I know the feeling from when I used to play this deck. I always wanted to have an artist alter him to be a red shirt from Star Trek, Kenny from South Park, or something along those lines.
Brilliant
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Playing modern: all BGx, storm, burn, green eldrazi, dredge.
Thoughts on Lifebane Zombie in the sideboard? I could see it being useful against mirror-sided Baneslayer Angel and Thrun, the Last Troll. Good against hatebears and Geist of Saint Traft. Perhaps Jund as well. I hadn't seen him discussed at all previously in this thread but wanted to gather some thoughts since I just happened upon one.
It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, but turns out I will be going to GP richmond for sure and I'll probably play junk. My list is linked in my sig for reference. I have a couple questions:
What's the consensus on voice of resurgence in this deck nowadays? It seems good, but it looks like kitchen finks would be better in a lot of situations for my deck. I've really enjoyed playing kitchen finks in a lot of match ups, and may consider playing 4-of in the 75, and maybe moving some of them mainboard.
Secondly, has there been any notable results from this deck lately? I seem to remember there was a top 16 with this deck at one of the last couple of GP's but I can't remember. Regardless, I know I don't want to be playing jund because it's really overrated, IMO, but I'd really like to see if this deck is still going to be worth playing at a GP. I'd like to believe it is, but this deck has been known to just crap out on me from time to time at competitive events.
It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, but turns out I will be going to GP richmond for sure and I'll probably play junk. My list is linked in my sig for reference. I have a couple questions:
What's the consensus on voice of resurgence in this deck nowadays? It seems good, but it looks like kitchen finks would be better in a lot of situations for my deck. I've really enjoyed playing kitchen finks in a lot of match ups, and may consider playing 4-of in the 75, and maybe moving some of them mainboard.
Secondly, has there been any notable results from this deck lately? I seem to remember there was a top 16 with this deck at one of the last couple of GP's but I can't remember. Regardless, I know I don't want to be playing jund because it's really overrated, IMO, but I'd really like to see if this deck is still going to be worth playing at a GP. I'd like to believe it is, but this deck has been known to just crap out on me from time to time at competitive events.
I'm looking at your list and have a few questions.
What would you replace with the Voice of Resurgences?
When do you side in Thalias?
Are all the one-ofs really that useful?
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Collecting Maw of the Mire! Feel free to send me any you have, so long as they're in reasonable condition.
I'm looking at your list and have a few questions.
What would you replace with the Voice of Resurgences?
Don't have a clue, honestly. Maybe kotr, but I really enjoy playing with KotR.
When do you side in Thalias?
Decks playing lots of spells, or dudes with 2 toughness. Burn is a great one to bring in thalia, surprisingly. A lot of people are kind of skeptical about thalia, but I enjoy using her in some match ups. I'm definitely open to changing it to something else though.
Are all the one-ofs really that useful?
Yes. A lot of them are good against a bunch of different decks and in my local meta, I think it's kind of nice to have a wide variety of answers that can be useful against a bunch of different problems. Although, my sideboard actually changes from event to event, so the one that you see up there now includes some cards that I don't typically play.
I think in my recent play-testing, I'll probably switch the 4 IoK's to 4 thoughtseize, and put some IoK's sideboard. I really hate how suicidal this deck is, but there's so much jank going around and so little burn and aggro that IoK is just really disappointing quite frequently. Of course, that means I'll play burn and heavy aggro when I show up with a full playset of thoughseize at the GP :rolleyes:.
In a GP you would probably expect to face of against tier 1 decks, so your sideboard should include answers to those decks. Not running 3 or 4 copies of stony silence seems like a bad idea. Chances of facing Tron, Affinity or Birthing-pod is overwhelmingly large. I would also include Torpor Orb and Spellskite against splinter twin. Torpor Orb is also very important against Melira-pod, as the Murderous Redcap completely decimates this deck. I would suggest Nihil Spellbomb against Living end, which has picked up a lot of steam of late and will probably see much play in the coming GPs.
Most jund and junk lists run 3 thoughtseize and 2 or 3 inquisition. Thoughtseize is the most important card to win against the weird decks you might never have played against, like Hive Mind, Netsuke, etc.
