After not playing for a while and seeing Modern as a new format, i figured i'd remake one of my favorite decks- Sligh. And, like some others said before me, i think it is by far the best way to go with red. I used to play Sligh in extended when Tangle Wire and Rishadan Port were legal and you could lock down your opponent and out tempo them. And though we don't have the utility cards like that now, our creature and burn pool are amazing. I've narrowed it down to the best ones (imo) and i tried to follow a traditional 20/20/20 Sligh build as follows:
Creatures
Most of the creature choices are obvious. I wanted cheap creatures that would stick on the board, or guarantee damage (Keldon Marauders.)
No one seems to be mentioning Slith Firewalker, but i remember playing with this card and it was amazing. He becomes very dangerous if not answered and he is usually overlooked. He is the best replacement for Hellspark Elemental whom i would have used, but obviously he doesn't flow well with Grim Lavamancer. Spells
The burn i chose was based off of the Legacy Burn lists. Magma Jet is amazing and should be auto include. I love playing around people's counters with Rift Bolt. Searing Blaze i feel is an auto include too, it does exactly what Sligh is meant to do, burn the opponents creature so my creatures can get through, and it does dmg to the opponent. My hardest decision was Lava Spike or Incinerate. Yes as i said before you want to kill their creatures so yours can get through, but i felt that incinerate was too costly sometimes to do what i wanted it to. Lava Spike adds that last little push most of the time, when im low on land especially. Land
Yes, I run 20 lands and 4 of them come into play tapped. but the curve of the deck is extremely low. You absolutely need the sac lands for Grim Lavamancer and for deck thinning. Teetering Peaks usually helps more often then hurts too.
Sideboard
Was a little iffy but i think i have it down. Just like the good ol' days, Ensnaring Bridge stops some decks right in their tracks - and with the low curve we should have little to no cards by 3rd/4th turn. Leyline of Punishment is for obvious reasons, Smash to Smithereens is to ensure we win that Affinity match up. Had a difficult time on deciding on Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon - figured enchantments would stick longer.
After testing online, the only decks that i have lost to are Soul Sisters, and damn Blazing Infect Shoal bull****. Shouldn't have lost to that though. Everything else i usually out tempo. Affinity can be a problem if i don't burn the right creatures or go first. White is definitly the hardest matchup though. Everytime i've played 12-post they never get going in time and its been a piece of cake - maybe i've been lucky...
Hope this helps a little in making this a top tier deck again.
PS- Someone make a Primer for Sligh (not RDW) now =P Im too lazy to make one/ keep up with it.
I really dislike Leyline of Punishment. It's a card that is just plain bad in multiples, and really only useful if it's in your opening hand. Even if you luck-sack and get one in your opening hand and never draw another, that doesn't give you an answer to Leyline of Sanctity turn 0 either. I'd much rather take the chance on Stigma Lasher. If I can connect, problem solved. Even if I top-deck him later in the game, he's at the least a 2/2 with wither for RR (something I'd much rather see than a Leyline).
I've had some success with Shrine of Burning Rage and Ghostfire against Kor Firewalker, but 3 mana for a bolt is a lot when you're running bolt for 1 mana, and bolt for 2 mana.
To fight Leyline, somebody casually mentioned to me the idea of using Stuffy Doll. At first I thought this was a silly idea, but let's examine this seriously. Can this actually work? Any sort of input is well appreciated.
Leyline of Sanctity is a tough one, but you have to adjust your playstyle to attacking with creatures and use your burn on anything that gets in the way. It's a bad card to come up against, but it can be done. Circle of Protection is also rough, but that can be handled with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker. There are more answers to Kor Firewalker, as you mentioned, but I'm less afraid of Firewalker and Forgetender than I am of Leyline and Circle of Protection. Ghostfire (which I completely forgot about) also works well against COP: Red in addition to Firewalker. But we can only put so many things in our sideboard, so it depends on how heavily people are sideboarding against RDW. Ghostfire is not worthy of the maindeck unless almost your entire meta is white decks.
I see your point on Leyline of Punishment, but one of the other reasons I like it is that it shuts down the Punishing Fires combo, whereas Lasher does not since it doesn't prevent you from gaining life. Everlasting Torment could also be useful as a 3-of.
