To add to what Pope has said, if you need a piece of grave hate in the side for heavy graveyard decks, I've had very good experiences with Jund Charm. All three modes can be very relevant: Exiles yards that are bigger/more dangerous than ours (vs Pod, Dredgevine, Storm), hits critters for 2 (Pod, creature-based RDW, tokens, smaller aggro decks), and makes one of our guys bigger in response to damage or -X/-X removal or for the last few points of damage. I highly recommend the Charm.
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Thanks so much for all the reccomendations guys. Really appreciate it!
In terms of gravehate, I think for now, I'll go with the Faerie. I have tried her and she's seemed okay, but I guess I just haven't experienced those kind of 'wow' moments with her that you have Pope. Then again, I haven't experienced really anything from Leyline of the Void, so I guess the Faerie's a step up. Jund Charm seems great too; but its mana intensiveness will probably mean I'll try it once I get some Verdant Catacombs (which I definitely will).
I've actually found Shriekmaw to be quite good against what I've played so far; especially when I have to start hardcasting, the Fear has actually been quite relevant. However, strangely, I haven't played any Affinity yet (I've been playing mainly on Cockatrice), but I have the Ingot Chewers in the board with the matchup in mind...but I guess they're a bit slow compared to how Affinity can just drop its hand.
One thing that irks me about Dismember, as much as I love the card, is the fact that I'll need Faeries to ensure that the creature doesn't come back, while Shriekmaw doesn't. Has this been problematic at all?
I'll admit - I am probably just being a bit fickle when it comes to the Ricochet Trap, but I guess the 'play around' approach to control is half the fun of the matchup, and Ricochet Trap feels like cheating. Nonetheless, I think you're right about my mindset, in that I should be open to trying it.
I've found Fulminator, or land destruction in general, to be integral to this approach; I typically board in the Avalanche Riders, and a T3 Fulminator then a T4 Riders can be pretty backbreaking for them and gives me lots of room to overload their mana and finally get in a Living End.
And the more we talk about Sin Collector, the more appealing it becomes...definitely another thing for me to consider post-Catacombs.
So, the changes I'd make to your deck look like this...
Mainboard:
-1 Demonic Dread
-1 Jungle Weaver
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (you should run one of these at most, at least until the M14 rules kick in. Even then, meh)
+3 Faerie Macabre
Sideboard:
-3 Leyline of the Void
-3 Shriekmaw
+3 Sin Collector/Ricochet Trap
+3 Dismember
If you don't like Dismember, another Gnaw to the Bone can't hurt. You have to get those life gain cards quick when it's possible you'll be getting killed at early as turns 3 and 4. Would still suggest 2 Dismember.
Seems pretty sound; only thing that I can query is the removal of one Demonic Dread. I've always loved having all 8 cascaders, and it's always come in handy to have multiples in hand, especially against the hand disruption of Jund as well as control. With 7 have you ever ended up a bit cascade light?
Once again, thanks so much for everything guys, really opens my eyes to how the deck operates and how my list can be improved.
I forgot to mention Jund Charm and I'm glad Das Nekros did. It's...well, it's everything. I've won the game solely on the basis of every single mode of that spell separately. It's hysterical when you get there with the 2 +1/+1 counters mode, 'cause it's just....just so awful. The Pyroclasm effect is sweet against affinity and the Grave hate mode is good against anything with creatures.
Hey, If Shriekmaw is working for you then by all means do it. Play him until you don't like him anymore, prove us all wrong! We're always glad to be proven wrong here.
Ingot Chewer is pretty nutty against Affinity. Considering how fast they win, it's actually pretty easy to slow them down by just Chewing up their Cranial Plating. Steel Overseer is another good target to slow them down. If you're getting ready to combo though, target number one is Ravager.
There's no doubt that crippling your opponents' lands with Fulminator and Beast Within wins games by itself, never mind the combo. But against control I've always just felt it's not working. As long as they can hold onto two lands they're fine, which isn't hard when you're not LDing until they have at least two. It's still important to LD them, but it's just less effective than most.
The 7 vs. 8 cascade spells is an old argument and ultimately it comes down to preference. However, I've always felt very comfortable with 7 and in situations where I can't for the life of me draw one, the statistics of the situation are so absurd that you really just have to accept that **** happens no matter how consistent your deck is. I believe most (again, memory could deceive) people have settled on 7.
