5 colors in such a low land count deck seems really bad to me. I do think I'm going to put inversion somewhere in the 75 as I have bant eldrazi and eldrazi and taxes in my meta, so I need more for their displacer.
I tested a bit against my roommates bogles deck yesterday and you have to mull to some hand disruption. It also gets a lot worse on the draw if you don't hit 3 lands or liliana.
I'm trying snapcaster mage out as a one of finding I like being able to Traverse for it to then flash back for removal, Traverse, discard, bolt etc... I need to pick up some cards yet but went 1-2 vs infect, 2-1 vs elves, and 1-2 verses an esper deck with swords both game three losses my opponent only had a couple life left. Even though I was playing bolt I was able to get delirium by turn two or three the majority of the games. Game three vs infect I'd planned on killing an enchanted Thurn the last troll with Liliana in hand post combat but he was able to get to a dryad arbor out to save it. The esper deck was playing swords with path and push for removal. I was keeping him off creatures and had him to 2 life when he top decked 1cc creature and put sword of fire and ice and sword of feast and famine on it. I think in both losses playing Tarmogoyfs rather than the substitute of Grim Flayer it would have made the games a turn or two shorter in my favor.
There was some meaningful discussion and then people with janky brews and ideas came in
I hope the mods change the title soon so players can brainstorm about the deck
I've been playing Lantern since it was a curious jank brew mired in Tier 4 obscurity. It's now a solid Tier 2 choice which represents the Prison archetype and has taken down two Grand Prix. A lot of people will attribute the deck's recent success to the printings of Collective Brutality and Inventors' Fair, but in reality, the true reason it has succeeded is the passionate, diverse, dedicated community of contributors and playtesters who are constantly working on testing new ideas and making improvements. Take a look at thnkr/phlsphr's massive spreadsheet outlining the deck's win percentages against most tiered decks, as well as analyzing a breakdown of the effectiveness of specific cards in the opening hand and addressing myriad other issues associated with playing the deck. A lot of work has gone into making Lantern a success, and it's the result of dozens, if not hundreds, of contributors (including myself) who have given their time, expertise, skill, and ideas to make Lantern as great as it can be. Suicide is still being worked out, and its varying permutations are still being made distinct. Suicide has what it takes to become a Tier 1 deck, maybe even the best deck in the current format, and I truly think that Suicide can borrow a lot from Lantern's developmental process in order to lay the foundation for this to become a reality.
The Lantern community has an unwritten rule: "You can suggest whatever ideas you like, but don't expect them to become considered until you put the work into testing it." I have personally suggested well over a dozen different ideas ranging from in-game strategies to tech cards, and have tested each one in succession myself. Occasionally, one or two other people will like my idea and test it with me, but a lot of it has been on my own. Overall, very few of them have ultimately worked out, with the most successful (read: widely-accepted) venture I can take full credit for originating probably being putting Mechanized Production in the sideboard when in control/prison/Tron metas. I shared both my successes and my failures, and provided my own detailed analysis for everything, which allowed other people to learn from my shortcomings and adopt my good ideas for their own use. It's the same method that Lantern used when it adopted mainstays such as Ensnaring Bridge and Collective Brutality and situational cards like Glint-Nest Crane and mana denial. (In case it's not obvious: This means that I'm not saying everyone should try Murmuring Bosk. I will test it on my own, and will outline why it's good or bad once I've gotten in some practice with it myself.)
Any good deck will have its small core of consistent pro/"pro" grinders who work night and day getting in practice and testing serious ideas. But it also needs a large number of supporters, getting in practice on Cockatrice and FNMs with their own unique flavors, so they can provide a constant supply of good ideas. It's important for the core players to keep an open mind to serious new ideas, but it's also important for contributors to filter their own suggestions so that only the serious ones are truly discussed. The responsibility for maintaining a healthy discussion falls on everyone.
Something else that may help out is providing more structure to the discussion. I have a link to Lantern's primer in my signature. It explains a lot of things about the deck so new players can read at their own leisure to familiarize themselves with how Lantern works and feels. The primer also has answers to common questions that new players have. I seriously think that Suicide needs a strong, in-depth primer so that new players can jump right into the advanced discussion and begin churning out higher-quality content. I feel like if Suicide had any sort of primer, then I wouldn't have needed to ask the seven beginner questions that I led off with, and would have probably been able to make improvements to my own deck without outside help – like changing Bolt to Tarfire. (Suicide's primer should include deck-specific discussions like an in-depth analysis of fetch/shock combinations and analyses of non-core cards like Ghor-Clan Rampager, Liliana of the Veil, Kolaghan's Command, Painful Truths, and Snapcaster Mage.)
