Hi first post here. Here is my take on the Suicide Shadow.
Short story: I've been playing around with Rite of Consumption + Dying Wish and green pump spells - it basically looks like infect without infect. I turned the deck into B/R/G from U/B/G in hopes of making the deck faster and then it hit me: Death's Shadow works way better as a late game option, rather than as a goal. (I had never included Death's Shadow in my deck up to this point, I didn't think it worked as a viable early game win-con.) In addition, Temur Battle Rage showed promise for my ground game as well as getting that swing out before I Rite'd. I then saw Blistercoil and Kiln Fiend after coming to these forums, so I completely replaced my creatures (I had been using Perilous Myr and Death Cultist in conjunction with Wild Defiance) and then added Death's Shadow, and took out Dying Wish (for now) and a few of the pumps in favor of phyrexian mana cards. Undying Evil is my cheap anti-removal card.
I think it's a great start. I don't really have anything picked for the sideboard those are all just ideas (on a budget so no Thoughtseize, although I could probably include a couple Inquisition of Kozilek), however I was wondering what you guys thought about Slippery Bogle and Gladecover Scout as possible sideboard against Abrupt Decay. I see Blistercoil as replaceable, and I'm of course drawn to Dying Wish but I really think it needs something to go along with it first.
Again I'm not so sure how I feel about flattening the damage curve (as I liked the giant spikes from pumping) but it plays consistently so far. I think the Blistercoils could probably be swapped for a utility one-drop, like Gladecover Scout or Slippery Bogle, or even a mana dork or card with deathtouch. I decided Temur Battle Rage is nice but needs variety, and one or two could even be taken out in favor of Ragged Veins. Also the budget version of this deck works pretty well if you swap out the land base.
I just starting testing this deck online and I'm having tons of fun. I still need to play it more before I can even ask meaningful questions. Right now I am still trying to figure out how to sideboard for what matchups. I never seem to want to take anything out. People really don't see this deck coming. I often swing with a 3/3 Wild Nacatl or 4/5 Steppe Lynx and my opponent decides not to block. Become immense and Temur battle rage turn me into a 9/9 or 10/11 double striker. I love it! One question I did come up with, is Tasigur, the Golden Fang not better than Hooting Mandrills? Is it just because the 1 toughness is mostly insignificant and one card costs a few pennies and the other is 7 bucks, or is it the G vs B. I feel we pretty much have a green and black source t2 or t3.
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Again I'm not so sure how I feel about flattening the damage curve (as I liked the giant spikes from pumping) but it plays consistently so far. I think the Blistercoils could probably be swapped for a utility one-drop, like Gladecover Scout or Slippery Bogle, or even a mana dork or card with deathtouch. I decided Temur Battle Rage is nice but needs variety, and one or two could even be taken out in favor of Ragged Veins. Also the budget version of this deck works pretty well if you swap out the land base.
Honestly I'm not quite sure what to make of your list. Have you tested it? In terms of creature base, I don't really like Kiln Fiend. To play it on turn 2 is a bit slow for the deck. You would also need to hold back some draw spells to pump him up. That also goes for Monastery Swiftspear/Bittercoil. From my own testing, we don't play non creature spells every turn. I've usually been trying to draw into a Death's Shadow as fast as I can as that's really what's going to help you win the game. I also think there is a lack of draw spells, but it looks like your goal is to pump up a Kiln Fiend / Swiftspear and then Fling it or Rite of Consumption etc etc? It seems like a prolonged game plan from the other lists here. You don't do enough damage to yourself to make Death Shadow a big threat. It feels like more of a midrangey deck but you need to be very careful of removal and counters because by turn 3 - 5 your opponent is going to be ready to slow you down. Also not a big fan of the Bogles creatures due to a lack of pump spells you have for them. I feel like I understand what you're trying to do but it isn't a suicide zoo deck. Suicide Zoo has a very specific goal in mind - pay all your life for an early game board state. Draw to a Death Shadow. Use all the graveyard cards to take advantage of the delve mechanics then Become Immense, Temur Battle Rage; GG. I hope that helps! I'm not sure what resources are available to you but I would proxy up one of the lists on the OP. I think you need to play a lot of games to begin to pilot it correctly. By no means is it the hardest deck to play, it's sequencing is just rather unique.