Stuffy Doll seems a little too slow, honestly. I suppose it's worth testing but a card that comes online turn 5 has some serious issues for this deck. Leyline of Sanctity can be played around, it isn't necessarily an auto-scoop. It's one of those matches were the creature-heavier builds do better. I'm starting to like Stigma Lasher more and more, since being a creature it helps against Leyline as well.
How can you dislike Leyline of Punishment? It does EVERYTHING we want it to do! Except actually kill the opponent, but it certainly does help us do that. Not that i think any of you can't read but lets break down what it does and compare it to other choices:
1. It Stops life gain.
2. It stops prevention - which is Circle of Protection: Red, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Kor Firewalker, etc.
3. It comes down for FREE. Yes you have to have it in your hand but i would certainly mulligan at least once to try and get one. Especially in a Sligh build where your curve is so low that you can afford to mulligan.
Drawbacks: If you draw multiples. Now i see this being equivalent to the "this creature isn't good because it dies to removal" argument. There have been plenty of decks over the history of magic that run enchantments or artifacts where you don't need more than one of them. You just have to deal with it.
Other choices: Stigma Lasher just doesnt cut it. The earliest he can hit is turn 3. And he's nowhere near as good as our other creatures (or burn) - so getting him late game wouldnt be that impressive. He also doesnt beat cop:red, forge tender, or firewalker. He just beats life gain in general - IF he gets through. Chugalug even said it himself "If I can connect, problem solved"
Notice neither of them stop Leyline of Sanctity which is our biggest threat. This is why we need to run more creatures and preferably burn that hits both players and creatures so we can pave the way for our creatures. I feel like the Sligh build a posted can play around Leyline of Sanctity more efficiently than a RDW or obviously a Burn deck could. It's not easy, but it can be done.
The bottom line is that we should much rather have a definite answer before the game starts, instead of trying to risk maybe getting a half answer on t3. We won't really know which of those 4 cards i previously mentioned they will be playing (when playing against white). But we have to assume the worst, and stigma lasher doesn't completely answer any of those. Everlasting Torment is the next best card to use because it has the same effects as leyline but it just cant come down for free. Wasting turn 3(or turn 2 for stigma lasher) can be a huge setback to our gameplan. Turn 3 is when we put start putting them on the ropes. Ghostfire, Shrine of Burning Rage = horrible and too slow Stuffy Doll = garbage. literally, this card should be in your trash if you have it.
Gah, completely missed the "damage can't be prevented" line on Leyline of Punishment :sweat:. That makes a huge difference, the only thing it doesn't beat is Leyline of Sanctity, which can be played around anyway. You're right, GTOsheex, Leyline of Punishment is definitely a better option than Stigma Lasher. I agree on Shrine of Burning Rage and Stuffy Doll, but Ghostfire I think may still be worthy of consideration against pro-red stuff, maybe as a 2-of in the sideboard. I'm not saying it's great, but I do think it might be worth considering if you have room in your sideboard, and see a lot of pro-red stuff around.
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I agree that Leyline of Punishment is definitely better then Stigma Lasher especially after some testing. I'm just very curious as to why no one runs Flames of the Blood Hands though? I personally have been running a split between the two and really love Flames and really only want the Leyline to stop Punishing Fires. I've fought through many matches where my opponent gains 3-4 life in a turn or 2 and still be fine. As long as you hold back Flames for lethal or to prevent major life gain it is great. I really love this card in the deck.
I do like Flames of the Blood Hand. It's definitly a good card and was highly played when Burn was a top deck a few years ago in extended. and i see it highly playable in Burn now. but that is the most vulnerable of the red decks (out of burn, rdw, and sligh) i could see it in rdw, but i might play Flame Javelin over it, mainly because of leyline of sanctity. And it definitely doesn't fit in sligh.
In general our pool of burn gives us so many 1cc 3 dmg spells that 3cc for 4 just isnt worth it.
How can you dislike Leyline of Punishment? It does EVERYTHING we want it to do! Except actually kill the opponent, but it certainly does help us do that. Not that i think any of you can't read but lets break down what it does and compare it to other choices:
1. It Stops life gain.
2. It stops prevention - which is Circle of Protection: Red, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Kor Firewalker, etc.
