Ok so big B&R announcement today, for those who missed it: BBE and JTMS are unbanned.
Now chances are we're not playing either of the two but it's worth considering the impact it has on our end from splash damage. From what I can see, it looks like the unbans will shift the format towards a more general midrange feel, something that is good on our end. But JTMS does boost blue control decks and that means more counterspells. I'm already sitting on 3 ricochet traps in the SB but perhaps choke or boil might be worth considering if it becomes too oppressive.
I looked forward to hearing this banned announcement today so I could come on here and say 2 things.
1 - No, you should not run BBE in your Living End deck. Move on. Yes I know it can hit a cascade into violent outburst into LE, giving you a board full of junk and a 3/2 haste. Most of the time it wont and most of the time its dead. Youll hit Simian Spirit guides and beast withins quite a lot. It is not the direction we need to go in.
2 - BBE is going to be in Gruul Beatdown lists and it will do really well there. I know people have mentioned Jund but I am far more worried to see a bunch of haste creatures early on followed by Bloodbraid into boggart-ram gang / Flame wake Phoenix / hells thunder / Lathnu Hellion / Scab clan Berzewrker / Flames of the blood hand than I am them hitting a dark confidant or a goyf. You should be wary of it because there will be a fair number of games where it's just a surprise 3-7 damage to the dome.
1 - No, you should not run BBE in your Living End deck. Move on. Yes I know it can hit a cascade into violent outburst into LE, giving you a board full of junk and a 3/2 haste. Most of the time it wont and most of the time its dead. Youll hit Simian Spirit guides and beast withins quite a lot. It is not the direction we need to go in.
I showed up again just to reiterate this, but you beat me to it.
EDIT: I added some notes on BBE to the primer so hopefully we won't have to keep talking about it every six weeks.
19 lands instead of 18, which means putting one Faerie Macabre elsewhere, but where exactly?
Krosan Grip or 3rd Beast Within in Side?
3 Ingot Chewers or 3 Shriekmaw( leaning toward more Shriekmaws, I believe I'll see at least one Humans decks. Affinity, I'm not so sure. and Shriekmaw covers more decks. But I've never see a list with only two Ingot Chewers and there may be a reason for that.)
Do not hesitate to share what you think of it and all that, that's my first very big Modern Tournament!
These B&R changes seem... Ill-advised? Anyway, we play the format they give us.
I think these will really restrict the diversity of midrange decks, even if they do make them more common (not something I'm entirely sure they will do so). It feels very hard to justify not playing blue or red in you black midrange strategy now--there's just immense power lost in each, so why would you ever go without both? Looking at Reid Duke's top 6 list as an example, it's hard to see how the deck can justify not playing Elf over Lingering Souls and Stony Silence.
This is probably good for us in some respects and bad in others. A reduction in abzan means less unconditional removal and certainly fewer or even no rest in peace. That's good, but the fact that Jund decks will have a little bit more to come back off a living end and generally pressure is not a great sign.
Zoo may also now have a competitive advantage with Humans in some metas and make a partial comeback. Good news.
I'm really confused by what to make of Jace entering the format. He's never been here before, so we have no data on what decks looked like with him. He probably, however, incentivizes more counterspells in control decks and ones with a slightly more top end focused approach. So we could be in for something like the old UWR days of yore when they could only kill you with Colonnade.
I fear BBE far more than Jace. BBE can close out games on turn 4 or earlier if they play ramp. There are a lot of new threats R/G decks can cascade into that just didn't exist in yonder year. Atarka's command alone is pretty scary for us.
Jace, to be a threat in relevant turns for us, has to tap out on turn 4. This format simply does not have free counterspells like the formats where he was broken (misstep, Force, Daze) that a blue player can afford to do that, unless those decks take to running disrupting shoal, Chalice of the Void, and Ancestral visions to try and freeroll our Living ends. We have answers to counter based decks (Choke and Boil are legal) so I am not worried about him.
Related to that, has anyone run choke in the board? I'm thinking against a blue opponent it is probably better than beast within number 4, especially if on turn one they play something off an island and I can run one out with an SSG while their mana is tapped, I just wonder how many blue decks really run that many island as opposed to fast lands or man lands. The other fear I have is how many of those decks are running spreading seas which would turn it around on me.