Also, you may have noticed by telling you to drop an Urborg I was sending you down to 19 land. This is another choice where some people don't feel comfortable with so few, but I know myself and Wyvernslayer have had good experiences with it.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
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As long as I can guarantee the white mana, Sin Collector actually looks like a pretty good Ricochet Trap-Slaughter Games hybrid. Although it doesn't cream Scapeshift as much as SG does, at least it can disrupt them fairly well for a Ricochet Trap sub. It's a shame it can't disrupt Exarch Twin that well, but that's what Krosan Grip, Beast Within, and Violent Outburst + yard hate are for.
Also, you may have noticed by telling you to drop an Urborg I was sending you down to 19 land. This is another choice where some people don't feel comfortable with so few, but I know myself and Wyvernslayer have had good experiences with it.
I am also a fan of 19 land, mainly because we are fine with 1- or 2-land openers, which could cause other decks to drop it like it's hot. Because we draw so much off our cyclers, there's a pretty good chance we'll hit all the land we need.
Just watch out when playing against white though. I played against Selesnya beats at my GP and it was a heavy game because I was holding a 2-lander with Pale Recluse and Fulminator Mage, but my t2 fetch was Mindcensored and I was stuck. Still recovered though, but it was painful.
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I am also a fan of 19 land, mainly because we are fine with 1- or 2-land openers, which could cause other decks to drop it like it's hot. Because we draw so much off our cyclers, there's a pretty good chance we'll hit all the land we need.
Just watch out when playing against white though. I played against Selesnya beats at my GP and it was a heavy game because I was holding a 2-lander with Pale Recluse and Fulminator Mage, but my t2 fetch was Mindcensored and I was stuck. Still recovered though, but it was painful.
I just feel the need to point out that I got burned pretty hard by one-land keeps this past week at my LGS. I recall a particular game against a RG aggro deck (which, as you all know, is a laughably easy matchup) where my opening seven was this:
I will keep a hand like that 100% of the time. I never saw a second land and was dead in four turns.
And then in game 2 I drew all of my Living Ends.
Variance at its finest, but I wouldn't bump up my land count over it. The only consideration I'm making for my manabase is to cut Kessig Wolf Run (GASP!) for a second white source. I'm really intrigued by Sin Collector and want to try him out, but banking on Godless Shrine as the only means of hardcasting him is no bueno.
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I regret not playing Living End in KC this weekend. All the grave-hate that was going to be packed for Pod made me switch to Soul Sisters (my other deck of choice). I figured I had some rotten luck this PTQ season with it (you all can see those posts earlier in the thread/old thread). Plus, a lot of Tron players were showing up in force in KC... should of just said YOLO and maindecked 3 Avalanche Riders.
2 good showings in a small amount of time. It's funny how people are finally just realizing this is a REAL deck.
BTW my friend played Living End in KC. He was 6-2 and lost his win-and-in against Merfolk.
I didn't watch any of the games unfortunately (read the daily article from the mothership however). I really don't get the spike feeder bit, he states Brindle boar might be better (and more "traditional" I suppose).
Pressure... pushing down on me
Pressing down on you
No man ask for
It happens. It happened last night, and I nearly cried out at my monitor when he conceded, but what can I do? Congratulations to Joe, top 8'ng with our deck, and with the Guides in the deck, just like I used to run, I was glad to see them in the list.
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One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Apart from utility lands, I worry that your main and side have too many 1-ofs. Do you find you can consistently draw them when you do board them in? Beast Within (since you're already running 3 main) and Valley Rannet (since it's similar to other cards and not quite as "unique" as your others)excluded, but cards like Jund Charm, Ricochet Trap, and Dampening Matrix - they are answers to what the opponents are doing (particularly the latter two), and I feel siding in only 1 copy for a match will not allow you to see it consistently enough to adequately answer whatever you're siding it in for. I'd recommend making the side slightly less broad-spectrum, which would make the answers you DO side in much more likely to come up and be relevant.
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valley rannet is ok being only 1 in the main i think , its a hughe damage dealer but has small body so i don't want to run more since is just only a creature with big face, yeah , i could play another jungle weaver or any other cycler but meh it's not a big deal
the singleton jund charm is quite an ass saver against some aggro decks or GY users, and with the quantity of cyclers to draw card most of the games i end up with the charm in my hand which i can use in EOT to empty my opponent gy before using demonic dread, or to mess with gifts ungiven decks.
