@glisteneragent - It already there buhd. Its right beside abrupt decay. Both require the exact same answer, Mizzium Skin.
@Apex_Predator - Tapping out turn 3 just seems terrible in modern and thats exactly what you'd need to do to get value from this. Even though Thoughtseize is a pain, its not worth negating on turn 3... by that time its ripped your hand to shreds. By this time you can just protect your combo pieces by countering, or jamming a piece out. Sure it might get abrupt decay'd as well, but Azban isn't just scary because of either of those cards. Seems decent against burn, though... it would be a meta call in that case.
@Deahtsycthx - Thanks for the suggestions; I have started working on both sections suggested, entitled Pro Tricks and Matches. Regarding the Grixis version. Grixis has been talked in depth over the last few weeks in this thread, and I don’t mind continuing the conversation. Whether the control version, Humble Grixis (as seen by Mihara) or the land denial version (see Dickmanns list under the season 1 section) or other variants etc. Keep in mind that Grixis is unproven as of yet as according to the guidelines of the forums.
@Offline, that's great to hear. Look forward to seeing all the updates on the primer.. and thank you for helping to update the primer..
Side point: I noted a interesting decklist on MTGO that won 4-0 in the daily. It ran 2 fulminator mage in mainboard and have another 1 in sb. i guess one of the plans is to put twin on fulminator.. interesting..
might actually go well with the grixis version of twin though.. not sure how it will goes.. lol..
Just played a Moto match where I was able to draw 6 off the Defector from 2 Twiddlers. Got there!
@ Necron: There is nothing wrong with T1 Inquisition, T2 Defector, T3 Snappy into Inquisition (Unless of course you're trying to drop Tas.) The tension between proactive and reactive is exaclty what is driving whether you feel comfortable with a B Discard package. Discard is proactive. You could argue that the Defector is proactive by default due to the Your Turn Only clause. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it depends on what you're doing. Just durdling around doesn't work Reactively either.
Anyway, running grixis for Tasigur and terminate, and it's been great so far. My main problem with U/R is how lingering souls blanks all our threats game 1 one (vendillion, pestermite, snapcaster) while discard/decay makes comboing off against Abzhan too dificult. Really wanna try Dickmann's list, mostly for the mana denial package, but I can't see grim lavamancer being good in that deck... Way too much stuff eating the graveyard already.
Ireally like the interation with humble defector, where could i find the list of moto's lists?
His list wasn't made public because of poor results. In the video I mentioned they say some of the contents of the list: 4 Humble Defector, 3-4 Spellskite, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 maindeck Kiki-Jikis.
I advise you to read my previous post analyzing his deck choices and reasoning why Humble Defector is bad. I love the interaction, but it puts Twin in an awkward spot deckconstruction wise.
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Breaching Hippo is a nice tech, but I'm skeptical about it, specially in the maindeck. Maybe if your meta is full of B/G/x I guess I could see myself playing as a 2-of.
Tempo-Twin vs Lingering Souls: Electrolyze. One of the few cards that trades profitably against Lingering Souls. It is weak against Gavony Tonship + Lingering Souls, but if they are in that course of action, it's better to go for the combo finish fast. Keep in mind that since you are tempo, you don't want them to have mana advantage over you, so flashing pestermites on upkeep tapping lands and bolting dorks is the optimal line of play in this MU.
@Deathsycthx - We had been discussing the Fulimnator Twin package in the last thread as well. I believe it was in a conversation involving @iamthib "Live the dream". Regardless, seems sweet if you could protect it. My original Grixis list had 3 in the board for Azban, keeping them off colour just seems stifling for them and I had a feeling that the big BGx Boogie would rear its head in large numbers again. Would be interesting to see if they where at all in Makihito Mihara's 75. Could be interesting long the likes of Spreading Seas, Cryptic Command land bouncing and forceful tapping by Deceiver Exarch&Pestermite.