I'm really confused by what to make of Jace entering the format. He's never been here before, so we have no data on what decks looked like with him. He probably, however, incentivizes more counterspells in control decks and ones with a slightly more top end focused approach. So we could be in for something like the old UWR days of yore when they could only kill you with Colonnade.
There were Jace decks in Extended when Living End first became a thing. Granted, a few of them are no longer decks (Dark Depths), but it's a place to start.
I fear BBE far more than Jace. BBE can close out games on turn 4 or earlier if they play ramp. There are a lot of new threats R/G decks can cascade into that just didn't exist in yonder year. Atarka's command alone is pretty scary for us.
Jace, to be a threat in relevant turns for us, has to tap out on turn 4. This format simply does not have free counterspells like the formats where he was broken (misstep, Force, Daze) that a blue player can afford to do that, unless those decks take to running disrupting shoal, Chalice of the Void, and Ancestral visions to try and freeroll our Living ends. We have answers to counter based decks (Choke and Boil are legal) so I am not worried about him.
Related to that, has anyone run choke in the board? I'm thinking against a blue opponent it is probably better than beast within number 4, especially if on turn one they play something off an island and I can run one out with an SSG while their mana is tapped, I just wonder how many blue decks really run that many island as opposed to fast lands or man lands. The other fear I have is how many of those decks are running spreading seas which would turn it around on me.
I'm less concerned with Jace as a card in itself being a problem for us and more with the overall effect that a reintroduction of Jace might have on the meta being negative for us. If creature based midrange value becomes a dramatically less viable strategy, that is bad for us.
That's a good point Wyvern. Interestingly, only one deck in the 2010 GP Oakland Top 8 (that's all I could find for info on the decks) ran Jace, and it wasn't even the thopter/depths deck. The field that Woo originally cut through was overwhelmingly dominated by Zoo and Bant--probably a big part of his actual success.
I'm less concerned with Jace as a card in itself being a problem for us and more with the overall effect that a reintroduction of Jace might have on the meta being negative for us. If creature based midrange value becomes a dramatically less viable strategy, that is bad for us.
That's a good point Wyvern. Interestingly, only one deck in the 2010 GP Oakland Top 8 (that's all I could find for info on the decks) ran Jace, and it wasn't even the thopter/depths deck. The field that Woo originally cut through was overwhelmingly dominated by Zoo and Bant--probably a big part of his actual success.
If the format becomes overwhelmingly blue based control decks, we have answers to that. I find that LE is surprisingly versatile with some tweaks. I would be more concerned if a shift to Jace suddenly caused burn decks to be better, because then the sideboard puzzle becomes problematic. Really what I think I fear most is a meta that sees decks with efficient game one grave-hate as part of its strategy, but outside of maybe dredge running leyline mainboard I am not sure what could bring that on.
Burn decks are already great, they’ve been putting up some very consistent results the last few weeks (including at the Pro Tour).
I wouldn’t be surprised to play against a couple Burn decks in any given tournament, Leyline White becomes an immensely valuable card again for us in that Case
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
@RoboMemer on Discord
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I would sooner play brindleboar and kitchen finks if that is the case. Having to draw a card in the opening hand is really counter to what the deck wants to do, which is keep any viable hand and draw into answers because of the number of cyclers. Leyline is much better against a deck that has a wincon that is both targeted and immune to lifegain, like some sort of infinite fireball list, but those are few and far between
I have won more games with LE because of my opponent having to aggressive mulligan into leyline of the void than I ever have lost because they got a turn 0 leyline.
Protoaddict, I agree that we have answers to control decks and ways to adapt, and I'm not about to drop this deck until they ban living end, honestly. But no one would suggest that a meta dominated by blue control decks and their counters is the ideal meta for a living end player. Honestly, the best prognosis for us here is that zoo and bogles dramatically increase in relevance and power.
Hello, I'm on a comeback tour of Magic and I'm trying out several decks. Today I tried a mostly stock version of Living End on MTGO (I had played it several years ago), and I got solidly trounced (0-5), so I'll gladly hear any advice.