It looks like Suicide now has a brand-new subreddit, and I think everyone here should take a look. There are several flavors floating around: Jund, Grixis, Sultai, Abzan, Yidris (my favorite). Maybe a tag system could be added a la Tron's subreddit, in order to differentiate between different color combinations and strategies. It would also allow for higher visibility of particular topics that you wish to "brainstorm"; just submit a new text post detailing the discussion you wish to start, and you'll have created a highly-focused conversation with your fellow Suiciders.
Feel free to critique, implement, or ignore my ideas! I'll continue posting here unless the environment becomes/remains hostile to newer players, in which case I'll either go to the subreddit or just work on the deck myself. I love the idea and hope that it can truly succeed!
Be the change you wish to see.
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Just FYI, don't call the deck "suicide". There's quite a few serious reasons for this that I won't discuss, but just don't do it. If it's a habit, break the habit.
The current nomenclature is Shadow Jund or Death's Shadow Jund. The thread title needs changing, as the zoo deck is completely gone at this point, and we're all talking about the recently popular version that did well at the GP.
And yes, innovation is what we want. I agree. Although there are certain points where one can say objectively that an idea won't work, and that's fine. There's no need to get defensive if someone says "that's a cool idea but sorry it won't work, let's try something else". For instance, trying to run five colours in a deck that only plays 5 or 6 fetchable lands in total is opening yourself up to some awful matchup percentages against decks that shouldn't be beating you or are already slightly tricky. Merfolk, sun/moon, blue moon, tron, by jankily trying for a fifth colour you are artificially ruining your matchup against decks like these, which all pack maindeck manabase disruption.
I don't see a problem with a three colour version incorporating blue, but there are a couple of issues I'd raise with the lists posted so far trying to hit 5 colours.
1) the deck already relies on the graveyard. Utilising snapcaster is making the deck much more reliant, and therefore you are building additional weakness into the deck
2) with 18 lands (ish) you won't ever be snapping back a kolaghan's command. What is snappy there for, realistically? Even bolt-snap-bolt would be hard to cast. Seems slow.
I think realistically, a blue she'll needs to adopt a different kind of pace to the jund shell, maybe a bit more like delver. This would make it slower, though, and potentially much worse right now. Losing kolaghan's command and tarfire (you'd have to drop red) isn't where you want to be with the deck.
Yeah, I want to focus on the jund version and the merits of white or not. I think the land base gets stronger dropping white, but the sb gets a lot weaker to the grind matches. I think the grixis and such versions are interesting, but definitely slower, even for delver style decks. I don't think that's where the deck wants to be as right now, it is strong with the Goyf and Death shadow beat down plan.
With that said, should we consider another mb cantrip like sign in blood that can second as a "shock" to close out the game or feeds our shadows? I've been on the 19th land and considering dropping it for SiB mb. Any thoughts?
Why is Fatal Push generally prefered to Dismember in this deck ?
Being able to hit bigger things (unless you play the mirror) and grow your Death's Shadow seems like a decent upgrade.
I think we do a great job hitting Shadow range as is and don't want to rely too heavily on hurting ourselves for removal. Being able to hit anything from a 2-4 drop regardless of their toughness is also great for 1 mana. I'm sure we could play Dismember in the sb if we needed bigger removal.
Because at some point you have to concede that aggro and burn are real archetypes and you have to play some matchups conservatively and let them take your life down
You don't need 19 lands, I don't think. The deck runs pretty well with 8 lands and 8 cantrips.
This deck is already tier 1, the GP, the SCG, the side event, TCG States and MTGO pretty much confirm this, now people just need to put the numbers together. It's without a doubt not just a tier 1 deck, but THE tier 1 deck right now.
There's passion to try fun things, but the deck is well defined now, now it should be more about things like running the white splash, the lilies, tuning and tweeking the numbers for pushes, K-commands and whatnot.
