I'd definitely be interested in seeing how Pack Rat holds up in this deck. 25 lands feels like too many, as we now, with the cutting of thrun, curve out at 3.
I think Thrun vs. no Thrun is a meta call, and depends on how much UWR control decks you expect.
I definitely like mutavault with packrat, it feels like a natural fit, but I also feel like utilizing filter lands makes colorless
lands worse, and cutting down on edges softens us vs. the colonnade/ravine decks as well as tron G1.
I don't have a lot of experience with the deck, so take that all with a grain of salt.
Flooding at 25 lands is certainly an issue but hopefully mitigated by 9 value lands and 2 courser. I tend to not think of tec edge as much of a land. Maybe the answer is go up in courser count. Plus, resolved rats or Lillianas have a way of making flooding not so bad. The MD thruns have been a house in testing UWR, and I expect it to be decently popular. I wonder how much of a downgrade rat is in this matchup. Play it at 5 mana to play round leak and then make a new one in response to removal. The mutavaults vs lost tec edge is prob a wash. I know we can pick up percentage points against Pod by playing the rat and against affinity by playing mutavault (blocks etched champion).
That's a fair point. Courser + Rat means you're almost never going to flood, and having a MD out to champion is nice.
I honestly think this deck should absolutely crush Affinity with or without Creeping corrosion in the board, as we are basically able to answer everything they put onto the table.
I would think Rat would be a significant downgrade, as by waiting until we have 5 lands extends us to turn 5+ just to get a threat on the board that can die to a supreme verdict (whereas thrun can regen through, though that would put him at a virtual 6). Rat also feels worse in the mirror with things like Maelstrom pulse running around.
Excellent points on Verdict and Pulse. Also, Jund can have MD anger now which is worrisome.
I haven't played this deck much. I was just worried pod and affinity- two of the most popular decks- both look bad on paper.
I'm going to try Rat tonight and will report back.
The other question I had is how important is Creeping Corrosion. All the online lists have it as a 3 of. I understand that it colds affinity, but won't they be expecting it? Won't they play around it a little and/or board in thoughtseize. Even still, they can kill on T4-5. If we miss a land drop or don't have double green, it can be an issue. I was thinking about trying more disfigure, golgari charm or nature's claim. Cheap flexible answers may be better or at least not worse and may give us more cards in other matchups. I don't really want to be playing the Back to Nature that I see in other lists anyways so a natures claim, deglamer, or seal of primordium could be relevant there as well. Anyone out there NOT run creeping corrosion?
My experience with creeping corrosion (sorcery) is that it IS slow. They will probably thoughtseize it b4 you play it. I've been pondering a 1/1 split maindeck with pules and putrify to aid in the affinity match. As long as you keep overseer and arcbound off the board golgari charm (instant) will kill almost all their dudes.
Putrid leech, it was a house a long time ago with blood braid elf and blightning lol. I'd be willing to test it in place of kruphix but idk. I love the synergy between confidant and kruphix. This guy had to cut back on the best card in the deck to mitigate the life lose of leech. Plus, no edges? This deck is straight agro. I would imagine it's matchup with combo is good and it might out race control.
I played the below list a few rounds. Played against Shamans, genesis wave, and Kiki pod-so not exactly the best sample size. I was blown out in the kikipod matchup, but the other two matchups became very grindy (lead the stampede out of shamans and e witness chains out of gwave helped them keep up). Pack rat and mutavault both pulled their weight in these games. I was impressed with mutavault's ability to supplement treetop village. At 25 lands, I certainly flooded a decent bit, but it allowed me to aggressively trade manlands, tick down Lilliana, and the game was on as soon as I pulled a rat off the top. I think 25 lands are here to stay for me even if I end up skipping out on the rats. Also, I felt the manabase is really fragile and squeezed, and I regrettably need to cut a colorless land for another colored source.
The sideboard needs work. The nature's claim is probably unnecessary. I was considering the skinrenders in the above list. They have a lot of value vs pod and the mirror. Maybe we want something like shriekmaw for it's flexibility and value. I also want to squeeze batterskull into the list somewhere for post board games.
