MTG Salvation

i was wondering when this was going to show up.
i havnt tryed this out yet but it seems like it would work on paper.



i dont know if this was already adressed but the synergy with gifts and past in flames seems amazing,the same goes with gifts and pyro.
then again this is kind of a rough draft,and untested,and just an idea.

Gifts ungiven seems cool in theory but there's two problems I have with it:
1) Extirpate/Surgical Extraction on the cards you don't get, or
2) Gifts is too slow, I'd rather win sooner without it.

Quote from Jtk

So far i'm testing this list to a moderate 17-4 in MWS:

Aior's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Steam Vents 4 Sulfur Falls 4 Scalding Tarn 2 Island 2 Mountain	4 Seething Song 4 Serum Visions 4 Peer Through Depths 4 Remand 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Desperate Ritual 1 Empty the Warrens 4 Pyretic Ritual 4 Ideas Unbound 4 Manamorphose 4 Grapeshot 3 Past in Flames

So i decided to start this archetype by using your deck list as it seems you have decent result (not sure what it mean on MWS...but well we have to start somewhere). here is the outcome of my testing.

Ideas Unbound: I have now removed that card and replaced it by sleight of hand. the reason is that UU is too mana intensive, it's not a good card to cast on turn 2 on the contrary of sleight of hand which is ok. also when you combo of you can do serum vision + sleight of hand for the "same results"

Mana base: after some game it has been clear that the mana base must be changed. I have change it to 4 scaling tarn, 4 sulfur falls, ONE steam vents, 7 island. later one i have removed 3 island for 3 simian spirit guide. the reason i have removed "all" steam vents is that is does a lot of damage and can affect the number of time you can cast gitaxian probe. the reason to add simian spirit guide is that when you combo off and you draw card you usually draw land that you cannot play where here they can be useful. so far not regretting it.

remand: is usually good. it helps to buy you one turn to combo of, however some time when you combo of it's a "dead" card in your graveyard. i mean it happens that you remand a grapeshot and cast it again but most of the time it does nothing.

Someone mention pentad prism, it seems very interesting. it can transform UR in UU. if cast on turn 2 it will be an incredible acceleration for the next turn.

noxious reveval also look interesting, to be considered

Serum vision: yep, that card is bad, it's a decent turn 1, maybe turn 2, but when you combo off you hope you don't draw it

Does anyone have a list with pyromancer swath or pyromancer ascension

I realized that most of the time you HAVE to try to combo off out of nowhere since you will be anyway dead next turn (particularly true against zoo). i would like to have a more control version where you can go off when you want. i was wondering if a list with pyromancer (ascension or swath) would be better.

Results so far (with no side):
Zoo (domain version): 40% win
burn: 45%
mid range: 80%
control: not tested enough but i guess quite bad

why are we not playing lotus petal in this build?

I 90% agree with the removal of ideas unbound. I have never been able to cast it the turn I go off, never had UU to flashback with PIF, and too little it does to help me the turns before I go off.

I'm thinking of trying see beyond or Vision Skeins" target="blank">Vision Skeins or Think Twice

also, to reduce the storm count... why are we not running lightning bolt, rift bolt, or lava spike?

Quote from sao123

why are we not playing lotus petal in this build?

I 90% agree with the removal of ideas unbound. I have never been able to cast it the turn I go off, never had UU to flashback with PIF, and too little it does to help me the turns before I go off.

I'm thinking of trying see beyond or Vision Skeins" target="blank">Vision Skeins or Think Twice

also, to reduce the storm count... why are we not running lightning bolt, rift bolt, or lava spike?

Lotus Petal isn't legal in modern, you mean lotus bloom. I run lotus bloom in my Dragonstorm deck, but you have to remember you cannot flashback the lotus bloom.

EDIT: I am currently goldfish with Lotus bloom, and its really not bad. getting UUU off of it is awesome, makes Ideas Unbound able to stay around. I tend to play Sleight of Hand and Peer through Depths to set up the turns prior, then ideals on the turn I was going off.

On card selections:

See Beyond: Dig 2, get 1, 2 mana, no discard. No.