I wasn't a fan of 6 hand disruption spells when I played jund, but I suppose I could give it a shot. Either way, I think I'm going to better off with some more thoughtseize in the 75. I'll probably take out the lingering souls and add hand disruption. I may leave one lingering souls in, or maybe take out the scavenging ooze and put in to finks mainboard. I really like finks.
As for stoney silence, I have yet to really try it. Is it really worth it? I know I might sound crazy, but it seems awfully narrow. Against tron, all it does is turn off baubles and relic of progenitus. Granted, relic is threatening to us, but the real threats aren't those cards. Against affinity, although it does turn off quite a few of their mana sources, the only thing that we're really worried about is etched champion and cranial plating, only one of which is stopped by stony silence. Not sure why you'd even bother to bring it in against pod. Pod is literally the only artifact, and although pod helps the deck out a lot, there's only 4 in the deck. Furthermore, a lot of pod players I play against side out the pods against decks like mine. Like I said, maybe I'm just crazy, but I really don't like stony silence. Though, I'll give it a try, I suppose.
Now all those are 4 offs, so that's exactly half the cards in the deck (not counting lands). Pretty nice I would say for 1 card. Some also run mindslaver as their wincon so yeh you should try it.
Affinity win mostly with Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating. If you have stony silence out they will litterally only have loads of 1/1s and 0/1s left. A lingering souls and that card can win nearly on their own against them.
Melira-pod I used to only side in one, but after losing 3 matches against them in a row, I realized that the games I won was where I drew the stony silence. Winning against an active birthing pod is nearly impossible with this deck. They just chug out redcaps to kill our bobs/oozes/deathrites and then reveillark to do it again. If you have loads of spirits they find an Orzhov Pontiff to clean the board and also get rid of bob. I haven't played with 3 more than 1 match, but I won that one so I'm going to continue siding in 3 actually, as well as 2 torpor orbs.
Stoney Silence is literally the best card you can possibly cast against Affinity. Not only does it make cranial plating and arcbound ravager useless, but it shuts off mana from Springleaf Drum, Mox Opal, and Darksteel Citadel, which leaves Glimmervoid as their only source of colored mana. So even if they board in enchantment removal and draw it, they still need to get lucky and hit a glimmervoid just to cast it.
So yeah, I really think 4 mirran crusaders is the way to go. It's really good against two of the biggest threats: jund and pod. And by really good, I mean, it's so good I get an erection when I cast it against those decks.
Turns out stony silence is pretty decent, too. I also think I'm going to change out some abrupt decays with go for the throats. Creature removal just seems a lot more important than anything else.
I think that yea Mirran Crusader is absolutely ridiculous against the certain decks it hoses, but it's all about your meta. I feel like against Jund or the mirror it will be the biggest target for lightning bolt or path, but I know that argument can be said about a number of things. I would make it a 2-3x sideboard card at most personally, I am always seeing merfolk, UWR, and Tron for which there are plenty of better options.
Personally I don't feel that stressed when I see a mirran against me. If I haven't used IoK or thoughtseize on it, I can still path it or use Liliana to get rid of him. Worst case I can chump or even quadruple block it with lingering souls tokens. Against pod it will be your best card though. The problem we have against pod is that it's hard to push through damage. With voices, finkses, wall of roots, spellskites or redcaps blocking the way it can be hard to just get them down fast enough before a pod comes online and lets them take the value train to victory. When I started modern I played with Mirrans in a hatebear kind of deck and pod was a quite good matchup just thanks to him, much more than Leonin Arbiter or Mindcensor. I can definetly see him as a sideboard for junk and have considered it.
