is a great way to find a missing piece at instant speed, and with 4 Birds and 4 Arbors with Zenith you can easily hit the 7 you need to get your biggest piece (Redcap) or the 6 & 5 for any other piece. x4 Gargodon with Commune seems to work for providing a consistent outlet, and if worse comes to worse your creatures + Punishing Fire can win you the game.
I played a few matches against a Domain Zoo build today that went very well. The key was not fetching into shock lands unless you had to, so I was mostly fetching for basics. Finks and Savehold Elite do a good job of buying time and any persist guy can block all day with Melira on the board.
I was also running Aether Vial maindeck and it was amazing. I could flash guys in during combat, at EoT. It enabled me to drop multiple combo pieces in a single turn (one of many reasons why I like Viscera Seer). Another use I found for it was flashing in a second Melira in situations where the first got blown up when I was trying to combo.
@Honir I wouldn't run 4 Dryad Arbor. The only time I would want to see the card is if I GSZ for it on turn one. Otherwise the summoning sick factor and the fact that I wouldn't want to turn bolt into a one mana stone rain.
yeah. Im generally on the, try to make more basics, band wagon. 12 post has every one and their brother spamming main deck LD. I almost want to just go pure RG with blood moon and such. All the damage from shock lands is detrimental with RDW being as strong as it is. I think that hitting my consistency a tad for not starting the game at 14-17 life is worth it.
With regards to Melira's weakness to removal, I've been using Power Conduit in a casual build since before NPH. Remove a -1/-1 from one persist guy, and put +1/+1 on another, negating his -1/-1. It can't go infinite, but you can get a ton of damage in with a couple of Redcaps and a Blasting Station.
This deck has the advantage of being control vs aggro and aggro vs control (albeit a little slow). But against zoo I think it's perfectly viable to hide behind a redcap and a finks and keep regenerating them with Power Conduit.
Updated List. Removed the Punishing Fire Tech for a more Combo-Oriented build and have had much better results. This also allowed me to free up the mana base for a more Blood Moon resistant deck.
The Sideboard is a bit more tuned now. Relic for GY hate, Slagstorm is strictly better then Firespout and easily accessible in the mana base. Shusher makes 12-Post and Control a much easier time. Ghost Quarter and Grip seem like solid choices as well. In the MD I have to say that Aether Vial has been amazing at allowing you to combo quicker by dropping multiple pieces at once.
Have people though about playing Wall of Roots or Overgrown Battlement? I think with the announcement that zoo had 1/4 the top 16 at that magic league event that it will be the most common deck. Plus it lost almost nothing in the Legacy transition
Goblin Bombardment is not Modern Legal, otherwise I would be using it instead of Bloodthrone Vampire. I dont see any reason to add Wall of Roots or Overgrown Battlement. I personally thought of Birds as a wasted deck slot myself, since most of the deck is 2-3 drops.
I have not had any problems with zoo at all (deck looks to be about a 70% favor pre-board). The persist guys can buy plenty of time to get the combo online and the deck folds once you gain infinite life.
EDIT: I was thinking about Evil Presence as a sideboard option for 12post. It could be good against a lot of other match ups where your opponent is reliant on having a third color as well.
I built this deck, didn't like how it played though. I think it will get worse as people learn how to play against it. It is really easy to disrupt when you know what to look for, I found myself relying on my opponent not to know what to kill and when to stop me from going off a lot.
There are a lot of different routes to go with this deck. I have been having a lot of success being able to disrupt my opponents hands with cards like Thoughtseize and Duress. What kind of build were you running?
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What you generally do is wait until the coast is clear to attempt to combo off. Unless you're close to death you can wait until the most opportune moment.
I mean I guess it could be harder for some Melira decks to combo off in the face of spot removal. One of the benefits of running the project x combo in my deck as well as the main combo is that Saffi Eriksdotter does a pretty good job of protecting Melira. Also the fact that I run instant speed tutor in the form of Chord of Calling help me out greatly when I pull the trigger to combo. I can either tutor for Saffi to save Melira or allow the Melira to die and get another one to replace it before the persist trigger resolves.
Though even without those cards I'd imagine it should be too difficult to combo, especially if you run hand disruption.
No, I believe it was the M10 changes that make -1/-1 and +1/+1 counters cancel out.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Viscera Seer
1 Scarland Thrinax
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Commune with Nature
23 Lands
Yes it works, +1+1 cancels -1-1 counter ^^! also, having reveillark works as another crypt champion and can can return almost the entire deck to the field after a reset, bringing back the missing pieces of the combo to the field...
