I just had a match where they T0 Leyline, T2 Stony. I won. I got the Self replicator out, then spent 2 turns casting 1's and 0's and creating replicators, then used Grid and beats to win.
But again, even in that very specific situation how is Replicator better? If you see Leyline and Stony you're already on the Antiquities/Grid alternate win plan. I can't see a situation where it isn't win-more. I'll echo dudemanthing, it does nothing without trawler and is almost uncastable without KCI, spitting out 2/2's just isn't strong enough until you're already winning or would be anyways with the retriever you are dropping to play it.
RW Blaze Commando Soldier Swarm BW Edgewalker Clerics i.e. All the prevention R Ogre Menial (Fallen Feromancer) Tunnelin' Infectors GB Shaman of the Pack Elves URReclusive Artificer Artifact Control GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
Tiny Leader Decks
WU Geist of Saint Traft WKembha's Cats WRG Marath Slide Control
But again, even in that very specific situation how is Replicator better? If you see Leyline and Stony you're already on the Antiquities/Grid alternate win plan. I can't see a situation where it isn't win-more. I'll echo dudemanthing, it does nothing without trawler and is almost uncastable without KCI, spitting out 2/2's just isn't strong enough until you're already winning or would be anyways with the retriever you are dropping to play it.
I agree with this assessment, on the understanding that as of yet, I haven't tested the card myself. I do however have a lot of time playing different builds of this deck and upon seeing the replicator, I was initially intrigued but running through the permutations in my head lead to me dismissing the card for being too initially expensive.
The nail in the coffin though is that retriever does stuff by itself and rebuilds the combo through disruption, whereas replicator is just another "needs trawler" piece.
I fully expect people to try it, and for a copy to maybe turn up in a top8 list at some point. However unless I see it actually add meaningful win percentage to the deck I won't be adopting this tech. Don't let that dissuade you though. If you want to try it, try it. Just be very honest with yourself if it doesn't work out as well as you'd hoped. And if it's amazing over a large sample size (notably better than retriever) I will offer the same courtesy of being honest with myself.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
To me, it's the fact that Replicator is both a Retriever and a Mox as far as the combo is concerned. It can infinitely recur a single egg without needing a Mox. Retriever needs a Mox to go infinite. So KCI, Trawler, Retriever, Egg, Mox vs. KCI, Trawler, Replicator, Egg. It is quite literally 2 cards in 1 when you go off, until you start needing to ping them, anyway. And with Grid or Aetherflux, you never need anything else. Hell, with Grid or Aetherflux, you don't even need an actual egg. Pyrite with no red mana, or a Mox with no Egg/Pyrite gets you there. Could also run Altar of the Brood to have a non-targeting kill.
To me, it's the fact that Replicator is both a Retriever and a Mox as far as the combo is concerned. It can infinitely recur a single egg without needing a Mox. Retriever needs a Mox to go infinite. So KCI, Trawler, Retriever, Egg, Mox vs. KCI, Trawler, Replicator, Egg. It is quite literally 2 cards in 1 when you go off, until you start needing to ping them, anyway. And with Grid or Aetherflux, you never need anything else. Hell, with Grid or Aetherflux, you don't even need an actual egg. Pyrite with no red mana, or a Mox with no Egg/Pyrite gets you there. Could also run Altar of the Brood to have a non-targeting kill.
None of that works without having a trawler on the field though.
There's a lot of niche lines of play where you end-step tutor a retriever with the kaladesh land and just win. There's also numerous ways to sack stuff in response to artifact removal, then cast retriever with a load of mana and continue to go off. Retriever is eternal witness for our deck and replicator rather than providing resilience just adds another card completely reliant on trawler.
However, i recognise the value of seeing something play out irl rather than just blindly theorycrafting, so as I said before: if it proves to be brilliant I'll offer you the courtesy of adopting the card and helping the deck to evolve.
But I won't accept fragments of anecdotes about how good it was that one time, at this stage we need large sample size testing and proper matchup analysis with a like for like comparison. How much of a percentage do you lose by dropping retriever against jund or mardu midrange? This is the kind of thing we need to know and like I also said before, if you're testing this card you need to be brutally honest about its pitfalls as well as those times it does a good thing. At the moment it seems like you're hyped on the card and that's fine, but you won't get me following your lead until you've settled down and done the real work. That's when deck development truly starts.