I lost vs Abzan Eldritch Evolution, game 1 I misplayed, rushed a 1st Living End and wrongly played a 2nd Living End (forgot it would bring back his creatures) because he had outclassed mine with a Sigarda, Host of Herons and Siege Rhino. Game 2 I got mana-screwed, no amount of cycling got me past 1 mana.
Vs Monored Burn, I made a math error and was 1 point off lethal (should have cycled differently to make the Horror lethal). Won game 2 but lost game 3 to manaflood... I ended up chumpblocking with Simian Spirit Guides.
Vs UR Gifts Storm, I was hoping to kill his mana creatures (Baral and Electromancer) but he doesn't play any and goes off 1 turn before I can have lethal
Game 2 I draw all my Living Ends cycling !!!
Vs Lantern, he had double Ensnaring Bridge early both games - game 2 I killed one but he topdecked another.
Vs UR Pyromancer, he had countermagic for anything I tried to do. I won game 2 on a turn 2 Violent Outburst, but game 3 he had Relic of Progenitus and I didn't draw into an answer and died to Elemental tokens from Young Pyromancer.
I really disliked not having any interaction, and holding hands full of lands after cycling. I think I should have gone 2-3 if I played better, but some matchups felt unwinnable.
If JTMS does end up dominating and pushing the meta towards a heavy blue control style, it's definitely not ideal for us. Which is a shame because i'm close to Connecticut and there's a modern GP in two months. Just when I nailed down the perfect 75 pre unbanning too...
Might be time to reconsider the fourth SSG and Beast within.
Hello, I'm on a comeback tour of Magic and I'm trying out several decks. Today I tried a mostly stock version of Living End on MTGO (I had played it several years ago), and I got solidly trounced (0-5), so I'll gladly hear any advice.
I lost vs Abzan Eldritch Evolution, game 1 I misplayed, rushed a 1st Living End and wrongly played a 2nd Living End (forgot it would bring back his creatures) because he had outclassed mine with a Sigarda, Host of Herons and Siege Rhino. Game 2 I got mana-screwed, no amount of cycling got me past 1 mana.
Vs Monored Burn, I made a math error and was 1 point off lethal (should have cycled differently to make the Horror lethal). Won game 2 but lost game 3 to manaflood... I ended up chumpblocking with Simian Spirit Guides.
Vs UR Gifts Storm, I was hoping to kill his mana creatures (Baral and Electromancer) but he doesn't play any and goes off 1 turn before I can have lethal
Game 2 I draw all my Living Ends cycling !!!
Vs Lantern, he had double Ensnaring Bridge early both games - game 2 I killed one but he topdecked another.
Vs UR Pyromancer, he had countermagic for anything I tried to do. I won game 2 on a turn 2 Violent Outburst, but game 3 he had Relic of Progenitus and I didn't draw into an answer and died to Elemental tokens from Young Pyromancer.
I really disliked not having any interaction, and holding hands full of lands after cycling. I think I should have gone 2-3 if I played better, but some matchups felt unwinnable.
Also, has anyone tested Faith of the Devoted as a way to sidestep hate? I think it would have been good vs Lantern and maybe Burn.
Welcome to the deck. You really don't want to play those cards. They're just not good. If you want some more interaction, turn to Kolaghan's command (something I think almost all of us include in the deck), Beast Within, Shriekmaw, Faerie Macabre, and Fulminator mage in the main. You have lots of sideboard options as well, neatly detailed in the main primer post.
Thank you gruulsmash. I know they're not good, but, although I did read the front page primer, I don't know what those cards would have helped for.
I did have Beast Within main (3x), Shriekmaw (1 main), 2 Faerie Macabre main and 2 SB and 3 Fulminators, none of those cards seemed very useful in the Pyromancer matchup for example, and also not vs the UR storm (because he lucked out, otherwise Faerie should help) or Lantern.
The Blue decks in particular seem like an awful matchup, both Storm and Pyromancer had Remands, the 2 Ricochet Traps don't seem to cut it.
I only really like a playset of each if the meta is pushed to an extreme on the spectrum, like if the meta is filled with long grindy control decks and hyper aggro/combo with nothing in between.
Jeskai pre unbanning was a serious consideration but the metagame share wasn't oppressive and the rest of the tier 1/2 field was much more balanced that called for 3 beasts and SSG. And all things considered, i'm not even that scared of Jeskai as I was of just straight UW control.