@zw31-4z1g - Though I do like the idea of the Fulminator Twin package, and have played with it... I noticed that there was just better things to do. Fulminator is weak to every piece of removal. At which point you trade removal for splinter twin and sac to kill hopefully a non-basic land... if not, theres a simple 2 for 1. Ok ok, I know its the same with Pestermite. Thing is your taping out on turn 3 to cast this? I'd have to agree that Spreading Seas is just a better card vs most decks. But lets face it, if you can protect Fulminator destroying a non-basic every turn.... ouch, could even jam seas in there to target basics.
@hittheroadjack - There was a request by the old OP for someone to takeover the care of the thread. Unfortunately, my account was too young to make the transition smooth. So we have to develop fresh. Which isn't a bad thing. Also, vs Lingering Souls; pack an Izzet Staticaster or two. Or even more Electrolyze might be needed for your meta.
Hi guys. I've been playing Grixis (I prefer to call it Rub) twin at my past few tournaments and it has served me well,just missed top 8 of my last pptq. This question is less particular to our deck than just a general question for blue decks in modern: Disdianful Stroke in the sideboard? It is the only 2 mana hard counter with no additional costs that hits a wide variety of important targets. I'm rather surprised we didn't see it in the pro tour at all. Its the only card capable of answering all of the following: Keranos, Batterskull, Splinter Twin, Cryptic Command, Scapeshift, Tasigur, Seige Rhino, Restoration Angel, all of the Titans and every relevant card in Tron decks with the exception of oblivion stone.
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tbh, the perfect answer to Siege Rhino is comboing off.
Disdainful Stroke looks good, but I wonder what it can counter that is relevant to keep off the table that Negate can't. I guess Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Anyone considered Stormbreath Dragon in the SB. Seems super strong against abzan. They have little removal outside of path and abrupt decay. Both can't touch it. It also flies right past all their souls (pro white). Kind of a silver billet in the matchup to quickly close out a game.
Hey guys so I wanted to ask how important an second Vendilion Clique would be in a list like Antonios from the PT? I only have one at the moment and basically switched to play 4 Snapcaster Mage and went to one Clique. I see the majority run 2 but I can't get another Foil one right away so I was just going to play one. Sacrilege?
Stroke isnt necessarily better than negate but can be more versatile because it can also hit creatures. Mana leak rarely gets maindeck play in twin and seems strange to include in a sideboard as you would rather your counters be cheaper (swan song, dispel) or hard and specific (negate, counterflux).
While I did list its capacity for hitting seige rhino I don't suggest bringing it in against junk as they will often board out the rhino because they don't have many safe opportunities to cast it.
I think stroke is better than leak in 3 particular matchups: Scapeshift, bloom titan, and Tron. Now the first thing you may notice is these are all already considered good matchups for us. I would argue that shift and tron become considerably more difficult games 2 and 3. Shift brings in cheaper counterspells and tron brings in half of their sideboard. I feel a lot of twin players forget how hateful tron becomes post board.
Against shift it hits the shift and their cryptics. I've liked stroke more than counterflux in this match because it is cheaper and a lot of shift players have started to bring in Swerve in anticipation of you bringing in cflux.
Against tron, (and scapeshift and bloom as well) leak can be very poor as these are big mana decks. Disdainful stroke hits every card you care about hitting vs tron. It hits karns like it hits wurmcoils (ok it doesnt hit emrakul but you're probably losing if the game gets to that point anyway). Same thing with bloom. It hits titans and it hits Hive Mind.
I don't advocate the card OVER negate, I bring both in against most decks where I would want stroke.
TL; DR: in the mirror it hits Cryptic, Twin, Batterskull AND Keranos (or wurmcoil or a Titan or whatever other big beater they bring in in place of the combo)
Against bloom it hits their Hive Mind, Traps AND their titans
Against tron it hits their walkers AND wurmcoil engine.