I wish you luck. Try to write down notes on your matches and play as many as you can, noting those games where retriever would have been preferable and when replicator was superior. We can chat over the results and compare notes in the weeks to come. I look forward to hearing what you come back with =)
I agree it needs testing. It seemed dismissed instantly, though (not necessarily by you). I'm running a 1/1 split with Retriever, and I've already seen 5-0 lists that ran a single Retriever, so tutoring Retriever with Inventors' Faire still works. The really interesting line (that I'm not sure is good) is Altar of the Brood. Testing it in Forge and MODO, it interacts really oddly. Specifically, if you have a Replicator out and cast something, you get a 2nd for 1, then if you cast a spell, you get 2 for 2. This makes mill happen REALLY fast.
My thoughts: it gets through Leyline, but not Stony. It makes the RiP matchup easier with Grid (cast 1 artifact, get a second, cast a second, get 2 more, so assuming the 5 mana to cast it, if you untap with it and grid, that 5 mana turns into 6 artifacts, which on the Grid plan is basically virtual card advantage).
It DOES require Trawler to get something back, but I have definitely run in to a LOT of situations where I have to go off earlier than I'd like and Trawler + Retriever is easier to fizzle.
It also lets you play around Relic easier. E.g. Relic (or Crypt, or Scooze, or whatever) on the field, you can cast a few artifacts to get several extra Replicators on the field, then when you go off, you can respond to their triggers with additional sacs. Sacs that can get anything back that you need.
There are also some strange lines you can do with it. For instance, I used Spellbomb to blow up a copy of it to get back the KCI that have been Claimed. Sure, Retriever can do that, but that uses up Retriever, and again, I have both.
5 seems expensive, but we're seldom having mana issues when going off. And the ability to cast a 1-drop and us that to get backa 2-drop with no cards lost sounds powerful. I will admit that it needs a LOT more testing. But I am hoping to convince others to test it too. I'm also one of the people pushing the Bird in Cheerios, but I can't get to GPs, PPTQs, SCGs, etc., so I need to get others to help test new tech.
Cons:
it's expensive
it doesn't do anything alone
Pros:
it goes infinite with 1 fewer card
it is a win-con in itself
it's virtual card advantage
it's less picky about the cards it needs to go infinite
Would just like to bring up that there are a bunch of loops that don't need Opal at all. Assuming trawler and KCI are out,
Retriever and any two 1CMC eggs
Double retriever
Extra trawler + retriever + egg + EE
I bricked a few times on Tuesday from drawing replicator where a retriever would have represented another two draws from a wellspring in the yard. It was weird cuz you're normally never bottlenecked on mana during combo turns but 5 was awkward to find when I had to go off without trawler in play yet. Still trying it for now, just seems awfully narrow. I'm almost feeling like Wurmcoil does similar things while also being a good plan B on its own, and I wouldn't play a MD Wurmcoil yet. Giving replicator benefit of doubt. Have more modern weeklies tomorrow and Friday so hopefully will get a better gauge on this.
One of the biggest barriers for me entering this deck has been the MTGO timer. You can get in games where you literally don't have enough time to win, and this happens more often than non-MTGO players might expect. I noticed the recent MTGO League lists had a KCI build with 3 Mishra's Self Replicators in it. Upon testing the card, I think I know why it's there. Not only is it a resilient win condition and an alternate engine besides Retriver, it also gives you a sizable army through GY hate (assumin you have a few artifacts in hand), AND it is a much faster win than Spellbomb looping. Has anyone else found this to be the case?
Also, if there are any MTGO pilots of this deck, I'd love to hear your tips about executing the loops and engine faster and more efficiently.
I run Aetherflux Reservoir on MTGO to speed it up. It does mean that I have to keep an open Inventors' Fair a lot of the time to tutor it up. The deck is definitely worse on MODO than on paper. You also can't look with an Opal on MODO like you can in paper.