3. It comes down for FREE. Yes you have to have it in your hand but i would certainly mulligan at least once to try and get one. Especially in a Sligh build where your curve is so low that you can afford to mulligan.
Drawbacks: If you draw multiples. Now i see this being equivalent to the "this creature isn't good because it dies to removal" argument. There have been plenty of decks over the history of magic that run enchantments or artifacts where you don't need more than one of them. You just have to deal with it.
Other choices: Stigma Lasher just doesnt cut it. The earliest he can hit is turn 3. And he's nowhere near as good as our other creatures (or burn) - so getting him late game wouldnt be that impressive. He also doesnt beat cop:red, forge tender, or firewalker. He just beats life gain in general - IF he gets through. Chugalug even said it himself "If I can connect, problem solved"
Notice neither of them stop Leyline of Sanctity which is our biggest threat. This is why we need to run more creatures and preferably burn that hits both players and creatures so we can pave the way for our creatures. I feel like the Sligh build a posted can play around Leyline of Sanctity more efficiently than a RDW or obviously a Burn deck could. It's not easy, but it can be done.
The bottom line is that we should much rather have a definite answer before the game starts, instead of trying to risk maybe getting a half answer on t3. We won't really know which of those 4 cards i previously mentioned they will be playing (when playing against white). But we have to assume the worst, and stigma lasher doesn't completely answer any of those. Everlasting Torment is the next best card to use because it has the same effects as leyline but it just cant come down for free. Wasting turn 3(or turn 2 for stigma lasher) can be a huge setback to our gameplan. Turn 3 is when we put start putting them on the ropes. Ghostfire, Shrine of Burning Rage = horrible and too slow Stuffy Doll = garbage. literally, this card should be in your trash if you have it.
Those are all very good points, and I'll consider Leyline in the sideboard. My main concern with it is drawing into multiples when I've already got one out. In my opinion it can really be a horrible top deck and in most (if not all) cases, I'd rather draw a mountain than a second Leyline.
Lightning Axe, for your consideration. Damage to Card ratio is meh, but damage to mana ratio is amazing. Turn a land into 5 damage? Yes please!
except it's creatures only.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
lol. that would be too good lol. I guess you have shrapnel blast except artifact lands are banned.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
The deck runs fetches anyways for Searing Blaze and Grim Lavamancer, and our own life total is rarely an issue, so why not go for 4 Sacred Foundry in the main and 4 Demystify in the side? If you like, you could even run Revoke Existence instead so that you can hit a few important artifacts. Paying 1 mana and 1 card to kill Leyline of Sanctity and give Grim Lavamancer food doesn't seem too bad, honestly. Note that I'm not saying that the list should necessarily be boros instead, the core would still be something like 8-12 Mountains, 0-4 Teetering Peaks, 6 cards that are a combination of Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa, and 4 Sacred Foundry, so all your lands still produce red and don't slow you down.
The deck runs fetches anyways for Searing Blaze and Grim Lavamancer, and our own life total is rarely an issue, so why not go for 4 Sacred Foundry in the main and 4 Demystify in the side? If you like, you could even run Revoke Existence instead so that you can hit a few important artifacts. Paying 1 mana and 1 card to kill Leyline of Sanctity and give Grim Lavamancer food doesn't seem too bad, honestly. Note that I'm not saying that the list should necessarily be boros instead, the core would still be something like 8-12 Mountains, 0-4 Teetering Peaks, 6 cards that are a combination of Scalding Tarn and Arid Mesa, and 4 Sacred Foundry, so all your lands still produce red and don't slow you down.
Because you would be better splashing green which would eventually lead you to running zoo.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
How is green in any way a better splash? the deck I'm proposing is not RDW with serra avenger and path to exile and a bunch of other white cards, it's RDW that can cast demystify. The manabase I'm proposing doesn't need to be able to support more than the demystifies, and for that green has nothing on white. Green has Nature's Claim, which is a bad card for us, and Naturalize, which is a worse Revoke Existence. Your claim is entirely baseless. Back to Nature actually hurts us if we want red leyline or Everlasting Torment
RDW doesn't want to cast to demystify. Is it good against Leyline? yes. Is Leyline actually being played? No. I'd much rather just be cold to a white leyline than waste sb slots trying to fight it.