Recently I have moved away from Elspeth though. I realized that the main difference between jund and junk is the manabase and also why The Rock is usually more successful than Junk is in large tournaments. Having to pay 3 life to play a land more than once during a game is really not something which should happen on a regular basis. It makes for quite horrid synergy with bob and thoughtseize. Melira-pod especially can usually just sit and wait while bob kills us as they have a bucketload of lifegain if they want and can really put up an impassable brick wall. I feel much more comfortable with the deck now that I just run 4 shocklands and 4 basics. Happens quite frequently that I fetch a swamp turn 1, play a shockland on turn 2 and fetch the last basic I need to play every card in my deck on turn 3. Before I often fetched shock on turn 1, shocked on turn 2 and fetched shock on turn 3 or 4 as well just to play Elspeth. Tight games often gets decided by this although it might be hard to realize that it's just due to that. Against decks that run bloodmoon in main you get punished very hard as well.
If you run a manabase to support Mirrans then they are definetly good, but I don't think that's the same deck as Liliana and with fulminator in sideboard. Jund runs 4 Blackcleave Cliffs. There is no green/black or white/black alternative to this, only Razorverge Thicket. This land doesnt work well with Liliana and fulminator so basically not very useful and I think this is the main reason why many of the best players prefer Jund over Junk.
In the Jund/Junk Mirror I believe Kitchen Finks is actually just as good and sometimes better. Not an enticing target for any of junds removal or liliana and the life gain is usually relevant.
Agreed. Although while testing with mirran crusader, I've found I'd rather go for double white to cast mirran crusader than double black for liliana in the match ups where I would bring in crusader. Fulminator mage isn't in my sideboard either.
Jund can definitely still deal with mirran crusader, obviously. Rock, much less so since they need a well-time lili edict to get rid of it. Either way, I still think they're good against those decks, and as you said, pod is really the best for them since you're right, you can just continuously get in 4 damage.
Edit: In other news: EctoMark, the writer of the current primer, has passed on responsibility of the primer to me since I expressed interest in it. I am now in the process of working on a new primer. If you'd like to make any comments/suggestions/criticism, please let me know via PM or by leaving a comment on the draft which is located here, in my blog.
You have too many dredge cards that you don't need. If you want to run a Loam engine maindeck, you don't need 4 life from the loam. When I ran mine, I did it as a 2-of.
You should put in the 4th lingering souls as well.
Darkblast is a 1-of at best.
You don't need 25 lands, 24 or 23 is the most.
You could probably do with 1 less Raven's crime.
In terms of lands, since you're running Knight of the Reliquary, you absolutely want Vault of the Archangel. Bojuka Bog is decent in the sideboard as gravehate against your opponent's deck.
Abrupt Decay also likely deserves some space in your deck.
Honestly, I'd go so far as to consider putting the loam pacakge in the sideboard, since in this format, Raven's crime can backfire horribly.
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Collecting Maw of the Mire! Feel free to send me any you have, so long as they're in reasonable condition.
I'm finding that one of the biggest problems I face with this deck is its lack of reach. To win, you basically have total reliance on getting points of damage in via creatures and the modern format has a number of answers to face that. UWR has a myriad of burn, counter, and similar white removal. Other BGx decks have the basic same package we do, aka tons of removal. Not to mention chumping or trading one for one which really doesn't help (which is why apart from Smiter making sure he gets on the field he really isn't impressive 50% of the time). Etc. As far as the top tier decks are concerned, I constantly find myself not able to get in the last crucial points of damage necessary to seal the game. Treetop Village is probably in my opinion the best resource we currently have to combat this due to trample, but that's pretty lackluster. Any thoughts? I realize the most obvious answer is "well ok then add red and bolt away and go post in the Jund thread" which I have considered but I wanted to hear any other opinions because Junk is still my favorite deck. My deck runs the basic Junk archetype, minus Goyf which admittedly could be one problem.
You have too many dredge cards that you don't need. If you want to run a Loam engine maindeck, you don't need 4 life from the loam. When I ran mine, I did it as a 2-of.
You should put in the 4th lingering souls as well.
Darkblast is a 1-of at best.
You don't need 25 lands, 24 or 23 is the most.
You could probably do with 1 less Raven's crime.
In terms of lands, since you're running Knight of the Reliquary, you absolutely want Vault of the Archangel. Bojuka Bog is decent in the sideboard as gravehate against your opponent's deck.
Abrupt Decay also likely deserves some space in your deck.
Honestly, I'd go so far as to consider putting the loam pacakge in the sideboard, since in this format, Raven's crime can backfire horribly.