I do agree that my sideboard needs some rework , but yesterday worked fine, it was a top8 qualify for a cross-shop league, ended third so i had my place on the final.
the most cards i used from my sb were the 2 krosan grip and the 3 leylines
also used the dampen matrix ( got in starter hand against pod ) and ignot chewer
ricochet is there to fill the 15 card of the sb , not for any particular reason
Ricochet is a game winner against blue.
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valley rannet is ok being only 1 in the main i think , its a hughe damage dealer but has small body so i don't want to run more since is just only a creature with big face, yeah , i could play another jungle weaver or any other cycler but meh it's not a big deal
the singleton jund charm is quite an ass saver against some aggro decks or GY users, and with the quantity of cyclers to draw card most of the games i end up with the charm in my hand which i can use in EOT to empty my opponent gy before using demonic dread, or to mess with gifts ungiven decks.
I do agree that my sideboard needs some rework , but yesterday worked fine, it was a top8 qualify for a cross-shop league, ended third so i had my place on the final.
the most cards i used from my sb were the 2 krosan grip and the 3 leylines
also used the dampen matrix ( got in starter hand against pod ) and ignot chewer
ricochet is there to fill the 15 card of the sb , not for any particular reason
i forgot to say that living end is my pet deck, i don't use it really often , but i do when i go rogue
Valley Rannet and Jund Charm as singletons I can understand: Valley Rannet is just a slightly different variation on a multitude of cards already present, and Jund Charm is a useful tool yet not a card you necessarily rely on. It's really the singletons in the sideboard that make me worry.
Ingot Chewer, Leyline, and Krosan Grip are all solid cards, and you have multiples of each. But you say you also use Damping Matrix (which you were lucky enough to draw), and I'm not sure I'm a fan of having hate cards as 1-ofs.
I definitely agree, Ricochet Trap is definitely a surprise in most cases and can lead to ridiculous blowouts. But if you never side it in and actually use Damping Matrix, wouldn't it be better to replace a placeholder with a card you might actually use?
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the thing is that i do think ricochet trap is pretty good so maybe i'll take out dampen for another trap
shriekmaw is what i don't like very much in my side, any suggest to replace ?
The most direct replacement for it would be Dismember. Alternatively, if there is too much grave interactions/tokens in your meta, you could replace them with more copies of Jund Charm
3 copies makes me feel like it's a happy medium between 'not having enough of it' and 'pulling out too much out of the deck for it'.
As for roles:
-Ricochet Trap if I see blue and counters
-Dismember for any sort of fast/"Voltron"y aggro, such as Infect or Ravager
-Brindle Boar for Burn/Scapeshift/GrapeStorm
-Jund Charm for small creatures/other graveyard decks
-Ingot Chewer against Affinity and Pod or if I suspect Relic of Progenitus.
Unless the matchup demands it, I also generally end up boarding my 2 Avalanche Riders out for 2 of any particular hate card I feel can help.
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I think that side definitely looks more solid and consistent. Everything's at a 2-of, and the "singleton" charm adds to one already in the main. With the addition of the Faerie, however, you end up with 2 + 2 + 3 = 7 pieces of grave hate. Just something to keep in mind, as I am not as familiar with your meta of course.
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After the GP KS t8, what would it take to get this archetype bumped into the "proven" section? Would folks here even want that (too much attention)?
I think Living End is unlikely to hit "Proven" status just yet. It would need several consistent finishes (probably at least T16/T8) to go up there.
But you are right. Part of what it has going for it is the surprise and "Oh **** what do I do?" response
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Can someone Explain to me why Joe Hemmann used Spike Feeder?
My guess is that it's capable of binning itself for value -> living end -> repeat. It doesn't get caught by cascade and can serve as a blocker too, I guess.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
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In terms of gravehate, I think for now, I'll go with the Faerie. I have tried her and she's seemed okay, but I guess I just haven't experienced those kind of 'wow' moments with her that you have Pope. Then again, I haven't experienced really anything from Leyline of the Void, so I guess the Faerie's a step up. Jund Charm seems great too; but its mana intensiveness will probably mean I'll try it once I get some Verdant Catacombs (which I definitely will).