I'm just spitting out ideas here, but I think that somewhere down the line, a 2 color version of this deck might be a good metagame choice. Without having to use all of the sac/shock lands we keep the life advantage against zoo, have more life to spare against rdw if that ever gets played. More notably, you can be almost entirely safe against blood moon and possibly maindeck it.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
Greater Gargadon is a 1 mana un-counterable, un-removable (eat it, Wrath of God!) sac outlet that virtually has shroud. It's an awesome choice for Jund versions. And yes, you can sac a Persist dude to it infinite times.
A GB or GR version might be okay. The GR version will have to lean heavily on Greater Gargadon, Green Sun's Zenith'd Scarland Thrinax, Jinxed Idol, and Blasting Station as sac outlets, though. GB sounds promising, though. A fairly bad matchup for this deck is actually RDW--we lose a bunch of life to our lands, then they burn Melira to death on sight. Your targeted discard has to eliminate their targeted removal, and if you see a hand with two Lightning Bolts, you're greatly slowed down. At least there's the Kitchen Finks beatdown plan, though.
If RDW is a problem matchup I could suggest a few things:
1. The less sac/shock/pain lands fix a lot of things.
2. Have a decent aggro or midrange backup plan (actually the combo should be the backup plan imo).
3. Play tarmogoyf as a 4 of. It's two burn spells not pointed at you.
4. Play bloodbraid elf as a 4 of. it helps you win faster.
5. Lifegain.
6. If you play white, leyline of sanctity out of the board nulls burn to the face.
7. Chalice of the void on 1 out of the board. This is mainly for heavy burn. Use your own judgement.
A few more things to talk about:
Primal command, is really good if you hit 5 mana. It fins you a combo piece, and buys you time against any kind of aggro deck. It's graveyard hate too, if that ever becomes relevant.
Oran-reif or whatever it's called land with kitchen finks sounds like a good idea if it hasn't already been suggested.
Best video games of all time:
4. Metal Gear Solid
3. Super Mario 64
2. Ocarina of Time
1. Cave Story
^ Seriously, play it and thank me later.
3 Forest
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Stomping Ground
Creatures
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Murderous Redcap
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Commune with Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
4 Chord of Calling
3 Nature's Claim
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Summoning Trap
3 Shattering Spree
3 Slagstorm
Sideboard isn't even close to final, it's just something I tossed together to test out. I went with R/G to allow me to run a few more basics. Dryad Arbor is there as a Zenith target that allows quicker wins with the potential extra mana. Chord of Calling is a great way to find a missing piece at instant speed, and with 4 Birds and 4 Arbors with Zenith you can easily hit the 7 you need to get your biggest piece (Redcap) or the 6 & 5 for any other piece. x4 Gargodon with Commune seems to work for providing a consistent outlet, and if worse comes to worse your creatures + Punishing Fire can win you the game.
I was also running Aether Vial maindeck and it was amazing. I could flash guys in during combat, at EoT. It enabled me to drop multiple combo pieces in a single turn (one of many reasons why I like Viscera Seer). Another use I found for it was flashing in a second Melira in situations where the first got blown up when I was trying to combo.
went 2-1 in 3 matches (1-2, 2-0, 2-0)
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More trouble than it's worth.
@Honir I wouldn't run 4 Dryad Arbor. The only time I would want to see the card is if I GSZ for it on turn one. Otherwise the summoning sick factor and the fact that I wouldn't want to turn bolt into a one mana stone rain.
This deck has the advantage of being control vs aggro and aggro vs control (albeit a little slow). But against zoo I think it's perfectly viable to hide behind a redcap and a finks and keep regenerating them with Power Conduit.
Just a thought.
Pauper:
WW White Weenie WW
6 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Arid Mesa
4 Stomping Ground
Creatures
4 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Murderous Redcap
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Commune with Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Chord of Calling
4 Aether Vial
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Slagstorm
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Krosan Grip
The Sideboard is a bit more tuned now. Relic for GY hate, Slagstorm is strictly better then Firespout and easily accessible in the mana base. Shusher makes 12-Post and Control a much easier time. Ghost Quarter and Grip seem like solid choices as well. In the MD I have to say that Aether Vial has been amazing at allowing you to combo quicker by dropping multiple pieces at once.
Have people though about playing Wall of Roots or Overgrown Battlement? I think with the announcement that zoo had 1/4 the top 16 at that magic league event that it will be the most common deck. Plus it lost almost nothing in the Legacy transition
I have not had any problems with zoo at all (deck looks to be about a 70% favor pre-board). The persist guys can buy plenty of time to get the combo online and the deck folds once you gain infinite life.
EDIT: I was thinking about Evil Presence as a sideboard option for 12post. It could be good against a lot of other match ups where your opponent is reliant on having a third color as well.
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Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
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