I can’t speak to Mishra’s self replicator, but I play the deck both online and on paper. The online clock is tough, there are a lot of clicks to power through. What is your wincon? I’ve found Aetherflux Reservoir to be the fastest online, it can be tutored and is cheap to cast. I recommend practicing loops in solitaire mode on MTGO, timing yourself. I rarely take more than 8 minutes to combo off, usually much less. If I can keep each game to 8 minutes that’s enough for 3 games. Once I have 4-6 generic mana and 1-2 green and blue for Cantrips I leave the 0 cmc artifacts in my hand to reduce the targets for triggers, helps a little bit.
How do y'all keep track of spells played before you even get to Aetherflux Reservoir? Say you're looping and after 5-6 draws, you get to the reservoir and then cast it (with floating mana) and now you're gaining massive life with each cast trigger. Is it assumed like a storm count IRL then? Keep track of that like you're keeping track of mana?
Hey guys, new to this deck but it seems insanely powerful/resilient. However, do you guys think with the popularity of mardu pyro that surgical extraction is a real treat to the deck? how would you combat it? and how would be the best way to next level it?
Not too big a deal, try not to let any combo pieces hit the graveyard until you have KCI/Trawler out. With enough of a board you can respond by returning the piece with a trawler trigger. consider alternate wincons like Ghirapur Aether Grid, Wurmcoil, Antiquities War. T1 Thoughtsieze into surgical hitting KCI or Trawler can be brutal but it won’t happen every time.
I don’t run Reservoir on paper, only online. On paper you can demonstrate the loop and go infinite so pyrite spell bomb is effective and efficient.
I have found many games to be scrappy and interactive in paper. This leads to quite a few games where going infinite isn't really possible, so much as just churning through a section of your deck.
For that reason, I still run the emrakul package, although I've tweaked it to lower the overall footprint in the deck.
2 or 3x sanctum
2x hangarback
1x emrakul
It works fine. Often you just draw emmy anyway and that's GG. the spellbomb win for my purposes has been too easy to disrupt with cards like surgical or meddling mage. I'm not saying it's bad, of course. Just that my experience of it is that it's more fragile than emrakul and doesn't have an alternative 'brute force' option when opponents have interrupted your fine clockwork machine. To win with spellbomb you have to fully go off. Emrakul is actually very easy to just cast.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Emrakul is definitely easier to cast, but he can be disrupted as well. Merfolk Trickster Interacts effectively, and you have to remember instant speed whir for Ensnaring Bridge is a thing. I would say I’ve had more games where emrakul is a dead card in hand and I can’t combo off vs games where I just hit 15 mana and slam him. pyrite spellbomb drawn me enough cards to get there on numerous occasions. I have tried a build more focused on finding/playing emrakul with hangarback walkers and sanctum but I feel the deck is more consistent and effective with pyrite.
Hitting the combo through disruption isn’t too hard, usually if they are disrupting you then they have a slow clock, just drop lands and eggs until the pieces line up. Inventors Fair is an MVP. I think streamlining the combo is more important mainboard than adding a wincon that doesn’t do anything until you cast it, but there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I think if you're running Emrakul, you have to minimize the package like that. Having said that, I'm not convinced eating up slots with it is the right move. You only really need to play around the narrow hate in games 2 and 3, and most of the time can just assume that game 1 they can't get rid of both Spellbombs. Something like Scavenging Ooze isn't good enough when you start going off.
I've had enough games where Emrakul just rots in hand and could have been an egg or Myr Retriever. During the combo turn they're functionally the same, since they're dead the moment you draw Retriever with KCI + Trawler in play. Same reason I'm not convinced you need anything besides Retriever + Spellbomb in paper. Normally Sanctum is also a pretty low opportunity cost, but bumping it up to 4 Buried Ruin along the 3 Inventors' Fair is so stupidly good and makes combo turns even more brain-dead. As in, they better have 3 Cryptics in hand to stop you.
Vs. discard + Surgical decks, I like trying to keep hands that are all air without key combo pieces. I've been mulling to heavy cantrip + Stirrings hands to play around Surgical and only going for it after they blow their load on something irrelevant. Can do things like keep up Buried Ruin mana while going off since they don't tend to race too quickly.