Brilliant
BWGJunkBWG
BRGJundBRG
B1Eldrazi ShopsB1
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothBG
BUWJenara, Asura of WarBUW
GURAnimar, Soul of ElementsGUR
What's the consensus on voice of resurgence in this deck nowadays? It seems good, but it looks like kitchen finks would be better in a lot of situations for my deck. I've really enjoyed playing kitchen finks in a lot of match ups, and may consider playing 4-of in the 75, and maybe moving some of them mainboard.
Secondly, has there been any notable results from this deck lately? I seem to remember there was a top 16 with this deck at one of the last couple of GP's but I can't remember. Regardless, I know I don't want to be playing jund because it's really overrated, IMO, but I'd really like to see if this deck is still going to be worth playing at a GP. I'd like to believe it is, but this deck has been known to just crap out on me from time to time at competitive events.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
I'm looking at your list and have a few questions.
What would you replace with the Voice of Resurgences?
When do you side in Thalias?
Are all the one-ofs really that useful?
Don't have a clue, honestly. Maybe kotr, but I really enjoy playing with KotR.
Decks playing lots of spells, or dudes with 2 toughness. Burn is a great one to bring in thalia, surprisingly. A lot of people are kind of skeptical about thalia, but I enjoy using her in some match ups. I'm definitely open to changing it to something else though.
Yes. A lot of them are good against a bunch of different decks and in my local meta, I think it's kind of nice to have a wide variety of answers that can be useful against a bunch of different problems. Although, my sideboard actually changes from event to event, so the one that you see up there now includes some cards that I don't typically play.
I think in my recent play-testing, I'll probably switch the 4 IoK's to 4 thoughtseize, and put some IoK's sideboard. I really hate how suicidal this deck is, but there's so much jank going around and so little burn and aggro that IoK is just really disappointing quite frequently. Of course, that means I'll play burn and heavy aggro when I show up with a full playset of thoughseize at the GP :rolleyes:.
Modern Junk Primer
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L1 Judge
Most jund and junk lists run 3 thoughtseize and 2 or 3 inquisition. Thoughtseize is the most important card to win against the weird decks you might never have played against, like Hive Mind, Netsuke, etc.
As for stoney silence, I have yet to really try it. Is it really worth it? I know I might sound crazy, but it seems awfully narrow. Against tron, all it does is turn off baubles and relic of progenitus. Granted, relic is threatening to us, but the real threats aren't those cards. Against affinity, although it does turn off quite a few of their mana sources, the only thing that we're really worried about is etched champion and cranial plating, only one of which is stopped by stony silence. Not sure why you'd even bother to bring it in against pod. Pod is literally the only artifact, and although pod helps the deck out a lot, there's only 4 in the deck. Furthermore, a lot of pod players I play against side out the pods against decks like mine. Like I said, maybe I'm just crazy, but I really don't like stony silence. Though, I'll give it a try, I suppose.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Chromatic Star
Chromatic Sphere
Oblivion Stone
Relic of Progenitus
Experdition Map
Now all those are 4 offs, so that's exactly half the cards in the deck (not counting lands). Pretty nice I would say for 1 card. Some also run mindslaver as their wincon so yeh you should try it.
Affinity win mostly with Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating. If you have stony silence out they will litterally only have loads of 1/1s and 0/1s left. A lingering souls and that card can win nearly on their own against them.
Melira-pod I used to only side in one, but after losing 3 matches against them in a row, I realized that the games I won was where I drew the stony silence. Winning against an active birthing pod is nearly impossible with this deck. They just chug out redcaps to kill our bobs/oozes/deathrites and then reveillark to do it again. If you have loads of spirits they find an Orzhov Pontiff to clean the board and also get rid of bob. I haven't played with 3 more than 1 match, but I won that one so I'm going to continue siding in 3 actually, as well as 2 torpor orbs.
anyways, here's my updated list. I still have 3 sideboard slots open. I'll definitely try the stony silence.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Kitchen Finks
Spells
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Infest
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Mirran Crusader
I like the mirran crusaders. They're a lot of fun against all the other bg/x decks.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Against the right deck, they're hilarious.