Every once ina while your opponent will side into leyline of sanctity and some of those times they will have it in their opnening hand. You will probably lose those games. But in the 99% of other matchups, wouldn't you just rather have SB cards that actually did stuff? Like Blood Moon or Dismember or Smash to Smithereens?
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Although always playing a deck I think is fun, I'm also always trying to win the tournament.
Currently playing: M13 Draft GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD) GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
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Mubutu is right. You can't get 'the fear' and start changing your deck to beat white Leyline. If for some reason the format were to become saturated with white Leylines, it'd probably be a better idea to just play a different deck.
If you add a few Ghost Quarters You have an nice mana denial package going on then. You have also then greatly increased you chances of winning your games against the post decks.
what about Chandra's Phoenix ? Its one of the best creature cards RDW can abuse. thanks to RDWs massive removal spells it hits every turn for 2 damage.
Chandra's Phoenix is too slow for Modern. There a lot of better options, such as Hell's Thunder or Boggart Ram-Gang if you want three drops. There's probably some I'm missing, but you get the idea. Phoenix is fine in Standard, but not that great in Modern.
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4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Slith Firewalker
Spells
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Arid Mesa
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Teetering Peaks
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Smash to Smithereens
Most of the creature choices are obvious. I wanted cheap creatures that would stick on the board, or guarantee damage (Keldon Marauders.)
No one seems to be mentioning Slith Firewalker, but i remember playing with this card and it was amazing. He becomes very dangerous if not answered and he is usually overlooked. He is the best replacement for Hellspark Elemental whom i would have used, but obviously he doesn't flow well with Grim Lavamancer.
Spells
The burn i chose was based off of the Legacy Burn lists. Magma Jet is amazing and should be auto include. I love playing around people's counters with Rift Bolt. Searing Blaze i feel is an auto include too, it does exactly what Sligh is meant to do, burn the opponents creature so my creatures can get through, and it does dmg to the opponent. My hardest decision was Lava Spike or Incinerate. Yes as i said before you want to kill their creatures so yours can get through, but i felt that incinerate was too costly sometimes to do what i wanted it to. Lava Spike adds that last little push most of the time, when im low on land especially.
Land
Yes, I run 20 lands and 4 of them come into play tapped. but the curve of the deck is extremely low. You absolutely need the sac lands for Grim Lavamancer and for deck thinning. Teetering Peaks usually helps more often then hurts too.
Sideboard
Was a little iffy but i think i have it down. Just like the good ol' days, Ensnaring Bridge stops some decks right in their tracks - and with the low curve we should have little to no cards by 3rd/4th turn. Leyline of Punishment is for obvious reasons, Smash to Smithereens is to ensure we win that Affinity match up. Had a difficult time on deciding on Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon - figured enchantments would stick longer.
After testing online, the only decks that i have lost to are Soul Sisters, and damn Blazing Infect Shoal bull****. Shouldn't have lost to that though. Everything else i usually out tempo. Affinity can be a problem if i don't burn the right creatures or go first. White is definitly the hardest matchup though. Everytime i've played 12-post they never get going in time and its been a piece of cake - maybe i've been lucky...
Hope this helps a little in making this a top tier deck again.
PS- Someone make a Primer for Sligh (not RDW) now =P Im too lazy to make one/ keep up with it.
I really dislike Leyline of Punishment. It's a card that is just plain bad in multiples, and really only useful if it's in your opening hand. Even if you luck-sack and get one in your opening hand and never draw another, that doesn't give you an answer to Leyline of Sanctity turn 0 either. I'd much rather take the chance on Stigma Lasher. If I can connect, problem solved. Even if I top-deck him later in the game, he's at the least a 2/2 with wither for RR (something I'd much rather see than a Leyline).
I've had some success with Shrine of Burning Rage and Ghostfire against Kor Firewalker, but 3 mana for a bolt is a lot when you're running bolt for 1 mana, and bolt for 2 mana.