You're trying to plaster humans with EE anyway and they won't name Spellbomb with Meddling Mage. I agree that most games have a lot more back and forth than you would expect from a linear combo deck. There's a ton of wiggle room with this deck to just grind them out with Trawler + Spellbomb/EE until KCI shows up. Games 2 and 3 I bring in Blasts and Grids anyway, so even if Spellbomb gets blanked I can kill em with Grid loops. In other matchups with relevant disruption I think a lot of the cards I would bring in anyway happen to double as alternate wincons (Wurmcoil, Ant War, Aether Grid), even though the main reason they're coming in is just to play around hate or grind them out. Serving as a backup kill plan when they Relic both Spellbombs is just gravy.
I totally agree with the above post. I will say I run 2 buried ruins, in favor of Green producing lands for nature’s Claim through Stony but B. Ruins makes it so resilient to discard/counters/removal so I suppose it’s a meta call.
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EDIT: nvm found it on mtggoldfish
I'm gonna spend the 0.50 to pick one up and try this on Tuesday since it seems tilting and might be fun to beat them down with Plan B 2/2 army
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
EDH DECKS:
GBCatacomb Sifter Sac-Attack
I agree with this assessment, on the understanding that as of yet, I haven't tested the card myself. I do however have a lot of time playing different builds of this deck and upon seeing the replicator, I was initially intrigued but running through the permutations in my head lead to me dismissing the card for being too initially expensive.
The nail in the coffin though is that retriever does stuff by itself and rebuilds the combo through disruption, whereas replicator is just another "needs trawler" piece.
I fully expect people to try it, and for a copy to maybe turn up in a top8 list at some point. However unless I see it actually add meaningful win percentage to the deck I won't be adopting this tech. Don't let that dissuade you though. If you want to try it, try it. Just be very honest with yourself if it doesn't work out as well as you'd hoped. And if it's amazing over a large sample size (notably better than retriever) I will offer the same courtesy of being honest with myself.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
None of that works without having a trawler on the field though.
There's a lot of niche lines of play where you end-step tutor a retriever with the kaladesh land and just win. There's also numerous ways to sack stuff in response to artifact removal, then cast retriever with a load of mana and continue to go off. Retriever is eternal witness for our deck and replicator rather than providing resilience just adds another card completely reliant on trawler.
However, i recognise the value of seeing something play out irl rather than just blindly theorycrafting, so as I said before: if it proves to be brilliant I'll offer you the courtesy of adopting the card and helping the deck to evolve.
But I won't accept fragments of anecdotes about how good it was that one time, at this stage we need large sample size testing and proper matchup analysis with a like for like comparison. How much of a percentage do you lose by dropping retriever against jund or mardu midrange? This is the kind of thing we need to know and like I also said before, if you're testing this card you need to be brutally honest about its pitfalls as well as those times it does a good thing. At the moment it seems like you're hyped on the card and that's fine, but you won't get me following your lead until you've settled down and done the real work. That's when deck development truly starts.
I wish you luck. Try to write down notes on your matches and play as many as you can, noting those games where retriever would have been preferable and when replicator was superior. We can chat over the results and compare notes in the weeks to come. I look forward to hearing what you come back with =)
My thoughts: it gets through Leyline, but not Stony. It makes the RiP matchup easier with Grid (cast 1 artifact, get a second, cast a second, get 2 more, so assuming the 5 mana to cast it, if you untap with it and grid, that 5 mana turns into 6 artifacts, which on the Grid plan is basically virtual card advantage).
It DOES require Trawler to get something back, but I have definitely run in to a LOT of situations where I have to go off earlier than I'd like and Trawler + Retriever is easier to fizzle.
It also lets you play around Relic easier. E.g. Relic (or Crypt, or Scooze, or whatever) on the field, you can cast a few artifacts to get several extra Replicators on the field, then when you go off, you can respond to their triggers with additional sacs. Sacs that can get anything back that you need.
There are also some strange lines you can do with it. For instance, I used Spellbomb to blow up a copy of it to get back the KCI that have been Claimed. Sure, Retriever can do that, but that uses up Retriever, and again, I have both.