Vision Skeins: Draw 2 cards for 2 mana is good, but feeding your opponent counterspells? I don't feel like doing that.

Think Twice: 2-mana cycling is not what this deck wants. It's pretty rare you're durdling around on Turn 3, anyway.

Ideas Unbound: Should be a mainstay in the "Other Options" section. Draw 3 is great. UU hurts a lot, though.

Burn: The burn slot can be filled by either Lightning Bolt (the best 1-mana damage spell ever) or Magma Jet (Scry 2 is pretty decent, but the 2 cmc hurts). I don't like other options because of their lack of flexibility.

Simian Spirit Guide: As a land substitute, he's decent, but not stellar. As a ritual, he's not an instant or sorcery spell, so that just about kicks him out.

Sulfur Falls: Pretty good idea, as I've had problems using Gitaxian Probe against Zoo (thank goodness for 1-mana cantrips in that match-up). Time to edit my decklist!

I must be playing this deck wrong, because I find I am not going off until I get 5 lands... whats a turn 3 goldfish look like?

Quote from sao123

I must be playing this deck wrong, because I find I am not going off until I get 5 lands... whats a turn 3 goldfish look like?

I just started goldfishing this deck today actually. I have played T.E.S and Belcher in the past, so I kind of know whats going to work...

But first, what does your decklist look like? since I just started playing this deck, I don't know if my version is way off.

here is mine:


Don't know if I am going in the right direction...

Has any one thought about City of Brass and Gemstone Mine for Duress and/or Silence like T.E.S in legacy for a little protection before going off?

Quote from Arcane Wizard »

well this is my version. i like noxious revival to return another noxious revival, and again and again for a bigger storm. :P.

Oh people mentioning Noxious Revival, it puts the card on top of your library, not in your hand, so you can't just keep looping it, sorry.

Quote from sao123

I must be playing this deck wrong, because I find I am not going off until I get 5 lands... whats a turn 3 goldfish look like?

A Turn 3 goldfish looks like this:

On the field

• 2 Steam Vents
• 1 Island

In your hand

• 2 Desperate Ritual
• 1 Seething Song
• 1 Manamorphose
• 1 Past in Flames
• 1 Grapeshot

In the graveyard

• 1 Serum Visions
• 2 Sleight of Hand

1. Tap all lands for Seething Song (5 mana, 1 storm)
2. Cast spliced Desperate Ritual (7 mana, 2 storm)
3. Cast other Desperate Ritual (8 mana, 3 storm)
4. Cast Manamorphose; filter for UU and draw a card (8 mana, 4 storm)
5. Cast drawn Pyretic Ritual (9 mana, 5 storm)
6. Cast Grapeshot (7 mana, 6 total damage, 6 storm)
7. Cast Past in Flames (3 mana, 6 total damage, 7 storm)
8. Flashback Pyretic Ritual (4 mana, 6 total damage, 8 storm)
9. Flashback Seething Song (6 mana, 6 total damage, 9 storm)
10. Flashback Desperate Ritual (7 mana, 6 total damage, 10 storm)
11. Flashback Desperate Ritual (8 mana, 6 total damage, 11 storm)
12. Flashback Manamorphose; filter for UU and draw a card (8 mana, 6 total damage, 12 storm)
13. Flashback Sleight of Hand; get Gitaxian Probe (7 mana, 6 total damage, 13 storm)
14. Cast Gitaxian Probe; draw a card (7 mana, 6 total damage, 14 storm)
15. Cast drawn Seething Song (9 mana, 6 total damage, 15 storm)
16. Flashback Grapeshot (7 mana, 22 total damage, 16 storm)

Dang lucky hand and topdecks you needed, but it's possible. Turn 4 wins are much more likely.