I've actually found Shriekmaw to be quite good against what I've played so far; especially when I have to start hardcasting, the Fear has actually been quite relevant. However, strangely, I haven't played any Affinity yet (I've been playing mainly on Cockatrice), but I have the Ingot Chewers in the board with the matchup in mind...but I guess they're a bit slow compared to how Affinity can just drop its hand.
One thing that irks me about Dismember, as much as I love the card, is the fact that I'll need Faeries to ensure that the creature doesn't come back, while Shriekmaw doesn't. Has this been problematic at all?
I'll admit - I am probably just being a bit fickle when it comes to the Ricochet Trap, but I guess the 'play around' approach to control is half the fun of the matchup, and Ricochet Trap feels like cheating. Nonetheless, I think you're right about my mindset, in that I should be open to trying it.
I've found Fulminator, or land destruction in general, to be integral to this approach; I typically board in the Avalanche Riders, and a T3 Fulminator then a T4 Riders can be pretty backbreaking for them and gives me lots of room to overload their mana and finally get in a Living End.
And the more we talk about Sin Collector, the more appealing it becomes...definitely another thing for me to consider post-Catacombs.
Seems pretty sound; only thing that I can query is the removal of one Demonic Dread. I've always loved having all 8 cascaders, and it's always come in handy to have multiples in hand, especially against the hand disruption of Jund as well as control. With 7 have you ever ended up a bit cascade light?
Once again, thanks so much for everything guys, really opens my eyes to how the deck operates and how my list can be improved.
Hey, If Shriekmaw is working for you then by all means do it. Play him until you don't like him anymore, prove us all wrong! We're always glad to be proven wrong here.
Ingot Chewer is pretty nutty against Affinity. Considering how fast they win, it's actually pretty easy to slow them down by just Chewing up their Cranial Plating. Steel Overseer is another good target to slow them down. If you're getting ready to combo though, target number one is Ravager.
There's no doubt that crippling your opponents' lands with Fulminator and Beast Within wins games by itself, never mind the combo. But against control I've always just felt it's not working. As long as they can hold onto two lands they're fine, which isn't hard when you're not LDing until they have at least two. It's still important to LD them, but it's just less effective than most.
The 7 vs. 8 cascade spells is an old argument and ultimately it comes down to preference. However, I've always felt very comfortable with 7 and in situations where I can't for the life of me draw one, the statistics of the situation are so absurd that you really just have to accept that **** happens no matter how consistent your deck is. I believe most (again, memory could deceive) people have settled on 7.
Also, you may have noticed by telling you to drop an Urborg I was sending you down to 19 land. This is another choice where some people don't feel comfortable with so few, but I know myself and Wyvernslayer have had good experiences with it.
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UBlue BraidsU
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And unlike SG, it beats against UWR Control.
I am also a fan of 19 land, mainly because we are fine with 1- or 2-land openers, which could cause other decks to drop it like it's hot. Because we draw so much off our cyclers, there's a pretty good chance we'll hit all the land we need.
Just watch out when playing against white though. I played against Selesnya beats at my GP and it was a heavy game because I was holding a 2-lander with Pale Recluse and Fulminator Mage, but my t2 fetch was Mindcensored and I was stuck. Still recovered though, but it was painful.
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I just feel the need to point out that I got burned pretty hard by one-land keeps this past week at my LGS. I recall a particular game against a RG aggro deck (which, as you all know, is a laughably easy matchup) where my opening seven was this:
I will keep a hand like that 100% of the time. I never saw a second land and was dead in four turns.
And then in game 2 I drew all of my Living Ends.
Variance at its finest, but I wouldn't bump up my land count over it. The only consideration I'm making for my manabase is to cut Kessig Wolf Run (GASP!) for a second white source. I'm really intrigued by Sin Collector and want to try him out, but banking on Godless Shrine as the only means of hardcasting him is no bueno.
Now the question is, was Joe one of us?
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2 good showings in a small amount of time. It's funny how people are finally just realizing this is a REAL deck.
BTW my friend played Living End in KC. He was 6-2 and lost his win-and-in against Merfolk.
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Legacy love.