5 seems expensive, but we're seldom having mana issues when going off. And the ability to cast a 1-drop and us that to get backa 2-drop with no cards lost sounds powerful. I will admit that it needs a LOT more testing. But I am hoping to convince others to test it too. I'm also one of the people pushing the Bird in Cheerios, but I can't get to GPs, PPTQs, SCGs, etc., so I need to get others to help test new tech.
Cons:
it's expensive
it doesn't do anything alone
Pros:
it goes infinite with 1 fewer card
it is a win-con in itself
it's virtual card advantage
it's less picky about the cards it needs to go infinite
Also, it's in the winning list from SCG Columbia: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-modern-iq-columbia-2018-05-13#paper
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
Retriever and any two 1CMC eggs
Double retriever
Extra trawler + retriever + egg + EE
I bricked a few times on Tuesday from drawing replicator where a retriever would have represented another two draws from a wellspring in the yard. It was weird cuz you're normally never bottlenecked on mana during combo turns but 5 was awkward to find when I had to go off without trawler in play yet. Still trying it for now, just seems awfully narrow. I'm almost feeling like Wurmcoil does similar things while also being a good plan B on its own, and I wouldn't play a MD Wurmcoil yet. Giving replicator benefit of doubt. Have more modern weeklies tomorrow and Friday so hopefully will get a better gauge on this.
Also, if there are any MTGO pilots of this deck, I'd love to hear your tips about executing the loops and engine faster and more efficiently.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
But, yes. You'd track it like storm count.
Affinity
GR Eggs GR
UR Storm UR
BR Hollow One BR
WUR Cheerios WUR
G Mono-Green Control G
I have found many games to be scrappy and interactive in paper. This leads to quite a few games where going infinite isn't really possible, so much as just churning through a section of your deck.
For that reason, I still run the emrakul package, although I've tweaked it to lower the overall footprint in the deck.
2 or 3x sanctum
2x hangarback
1x emrakul
It works fine. Often you just draw emmy anyway and that's GG. the spellbomb win for my purposes has been too easy to disrupt with cards like surgical or meddling mage. I'm not saying it's bad, of course. Just that my experience of it is that it's more fragile than emrakul and doesn't have an alternative 'brute force' option when opponents have interrupted your fine clockwork machine. To win with spellbomb you have to fully go off. Emrakul is actually very easy to just cast.
Hitting the combo through disruption isn’t too hard, usually if they are disrupting you then they have a slow clock, just drop lands and eggs until the pieces line up. Inventors Fair is an MVP. I think streamlining the combo is more important mainboard than adding a wincon that doesn’t do anything until you cast it, but there’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I've had enough games where Emrakul just rots in hand and could have been an egg or Myr Retriever. During the combo turn they're functionally the same, since they're dead the moment you draw Retriever with KCI + Trawler in play. Same reason I'm not convinced you need anything besides Retriever + Spellbomb in paper. Normally Sanctum is also a pretty low opportunity cost, but bumping it up to 4 Buried Ruin along the 3 Inventors' Fair is so stupidly good and makes combo turns even more brain-dead. As in, they better have 3 Cryptics in hand to stop you.
Vs. discard + Surgical decks, I like trying to keep hands that are all air without key combo pieces. I've been mulling to heavy cantrip + Stirrings hands to play around Surgical and only going for it after they blow their load on something irrelevant. Can do things like keep up Buried Ruin mana while going off since they don't tend to race too quickly.
You're trying to plaster humans with EE anyway and they won't name Spellbomb with Meddling Mage. I agree that most games have a lot more back and forth than you would expect from a linear combo deck. There's a ton of wiggle room with this deck to just grind them out with Trawler + Spellbomb/EE until KCI shows up. Games 2 and 3 I bring in Blasts and Grids anyway, so even if Spellbomb gets blanked I can kill em with Grid loops. In other matchups with relevant disruption I think a lot of the cards I would bring in anyway happen to double as alternate wincons (Wurmcoil, Ant War, Aether Grid), even though the main reason they're coming in is just to play around hate or grind them out. Serving as a backup kill plan when they Relic both Spellbombs is just gravy.
EDIT got ninjad