Against shift it hits the shift, cryptic AND plays around potential sideboard cards
Against UWR it hits every damn thing they play.
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I actually took my keranos out to test Stormbreath for a tourney tonight. Keranod has proven awful lately. While thundermaw is better vs lingering souls, I like that stormbreath dodges Path and Resto (if theyre playing it, which I've seen some do.). I bring in izzet staticaster to deal with souls.
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What are you trying to accomplish with Stormbreath Dragon? I like Thragtusk as a possible tech vs G/B/x strategies. Trades profitably with any spell they have (with the sole exception of Lingering Souls), and has applications on other MUs (Burn, I guess).
vs Tron and Bloom Titan, our main plan is to Blood Moon them. I'd rather have something that fights Seal of Primordium, Nature's Claim and Destructive Revelry. Negate and Swan Song accomplish that and also hit other pieces of their decks. Disdainful Stroke is too narrow, in my opinion. Sure, if you're not running Blood Moon, I could see you swinging that way, but I'd take the broader-aplication card any day. We are not playing a deck that cares a lot about enemy creatures.
I play grixis so I don't really have access to thragtusk and blood moon is a bit of a stretch. It can be done but doesn't seem optimal. Stormbreath avoids a lot of common removal spells, is cheaper than a titan or a wurmcoil (while dodging path) and is hasty. If the game is particularly grindy (which is usually the case when you bring in the 5+ mana alternate wincons) his Monstrous ability is relevant.
Its a mistake a lot of players make in thinking that landing a blood moon just ends tron. It only delays them. They bring in up to 4 copies of combust so they will delay us too. Eventually they can cast their walkers and wurmcoils by tapping mountains. They can also map for a forest and nature's claim the moon.
I agree that stroke is probably better in 3 color variants than UR as UR generally does not care about expensive creatures. However I have noted cases where stroke is a better answer than negate vs non creatures. I'm not saying everyone should retool their entire sideboards, I have been running 1 copy and have enjoyed it, particularly in the mirror.
In the mirror it is not quite as versitile as negate but is fine alongside of it. I have stopped liking swan song as it is only good if you are protecting the combo otherwise they get to block your cliques and mites and I prefer to see the combo as a plan b. As we all know, the mirror tends to slow down and become control v control and bigger threats and more countermagic get brought in. I played against a semi-pro at a syracuse ptq who has published numerous articles about this deck on cfb and tcgplayer, as well as earned himself a pro tour invite with it last summer (not name dropping). Stroke was fantastic game 3 when I saw after game 2 that he left his cryptic commands in alongside the batterskull he brought in. I was surprised he left CC in as I firmly believe it should always be cut in matches that are heavy on countermagic as it is simply too expensive when your opponent has Dispels and Negates (and Disdainful Stroke as it turned out). I was able to take game 3 by stroking his cryptic. I think people make the mistake of leaving in cryptic because they fear a Keranos or a Dragon. Stroke lets you cut a clunky 4 mana answer for a 2 mana one.
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What are you trying to accomplish with Stormbreath Dragon? I like Thragtusk as a possible tech vs G/B/x strategies. Trades profitably with any spell they have (with the sole exception of Lingering Souls), and has applications on other MUs (Burn, I guess).
It can hasty kill a liliana they just dropped and upticked, it can bash for 4 and the only real removal they have is 1 pulse and Lilly. It flies right past their souls. They have so much disruption that the combo really isn't the best gameplay. I'd rather bash them with batterskull and dragons.
And burn. Just counter/bolt their early play then drop that to realistic shut them down. They won't be casting two spells a turn while it's in play.
1) Is the Grixis twin version gonna be discussed inside here?
2) A couple of hate cards that should be added in aka choke , boil which are rather commonly seen in BGx sb.
3) Might be good to have a section giving a rough idea of how favorable preboard and post board against some of the commonly seen decks.
4) Perhaps a section on some of the technical plays and more intricate interactions of the decks that is not commonly seen?