I played Yesterday with this archetype at my local PTQ. First of all, i'm clearly changing the way we are testing(my playgroup)... i didn't know what to remove from the deck in many games 2. i did too many games 1. i realized that after the game 2. i did 5-3 but realistically i was out of top 8 after round 3 (i was 1-2)
here is the decklist i was playing:
the meta was full of KikiPOD (4 in the top8 i believe) and Rug and UR Twin and Jund And Scapeshift
Sideboard plan!
the format is still fresh and fun. the fact is, other players MIGHT not know how to SB atm just like me. I'm not the only one! alot of grinders are not the owner of their deck. Winning or losing the match, i asked for SB advice every time i finished a match after the round 3. What do you bring in and out? What do you think of that? why you did that?... I thought i was bad. Some people are worse than me. I know the pros like to remind us the format is wide open, just learn a deck and play it. this is just true. We should add a mini SB guide in the primer of what your deck need in this match up and what it doesn't need. BTW some descriptions in the primer still talk about DRS.
Thoughtseize! http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26855_Thoughtseize-You.html
the article linked in the first page is awesome. just to know how to play it in various situations. thoughtseize into bob (and shocking yourself 2 time in the process) is not always the right play. Even if the card is the NUTS please try to know when to sideboard it out. if you know your going in topdeck mode (i did 3 mirror 2 jund and 1 GB) 2 of them told me they kept the toughseize for various reason in game 2 which i still believe is bad.
Courser of Kruphix!
It was ok... Seriously there is not enough aggro atm to make it worth it and the ability to "draw" the lands of the top of your library seem ok at best. your opponent get information and the lifegain is marginal. i think i want to max out the Ooze to 4 and play something bigger that make me win like Thrun, Garruk Wildspeaker, Relentless or even Desacration Demon that i saw as a 1-of in some decklist online.
Manabase!
the false pretended safer manabase over jund: i did at least 3-4 mulligan of "perfect hand" with no Black or no colour at all with 4 tec edge 4 treetop and 2 Forest you will wonder "where is my black?"
Sure Treetop is cheaper to activate but Raging Ravine is a colour fixer in Jund! i will for sure trim 1 forest and may be even a Tec edge with 4 tec edge 2 Twilight Mire, you might ask yourself with some hands "where is my colored mana!?"
My thinking in those situation is "to Mull if your hand do nothing" don't try to draw the land(only to wait 3 turn to draw a treetop that enter the battle field tapped)
i ambivalent about this Twilight Mire because of those situations. and i don't what to run more than 1 Urborg cause of legend rule.
anyways i will trim 1 tec edge i think. but my point is, we are far from perfect mana and Tec Edge/Fullminator Mage startegy are good against us just as well.
With that being said, here is the decklist i would play in a upcoming Modern event (Next FNM?).
MD -3 Courser +1 Thrun +1 Ooze +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Tec Edge -1 Forest +1 Marsh Flat +1 Overgrown Tomb
SB -2 Finks were useless anyways. +2 Baloth might be good against Liliana.
Removing the bulk of the lifegain from the deck really doesnt make any sense.
kikipod is one of our best matchups.
you side in all of your removal and discard that can hit resto and kiki.
G1 barring a nut draw for t3 win or perfect t4 hand we have it everytime. Mulligan aggresively to make sure that you have answers. Going to 6 or 5 isnt a big deal against this deck, we'll force many 2-1s as it is. They try to play an uninteractive game 1, we should always be able to win it. g1 we can either keep them off trip red with tec edge or obliterator will get you there (the most they can do is fly over the top).
My meta is full of u/r and u/w/r. How you play against each is very dependent on the version of u/w/r they are running. Against straight control, tectonic edge is an all star. Make your land drops, don't rush to play anything, and save discard for when you want to play something. Best to clear a path for liliana (couldn't imagine siding her out against u/w/r control). Three fulms/rain of tears MUST come in. While Thrun finishes, land disruption wins you the game.
While decays come out against control, measure how much removal you keep in depending on how much midrange you see. Resto is best against this deck, but save dismembers/slaughter pacts for her. And yes, 4 treetops is a MUST. This deck needs lands much less than u/w/r. Treetop is what finishes many games. Four treetops/edges does increase mulligans, but this deck has very powerful 5 and 6 card hands, that's why this deck can play 4 edges.
I like sword l/s in if we are playing fulminators. Without fulms, I would stick with batterskull.
Against u/w/r I prefer to play very patient, leaving mana open as needed and wait for discard to clear the way. If you can get them to path a turn two bob, you are way ahead. Never tap out with Thrun on the board. Two blocking scapcasters kills him.