To fight Leyline, somebody casually mentioned to me the idea of using Stuffy Doll. At first I thought this was a silly idea, but let's examine this seriously. Can this actually work? Any sort of input is well appreciated.
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I see your point on Leyline of Punishment, but one of the other reasons I like it is that it shuts down the Punishing Fires combo, whereas Lasher does not since it doesn't prevent you from gaining life. Everlasting Torment could also be useful as a 3-of.
Stuffy Doll seems a little too slow, honestly. I suppose it's worth testing but a card that comes online turn 5 has some serious issues for this deck. Leyline of Sanctity can be played around, it isn't necessarily an auto-scoop. It's one of those matches were the creature-heavier builds do better. I'm starting to like Stigma Lasher more and more, since being a creature it helps against Leyline as well.
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1. It Stops life gain.
2. It stops prevention - which is Circle of Protection: Red, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Kor Firewalker, etc.
3. It comes down for FREE. Yes you have to have it in your hand but i would certainly mulligan at least once to try and get one. Especially in a Sligh build where your curve is so low that you can afford to mulligan.
Drawbacks: If you draw multiples. Now i see this being equivalent to the "this creature isn't good because it dies to removal" argument. There have been plenty of decks over the history of magic that run enchantments or artifacts where you don't need more than one of them. You just have to deal with it.
Other choices:
Stigma Lasher just doesnt cut it. The earliest he can hit is turn 3. And he's nowhere near as good as our other creatures (or burn) - so getting him late game wouldnt be that impressive. He also doesnt beat cop:red, forge tender, or firewalker. He just beats life gain in general - IF he gets through. Chugalug even said it himself "If I can connect, problem solved"
Notice neither of them stop Leyline of Sanctity which is our biggest threat. This is why we need to run more creatures and preferably burn that hits both players and creatures so we can pave the way for our creatures. I feel like the Sligh build a posted can play around Leyline of Sanctity more efficiently than a RDW or obviously a Burn deck could. It's not easy, but it can be done.
The bottom line is that we should much rather have a definite answer before the game starts, instead of trying to risk maybe getting a half answer on t3. We won't really know which of those 4 cards i previously mentioned they will be playing (when playing against white). But we have to assume the worst, and stigma lasher doesn't completely answer any of those.
Everlasting Torment is the next best card to use because it has the same effects as leyline but it just cant come down for free. Wasting turn 3(or turn 2 for stigma lasher) can be a huge setback to our gameplan. Turn 3 is when we put start putting them on the ropes.
Ghostfire, Shrine of Burning Rage = horrible and too slow
Stuffy Doll = garbage. literally, this card should be in your trash if you have it.
In Modern:
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In general our pool of burn gives us so many 1cc 3 dmg spells that 3cc for 4 just isnt worth it.
Those are all very good points, and I'll consider Leyline in the sideboard. My main concern with it is drawing into multiples when I've already got one out. In my opinion it can really be a horrible top deck and in most (if not all) cases, I'd rather draw a mountain than a second Leyline.
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lol something I've wanted to try for a while... I doubt it's gonna be competitive but I bet it's fun to pull off
RR(P/U)Big Red(P/U)RR 24-8-2 (un-retired)
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except it's creatures only.
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Derp.
I don't know if this is a mea culpa or what, but please provide more content in your posts. t_c
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lol. that would be too good lol. I guess you have shrapnel blast except artifact lands are banned.
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Because you would be better splashing green which would eventually lead you to running zoo.
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Thomas Jefferson
Every once ina while your opponent will side into leyline of sanctity and some of those times they will have it in their opnening hand. You will probably lose those games. But in the 99% of other matchups, wouldn't you just rather have SB cards that actually did stuff? Like Blood Moon or Dismember or Smash to Smithereens?
Currently playing:
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GWGWG Maverick..................(LEGACY)
Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
Molten Rain Is another card worth considering
If you add a few Ghost Quarters You have an nice mana denial package going on then. You have also then greatly increased you chances of winning your games against the post decks.
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Chandra's Phoenix is too slow for Modern. There a lot of better options, such as Hell's Thunder or Boggart Ram-Gang if you want three drops. There's probably some I'm missing, but you get the idea. Phoenix is fine in Standard, but not that great in Modern.
In Modern:
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