@Apex_Predator - Tapping out turn 3 just seems terrible in modern and thats exactly what you'd need to do to get value from this. Even though Thoughtseize is a pain, its not worth negating on turn 3... by that time its ripped your hand to shreds. By this time you can just protect your combo pieces by countering, or jamming a piece out. Sure it might get abrupt decay'd as well, but Azban isn't just scary because of either of those cards. Seems decent against burn, though... it would be a meta call in that case.
@Deahtsycthx - Thanks for the suggestions; I have started working on both sections suggested, entitled Pro Tricks and Matches. Regarding the Grixis version. Grixis has been talked in depth over the last few weeks in this thread, and I don’t mind continuing the conversation. Whether the control version, Humble Grixis (as seen by Mihara) or the land denial version (see Dickmanns list under the season 1 section) or other variants etc. Keep in mind that Grixis is unproven as of yet as according to the guidelines of the forums.
Side point: I noted a interesting decklist on MTGO that won 4-0 in the daily. It ran 2 fulminator mage in mainboard and have another 1 in sb. i guess one of the plans is to put twin on fulminator.. interesting..
might actually go well with the grixis version of twin though.. not sure how it will goes.. lol..
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/263617#online
@ Necron: There is nothing wrong with T1 Inquisition, T2 Defector, T3 Snappy into Inquisition (Unless of course you're trying to drop Tas.) The tension between proactive and reactive is exaclty what is driving whether you feel comfortable with a B Discard package. Discard is proactive. You could argue that the Defector is proactive by default due to the Your Turn Only clause. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it depends on what you're doing. Just durdling around doesn't work Reactively either.
Anyway, running grixis for Tasigur and terminate, and it's been great so far. My main problem with U/R is how lingering souls blanks all our threats game 1 one (vendillion, pestermite, snapcaster) while discard/decay makes comboing off against Abzhan too dificult. Really wanna try Dickmann's list, mostly for the mana denial package, but I can't see grim lavamancer being good in that deck... Way too much stuff eating the graveyard already.
His list wasn't made public because of poor results. In the video I mentioned they say some of the contents of the list: 4 Humble Defector, 3-4 Spellskite, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 maindeck Kiki-Jikis.
I advise you to read my previous post analyzing his deck choices and reasoning why Humble Defector is bad. I love the interaction, but it puts Twin in an awkward spot deckconstruction wise.
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Breaching Hippo is a nice tech, but I'm skeptical about it, specially in the maindeck. Maybe if your meta is full of B/G/x I guess I could see myself playing as a 2-of.
Tempo-Twin vs Lingering Souls: Electrolyze. One of the few cards that trades profitably against Lingering Souls. It is weak against Gavony Tonship + Lingering Souls, but if they are in that course of action, it's better to go for the combo finish fast. Keep in mind that since you are tempo, you don't want them to have mana advantage over you, so flashing pestermites on upkeep tapping lands and bolting dorks is the optimal line of play in this MU.
@zw31-4z1g - Though I do like the idea of the Fulminator Twin package, and have played with it... I noticed that there was just better things to do. Fulminator is weak to every piece of removal. At which point you trade removal for splinter twin and sac to kill hopefully a non-basic land... if not, theres a simple 2 for 1. Ok ok, I know its the same with Pestermite. Thing is your taping out on turn 3 to cast this? I'd have to agree that Spreading Seas is just a better card vs most decks. But lets face it, if you can protect Fulminator destroying a non-basic every turn.... ouch, could even jam seas in there to target basics.
@hittheroadjack - There was a request by the old OP for someone to takeover the care of the thread. Unfortunately, my account was too young to make the transition smooth. So we have to develop fresh. Which isn't a bad thing. Also, vs Lingering Souls; pack an Izzet Staticaster or two. Or even more Electrolyze might be needed for your meta.
@iamthib - Breaching Hippocamp just also happens to be good against Rakdos Charm. Three power aint nothing to scoff at.