This is a skill intensive deck that rewards knowledge of the format. Certainly can have powerful openings, but not a deck that gives a lot of game one free wins.
I still need to get a sideboarding plan up for both decktypes.
against burn heavy decks side out bob and thoughtseize
against mirror matchtypes side out discard and in all your removal and creatures (ill talk more about how/why/when to do this when i write the SB strat)
against combo decks you side in all discard and removal you have for combo pieces, siding out your slower gridier cards (kruphix, some thrun/oblit)
I sent a message to duke reid hoping he'd help me clarify some things but I havent heard back.
RE the Legend Rule and Urborg:
I've been running 3 Urborgs in my budget Oblit list w/o issues. You can always tap the first, drop the second sacking the first and then tap the second. Yes you are down the land but you can land a 4 drop. Any other time when you're at 5+ lands I've found it's just not a big deal. I pitch it to Lili, and it always represents a slaughter pact. I've never had to Mull an opener b/c of multiple Urborgs and the 1 time I will is totally worth it. Keep in mind I'm playing the Oblit version though where mana is critical, which I think is a tad weaker than the Tec version.
RE Desecration Demon:
I noticed that today as well. I've been running a lot of DD in another rogue deck and I'm pretty sure Abyssal Persecutor is better. I wonder if people are just feeling too soft to flyers, aka Colonnade.
@ Kakwann:
How do you like running 8 discard main? It's what I've been doing and I think I like it, although I see a lot of people are cutting to 7 with no 8th in the board. I haven't had a chance to try it out though.
I'm interested in feedback from anyone who has used Desecration Demon or Pack Rat instead of Thrun.
-IJ
While 3 urborg isnt horrible, we already have a big problem against tempo decks, and detempoing ourselves bc of our manabase isnt worth it imo.
It probably comes down to preference. In oblit rock you only need urborg to change treetops to make black anyways.
It does however make double tec edge hands keepable, which i remember having to mulligan a lot when I played the edge version.
MD -3 Courser +1 Thrun +1 Ooze +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Tec Edge -1 Forest +1 Marsh Flat +1 Overgrown Tomb
SB -2 Finks were useless anyways. +2 Baloth might be good against Liliana.
Tectonic Edge has been really strong for me. The deck operates well at 3 mana and most top decks blue decks need that 4th land. Any deck that relies on man-lands that our abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse can't hit to close the game. I think you'll want the 4th. Also, main deck batterskull seems like a mistake. Drawing him off a bob is really going to hurt. Perhaps Sword of Light and Shadow would be better. Would love to hear how your match ups go!
Running batterskull as a 1of is fine. The odds of bob flipping it are low enough. Sword of Light and Shadow MD isnt horrible, but I prefer to leave it in the SB for mirrors where it really shines. With the low creature coung that we run, in topdeck wars ripping one with no creature to attach it to can be backbreaking (whereas batterskull comes w/ a creature)
That's a fair point. Courser + Rat means you're almost never going to flood, and having a MD out to champion is nice.
I honestly think this deck should absolutely crush Affinity with or without Creeping corrosion in the board, as we are basically able to answer everything they put onto the table.
.....
The other question I had is how important is Creeping Corrosion. All the online lists have it as a 3 of. I understand that it colds affinity, but won't they be expecting it? Won't they play around it a little and/or board in thoughtseize. Even still, they can kill on T4-5. If we miss a land drop or don't have double green, it can be an issue. I was thinking about trying more disfigure, golgari charm or nature's claim. Cheap flexible answers may be better or at least not worse and may give us more cards in other matchups. I don't really want to be playing the Back to Nature that I see in other lists anyways so a natures claim, deglamer, or seal of primordium could be relevant there as well. Anyone out there NOT run creeping corrosion?
Taking out all of your lifegain seems wrong to me. Scooze just doesnt do enough by himself, and oftentimes batterskull's lifegain is too late if you didnt have a 'lifegain stepping stone' to keep you alive till you resolve it.
Creeping Corrosion is a necessary evil. You can get away will running 1-2 if you run other sweepers like drown in sorrow and golgari charm.
If they waste time playing around creeping or have to cast discard to get rid of it you're winning. Their gameplan is to go aggro as fast as possible, anything to slow them down is worth it. In theory the matchup seems easy, in testing they are just too fast for us. We have all the removal to help us survive till we can land the creeping corrosion. Really, you want to keep your other removal up to kill cranial plating pre corrosion and manlands post corrosion. Manlands are out weakest spot, as our most effective removal cant touch them (discard, abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse)
My experience with creeping corrosion (sorcery) is that it IS slow. They will probably thoughtseize it b4 you play it. I've been pondering a 1/1 split maindeck with pules and putrify to aid in the affinity match. As long as you keep overseer and arcbound off the board golgari charm (instant) will kill almost all their dudes.
It is slow, but outside of the nut draw we can usually survive is and make it to stabilizing.
Id like to see what the rest of the metagame was, my assumptions is that there was a lot of combo.
The real question to ask here is what matchups would you prefer to have Putrid leech, thrun, or pack rats.
What deck is pack rats good against, and more importantly, better than thrun?
EDIT: guess i found a bug that deleted some of my responses when i use multi quote :/
The 'proven' is only updated once every set release. We'll be back there when m15 comes out.
In the mean time, if people dont mind posting their SB strategies so we can discuss them that would be great.
I know what mine are, but Im not 100% sure on all of them and would rather not lead people astray.
Round 1: Pod Lost 1-2
Game 1 didn't draw many creatures and got beat up on by his and died to a 2 damage trigger by that 4 drop(forget the name).
Game 2 he got mana screwed and I drew perfect, beat em up and answered all his threats.
Game 3 kind of a slug fest that ended up me losing to Thune combo
sideboarded out 4 lili's brought in 2 cage, 1 spellbomb, 1 surgical
Round 2: UWR Control Won 2-0
Game 1 Thrun
Game 2 Thrun and fulm, now that I know how to play this match up there is NO reason to lose to it. I guess draws might happen.
sideboarded out 4 abrupt decay brought in 2 fulms, 1 surgical, 1 crucible (I now believe that crucible isn't really necessary I left these guys with no land without hitting crucible)
Round 3: UWR Control Draw 1-1-1
Game 1 He got it...luck sac
Game 2 I love thrun
Game 3 Drew b/c I sac'd fulm when I should't have. Could have forced an overtime turn 4 wrath which would have tapped em out. Instead he draws snap and on turn 5 flashes it, I kill it, he targets bolt, only critter on board is a treetop, draw
sideboarde same as above
Round 4: UWR Control Won 2-0
Game 1 Thrun
Game 2 Thrun (are u f in kidding me? they have NO answer to this guy!
sideboarded same as above
Round 5: Merefolk Won 2-1
Game 1 not enough removal to keep up
Game 2 too many critters on my side with just enough removal
Game 3 I won this game on the back of scooze, I had a 10/10 scooze!!!
sideboarded out 4 lili's brought in 2 charm, 2 fulm's
wish I had drown in sorrow for this match but fulm did his job I now realize he is a must for this deck despite the hefty price tag.
Round 6: D+Taxes Lost 1-2
Don't even want to talk about it, still upset but a ton of goyfs will get er done however, drown in sorrow is our only answer to Mirran Crusader, Be Aware
In the end I wished I had more surgical to play the control route against UWR and Pod. I bought drown in sorrow's after work today to replace golgari#2 and crucible.
2 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Dark Confidant
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Twilight Mire
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Darkblast
1 Dismember
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Creeping Corrosion
SB: 2 Fulminator Mage
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Phyrexian Arena
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth
I placed Top 4 at a PTQ last week with this 75. List felt super tight, and I was very happy with Wildspeaker and Darkblast. Only changes I would make are cutting Obstinate Baloth for a Bow of Nylea and perhaps a Golgari Charm for a Grafdigger's Cage. I would play this list again in a heartbeat.
r1 UR delver 2-0
r2 robots (local player) 1-2
r3 burn 2-1
r4 pod (local player) 2-1
r5 rg tron 2-1
r6 wg hatebears 2-1
r7 scapeshift 2-1
When you got 0-2ed in the top 4 what did you side board out and in? Were they playing oblit rock or edge rock? I kind of like the idea of darkblast in place of one of the dissmembers I know i was getting lit up at times by my own confidant. Is this whey you removed maelstrom pulse?
When you got 0-2ed in the top 4 what did you side board out and in? Were they playing oblit rock or edge rock? I kind of like the idea of darkblast in place of one of the dissmembers I know i was getting lit up at times by my own confidant. Is this whey you removed maelstrom pulse?
Out:
3x IoK
4x Thoughtseize
In:
1x Batterskull
1x Damnation
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Engineered Explosives
Game 1 we were both at 1 life and I died to my bob trigger - Through a lot of sequencing/zombie mode (No food for 8 hours) I made I believe my first misplay of the day that cost me dearly. I missed my dredge for my darkblast to kill my own bob. I may not have won that game anyway but the game would have kept going. Game 2 I took a million from Treetop with a hand full of Decay/Pulses. Game 2 I was unable to keep a threat on the board, and I think I only drew a Goyf or something. I needed a Fulminator, Tec Edge Slaughter Pact or Dismember and couldn't find them. My opponent was playing a standard Rock list without Obliterators - He may have had mainboard Thrun.
I still play 2 Maelstrom Pulse, I don't think I would ever cut them from the main.
Darkblast was one of the best spells in my deck all day, and I only sided it out against Tron, Scapeshift and Burn. Luckily it's not completely dead vs Scapeshift game 1, and if burn is running Hellspark it's still live. In all my other matchups it was an incredibly powerful card that single-handedly won me games.
Can you elaborate on your experience with Garruk Wildspeaker? I haven't seen him played anywhere else, and I've been wanting a solid 4 drop that can close the game, especially against pod. I'm guessing you usually play him, +1, and leave up removal? If you have a decent board state do you try to ult him ASAP to push your goyfs through? How often is the 3/3 beast good? I find myself with so many cards in hand with a t2 confidant, I can't possibly play them all, Garruk helps you just play more spells/use manlands in a turn?
Can you elaborate on your experience with Garruk Wildspeaker? I haven't seen him played anywhere else, and I've been wanting a solid 4 drop that can close the game, especially against pod. I'm guessing you usually play him, +1, and leave up removal? If you have a decent board state do you try to ult him ASAP to push your goyfs through? How often is the 3/3 beast good? I find myself with so many cards in hand with a t2 confidant, I can't possibly play them all, Garruk helps you just play more spells/use manlands in a turn?
Finally someone who likes the Wildspeaker. He does everything - Lets me advance my board rapidly when I've got a full grip, gives me 3/3s when that's all I want for Christmas, let's me do double Treetop swinging shenanigans when I don't have 6 land, and most importantly... He lets me close out a game brutally fast. He's one of the safest 'walkers to play due to the nature of his +1, he breaks board stalls and he lets me win turn 5-6 which no real iteration of GB/x can do. If you've played this deck a lot you will understand the limitations and see that this guy fixes a lot of problems. Good catches, tjd2191 you hit the nail right on the head.
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I think Thrun vs. no Thrun is a meta call, and depends on how much UWR control decks you expect.
I definitely like mutavault with packrat, it feels like a natural fit, but I also feel like utilizing filter lands makes colorless
lands worse, and cutting down on edges softens us vs. the colonnade/ravine decks as well as tron G1.
I don't have a lot of experience with the deck, so take that all with a grain of salt.
I honestly think this deck should absolutely crush Affinity with or without Creeping corrosion in the board, as we are basically able to answer everything they put onto the table.
I would think Rat would be a significant downgrade, as by waiting until we have 5 lands extends us to turn 5+ just to get a threat on the board that can die to a supreme verdict (whereas thrun can regen through, though that would put him at a virtual 6). Rat also feels worse in the mirror with things like Maelstrom pulse running around.
I haven't played this deck much. I was just worried pod and affinity- two of the most popular decks- both look bad on paper.
I'm going to try Rat tonight and will report back.
The other question I had is how important is Creeping Corrosion. All the online lists have it as a 3 of. I understand that it colds affinity, but won't they be expecting it? Won't they play around it a little and/or board in thoughtseize. Even still, they can kill on T4-5. If we miss a land drop or don't have double green, it can be an issue. I was thinking about trying more disfigure, golgari charm or nature's claim. Cheap flexible answers may be better or at least not worse and may give us more cards in other matchups. I don't really want to be playing the Back to Nature that I see in other lists anyways so a natures claim, deglamer, or seal of primordium could be relevant there as well. Anyone out there NOT run creeping corrosion?
This is the list.
2 Dark Confidant
4 Putrid Leech
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Mutavault
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
4 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Skinrender
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Phyrexian Arena
The sideboard needs work. The nature's claim is probably unnecessary. I was considering the skinrenders in the above list. They have a lot of value vs pod and the mirror. Maybe we want something like shriekmaw for it's flexibility and value. I also want to squeeze batterskull into the list somewhere for post board games.
3 Mutavault
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 swamp
1 forest
2 tectonic edge
2 twilight mire
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Marsh flats
4 dark confidant
3 scavenging ooze
3 pack rat
2 courser of kruphix
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
4 Lilliana of the veil
2 dismember
1 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
4 fulminator mage
2 creeping corrosion
2 golgari charm
1 drown in sorrow
2 disfigure
1 nature's claim
1 thrun, the last troll
1 obstinate baloth
1 grafdigger's cage
Removing the bulk of the lifegain from the deck really doesnt make any sense.
kikipod is one of our best matchups.
you side in all of your removal and discard that can hit resto and kiki.
G1 barring a nut draw for t3 win or perfect t4 hand we have it everytime. Mulligan aggresively to make sure that you have answers. Going to 6 or 5 isnt a big deal against this deck, we'll force many 2-1s as it is. They try to play an uninteractive game 1, we should always be able to win it. g1 we can either keep them off trip red with tec edge or obliterator will get you there (the most they can do is fly over the top).
I still need to get a sideboarding plan up for both decktypes.
against burn heavy decks side out bob and thoughtseize
against mirror matchtypes side out discard and in all your removal and creatures (ill talk more about how/why/when to do this when i write the SB strat)
against combo decks you side in all discard and removal you have for combo pieces, siding out your slower gridier cards (kruphix, some thrun/oblit)
I sent a message to duke reid hoping he'd help me clarify some things but I havent heard back.
While 3 urborg isnt horrible, we already have a big problem against tempo decks, and detempoing ourselves bc of our manabase isnt worth it imo.
It probably comes down to preference. In oblit rock you only need urborg to change treetops to make black anyways.
It does however make double tec edge hands keepable, which i remember having to mulligan a lot when I played the edge version.
Running batterskull as a 1of is fine. The odds of bob flipping it are low enough. Sword of Light and Shadow MD isnt horrible, but I prefer to leave it in the SB for mirrors where it really shines. With the low creature coung that we run, in topdeck wars ripping one with no creature to attach it to can be backbreaking (whereas batterskull comes w/ a creature)
Taking out all of your lifegain seems wrong to me. Scooze just doesnt do enough by himself, and oftentimes batterskull's lifegain is too late if you didnt have a 'lifegain stepping stone' to keep you alive till you resolve it.
Creeping Corrosion is a necessary evil. You can get away will running 1-2 if you run other sweepers like drown in sorrow and golgari charm.
If they waste time playing around creeping or have to cast discard to get rid of it you're winning. Their gameplan is to go aggro as fast as possible, anything to slow them down is worth it. In theory the matchup seems easy, in testing they are just too fast for us. We have all the removal to help us survive till we can land the creeping corrosion. Really, you want to keep your other removal up to kill cranial plating pre corrosion and manlands post corrosion. Manlands are out weakest spot, as our most effective removal cant touch them (discard, abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse)
It is slow, but outside of the nut draw we can usually survive is and make it to stabilizing.
Id like to see what the rest of the metagame was, my assumptions is that there was a lot of combo.
The real question to ask here is what matchups would you prefer to have Putrid leech, thrun, or pack rats.
What deck is pack rats good against, and more importantly, better than thrun?
EDIT: guess i found a bug that deleted some of my responses when i use multi quote :/
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
In the mean time, if people dont mind posting their SB strategies so we can discuss them that would be great.
I know what mine are, but Im not 100% sure on all of them and would rather not lead people astray.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scooze
2 Thrun
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana
2 Dissmember
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Putrify
4 Inquisition
3 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Wooded Cemetery
1 Urborg, ToY
4 Tec Edge
4 Treetop
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Sideboard:
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Obstinant Baloth
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spellskite
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Crucible of World's
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Round 1: Pod Lost 1-2
Game 1 didn't draw many creatures and got beat up on by his and died to a 2 damage trigger by that 4 drop(forget the name).
Game 2 he got mana screwed and I drew perfect, beat em up and answered all his threats.