I just starting testing this deck online and I'm having tons of fun. I still need to play it more before I can even ask meaningful questions. Right now I am still trying to figure out how to sideboard for what matchups. I never seem to want to take anything out. People really don't see this deck coming. I often swing with a 3/3 Wild Nacatl or 4/5 Steppe Lynx and my opponent decides not to block. Become immense and Temur battle rage turn me into a 9/9 or 10/11 double striker. I love it! One question I did come up with, is Tasigur, the Golden Fang not better than Hooting Mandrills? Is it just because the 1 toughness is mostly insignificant and one card costs a few pennies and the other is 7 bucks, or is it the G vs B. I feel we pretty much have a green and black source t2 or t3.
Sideboarding is one of the toughest things for me when playing this deck. I know personally I need to have some concrete idea about what goes in and out in each matchup I just haven't found an efficient sideboard that works yet. Things that I notice so far, we need non-life gain hate against the aggro decks (burn, affinity) and discard for anything that runs blue and something to deal with opponent Tarmogoyfs due to how well our graveyard helps them out.
I debated on Tasigur back and forth but daviusminimus nailed it. The trample is just too relevant on mandrills. You don't want to get stalled out with chump blockers until they build a board state. The 1 toughness would be good especially with all the rhinos around, but we're usually well ahead before a rhino is coming into play - at least in my opinion. I don't think Tasigur is a bad choice. A good case could be made for him, but I'm pretty set on my mandrills for now.
just to add to what josh said - I think the toughness might be relevant on tasigur, but gurmag angler would actually be the better card in this deck in my opinion. you just don't want to spend turn 4 activating tasigur and turn 5 casting whatever Mishra's bauble they put back in your hand. I did test angler, and mandrills was just better. Just an added bonus that it's cheapppp!
Off to an event tonight, unfortunately without manamorphose. Hopefully will get to borrow them, but if not, i'll post whatever list I end up running!
I really want to test faith's shield and vines of vastwood, but unfortunately I can't get hold of them. They act as protection vs decay effects, but also double up to stop burn (shield) and infect/twin (vines). I'm going to run postmortum tonight though, as they do act in a similar way when dodging abrupt decay effects, as well as liliana.
I'm running 4 pieces of creature kill and 4 discard in the board. I'll also run 3-4 artefact/enchantment hate for affinity, spellskite, twin and blood moon (think I'm going with 2 nature's claim, 1 wear//tear and questionably a forest to help with moon). That leaves about 2 spaces for protection (e.g. 1 vines + 1 faith's for my list).
What's the case against Immolating Souleater? At first glance, it looks like a perfect fit. I think I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is.
What do you guys think of crimson wisps? It replaces itself as well as grants haste. I find there are a lot of games that I'd probably win if my death's shadow could swing in on the turn they come out. I get that as a trade off we might not have the mana to cast this, temur battle rage and become immense but many times, not all of them are needed. Especially if we have a mutagenic growth.
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What do you guys think of crimson wisps? It replaces itself as well as grants haste. I find there are a lot of games that I'd probably win if my death's shadow could swing in on the turn they come out. I get that as a trade off we might not have the mana to cast this, temur battle rage and become immense but many times, not all of them are needed. Especially if we have a mutagenic growth.
I could see it working but it has a very specific purpose. In the most ideal case, Death Shadow is in your opening hand and you cast him at around 12-9 life. I don't see it's necessary to give that being haste, that being said, sometimes the manamorphose mana goes to waste so it would be nice to at least draw off it again.
Morning all,
I have a brief match report from last night - though I don't take notes and I got a bye, so only played 3 rounds. Spoiler alert - I went 1-1-1 on the 3 that I played! My list lacked manamorphose, so had 2 bolts and 2 thoughtseize in the main instead. If you want a summary of the cards, skip to the bottom.
Round 1 vs Jund (yes Jund)!
So this was quite tough. I couldn't fight through the bolts/decays/terminates, and seemed to just be 1 turn away at all times. I was on the play, but just never got going. In game 2, I managed to postmortum lunge a death's shadow, mutagenic it and then bolt the guy down to 1... it was a last gasp effort and lost.
Round 2 (the bye)
Round 3 vs Scapeshift
2 quick-ish hands. Game 2 I had a lot of creatures, but didn't want to over-commit, because I didn't know the guys sideboard. A few sakura tribe elders got the way, but I got across the line eventually. It was a case of taking them off key spells, and just beating down before they got to 8. In the final game, I had to topdeck either a land (to get 2 landfall triggers on 2 lynx) or a become immense, or I had lost. I knew the opponent had scapeshift in hand, and nothing else, but also had 6 land and STE. I topped the immense
Round 4 vs BUG Control
This guy was just playing a fairly standard control deck, with abrupt decay, snapcaster and some counter magic. It was a tough battle, but game 1 I just flooded out completely. At 1 stage, I had 3 shocks in play plus the dryad arbor (naturally drawn), plus 2 windswept heath in hand with only blood crypt left in the deck. I continued to draw the 2 marsh flats and lost.