My first reaction to seeing his deck however was this:
" Spike feeder...... SPIKE feeder?!? why the, who the...... "brain explosion" "
I didn't watch any of the games unfortunately (read the daily article from the mothership however). I really don't get the spike feeder bit, he states Brindle boar might be better (and more "traditional" I suppose).
mothership article:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpkc13/welcome
The Deck
2 Blood Crypt
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
18 lands
3 Avalanche Riders
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Jungle Weaver
4 Monstrous Carabid
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Spike Feeder
4 Street Wraith
2 Twisted Abomination
30 creatures
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
4 Violent Outburst
12 other spells
2 Dismember
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Ricochet Trap
15 sideboard cards
Pressing down on you
No man ask for
It happens. It happened last night, and I nearly cried out at my monitor when he conceded, but what can I do? Congratulations to Joe, top 8'ng with our deck, and with the Guides in the deck, just like I used to run, I was glad to see them in the list.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Apart from utility lands, I worry that your main and side have too many 1-ofs. Do you find you can consistently draw them when you do board them in? Beast Within (since you're already running 3 main) and Valley Rannet (since it's similar to other cards and not quite as "unique" as your others)excluded, but cards like Jund Charm, Ricochet Trap, and Dampening Matrix - they are answers to what the opponents are doing (particularly the latter two), and I feel siding in only 1 copy for a match will not allow you to see it consistently enough to adequately answer whatever you're siding it in for. I'd recommend making the side slightly less broad-spectrum, which would make the answers you DO side in much more likely to come up and be relevant.
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Ricochet is a game winner against blue.
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Valley Rannet and Jund Charm as singletons I can understand: Valley Rannet is just a slightly different variation on a multitude of cards already present, and Jund Charm is a useful tool yet not a card you necessarily rely on. It's really the singletons in the sideboard that make me worry.
Ingot Chewer, Leyline, and Krosan Grip are all solid cards, and you have multiples of each. But you say you also use Damping Matrix (which you were lucky enough to draw), and I'm not sure I'm a fan of having hate cards as 1-ofs.
I definitely agree, Ricochet Trap is definitely a surprise in most cases and can lead to ridiculous blowouts. But if you never side it in and actually use Damping Matrix, wouldn't it be better to replace a placeholder with a card you might actually use?
xMage: Jankmaster
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The most direct replacement for it would be Dismember. Alternatively, if there is too much grave interactions/tokens in your meta, you could replace them with more copies of Jund Charm
Also, for reference, here is my own sideboard:
3 Ricochet Trap
3 Dismember
3 Jund Charm
3 Ingot Chewer
3 copies makes me feel like it's a happy medium between 'not having enough of it' and 'pulling out too much out of the deck for it'.
As for roles:
-Ricochet Trap if I see blue and counters
-Dismember for any sort of fast/"Voltron"y aggro, such as Infect or Ravager
-Brindle Boar for Burn/Scapeshift/GrapeStorm
-Jund Charm for small creatures/other graveyard decks
-Ingot Chewer against Affinity and Pod or if I suspect Relic of Progenitus.
Unless the matchup demands it, I also generally end up boarding my 2 Avalanche Riders out for 2 of any particular hate card I feel can help.
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
These changes would put you at
4 verdant catacomb
2 stomping ground
3 copperline gorge
3 blackcleave cliffs
1 blood crypt
1 godless shrine
1 kessig wolf run
1 overgrown tomb
1 dryad arbor
2 swamp
1 forest
1 mountain
4 violent outburst
3 beast within
1 jund charm
Sorcery
4 demonic dread
3 living end
Creatures
4 deadshot minotaur
4 monstrous carabid
3 jungle weaver
4 fulminator mage
4 street wraith
2 avalanche riders
1 valley rannet
2 pale recluse
2 ricochet trap
3 ingot chewer
1 jund charm
2 krosan grip
2 gnaw to the bone
3 leyline of the void
2 faerie macabre
I think that side definitely looks more solid and consistent. Everything's at a 2-of, and the "singleton" charm adds to one already in the main. With the addition of the Faerie, however, you end up with 2 + 2 + 3 = 7 pieces of grave hate. Just something to keep in mind, as I am not as familiar with your meta of course.
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I think Living End is unlikely to hit "Proven" status just yet. It would need several consistent finishes (probably at least T16/T8) to go up there.
But you are right. Part of what it has going for it is the surprise and "Oh **** what do I do?" response
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
My guess is that it's capable of binning itself for value -> living end -> repeat. It doesn't get caught by cascade and can serve as a blocker too, I guess.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
My guess is because the meta had a lot of Scapeshift in it. If the LD plan doesn't come out fast enough, every bit of life helps against them.