Disdainful Stroke looks good, but I wonder what it can counter that is relevant to keep off the table that Negate can't. I guess Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
While I did list its capacity for hitting seige rhino I don't suggest bringing it in against junk as they will often board out the rhino because they don't have many safe opportunities to cast it.
I think stroke is better than leak in 3 particular matchups: Scapeshift, bloom titan, and Tron. Now the first thing you may notice is these are all already considered good matchups for us. I would argue that shift and tron become considerably more difficult games 2 and 3. Shift brings in cheaper counterspells and tron brings in half of their sideboard. I feel a lot of twin players forget how hateful tron becomes post board.
Against shift it hits the shift and their cryptics. I've liked stroke more than counterflux in this match because it is cheaper and a lot of shift players have started to bring in Swerve in anticipation of you bringing in cflux.
Against tron, (and scapeshift and bloom as well) leak can be very poor as these are big mana decks. Disdainful stroke hits every card you care about hitting vs tron. It hits karns like it hits wurmcoils (ok it doesnt hit emrakul but you're probably losing if the game gets to that point anyway). Same thing with bloom. It hits titans and it hits Hive Mind.
I don't advocate the card OVER negate, I bring both in against most decks where I would want stroke.
TL; DR: in the mirror it hits Cryptic, Twin, Batterskull AND Keranos (or wurmcoil or a Titan or whatever other big beater they bring in in place of the combo)
Against bloom it hits their Hive Mind, Traps AND their titans
Against tron it hits their walkers AND wurmcoil engine.
Against shift it hits the shift, cryptic AND plays around potential sideboard cards
Against UWR it hits every damn thing they play.
vs Tron and Bloom Titan, our main plan is to Blood Moon them. I'd rather have something that fights Seal of Primordium, Nature's Claim and Destructive Revelry. Negate and Swan Song accomplish that and also hit other pieces of their decks. Disdainful Stroke is too narrow, in my opinion. Sure, if you're not running Blood Moon, I could see you swinging that way, but I'd take the broader-aplication card any day. We are not playing a deck that cares a lot about enemy creatures.
Its a mistake a lot of players make in thinking that landing a blood moon just ends tron. It only delays them. They bring in up to 4 copies of combust so they will delay us too. Eventually they can cast their walkers and wurmcoils by tapping mountains. They can also map for a forest and nature's claim the moon.
I agree that stroke is probably better in 3 color variants than UR as UR generally does not care about expensive creatures. However I have noted cases where stroke is a better answer than negate vs non creatures. I'm not saying everyone should retool their entire sideboards, I have been running 1 copy and have enjoyed it, particularly in the mirror.
In the mirror it is not quite as versitile as negate but is fine alongside of it. I have stopped liking swan song as it is only good if you are protecting the combo otherwise they get to block your cliques and mites and I prefer to see the combo as a plan b. As we all know, the mirror tends to slow down and become control v control and bigger threats and more countermagic get brought in. I played against a semi-pro at a syracuse ptq who has published numerous articles about this deck on cfb and tcgplayer, as well as earned himself a pro tour invite with it last summer (not name dropping). Stroke was fantastic game 3 when I saw after game 2 that he left his cryptic commands in alongside the batterskull he brought in. I was surprised he left CC in as I firmly believe it should always be cut in matches that are heavy on countermagic as it is simply too expensive when your opponent has Dispels and Negates (and Disdainful Stroke as it turned out). I was able to take game 3 by stroking his cryptic. I think people make the mistake of leaving in cryptic because they fear a Keranos or a Dragon. Stroke lets you cut a clunky 4 mana answer for a 2 mana one.
It can hasty kill a liliana they just dropped and upticked, it can bash for 4 and the only real removal they have is 1 pulse and Lilly. It flies right past their souls. They have so much disruption that the combo really isn't the best gameplay. I'd rather bash them with batterskull and dragons.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR