I've been playing a UR Twin variant with ONLY Kikis pre-ban (on purpose) which IMO is actually better than the normal one ever was (can't divulge it yet, more testing needed to perfect it)
You have our attention.
He does.
Allright, here it is! I genuinely thought that I was the only one currently playing this tech, but someone pointed me to a Starcity Games deck which played it although in a more minor way. Still, I definitely thing this is the future for the deck, the synergies are just ridiculously strong.
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game. It's also excellent with Cliques as a pseudo "deal 3 damage, disrupt the opponent and check the coast is clear" instant effect if you have excess Goryo's. It's only decent with Tasigut as a suprise blocker, but it's usually ok if you do it EOT and you can even use his ability once.
Overall, I think the magic hive mind could make the deck even better, so I'm looking forward to discussion.
I've also been extensively testing the version with actual Griselbrands and I STILL don't know which one is better. This one is more streamlined, and the other one can get you clogged up on Grisels (it has many more discard outlets though) sometimes, but the thing is when you resolve a Grisel you usually always draw into the combo just by paying 7-14 life, and can discard a Kiki EOT for a next turn win with Exarch and multiple disruption spells.
I've been playing a UR Twin variant with ONLY Kikis pre-ban (on purpose) which IMO is actually better than the normal one ever was (can't divulge it yet, more testing needed to perfect it)
You have our attention.
He does.
Allright, here it is! I genuinely thought that I was the only one currently playing this tech, but someone pointed me to a Starcity Games deck which played it although in a more minor way. Still, I definitely thing this is the future for the deck, the synergies are just ridiculously strong.
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game. It's also excellent with Cliques as a pseudo "deal 3 damage, disrupt the opponent and check the coast is clear" instant effect if you have excess Goryo's. It's only decent with Tasigut as a suprise blocker, but it's usually ok if you do it EOT and you can even use his ability once.
Overall, I think the magic hive mind could make the deck even better, so I'm looking forward to discussion.
I've also been extensively testing the version with actual Griselbrands and I STILL don't know which one is better. This one is more streamlined, and the other one can get you clogged up on Grisels (it has many more discard outlets though) sometimes, but the thing is when you resolve a Grisel you usually always draw into the combo just by paying 7-14 life, and can discard a Kiki EOT for a next turn win with Exarch and multiple disruption spells.
Still have to test more. Cheers
Okay, I've got to say; right of the bat without testing this deck on my own or anything, in theory, it looks seriously incredible. Goryo's into Jace, then instant flipping is just insane value. I will definitely be testing this list out. I think what makes this better than just straight Grishoalbrand, is that it stops relying on a gimmicky, inconsistent combo, and just goes to town on value. Much like the last Birthing Pod decks having started dropped their infinite combo pieces in exchange for just straight value creatures, I think this deck doesn't care about the combo nearly as much, because value is the name of the game.
So, it isn't even a Twin deck. Seems like a worse version of the actual Grishoalbrand, but, anyway, isn't a Control deck. Twin WAS a Control, not a fast combo.
What do you mean it isn't a Twin deck? I has 4 Kiki-Jikis... you realize Splinter Twin is banned, right?? The deck plays exactly like the other, tempo-control while threatening the combo, either casting Kiki from hand or Goryosing it. Jace completes the package by providing an excellent card advantage engine with Goryos too.
I've been playing a UR Twin variant with ONLY Kikis pre-ban (on purpose) which IMO is actually better than the normal one ever was (can't divulge it yet, more testing needed to perfect it)
You have our attention.
He does.
Allright, here it is! I genuinely thought that I was the only one currently playing this tech, but someone pointed me to a Starcity Games deck which played it although in a more minor way. Still, I definitely thing this is the future for the deck, the synergies are just ridiculously strong.
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game. It's also excellent with Cliques as a pseudo "deal 3 damage, disrupt the opponent and check the coast is clear" instant effect if you have excess Goryo's. It's only decent with Tasigut as a suprise blocker, but it's usually ok if you do it EOT and you can even use his ability once.
Overall, I think the magic hive mind could make the deck even better, so I'm looking forward to discussion.
I've also been extensively testing the version with actual Griselbrands and I STILL don't know which one is better. This one is more streamlined, and the other one can get you clogged up on Grisels (it has many more discard outlets though) sometimes, but the thing is when you resolve a Grisel you usually always draw into the combo just by paying 7-14 life, and can discard a Kiki EOT for a next turn win with Exarch and multiple disruption spells.
Still have to test more. Cheers
I really want to like this deck, but I am really concerned about how vulnerable it is to graveyard hate. Does it just fold completely?
That's exactly the point of the deck, it doesn't fold to GY hate in the same way that old Twin didnt inmediately fold to extensive removal; you can keep attacking them until they have to do something, or just cast Kiki from hand. Jace is still good as a filter machine against GY hate, and Kiki doesn't care at all. The only cards that would be bad are the Goryos Veangeance themselves, but if necessary you also have many ways to discard them for better cards.
I've been playing a UR Twin variant with ONLY Kikis pre-ban (on purpose) which IMO is actually better than the normal one ever was (can't divulge it yet, more testing needed to perfect it)
You have our attention.
He does.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
I should point out that this does't work. If you do something during the end step, there is another clean-up step. You can't "bring over" Kiki into the next turn with Goryo any more than u can make the +3/+3 last one extra turn by casting Giant Growth on the end step.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've been playing a UR Twin variant with ONLY Kikis pre-ban (on purpose) which IMO is actually better than the normal one ever was (can't divulge it yet, more testing needed to perfect it)
You have our attention.
He does.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
I should point out that this does't work. If you do something during the end step, there is another clean-up step. You can't "bring over" Kiki into the next turn with Goryo any more than u can make the +3/+3 last one extra turn by casting Giant Growth on the end step.
Youre actually incorrect about this, please refer to the oracle text on Vengeance:
If you use Vengeance after the beginning of the End step, it will stick around until the beginning of the next end step. This trick is well documented and used with various cards that have similar effects. "Until the end of turn" effects are cleaned up at the end of a turn regardless of when they are cast, but Kiki, Vengeance, Flickerwisp, etc all use the "beginning of the end step" as their trigger. You can copy creatures with Kiki that will stick around for a turn, exile cards with flickerwisp that stay exiled for a whole turn, and vengeance creatures back from you GY that will stick around a whole turn using this trick.
It's been a good run, but with the B&R update now in effect, we are locking this thread down. If you want to continue the banlist discussion, please do so in the banlist thread. If you want to discuss future versions of URx Combo Control, you'll need to either create a new thread or look around the forums for exiting replacement threads.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Allright, here it is! I genuinely thought that I was the only one currently playing this tech, but someone pointed me to a Starcity Games deck which played it although in a more minor way. Still, I definitely thing this is the future for the deck, the synergies are just ridiculously strong.
Current version of UR Goryo Twin:
2 Pestermite
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Faithless Looting
2 Izzet Charm
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Thoughtseize
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Blood Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Shatterstorm
1 Teferi, Mage of Zalfir
1 Painful Truths
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Terminate
Basically it all started as a hybrid between Griselshoal and Twin, and after many, many hours of testing I realized that the true strength of the deck is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy + Goryo's Vengeance (Jace doesn't go away EOT if it flips) plus obviously Exarch/Twin + Goryos on Kiki. Its ridiculous how strong a T2 flipped Jace is, and it even lets you loop Jaces and do other disgusting stuff by flashing back Goryo's again with Jace, etc.
The deck plays like a normal Twin deck following a tempo plan and threatening the combo, which can be a typical T5 Kiki, or much earlier by Goryos-ing a Kiki.
In fact, it even has a nut draw which involves binning a Kiki with either Scour or Looting T1, Goryos-ing the Kiki at EOT of T2, and T3 on your turn cast Exarch and win. Exarch doesn't need to have haste, so you can inmediately start making copies T3 and win a turn earlier than normal Twin ever did. This is not the main plan as you can play tempo/control, but it's an option to have.
Basically, you can see Goryo's Vengeance as a value card by letting you insta-flip dead Jaces, and also as an insta-win card with Kiki (which also makes you much more resilient to discard disruption), but you don't actually need it to win, it's just that you want to draw it every game. It's also excellent with Cliques as a pseudo "deal 3 damage, disrupt the opponent and check the coast is clear" instant effect if you have excess Goryo's. It's only decent with Tasigut as a suprise blocker, but it's usually ok if you do it EOT and you can even use his ability once.
Overall, I think the magic hive mind could make the deck even better, so I'm looking forward to discussion.
I've also been extensively testing the version with actual Griselbrands and I STILL don't know which one is better. This one is more streamlined, and the other one can get you clogged up on Grisels (it has many more discard outlets though) sometimes, but the thing is when you resolve a Grisel you usually always draw into the combo just by paying 7-14 life, and can discard a Kiki EOT for a next turn win with Exarch and multiple disruption spells.
Still have to test more. Cheers
Okay, I've got to say; right of the bat without testing this deck on my own or anything, in theory, it looks seriously incredible. Goryo's into Jace, then instant flipping is just insane value. I will definitely be testing this list out. I think what makes this better than just straight Grishoalbrand, is that it stops relying on a gimmicky, inconsistent combo, and just goes to town on value. Much like the last Birthing Pod decks having started dropped their infinite combo pieces in exchange for just straight value creatures, I think this deck doesn't care about the combo nearly as much, because value is the name of the game.
What do you mean it isn't a Twin deck? I has 4 Kiki-Jikis... you realize Splinter Twin is banned, right??
I really want to like this deck, but I am really concerned about how vulnerable it is to graveyard hate. Does it just fold completely?
And just so others can see, here are some other variants of a similar strategy:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31557_Modern-Decks-For-SCG-Milwaukee.html
https://twitter.com/Gemmanite/status/653024629573992448
I should point out that this does't work. If you do something during the end step, there is another clean-up step. You can't "bring over" Kiki into the next turn with Goryo any more than u can make the +3/+3 last one extra turn by casting Giant Growth on the end step.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Youre actually incorrect about this, please refer to the oracle text on Vengeance:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goryo's vengeance
If you use Vengeance after the beginning of the End step, it will stick around until the beginning of the next end step. This trick is well documented and used with various cards that have similar effects. "Until the end of turn" effects are cleaned up at the end of a turn regardless of when they are cast, but Kiki, Vengeance, Flickerwisp, etc all use the "beginning of the end step" as their trigger. You can copy creatures with Kiki that will stick around for a turn, exile cards with flickerwisp that stay exiled for a whole turn, and vengeance creatures back from you GY that will stick around a whole turn using this trick.
It's been a good run, but with the B&R update now in effect, we are locking this thread down. If you want to continue the banlist discussion, please do so in the banlist thread. If you want to discuss future versions of URx Combo Control, you'll need to either create a new thread or look around the forums for exiting replacement threads.