G2 was a lot closer, but basically, I had an element of surprise still. I didn't see sideboard cards, just beat down and a thoughtseize on a snapcaster!
G3 - we went to time, and I had survived his 4th turn, but looked like I wasn't able to win either. He had won next turn. I did have a death's shadow, which I swung in, but he blocked. Had I topdecked a temur battle rage, I woulda won the game.
At our local store, rounds are only 40mins, and so in any other tournament, I would have lost that final round.
Summary:
DRYAD ARBOR SUCKED - I know people have been interested in this guy, it just sucked. I loved it 2 weeks ago, hate it now haha. He's coming out. I'm actually quite comfortable running 16 lands with all the draw we have, so I'm just dropping the arbor and not replacing it with more land.
Postmortum Lunge feels better than faith's shield etc. I have yet to face burn, but the lunge just gives you another topdeck that can be good. Faith's shield on an empty board sucks! I'm going to tweak my sideboard to reflect this.
Sideboarding - I trimmed some numbers of become immense or temur battle rage in some of the grindier games, but for me, that's a mistake. I found myself saying "you need 1 of those cards now" all too often. I won't be doing that again.
Also - be careful not to board out too many draw spells - these allow you to run less creatures and less lands, so we need them.
On Crimson Wisp - that sounds pretty sweet. I'd test it, but my next gaming session is a PPTQ. If you try it, let me know how it works. Seems pretty good to me though, single red doesn't feel particularly tough to deal with!
Thanks for a mini report. Jund would be a tough matchup since we don't run a lot of creatures and they usually have a decent amount of removal. Also I think BUG control is a good matchup for us. Don't have a lot of experience but I think it might have been bad luck .
I trimmed some numbers of become immense or temur battle rage in some of the grindier games, but for me, that's a mistake. I found myself saying "you need 1 of those cards now" all too often. I won't be doing that again.
Couldn't say that better myself!!! Happens very frequently. Gets better through practice.
With Arid Mesa in place of Marsh Flats, from my Naya Zoo days.
I played against
RD1 B/W Tokens 2-0
Sided in 2 Pact of Negation and 2 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD2 R/G Tron 2-1
Sided in 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD3 Abzan 2-1
Sided in 3 Hooting Mandrills, 2 Pact of Negation for 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 Become Immense
RD4 Abzan 2-0
Sided the same
So Lightning Bolt went out literally every match. I wanted to play with Manamorphose in its place but, first of all, it's so awkward when it gets countered, and secondly, my pride wouldn't let me. Playing Manamorphose over Lightning Bolt feels more gimmicky.
Sorry guys been really busy with school/exams and stuff so I haven't been playing or testing much but it's nice to see people are still trying this in a competitive setting.
Hey All,
So, I went to a 5 round PPTQ ...
Anyone have any more thoughts. clearly I'm not running as well as some of you guys, who are posting much more positive results! Help always appreciated!
Your list looks fine to me. I mean I have been slandering Swiftspear for quite awhile but it's clear I need to test her out. Also Postmortem Lunge definitely looks interesting especially with all the 1 drops in the deck, especially if you zap 2 life and pull a DS with haste.
I do agree that it's very easy to over SB with this deck and it could really mess with your game plan because with how explosive this deck is as you often just want to keep playing the same way. I would say the exception being burn or affinity where you want to be a little more conservative with your life total. Just keep playing the deck and working on it is my only advice. Great report :)!
With Arid Mesa in place of Marsh Flats, from my Naya Zoo days.
I played against
RD1 B/W Tokens 2-0
Sided in 2 Pact of Negation and 2 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD2 R/G Tron 2-1
Sided in 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD3 Abzan 2-1
Sided in 3 Hooting Mandrills, 2 Pact of Negation for 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 Become Immense
RD4 Abzan 2-0
Sided the same
So Lightning Bolt went out literally every match. I wanted to play with Manamorphose in its place but, first of all, it's so awkward when it gets countered, and secondly, my pride wouldn't let me. Playing Manamorphose over Lightning Bolt feels more gimmicky.
CONGRATS! That's awesome! It really looks like I got to try out Swiftspear. I fear I'm going to eat my own words. Manamorphose is funny. I mean I often cast it when there's something else in my hand I want to cast or something I might draw but often use it at sorcery speed incase I draw a creature and have to guess if it will be DS , Lynx, or Nacatl and a lot of the time it's neither. I just see it as a free draw spell at this point. Have any thoughts on what you would put in over Bolt as you seem to be siding it out a lot?
that last slot regarding manamorphose vs bolt vs everything else in MTG is really tough. It's made me so unconfident with the deck. I hate playing decks that feel incomplete, and that last slot of 4 cards just feels wrong, whatever I play! I wish there was an answer!
I did struggle last time i played this, but it got some really fast wins. It seems possible to win a lot of games with the deck, and I think i'd play it more if i was happy with cards 57-60! Need help!
Is there any tips you'd give me on sideboarding? Whats the pact of negation doing, just forcing through the last attack??
I agree I just played a couple games with the Bolt. I guess it has it's place and you can bolt yourself for some interactions with DS like double strike or dodge an opponent bolt but I'm still uneasy about it.
I won't comment much on sideboarding because I'm quite terrible at it. But yeah pact of negation is to get rid of that counter spell that will prevent you from getting your turn 3 kills. Pretty solid choice of sideboard card. I think it would help a lot with the consistency of quick kills in the right matchups.
Well... let me tell you: I beat an Elf deck thanks to Nourishing Shoal just now at a GPT... He was at 26 life, had me at one and I had two Death's Shadows in play with Hooting Mandrills, Become Immense and two Temur Battle Rages in hand... He had 5-6 elves, one or two lords, in two turns I won the game, because of the life gain and managed to save one Death's Shadow for the win...
Nourishing Shoal is the real deal
EDIT: few more things to note:
- Ran 4 Thoughtseizes mainboard instead of the bolts... tons of Twin / Scapeshift in my area
- I want to try Crimson Wisps in place of the Lightning Bolts as these haste our Death's Shadows / Hooting Mandrills and give us card
- I did not see one Swiftspear in 5 rounds (was running 2)
Congrats to @drinkard on the 4-0! I think I like your list a lot. I also agree that the 4 lightning bolts are a bit awkward. I don't like that card much in the deck. I have been trying to play your list with other options. Crimson wisp felt good at times while at other times I was using it as "R: Draw a card" which makes it just really bad. I still think some number of them either main or sideboard is okay, but 4 main is a no vote from me. Possibly a 2-2 split between wisp and Thoughtseize. Or maybe a split with Postmortem Lunge. Also, when are you guys boarding in the extra Hooting Mandrills and what are you boarding out?
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Well... let me tell you: I beat an Elf deck thanks to Nourishing Shoal just now at a GPT... He was at 26 life, had me at one and I had two Death's Shadows in play with Hooting Mandrills, Become Immense and two Temur Battle Rages in hand... He had 5-6 elves, one or two lords, in two turns I won the game, because of the life gain and managed to save one Death's Shadow for the win...
Nourishing Shoal is the real deal
EDIT: few more things to note:
- Ran 4 Thoughtseizes mainboard instead of the bolts... tons of Twin / Scapeshift in my area
- I want to try Crimson Wisps in place of the Lightning Bolts as these haste our Death's Shadows / Hooting Mandrills and give us card
- I did not see one Swiftspear in 5 rounds (was running 2)
Congrats to @drinkard on the 4-0! I think I like your list a lot. I also agree that the 4 lightning bolts are a bit awkward. I don't like that card much in the deck. I have been trying to play your list with other options. Crimson wisp felt good at times while at other times I was using it as "R: Draw a card" which makes it just really bad. I still think some number of them either main or sideboard is okay, but 4 main is a no vote from me. Possibly a 2-2 split between wisp and Thoughtseize. Or maybe a split with Postmortem Lunge. Also, when are you guys boarding in the extra Hooting Mandrills and what are you boarding out?
Ohhh I like the look of crimson wisp! That definitely helps us align with our game plan. I'm going to try a 2-2 split with lunge this week. Don't know how much practice I'll get it but I'll test it online when I do play
Alright fellow thrill seekers, this list has only lost one match today in Tourney Training (11 games so far) I will try it on 8-mans and dailies this coming week:
While testing with friends, I got Blood Mooned and took a pretty hard beating. Tried replacing lands for basics but felt this slowed life loss a bit and also left me wanting a different color (i.e. Swamp vs Godless Shrine). Lotus Bloom circumvents the potential mooning and also gives 3 of any mana on turn 3 (when we would ideally like to go off). I feel this makes one landers more keepable and also enables further degeneration
Give it a go and let me know your thoughts! I'll update with a report after Dailies sometime this week.
PS: ran 3 Wisps + 3 Blooms, keep on getting more Blooms than I could use so dropped it to two for an extra haste / card drawer.
Alright fellow thrill seekers, this list has only lost one match today in Tourney Training (11 games so far) I will try it on 8-mans and dailies this coming week:
While testing with friends, I got Blood Mooned and took a pretty hard beating. Tried replacing lands for basics but felt this slowed life loss a bit and also left me wanting a different color (i.e. Swamp vs Godless Shrine). Lotus Bloom circumvents the potential mooning and also gives 3 of any mana on turn 3 (when we would ideally like to go off). I feel this makes one landers more keepable and also enables further degeneration
Give it a go and let me know your thoughts! I'll update with a report after Dailies sometime this week.
PS: ran 3 Wisps + 3 Blooms, keep on getting more Blooms than I could use so dropped it to two for an extra haste / card drawer.
I got hit by blood moon and it's basically game over for us. I like it as an answer. It's a free swiftspear trigger when it resolves too, but I see you don't run any. The downside is after turn two it's almost a dead draw. Are you using leyline more against burn or discard or both? I really feel like nailing down the sideboard cards and how to play them vs. different decks is going to be the key to this deck's competitive success. If you have time please let us know how you use your sideboard as it's a little different from the rest.
I need to bite the bullet and buy this deck on MTGO. I just put it together on paper but can only play once a week in tournaments. I guess if I sub the thoughtseize for duress or inquisition of kozilek it'll be a bit cheaper.
SIDEBOARD Leyline of Sanctity is for Burn and Scapeshift mainly... I wanna be in control of my life loss Thoughtseize is for Twin and Combos... works wonders with Probes and Baubles to keep them off their combo pieces. Nourishing Shoal is for anything aggressive and I save it to the last moment usually.
The Hooting Mandrills come in whenever facing creature heavy decks... Ancient Grudge + Ray of Revelation are there for Chalice, Spellskite, Blood Moon, that nasty green enchantment infect uses, etc. (I have yet to use either)
REPLACEMENTS
I used to run Inquisitions online, like Thoughtseize better because of the life loss. Similarly, used to run Phyrexian Unlife instead of Leylines... they both work just fine. In my opinion, Nourishing Shoal is the must-have card in the 'board. I've goaded opponents a few times now where they think they have me beat, attack with everything (while my creatures are tapped) and BOOM life gain before damage, swing for the kill next turn.
SIDEBOARD Leyline of Sanctity is for Burn and Scapeshift mainly... I wanna be in control of my life loss Thoughtseize is for Twin and Combos... works wonders with Probes and Baubles to keep them off their combo pieces. Nourishing Shoal is for anything aggressive and I save it to the last moment usually.
The Hooting Mandrills come in whenever facing creature heavy decks... Ancient Grudge + Ray of Revelation are there for Chalice, Spellskite, Blood Moon, that nasty green enchantment infect uses, etc. (I have yet to use either)
REPLACEMENTS
I used to run Inquisitions online, like Thoughtseize better because of the life loss. Similarly, used to run Phyrexian Unlife instead of Leylines... they both work just fine. In my opinion, Nourishing Shoal is the must-have card in the 'board. I've goaded opponents a few times now where they think they have me beat, attack with everything (while my creatures are tapped) and BOOM life gain before damage, swing for the kill next turn.
Thanks for that. I ended up putting the deck together on MTGO to begin quality testing. Playing on cockatrice just doesn't cut it. Fortunately I didn't spend a dime. Some of my Theros standard cards still had big value (28 tix for a playset of temple of epiphanys. Who knew?) I can't wait to take this to FNM as well!
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This discussion is getting lots of traffic and a considerable number of MTGO finishes. The list has also appeared in a few articles on other sites, which suggests that the Modern community is taking notice of Death's Shadow's potential. To make sure that the community keeps up the awesome deck development and notices this thread, we are stickying it in Deck Creation.
It looks like I'm going to have to snipe another big daily event to get the list to publish. No results posted over the holiday weekend. Alas.
RE: Lotus Bloom I have the same problem with this as I have with Leyline of Sanctity. Even on a turn 4-and-before deck, you are more likely to see a card in your library than in your opening hand. Bloom has three strikes against it: 1) We are aiming to win on turn 3 in a statistically significant number of games. 2) It is a terrible topdeck. Whenever it is drawn, it is not active for three more turns, by which point the opponent has stabilized or won. 3) Blood Moon decks tend to pack a lot of removal, meaning expending more resources into making a lot of creatures larger leads to blowouts, or counters, which make Lotus Bloom garbage.
If you need access to more mana and want something relevant in the burn matchup (where you may be able to win on turn 2 with three mana available), try a full set of Simian Spirit Guide and Manamorphose.
The good news is that Blood Moon isn't as bad as some discussing it in this thread make it out to be. If it gets down before a Death's Shadow or Hooting Mandrills make it down, it can be troublesome, but that is so unlikely. Otherwise you can still resolve Mutagenic Growths and Temur Battle Rage.
I play every creature in the 75 against Abzan, which lets us go wide against Liliana and their infinite removal. We really want two creatures in play on turn three in spite of Path, Abrupt Decay, and Thoughtseize. The Hooting Mandrils come in then and any time Nourishing Shoal comes in. I like PTPaul's list using the four flex slots (Lightning Bolt) on creatures, even if I can't play Tarmogoyf there right now. This gives us an edge in game one of discard and heavy-spot removal decks.
I do not recommend Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize. It is relevant in the burn matchup but a liability against Amulet Bloom and various iterations of Tron.
Pact of Negation is a temporary sideboard card and can never be a permanent staple. I bring it in against decks with 4 Path because opponents are greedy and play for the 2-for-1. Pact answers that now, but it won't forever. Faith's Shield, Vines of Vastwood, and Apostle's Blessing will be useful rotation pieces with the Pacts.
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Short story: I've been playing around with Rite of Consumption + Dying Wish and green pump spells - it basically looks like infect without infect. I turned the deck into B/R/G from U/B/G in hopes of making the deck faster and then it hit me: Death's Shadow works way better as a late game option, rather than as a goal. (I had never included Death's Shadow in my deck up to this point, I didn't think it worked as a viable early game win-con.) In addition, Temur Battle Rage showed promise for my ground game as well as getting that swing out before I Rite'd. I then saw Blistercoil and Kiln Fiend after coming to these forums, so I completely replaced my creatures (I had been using Perilous Myr and Death Cultist in conjunction with Wild Defiance) and then added Death's Shadow, and took out Dying Wish (for now) and a few of the pumps in favor of phyrexian mana cards. Undying Evil is my cheap anti-removal card.
4 Blistercoil Weird
4 Death's Shadow
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Instants
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Become Immense
4 Mutagenic Growth
1 Fatal Frenzy
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Undying Evil
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Consumption
Land
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
2 Nature's Claim
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Distress
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Killing Wave
2 Bile Blight
1 Imp's Mischief
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
1 Tormented Thoughts
2 Rift Bolt
2 Bone Splinters
2 Pendelhaven
2 Wild Slash
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Dying Wish
4 Collateral Damage
2 Vines of Vastwood
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Frenzy
I think it's a great start. I don't really have anything picked for the sideboard those are all just ideas (on a budget so no Thoughtseize, although I could probably include a couple Inquisition of Kozilek), however I was wondering what you guys thought about Slippery Bogle and Gladecover Scout as possible sideboard against Abrupt Decay. I see Blistercoil as replaceable, and I'm of course drawn to Dying Wish but I really think it needs something to go along with it first.
-1 Blistercoil Weird
-2 Become Immense
-1 Fatal Frenzy
+2 Ragged Veins
+3 Fling
Possibly -2 Temur Battle Rage in favor of keeping Become Immense
Again I'm not so sure how I feel about flattening the damage curve (as I liked the giant spikes from pumping) but it plays consistently so far. I think the Blistercoils could probably be swapped for a utility one-drop, like Gladecover Scout or Slippery Bogle, or even a mana dork or card with deathtouch. I decided Temur Battle Rage is nice but needs variety, and one or two could even be taken out in favor of Ragged Veins. Also the budget version of this deck works pretty well if you swap out the land base.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
Honestly I'm not quite sure what to make of your list. Have you tested it? In terms of creature base, I don't really like Kiln Fiend. To play it on turn 2 is a bit slow for the deck. You would also need to hold back some draw spells to pump him up. That also goes for Monastery Swiftspear/Bittercoil. From my own testing, we don't play non creature spells every turn. I've usually been trying to draw into a Death's Shadow as fast as I can as that's really what's going to help you win the game. I also think there is a lack of draw spells, but it looks like your goal is to pump up a Kiln Fiend / Swiftspear and then Fling it or Rite of Consumption etc etc? It seems like a prolonged game plan from the other lists here. You don't do enough damage to yourself to make Death Shadow a big threat. It feels like more of a midrangey deck but you need to be very careful of removal and counters because by turn 3 - 5 your opponent is going to be ready to slow you down. Also not a big fan of the Bogles creatures due to a lack of pump spells you have for them. I feel like I understand what you're trying to do but it isn't a suicide zoo deck. Suicide Zoo has a very specific goal in mind - pay all your life for an early game board state. Draw to a Death Shadow. Use all the graveyard cards to take advantage of the delve mechanics then Become Immense, Temur Battle Rage; GG. I hope that helps! I'm not sure what resources are available to you but I would proxy up one of the lists on the OP. I think you need to play a lot of games to begin to pilot it correctly. By no means is it the hardest deck to play, it's sequencing is just rather unique.
Sideboarding is one of the toughest things for me when playing this deck. I know personally I need to have some concrete idea about what goes in and out in each matchup I just haven't found an efficient sideboard that works yet. Things that I notice so far, we need non-life gain hate against the aggro decks (burn, affinity) and discard for anything that runs blue and something to deal with opponent Tarmogoyfs due to how well our graveyard helps them out.
I debated on Tasigur back and forth but daviusminimus nailed it. The trample is just too relevant on mandrills. You don't want to get stalled out with chump blockers until they build a board state. The 1 toughness would be good especially with all the rhinos around, but we're usually well ahead before a rhino is coming into play - at least in my opinion. I don't think Tasigur is a bad choice. A good case could be made for him, but I'm pretty set on my mandrills for now.
Good luck. Looking forward to a report.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
I could see it working but it has a very specific purpose. In the most ideal case, Death Shadow is in your opening hand and you cast him at around 12-9 life. I don't see it's necessary to give that being haste, that being said, sometimes the manamorphose mana goes to waste so it would be nice to at least draw off it again.
Thanks for a mini report. Jund would be a tough matchup since we don't run a lot of creatures and they usually have a decent amount of removal. Also I think BUG control is a good matchup for us. Don't have a lot of experience but I think it might have been bad luck .
Couldn't say that better myself!!! Happens very frequently. Gets better through practice.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-suicide-zoo-18144#online
With Arid Mesa in place of Marsh Flats, from my Naya Zoo days.
I played against
RD1 B/W Tokens 2-0
Sided in 2 Pact of Negation and 2 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD2 R/G Tron 2-1
Sided in 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Lightning Bolt
RD3 Abzan 2-1
Sided in 3 Hooting Mandrills, 2 Pact of Negation for 4 Lightning Bolt, 1 Become Immense
RD4 Abzan 2-0
Sided the same
So Lightning Bolt went out literally every match. I wanted to play with Manamorphose in its place but, first of all, it's so awkward when it gets countered, and secondly, my pride wouldn't let me. Playing Manamorphose over Lightning Bolt feels more gimmicky.
Your list looks fine to me. I mean I have been slandering Swiftspear for quite awhile but it's clear I need to test her out. Also Postmortem Lunge definitely looks interesting especially with all the 1 drops in the deck, especially if you zap 2 life and pull a DS with haste.
I do agree that it's very easy to over SB with this deck and it could really mess with your game plan because with how explosive this deck is as you often just want to keep playing the same way. I would say the exception being burn or affinity where you want to be a little more conservative with your life total. Just keep playing the deck and working on it is my only advice. Great report :)!
CONGRATS! That's awesome! It really looks like I got to try out Swiftspear. I fear I'm going to eat my own words. Manamorphose is funny. I mean I often cast it when there's something else in my hand I want to cast or something I might draw but often use it at sorcery speed incase I draw a creature and have to guess if it will be DS , Lynx, or Nacatl and a lot of the time it's neither. I just see it as a free draw spell at this point. Have any thoughts on what you would put in over Bolt as you seem to be siding it out a lot?
I agree I just played a couple games with the Bolt. I guess it has it's place and you can bolt yourself for some interactions with DS like double strike or dodge an opponent bolt but I'm still uneasy about it.
I won't comment much on sideboarding because I'm quite terrible at it. But yeah pact of negation is to get rid of that counter spell that will prevent you from getting your turn 3 kills. Pretty solid choice of sideboard card. I think it would help a lot with the consistency of quick kills in the right matchups.
Nourishing Shoal is the real deal
EDIT: few more things to note:
- Ran 4 Thoughtseizes mainboard instead of the bolts... tons of Twin / Scapeshift in my area
- I want to try Crimson Wisps in place of the Lightning Bolts as these haste our Death's Shadows / Hooting Mandrills and give us card
- I did not see one Swiftspear in 5 rounds (was running 2)
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
Ohhh I like the look of crimson wisp! That definitely helps us align with our game plan. I'm going to try a 2-2 split with lunge this week. Don't know how much practice I'll get it but I'll test it online when I do play
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Forest
BEATERS
4 Death's Shadow
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Hooting Mandrills
4 Become Immense
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Crimson Wisps
DRAWERS
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
MANA
2 Lotus Bloom
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Hooting Mandrills
While testing with friends, I got Blood Mooned and took a pretty hard beating. Tried replacing lands for basics but felt this slowed life loss a bit and also left me wanting a different color (i.e. Swamp vs Godless Shrine). Lotus Bloom circumvents the potential mooning and also gives 3 of any mana on turn 3 (when we would ideally like to go off). I feel this makes one landers more keepable and also enables further degeneration
Give it a go and let me know your thoughts! I'll update with a report after Dailies sometime this week.
PS: ran 3 Wisps + 3 Blooms, keep on getting more Blooms than I could use so dropped it to two for an extra haste / card drawer.
I need to bite the bullet and buy this deck on MTGO. I just put it together on paper but can only play once a week in tournaments. I guess if I sub the thoughtseize for duress or inquisition of kozilek it'll be a bit cheaper.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
SIDEBOARD
Leyline of Sanctity is for Burn and Scapeshift mainly... I wanna be in control of my life loss
Thoughtseize is for Twin and Combos... works wonders with Probes and Baubles to keep them off their combo pieces.
Nourishing Shoal is for anything aggressive and I save it to the last moment usually.
The Hooting Mandrills come in whenever facing creature heavy decks...
Ancient Grudge + Ray of Revelation are there for Chalice, Spellskite, Blood Moon, that nasty green enchantment infect uses, etc. (I have yet to use either)
REPLACEMENTS
I used to run Inquisitions online, like Thoughtseize better because of the life loss. Similarly, used to run Phyrexian Unlife instead of Leylines... they both work just fine. In my opinion, Nourishing Shoal is the must-have card in the 'board. I've goaded opponents a few times now where they think they have me beat, attack with everything (while my creatures are tapped) and BOOM life gain before damage, swing for the kill next turn.
UBWAd NauseamWBU
URStormRU
EDH:
BMikaeus the UnhallowedB
RWAurelia, the WarleaderWR
This discussion is getting lots of traffic and a considerable number of MTGO finishes. The list has also appeared in a few articles on other sites, which suggests that the Modern community is taking notice of Death's Shadow's potential. To make sure that the community keeps up the awesome deck development and notices this thread, we are stickying it in Deck Creation.
RE: Lotus Bloom I have the same problem with this as I have with Leyline of Sanctity. Even on a turn 4-and-before deck, you are more likely to see a card in your library than in your opening hand. Bloom has three strikes against it: 1) We are aiming to win on turn 3 in a statistically significant number of games. 2) It is a terrible topdeck. Whenever it is drawn, it is not active for three more turns, by which point the opponent has stabilized or won. 3) Blood Moon decks tend to pack a lot of removal, meaning expending more resources into making a lot of creatures larger leads to blowouts, or counters, which make Lotus Bloom garbage.
If you need access to more mana and want something relevant in the burn matchup (where you may be able to win on turn 2 with three mana available), try a full set of Simian Spirit Guide and Manamorphose.
The good news is that Blood Moon isn't as bad as some discussing it in this thread make it out to be. If it gets down before a Death's Shadow or Hooting Mandrills make it down, it can be troublesome, but that is so unlikely. Otherwise you can still resolve Mutagenic Growths and Temur Battle Rage.
I play every creature in the 75 against Abzan, which lets us go wide against Liliana and their infinite removal. We really want two creatures in play on turn three in spite of Path, Abrupt Decay, and Thoughtseize. The Hooting Mandrils come in then and any time Nourishing Shoal comes in. I like PTPaul's list using the four flex slots (Lightning Bolt) on creatures, even if I can't play Tarmogoyf there right now. This gives us an edge in game one of discard and heavy-spot removal decks.
I do not recommend Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize. It is relevant in the burn matchup but a liability against Amulet Bloom and various iterations of Tron.
Pact of Negation is a temporary sideboard card and can never be a permanent staple. I bring it in against decks with 4 Path because opponents are greedy and play for the 2-for-1. Pact answers that now, but it won't forever. Faith's Shield, Vines of Vastwood, and Apostle's Blessing will be useful rotation pieces with the Pacts.