I don't know what you attempt to accomplish by bashing a player with nearly 200 pro points and more GP top 8s then Finkel.
Read what you quoted with more acuity then because I give the reason for my cynicism pretty clearly. I could easily ask the same question of you, since I at least have a greater context that actually relates to the topic of discussion. Defend the credibility of your favourites by private message if you are not capable or interested in making it relevant to the thread.
ANYWAY,
The manabase is definitely the deck's biggest detractor and the white could probably be cut fairly easily- no? A miniscule green splash for the functional tranquil domain reprint could help with the bogle match if it is a concern.
Ok well that is a total tap out style deck, and was relying on 2 powerful banned cards! 5 color vivid control has not seen much success in modern, and I assure you this deck would have a much harder time vs combo than teachings. Black is the obv color to shave you don't needit till turn 6!
On Waffo he is a great piolet much more than a solid deck builder.
Sadly the hex proof deck is an unwinnable mu that poped up at the same time. Tempest of light also has value vs blood moon. Porphyry Nodes Can slow them down a fair bit or evn just good ol Tribute to hunger with a bolt for dryad arbor. Engineered explosives has consistently been great for me in all my control decks too.
Read what you quoted with more acuity then because I give the reason for my cynicism pretty clearly. I could easily ask the same question of you, since I at least have a greater context that actually relates to the topic of discussion. Defend the credibility of your favourites by private message if you are not capable or interested in making it relevant to the thread.
ANYWAY,
The manabase is definitely the deck's biggest detractor and the white could probably be cut fairly easily- no? A miniscule green splash for the functional tranquil domain reprint could help with the bogle match if it is a concern.
Except you'd lose Esper Charm? One of the biggest reasons to play the deck is Esper Charm and Timely as options. If you're not really going to contribute, then why post at all?
I did a little math with the cumulative hyper-geometric distribution function to see how many red sources, on average, is probably enough, and with 12 red sources in the list, let's say, you're 81% to have at least one red source on the play in your opener, and 85% on the draw. By Turn 3, you're 89% on the play, and 91% on the draw. Going up to 13 red sources changes these numbers, respectively, to 84%, 88%, 91%, and 93%.
Now, the percentage of these hands that are keepable is slightly less, but those numbers are still pretty high. Perhaps the deck needs another red source, but it's close, and to be honest, I really haven't had any trouble yet. Perhaps I'm on the luckier end, and Rickster has run into some bad ones.
Except you'd lose Esper Charm? One of the biggest reasons to play the deck is Esper Charm and Timely as options. If you're not really going to contribute, then why post at all?
Yeah esper charm really holds the deck together. It helps you get out of mulligans, and helps you beat red/green tron without main decking surgical extraction. It lets you catch up or pull ahead. It's a good top deck most of the time.
Also you need white sun zenith to win. This isn't the deck for blue sun zenith.
I did a little math with the cumulative hyper-geometric distribution function to see how many red sources, on average, is probably enough, and with 12 red sources in the list, let's say, you're 81% to have at least one red source on the play in your opener, and 85% on the draw. By Turn 3, you're 89% on the play, and 91% on the draw. Going up to 13 red sources changes these numbers, respectively, to 84%, 88%, 91%, and 93%.
All the link does is tell you the ratio of colored lands to play. But it does seem like this deck could play one less white source and one more red source. Your man land swap suggestion does this, but I'm still hoping for a better solution.
Yeah I have no idea. Though I could certainly calculate what number of red sources gives you near 100%, but I fear that that number might be quite large. My calculations, of course, did not consider Remand or Esper Charm drawing you more cards either.
How has Supreme Verdict been? Consume the Meek has been quite good for me, hitting man-lands and allowing me to EOT and untap into a clear board as well. Has not being able to tutor for a board-sweeper been relevant?
Haven't play too many games with the deck lately. I bought and played the bogle deck then sold the cards for profit. My sample size is too small to say whether the change has hurt me or not. I did beat affinity without CtM so there's that.
I'm guessing that the number of times I wish I could tutor for it and or abuse the instant speed nature will be around equal to the times I need the uncounter-ability and cheaper casting cost. And then there are other differences like the mana cost, and being able to hit 4cc + creatures.
In Round 1 he lost 1-2 to UG Infect - none of the games were close.
In Round 2 he won 2-0 vs. Grixis Teachings. The other guy had some odd card choices though, MD Rakdos Charm and Wurmcoil Engines, and appeared to suffer from the lack of Esper Charms.
In Round 3 he beat RG Tron 2-0. Game 1 he quickly offloaded some dead cyclers like Wall of Omens and 3 Electrolyzes while the guy attempted to find the third Tron land. Sylvan Scying and Expedition Map were countered, and a few Tron lands were bounced. Eventually 5 cats and a two Colonnades got it down the turn the Tron guy hardcast a Wurmcoil Engine. Game 2 was closer, as Wafo Tapa mulled to 6 on the draw. His opponent again struggled to assemble Karn, but late managed to pull off both Karn and Ulamog, just in time to lose to 5 cats.
Round 4 was 2-0 vs. Souls Sisters, neither game being particularly close - MD Izzet Staticaster was the most savage beating I've literally ever seen. In G1 the guy tried O-Ringing it, and Guillaume bounced it with a Cryptic Command, forcing the guy to O-Ring his own Honor of the Pure. It game two he got it, but Esper Charm on O-Ring was a fairly large blowout.
A few notes about the list. The mana looks the same as we've discussed previously, but it appears he's testing Wall of Omens, Mana Leak instead of Remand, and has 3 Teachings instead of two now. Izzet Staticaster appears to be main - and too awesome to mentally even handle for me - half the time it's just an Electrolyze without the draw a card, but that's repeatable. Really excited about this tech! I still saw Lightning Bolt, Izzet Charm, and Electrolyze, so it's possible he's just cutting down on the number of these for 3 Walls or so. Also possible that he doesn't have the Consume the Meek MD anyway, but I'm not sure.
Oh thanks for reminding me to look at replays. I'll record the tron match. I think people are hesitant to play control decks since they're supposedly bad against RG tron. Maybe I can get Cuneo to play this deck.
I also noticed Matt Costa was in that daily. He's play 4 color as well, with main deck IoK, basic mountain, path, izzet charm, esper charm, cryptic. His user name is _cryptic
COOL! I had a feeling Walls and Staticaster would be good! I've had her in my board for some time but main is balzy! But just look at all the top decks, TONS of small creatures and thats why this deck has a solid shot vs the meta. I dont even hate the Tron MU so much either, you can counter all the threats and bounce their lands to keep them far off Emrakul and set up one lethal swing easily. I think Tempest of Light is a solid SB card as it fights Blood Moon, Bogle and Twin reasonably. Or possibly just a bunch of Spellskite is the best anser for Infect, Bogle, Burn, and Twin all are quite bad MUs. Rakdos charm is also something I had considered even main deck, graveyard decks are also quite problematic.
I played this deck for a few days. I think it sucks - it's really bad. You just have a lot of weird matchups and cards that are dead at times. Tron is decent, jund is rough, I don't see how you ever beat affinity. You also can't beat blood moon ever unless you get really lucky.
Maybe his changes to the deck will make it better, but I've played it a bunch and even against it a bunch and it just seems objectively worse than twin, jund, or some of the other tier-1 decks. Sorry to be negative, but I did test probably 100 matches and it just wasn't good enough.
Nothing other that the first ptq list. I think his list today might get published. Wizards only publishes 1 daily result a day, which is the daily that had the most people in it. He played in 2 dailies. So odds are good that his latest list gets published.
I played this deck for a few days. I think it sucks - it's really bad. You just have a lot of weird matchups and cards that are dead at times. Tron is decent, jund is rough, I don't see how you ever beat affinity. You also can't beat blood moon ever unless you get really lucky.
Maybe his changes to the deck will make it better, but I've played it a bunch and even against it a bunch and it just seems objectively worse than twin, jund, or some of the other tier-1 decks. Sorry to be negative, but I did test probably 100 matches and it just wasn't good enough.
I don't see how card draw and hard counters are bad. Did you play against an underworld dreamscavern of souls deck? This deck has tons of creature removal, you should win more games against affinity than you lose. Creature removal is also good against jund, and your deck makes their removal useless. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.
Yes blood moon hoses this deck, but there are so few decks that play it, twin and jank decks. The twin match up is already bad so them playing blood moon is irrelevant. Affinity might play it, but it's so bad in their deck, shuts off their 8 man lands. I don't think blood moon is that big of a deal unless you always play against twin or jank.
I've also tested some against Affinity. Electrolyze kicks their butt. Hit X/1's or anything in response to a Plating equip. Board wipe if you need to stabilize further, and Sphinx's Revelation usually gets you out of Galvanic Blast range. Counter Etched Champion, as it's tough to deal with otherwise. I was surprised how often it won against Affinity pre-board.
Post-board may get rough. Blood Moon may as well be a 3-mana red Armageddon. It cuts us off Cryptic Command and more unless we counter or destroy it. (Affinity is supremely well-positioned post-Armageddon, as they have a board and we don't.)
I also found this deck doesn't get rough-horsed by Jund pre-board (unlike some of my other control brews--they had abysmal match-ups). Even if you don't start off with Esper Charm or Teachings, your other cantrips can generally help you get there. It helps when those cantrips delay their stuff (Remand) or kill their smaller guys (Electrolyze). Electrolyze is so good against Lingering Souls that you may never need the board wipe. Dealing with Liliana OTV is tricky, though--she's a must-counter, and figuring out whether you want Izzet Charm to kill Bob/Deathrite or be saved for Liliana can be awkward.
...At least one of Red's strengths is being able to deal with resolved planeswalkers. A resolved Liliana will make us discard stuff and sometimes lose guys, but you can at least throw burn at her to kill her before she ults.
I don't see how card draw and hard counters are bad. Did you play against an underworld dreamscavern of souls deck? This deck has tons of creature removal, you should win more games against affinity than you lose. Creature removal is also good against jund, and your deck makes their removal useless. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.
It's called actually playing with and against the deck a lot, instead of theorizing why certain cards may be good. Electrolyze won't help you against etched champion, and blood moon is very good in affinity. They really don't need their manlands when you can't cast any spells. They just lock out of the game and you have no way to deal with it.
I'm not taking about what "should" happen, I'm telling you the results of playing in daily events and on magic online in general. I've played in a bunch of these events with wafo as well, as he has not 3-1ed all of them, I can assure you. He and I both 2-2ed the same daily with the same deck. We even both lost to the same affinity player in the tournament.
If you want to go on salvation to theorize about why a card might be good and construct ideal scenarios where you always have electrolyze at the perfect time and blood moon isn't a problem for this deck, you can feel free to live in that world. I'll live in the world where I invest time and money (tickets) into the deck, play it against the field, and come to conclusions.
This is why I hate this website sometimes. You try to give people good information from your testing, or at least your opinion...even if you disagree, you should at least try to figure out why this problems might exist instead of just denying that they exist.
Next time I test a deck and come to conclusions, I'll just keep it to myself and my friends. There's really no point in trying to contribute to a community where people think so lowly of my time and commitment to a format as to just ignore the amount of effort I put into making a deck work.
If you want to go on salvation to theorize about why a card might be good and construct ideal scenarios where you always have electrolyze at the perfect time and blood moon isn't a problem for this deck, you can feel free to live in that world. I'll live in the world where I invest time and money (tickets) into the deck, play it against the field, and come to conclusions.
This is why I hate this website sometimes. You try to give people good information from your testing, or at least your opinion...even if you disagree, you should at least try to figure out why this problems might exist instead of just denying that they exist.
Next time I test a deck and come to conclusions, I'll just keep it to myself and my friends. There's really no point in trying to contribute to a community where people think so lowly of my time and commitment to a format as to just ignore the amount of effort I put into making a deck work.
Do you also use strawman arguments with your friends as well?
Starting off your post saying the deck sucks is not proper etiquette. I'm not sure what responses you expected with that line. And you didn't say where you were testing this deck and that you invested money in it and lost a bunch with it. If you started out saying, "I don't like this deck spent money on it and I keep losing with it, here's how I lose..." people would have sympathy for you and give you tips on how to improve your play or give you some changes you can make to the deck, or tell you those are some bad beats and to keep trying the deck etc...
Lol lectrys's posts basically cover all the useful info you reported...with less distaste for the deck; so maybe more basic blue white and black sources to accommodate esper charm? It can help handle blood moon if ppl expect one or two
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Has anyone tested Rewind? Before W-T unveiled his list in the PTQ I was on 3 Cryptic Command and 1 Rewind, and Rewind always felt like a huge beating. Being able to jam two Counterspells in a turn was nice, but it also opens you up to Rewind and Teachings on the same turn, Esper Charm, Vendilion Clique, or even just a removal spell or Snapcaster + Burn to the face. You probably lose a little bit of game against creature decks where Tap/Draw is the mode, but I think I'm at least going to test it.
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Read what you quoted with more acuity then because I give the reason for my cynicism pretty clearly. I could easily ask the same question of you, since I at least have a greater context that actually relates to the topic of discussion. Defend the credibility of your favourites by private message if you are not capable or interested in making it relevant to the thread.
ANYWAY,
The manabase is definitely the deck's biggest detractor and the white could probably be cut fairly easily- no? A miniscule green splash for the functional tranquil domain reprint could help with the bogle match if it is a concern.
On Waffo he is a great piolet much more than a solid deck builder.
Sadly the hex proof deck is an unwinnable mu that poped up at the same time.
Tempest of light also has value vs blood moon.
Porphyry Nodes Can slow them down a fair bit or evn just good ol Tribute to hunger with a bolt for dryad arbor.
Engineered explosives has consistently been great for me in all my control decks too.
Except you'd lose Esper Charm? One of the biggest reasons to play the deck is Esper Charm and Timely as options. If you're not really going to contribute, then why post at all?
Now, the percentage of these hands that are keepable is slightly less, but those numbers are still pretty high. Perhaps the deck needs another red source, but it's close, and to be honest, I really haven't had any trouble yet. Perhaps I'm on the luckier end, and Rickster has run into some bad ones.
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Yeah esper charm really holds the deck together. It helps you get out of mulligans, and helps you beat red/green tron without main decking surgical extraction. It lets you catch up or pull ahead. It's a good top deck most of the time.
Also you need white sun zenith to win. This isn't the deck for blue sun zenith.
Do you know what's considered an acceptable percentage? I asked a question about building mana bases before and all I got was this link:
http://puremtgo.com/articles/explorations-22-simple-land-calculator
All the link does is tell you the ratio of colored lands to play. But it does seem like this deck could play one less white source and one more red source. Your man land swap suggestion does this, but I'm still hoping for a better solution.
How has Supreme Verdict been? Consume the Meek has been quite good for me, hitting man-lands and allowing me to EOT and untap into a clear board as well. Has not being able to tutor for a board-sweeper been relevant?
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I'm guessing that the number of times I wish I could tutor for it and or abuse the instant speed nature will be around equal to the times I need the uncounter-ability and cheaper casting cost. And then there are other differences like the mana cost, and being able to hit 4cc + creatures.
In Round 1 he lost 1-2 to UG Infect - none of the games were close.
In Round 2 he won 2-0 vs. Grixis Teachings. The other guy had some odd card choices though, MD Rakdos Charm and Wurmcoil Engines, and appeared to suffer from the lack of Esper Charms.
In Round 3 he beat RG Tron 2-0. Game 1 he quickly offloaded some dead cyclers like Wall of Omens and 3 Electrolyzes while the guy attempted to find the third Tron land. Sylvan Scying and Expedition Map were countered, and a few Tron lands were bounced. Eventually 5 cats and a two Colonnades got it down the turn the Tron guy hardcast a Wurmcoil Engine. Game 2 was closer, as Wafo Tapa mulled to 6 on the draw. His opponent again struggled to assemble Karn, but late managed to pull off both Karn and Ulamog, just in time to lose to 5 cats.
Round 4 was 2-0 vs. Souls Sisters, neither game being particularly close - MD Izzet Staticaster was the most savage beating I've literally ever seen. In G1 the guy tried O-Ringing it, and Guillaume bounced it with a Cryptic Command, forcing the guy to O-Ring his own Honor of the Pure. It game two he got it, but Esper Charm on O-Ring was a fairly large blowout.
A few notes about the list. The mana looks the same as we've discussed previously, but it appears he's testing Wall of Omens, Mana Leak instead of Remand, and has 3 Teachings instead of two now. Izzet Staticaster appears to be main - and too awesome to mentally even handle for me - half the time it's just an Electrolyze without the draw a card, but that's repeatable. Really excited about this tech! I still saw Lightning Bolt, Izzet Charm, and Electrolyze, so it's possible he's just cutting down on the number of these for 3 Walls or so. Also possible that he doesn't have the Consume the Meek MD anyway, but I'm not sure.
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I also noticed Matt Costa was in that daily. He's play 4 color as well, with main deck IoK, basic mountain, path, izzet charm, esper charm, cryptic. His user name is _cryptic
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Maybe his changes to the deck will make it better, but I've played it a bunch and even against it a bunch and it just seems objectively worse than twin, jund, or some of the other tier-1 decks. Sorry to be negative, but I did test probably 100 matches and it just wasn't good enough.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Nothing other that the first ptq list. I think his list today might get published. Wizards only publishes 1 daily result a day, which is the daily that had the most people in it. He played in 2 dailies. So odds are good that his latest list gets published.
I don't see how card draw and hard counters are bad. Did you play against an underworld dreams cavern of souls deck? This deck has tons of creature removal, you should win more games against affinity than you lose. Creature removal is also good against jund, and your deck makes their removal useless. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.
Yes blood moon hoses this deck, but there are so few decks that play it, twin and jank decks. The twin match up is already bad so them playing blood moon is irrelevant. Affinity might play it, but it's so bad in their deck, shuts off their 8 man lands. I don't think blood moon is that big of a deal unless you always play against twin or jank.
Post-board may get rough. Blood Moon may as well be a 3-mana red Armageddon. It cuts us off Cryptic Command and more unless we counter or destroy it. (Affinity is supremely well-positioned post-Armageddon, as they have a board and we don't.)
I also found this deck doesn't get rough-horsed by Jund pre-board (unlike some of my other control brews--they had abysmal match-ups). Even if you don't start off with Esper Charm or Teachings, your other cantrips can generally help you get there. It helps when those cantrips delay their stuff (Remand) or kill their smaller guys (Electrolyze). Electrolyze is so good against Lingering Souls that you may never need the board wipe. Dealing with Liliana OTV is tricky, though--she's a must-counter, and figuring out whether you want Izzet Charm to kill Bob/Deathrite or be saved for Liliana can be awkward.
...At least one of Red's strengths is being able to deal with resolved planeswalkers. A resolved Liliana will make us discard stuff and sometimes lose guys, but you can at least throw burn at her to kill her before she ults.
It's called actually playing with and against the deck a lot, instead of theorizing why certain cards may be good. Electrolyze won't help you against etched champion, and blood moon is very good in affinity. They really don't need their manlands when you can't cast any spells. They just lock out of the game and you have no way to deal with it.
I'm not taking about what "should" happen, I'm telling you the results of playing in daily events and on magic online in general. I've played in a bunch of these events with wafo as well, as he has not 3-1ed all of them, I can assure you. He and I both 2-2ed the same daily with the same deck. We even both lost to the same affinity player in the tournament.
If you want to go on salvation to theorize about why a card might be good and construct ideal scenarios where you always have electrolyze at the perfect time and blood moon isn't a problem for this deck, you can feel free to live in that world. I'll live in the world where I invest time and money (tickets) into the deck, play it against the field, and come to conclusions.
This is why I hate this website sometimes. You try to give people good information from your testing, or at least your opinion...even if you disagree, you should at least try to figure out why this problems might exist instead of just denying that they exist.
Next time I test a deck and come to conclusions, I'll just keep it to myself and my friends. There's really no point in trying to contribute to a community where people think so lowly of my time and commitment to a format as to just ignore the amount of effort I put into making a deck work.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Do you also use strawman arguments with your friends as well?
Starting off your post saying the deck sucks is not proper etiquette. I'm not sure what responses you expected with that line. And you didn't say where you were testing this deck and that you invested money in it and lost a bunch with it. If you started out saying, "I don't like this deck spent money on it and I keep losing with it, here's how I lose..." people would have sympathy for you and give you tips on how to improve your play or give you some changes you can make to the deck, or tell you those are some bad beats and to keep trying the deck etc...
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
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