Thank you gruulsmash. I know they're not good, but, although I did read the front page primer, I don't know what those cards would have helped for.
I did have Beast Within main (3x), Shriekmaw (1 main), 2 Faerie Macabre main and 2 SB and 3 Fulminators, none of those cards seemed very useful in the Pyromancer matchup for example, and also not vs the UR storm (because he lucked out, otherwise Faerie should help) or Lantern.
The Blue decks in particular seem like an awful matchup, both Storm and Pyromancer had Remands, the 2 Ricochet Traps don't seem to cut it.
Si tu problema son las counters probablemente esto te sirva Guttural Response
Now chances are we're not playing either of the two but it's worth considering the impact it has on our end from splash damage. From what I can see, it looks like the unbans will shift the format towards a more general midrange feel, something that is good on our end. But JTMS does boost blue control decks and that means more counterspells. I'm already sitting on 3 ricochet traps in the SB but perhaps choke or boil might be worth considering if it becomes too oppressive.
1 - No, you should not run BBE in your Living End deck. Move on. Yes I know it can hit a cascade into violent outburst into LE, giving you a board full of junk and a 3/2 haste. Most of the time it wont and most of the time its dead. Youll hit Simian Spirit guides and beast withins quite a lot. It is not the direction we need to go in.
2 - BBE is going to be in Gruul Beatdown lists and it will do really well there. I know people have mentioned Jund but I am far more worried to see a bunch of haste creatures early on followed by Bloodbraid into boggart-ram gang / Flame wake Phoenix / hells thunder / Lathnu Hellion / Scab clan Berzewrker / Flames of the blood hand than I am them hitting a dark confidant or a goyf. You should be wary of it because there will be a fair number of games where it's just a surprise 3-7 damage to the dome.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I showed up again just to reiterate this, but you beat me to it.
EDIT: I added some notes on BBE to the primer so hopefully we won't have to keep talking about it every six weeks.
Here is what my list currently looks like for GP Lyon. Remember, no new (un)banlist until Monday so it's not affected!
// 29 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Horror of the Broken Lands
4 Desert Cerodon
2 Archfiend of Ifnir
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Street Wraith
// 7 Instant
4 Violent Outburst
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Beast Within
// 18 Land
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
// 6 Creature
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Shriekmaw
// 6 Enchantment
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
// 3 Instant
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ricochet Trap
There are a few things that I'm not sure of yet:
Do not hesitate to share what you think of it and all that, that's my first very big Modern Tournament!
I think these will really restrict the diversity of midrange decks, even if they do make them more common (not something I'm entirely sure they will do so). It feels very hard to justify not playing blue or red in you black midrange strategy now--there's just immense power lost in each, so why would you ever go without both? Looking at Reid Duke's top 6 list as an example, it's hard to see how the deck can justify not playing Elf over Lingering Souls and Stony Silence.
This is probably good for us in some respects and bad in others. A reduction in abzan means less unconditional removal and certainly fewer or even no rest in peace. That's good, but the fact that Jund decks will have a little bit more to come back off a living end and generally pressure is not a great sign.
Zoo may also now have a competitive advantage with Humans in some metas and make a partial comeback. Good news.
I'm really confused by what to make of Jace entering the format. He's never been here before, so we have no data on what decks looked like with him. He probably, however, incentivizes more counterspells in control decks and ones with a slightly more top end focused approach. So we could be in for something like the old UWR days of yore when they could only kill you with Colonnade.
Jace, to be a threat in relevant turns for us, has to tap out on turn 4. This format simply does not have free counterspells like the formats where he was broken (misstep, Force, Daze) that a blue player can afford to do that, unless those decks take to running disrupting shoal, Chalice of the Void, and Ancestral visions to try and freeroll our Living ends. We have answers to counter based decks (Choke and Boil are legal) so I am not worried about him.
Related to that, has anyone run choke in the board? I'm thinking against a blue opponent it is probably better than beast within number 4, especially if on turn one they play something off an island and I can run one out with an SSG while their mana is tapped, I just wonder how many blue decks really run that many island as opposed to fast lands or man lands. The other fear I have is how many of those decks are running spreading seas which would turn it around on me.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
There were Jace decks in Extended when Living End first became a thing. Granted, a few of them are no longer decks (Dark Depths), but it's a place to start.