Quote from Bandit

But first, what does your decklist look like?

i started with Jacon Van Lunens List, and made a few changes:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/167

Quote from sao123

i started with Jacon Van Lunens List, and made a few changes:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/167

Bandit's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
18 Lands 4 Scalding Tarn 3 Cascade bluffs 4 Shivan Reef 2 Steam Vents 1 Halimar Depths 2 Island 2 Mountain	Draw Spells 4 Sleight of Hand 4 Serum visions 4 Peer Through Depths 4 Gitaxian Probe OR 4 Ideas Unbound Mana Fixing 4 Manamorphose 4 Desperate Ritual 4 Pyretic Ritual 4 Seething Song	Win Condition 4 Past in Flames 4 Grapeshot 2 Magma Jet

I just don't like Serum Visions...I want it to be but it never preforms they way I feel it should. I would run Probe and Ideas Unbound and get rid of visions.

What about a deck using izzet boilerworks and twiddle/dreams grip?


This deck is a pain to play on MTGO... Does any one want to test some modern on there?

Quote from gpoc

Yeah I've been running 4 city of brass + one Breeding pool and one watery grave to splash Duress, Ancient grudge flashbacks and nature's claim. Mainly because I found myself getting stomped by affinity prior to the switch, and once you splash green you might aswell splash black to help with the control matchup. Which is already pretty good since I run pacts in the SB.

I just remember using Orim's Chant to either allow you to go off or to stop your opponent for a turn. Silence gives you the same affect, without the kicker option of course.

Duress and Thought Seize give us disruption that can also help in certain match ups.

Though we still have Remand in our colors already...

I mean the deck goldfishes fine with out these kinds of cards, but I in a real match, all of these cards buy us an extra turn and/or protection to go off.

Someone had asked about whether Pyromancer Ascension was useful. I playtested a lot with it and it's not bad on game 1. It usually means you win on turn 4 (turn 3 is possible but difficult) but I prefer peer through depths to be honest (more consistent turn 3 wins.) Peer through depths is usually a better turn two play, it almost always finds me what I'm missing to go off and it's still useful on game 2, where Pyromancer ascension is not at all. There are way too many sideboard options against it IMO.

On a related note, I change my deck up a lot on game 2. I pull 4 past in flame and 4 grapeshot and put in 4 empty the warrens and 4 goblin bushwhacker. It costs the same 6 mana to pull of the combo but it's hilarious when someone is sitting there with extirpate or relic of Progenitus or Leyline of the void and you have a totally different win-con.

So couldn't we remove Serum Visions for Reach Through Mists since it has the ability to let you Splice Desperate Ritual to it? half of the time it would be a free spell. I just don't love the 2 cantrips people seem forced into running.

Sorry to chime in here, but as someone who has spliced many an arcane spell, that might be worth testing due to the fact that free cards are free. Splicing on to Desperate Ritual is pretty good too.

1-mana cantrips that don't filter your cards are pretty bad, though. I've been happy enough splicing Desperate Rituals onto each other only. (Seriously, if you're sitting on 4+ mana, splicing those Rituals is the better play. You get 3 mana per 2 cards instead of 2 mana per 2 cards.)

I want my Desperate Rituals to be rituals, not cantrips. For that reason and the one above, I'm rejecting Reach Through Mists.

I'm curious how this deck has been doing recently with the bans. I like the past in flames turn 3-4 explosion strategy so I think I will be building this deck soon as it seems viable, cheap, and a blast to play in both casual and modern play. I am wondering, will it be worth it to pick up all the pieces to this deck? Can it hold it's own against the archetype still? And is the past in flames grapeshot build optimal, or could a bushwaker empty the warrens style be viable?

Hmmmm...

Florian Pils got 12 points with this at Worlds:


And the legendary Bob Maher got 12 points with this jumble of a deck:


So Empty the Warrens might be the way to go for further consistency. This may also be why both players only used 3 Past in Flames maindeck.

There have to be ways for us to get better at this--we won less than half our matches at Worlds!

(The Magma Jet experiment isn't working out, as 2 damage per 2 mana sort of sucks--either more dig or back to Lightning Bolt for me...)

There is something I don't get in Pils's sideboard, why the storage lands and when does he want to side them in? Is there something I am missing?

Quote from discodude

There is something I don't get in Pils's sideboard, why the storage lands and when does he want to side them in? Is there something I am missing?

He also has Gigadrowse on the sideboard. The idea is to build up enough mana on the storage lands to Gigadrowse all the opponent's permanents at his EOT, then go combo safely during your turn.