Game 3 kind of a slug fest that ended up me losing to Thune combo
sideboarded out 4 lili's brought in 2 cage, 1 spellbomb, 1 surgical
Round 2: UWR Control Won 2-0
Game 1 Thrun
Game 2 Thrun and fulm, now that I know how to play this match up there is NO reason to lose to it. I guess draws might happen.
sideboarded out 4 abrupt decay brought in 2 fulms, 1 surgical, 1 crucible (I now believe that crucible isn't really necessary I left these guys with no land without hitting crucible)
Round 3: UWR Control Draw 1-1-1
Game 1 He got it...luck sac
Game 2 I love thrun
Game 3 Drew b/c I sac'd fulm when I should't have. Could have forced an overtime turn 4 wrath which would have tapped em out. Instead he draws snap and on turn 5 flashes it, I kill it, he targets bolt, only critter on board is a treetop, draw
sideboarde same as above
Round 4: UWR Control Won 2-0
Game 1 Thrun
Game 2 Thrun (are u f in kidding me? they have NO answer to this guy!
sideboarded same as above
Round 5: Merefolk Won 2-1
Game 1 not enough removal to keep up
Game 2 too many critters on my side with just enough removal
Game 3 I won this game on the back of scooze, I had a 10/10 scooze!!!
sideboarded out 4 lili's brought in 2 charm, 2 fulm's
wish I had drown in sorrow for this match but fulm did his job I now realize he is a must for this deck despite the hefty price tag.
Round 6: D+Taxes Lost 1-2
Don't even want to talk about it, still upset but a ton of goyfs will get er done however, drown in sorrow is our only answer to Mirran Crusader, Be Aware
In the end I wished I had more surgical to play the control route against UWR and Pod. I bought drown in sorrow's after work today to replace golgari#2 and crucible.
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Dark Confidant
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Pact
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Twilight Mire
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Darkblast
1 Dismember
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Creeping Corrosion
SB: 2 Fulminator Mage
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Phyrexian Arena
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth
I placed Top 4 at a PTQ last week with this 75. List felt super tight, and I was very happy with Wildspeaker and Darkblast. Only changes I would make are cutting Obstinate Baloth for a Bow of Nylea and perhaps a Golgari Charm for a Grafdigger's Cage. I would play this list again in a heartbeat.
r1 UR delver 2-0
r2 robots (local player) 1-2
r3 burn 2-1
r4 pod (local player) 2-1
r5 rg tron 2-1
r6 wg hatebears 2-1
r7 scapeshift 2-1
T8
r1 junk 2-1
r2 gb rock 0-2
I can answer any questions you guys may have.
Out:
3x IoK
4x Thoughtseize
In:
1x Batterskull
1x Damnation
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Engineered Explosives
Game 1 we were both at 1 life and I died to my bob trigger - Through a lot of sequencing/zombie mode (No food for 8 hours) I made I believe my first misplay of the day that cost me dearly. I missed my dredge for my darkblast to kill my own bob. I may not have won that game anyway but the game would have kept going. Game 2 I took a million from Treetop with a hand full of Decay/Pulses. Game 2 I was unable to keep a threat on the board, and I think I only drew a Goyf or something. I needed a Fulminator, Tec Edge Slaughter Pact or Dismember and couldn't find them. My opponent was playing a standard Rock list without Obliterators - He may have had mainboard Thrun.
I still play 2 Maelstrom Pulse, I don't think I would ever cut them from the main.
Darkblast was one of the best spells in my deck all day, and I only sided it out against Tron, Scapeshift and Burn. Luckily it's not completely dead vs Scapeshift game 1, and if burn is running Hellspark it's still live. In all my other matchups it was an incredibly powerful card that single-handedly won me games.
Finally someone who likes the Wildspeaker. He does everything - Lets me advance my board rapidly when I've got a full grip, gives me 3/3s when that's all I want for Christmas, let's me do double Treetop swinging shenanigans when I don't have 6 land, and most importantly... He lets me close out a game brutally fast. He's one of the safest 'walkers to play due to the nature of his +1, he breaks board stalls and he lets me win turn 5-6 which no real iteration of GB/x can do. If you've played this deck a lot you will understand the limitations and see that this guy fixes a lot of problems. Good catches, tjd2191 you hit the nail right on the head.