I'm less concerned with Jace as a card in itself being a problem for us and more with the overall effect that a reintroduction of Jace might have on the meta being negative for us. If creature based midrange value becomes a dramatically less viable strategy, that is bad for us.
That's a good point Wyvern. Interestingly, only one deck in the 2010 GP Oakland Top 8 (that's all I could find for info on the decks) ran Jace, and it wasn't even the thopter/depths deck. The field that Woo originally cut through was overwhelmingly dominated by Zoo and Bant--probably a big part of his actual success.
If the format becomes overwhelmingly blue based control decks, we have answers to that. I find that LE is surprisingly versatile with some tweaks. I would be more concerned if a shift to Jace suddenly caused burn decks to be better, because then the sideboard puzzle becomes problematic. Really what I think I fear most is a meta that sees decks with efficient game one grave-hate as part of its strategy, but outside of maybe dredge running leyline mainboard I am not sure what could bring that on.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I wouldn’t be surprised to play against a couple Burn decks in any given tournament, Leyline White becomes an immensely valuable card again for us in that Case
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I have won more games with LE because of my opponent having to aggressive mulligan into leyline of the void than I ever have lost because they got a turn 0 leyline.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
I lost vs Abzan Eldritch Evolution, game 1 I misplayed, rushed a 1st Living End and wrongly played a 2nd Living End (forgot it would bring back his creatures) because he had outclassed mine with a Sigarda, Host of Herons and Siege Rhino. Game 2 I got mana-screwed, no amount of cycling got me past 1 mana.
Vs Monored Burn, I made a math error and was 1 point off lethal (should have cycled differently to make the Horror lethal). Won game 2 but lost game 3 to manaflood... I ended up chumpblocking with Simian Spirit Guides.
Vs UR Gifts Storm, I was hoping to kill his mana creatures (Baral and Electromancer) but he doesn't play any and goes off 1 turn before I can have lethal
Game 2 I draw all my Living Ends cycling !!!
Vs Lantern, he had double Ensnaring Bridge early both games - game 2 I killed one but he topdecked another.
Vs UR Pyromancer, he had countermagic for anything I tried to do. I won game 2 on a turn 2 Violent Outburst, but game 3 he had Relic of Progenitus and I didn't draw into an answer and died to Elemental tokens from Young Pyromancer.
I really disliked not having any interaction, and holding hands full of lands after cycling. I think I should have gone 2-3 if I played better, but some matchups felt unwinnable.
I do think there are some slots for interaction, maybe some turn 2/3 discard? Coercion/Nightsnare/Pulse of the Dross? Rise // Fall? Brain Weevil? (nice synergy with Living End), Stupor?
Also, has anyone tested Faith of the Devoted as a way to sidestep hate? I think it would have been good vs Lantern and maybe Burn.
Might be time to reconsider the fourth SSG and Beast within.
@Robo_Memer on Twitter, Twitch, Reddit, and YouTube
Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
Welcome to the deck. You really don't want to play those cards. They're just not good. If you want some more interaction, turn to Kolaghan's command (something I think almost all of us include in the deck), Beast Within, Shriekmaw, Faerie Macabre, and Fulminator mage in the main. You have lots of sideboard options as well, neatly detailed in the main primer post.
I did have Beast Within main (3x), Shriekmaw (1 main), 2 Faerie Macabre main and 2 SB and 3 Fulminators, none of those cards seemed very useful in the Pyromancer matchup for example, and also not vs the UR storm (because he lucked out, otherwise Faerie should help) or Lantern.
The Blue decks in particular seem like an awful matchup, both Storm and Pyromancer had Remands, the 2 Ricochet Traps don't seem to cut it.
Jeskai pre unbanning was a serious consideration but the metagame share wasn't oppressive and the rest of the tier 1/2 field was much more balanced that called for 3 beasts and SSG. And all things considered, i'm not even that scared of Jeskai as I was of just straight UW control.
Si tu problema son las counters probablemente esto te sirva Guttural Response
CMC <= 3, es no bueno.