Me: Mirran Crusader.
Opponent: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Turns out stony silence is pretty decent, too. I also think I'm going to change out some abrupt decays with go for the throats. Creature removal just seems a lot more important than anything else.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
BWGJunkBWG
BRGJundBRG
B1Eldrazi ShopsB1
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothBG
BUWJenara, Asura of WarBUW
GURAnimar, Soul of ElementsGUR
Recently I have moved away from Elspeth though. I realized that the main difference between jund and junk is the manabase and also why The Rock is usually more successful than Junk is in large tournaments. Having to pay 3 life to play a land more than once during a game is really not something which should happen on a regular basis. It makes for quite horrid synergy with bob and thoughtseize. Melira-pod especially can usually just sit and wait while bob kills us as they have a bucketload of lifegain if they want and can really put up an impassable brick wall. I feel much more comfortable with the deck now that I just run 4 shocklands and 4 basics. Happens quite frequently that I fetch a swamp turn 1, play a shockland on turn 2 and fetch the last basic I need to play every card in my deck on turn 3. Before I often fetched shock on turn 1, shocked on turn 2 and fetched shock on turn 3 or 4 as well just to play Elspeth. Tight games often gets decided by this although it might be hard to realize that it's just due to that. Against decks that run bloodmoon in main you get punished very hard as well.
If you run a manabase to support Mirrans then they are definetly good, but I don't think that's the same deck as Liliana and with fulminator in sideboard. Jund runs 4 Blackcleave Cliffs. There is no green/black or white/black alternative to this, only Razorverge Thicket. This land doesnt work well with Liliana and fulminator so basically not very useful and I think this is the main reason why many of the best players prefer Jund over Junk.
In the Jund/Junk Mirror I believe Kitchen Finks is actually just as good and sometimes better. Not an enticing target for any of junds removal or liliana and the life gain is usually relevant.
Jund can definitely still deal with mirran crusader, obviously. Rock, much less so since they need a well-time lili edict to get rid of it. Either way, I still think they're good against those decks, and as you said, pod is really the best for them since you're right, you can just continuously get in 4 damage.
Edit: In other news: EctoMark, the writer of the current primer, has passed on responsibility of the primer to me since I expressed interest in it. I am now in the process of working on a new primer. If you'd like to make any comments/suggestions/criticism, please let me know via PM or by leaving a comment on the draft which is located here, in my blog.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Life from the Loam
3x Raven's Crime
2x Thoughtseize
3x Darkblast
4x Path to Exile
3x Lingering Souls
Some # of Ghost Quarter & Tech Edge
1x Horizon Canopy
Thoughts? LotV probably belongs in here somewhere too
You have too many dredge cards that you don't need. If you want to run a Loam engine maindeck, you don't need 4 life from the loam. When I ran mine, I did it as a 2-of.
You should put in the 4th lingering souls as well.
Darkblast is a 1-of at best.
You don't need 25 lands, 24 or 23 is the most.
You could probably do with 1 less Raven's crime.
In terms of lands, since you're running Knight of the Reliquary, you absolutely want Vault of the Archangel. Bojuka Bog is decent in the sideboard as gravehate against your opponent's deck.
Abrupt Decay also likely deserves some space in your deck.
Honestly, I'd go so far as to consider putting the loam pacakge in the sideboard, since in this format, Raven's crime can backfire horribly.
BWGJunkBWG
BRGJundBRG
B1Eldrazi ShopsB1
UAzami, Lady of ScrollsU
BGMeren of Clan Nel TothBG
BUWJenara, Asura of WarBUW
GURAnimar, Soul of ElementsGUR
Great comments. Thanks!
How about something along the lines of:
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
Spells (18)
3x Life from the Loam
2x Raven's Crime
2x Thoughtseize
1x Darkblast
4x Path to Exile
4x Lingering Souls
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
Some # of Ghost Quarter & Tech Edge
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Bojuka Bog
I personally would take out the 3rd Life from the loam to put in the 4th Confidant.
I would also encourage you to give my your Tarmogoyfs.