I respect not wanting to discuss the blue splash, but you really should change the name of the thread then. (Not really understanding why a blue splash is so taboo but a white one's just fine. :/) I'll just take my discussion to Reddit, and make sure to message ktkenshinx about the whole matter, so other new players don't fall in the same trap that I did. Does anyone want to write a primer?
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No worries Does anyone want to write a primer? Do we even have enough material with which to write a primer?
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I'll message ktkenshinx now, explaining the need for a new thread. The mods are typically understanding about this sort of thing. What should be the thread's title? Should it include just Jund builds and other flavors would have their own threads, or should it encompass all Death's Shadow decks?
Updates
1) Sent message suggesting Jonny as the new owner of the new thread.
CRUGGCCCCCCCGBGBGBCCCCCCCBBUWC MODERN – LANTERN(aka Fateseal or Barbershop) Primer–Subreddit–Facebook–Decklist–Gameplay Thnkr's Content:Gameplay–Datasheet Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow. CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
I'll message ktkenshinx now, explaining the need for a new thread. The mods are typically understanding about this sort of thing. What should be the thread's title? Should it include just Jund builds and other flavors would have their own threads, or should it encompass all Death's Shadow decks?
Updates
1) Sent message suggesting Jonny as the new owner of the new thread.
I tested a bit against my roommates bogles deck yesterday and you have to mull to some hand disruption. It also gets a lot worse on the draw if you don't hit 3 lands or liliana.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
2x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Temur Battle Rage
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Death's Shadow
3x Grim Flayer
1x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Island
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Pyroclasm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Terminate
1x Collective Brutality
1x Timely Reinforcements
2x Tormod's Crypt
I hope the mods change the title soon so players can brainstorm about the deck
The Lantern community has an unwritten rule: "You can suggest whatever ideas you like, but don't expect them to become considered until you put the work into testing it." I have personally suggested well over a dozen different ideas ranging from in-game strategies to tech cards, and have tested each one in succession myself. Occasionally, one or two other people will like my idea and test it with me, but a lot of it has been on my own. Overall, very few of them have ultimately worked out, with the most successful (read: widely-accepted) venture I can take full credit for originating probably being putting Mechanized Production in the sideboard when in control/prison/Tron metas. I shared both my successes and my failures, and provided my own detailed analysis for everything, which allowed other people to learn from my shortcomings and adopt my good ideas for their own use. It's the same method that Lantern used when it adopted mainstays such as Ensnaring Bridge and Collective Brutality and situational cards like Glint-Nest Crane and mana denial. (In case it's not obvious: This means that I'm not saying everyone should try Murmuring Bosk. I will test it on my own, and will outline why it's good or bad once I've gotten in some practice with it myself.)
Any good deck will have its small core of consistent pro/"pro" grinders who work night and day getting in practice and testing serious ideas. But it also needs a large number of supporters, getting in practice on Cockatrice and FNMs with their own unique flavors, so they can provide a constant supply of good ideas. It's important for the core players to keep an open mind to serious new ideas, but it's also important for contributors to filter their own suggestions so that only the serious ones are truly discussed. The responsibility for maintaining a healthy discussion falls on everyone.
Something else that may help out is providing more structure to the discussion. I have a link to Lantern's primer in my signature. It explains a lot of things about the deck so new players can read at their own leisure to familiarize themselves with how Lantern works and feels. The primer also has answers to common questions that new players have. I seriously think that Suicide needs a strong, in-depth primer so that new players can jump right into the advanced discussion and begin churning out higher-quality content. I feel like if Suicide had any sort of primer, then I wouldn't have needed to ask the seven beginner questions that I led off with, and would have probably been able to make improvements to my own deck without outside help – like changing Bolt to Tarfire. (Suicide's primer should include deck-specific discussions like an in-depth analysis of fetch/shock combinations and analyses of non-core cards like Ghor-Clan Rampager, Liliana of the Veil, Kolaghan's Command, Painful Truths, and Snapcaster Mage.)
It looks like Suicide now has a brand-new subreddit, and I think everyone here should take a look. There are several flavors floating around: Jund, Grixis, Sultai, Abzan, Yidris (my favorite). Maybe a tag system could be added a la Tron's subreddit, in order to differentiate between different color combinations and strategies. It would also allow for higher visibility of particular topics that you wish to "brainstorm"; just submit a new text post detailing the discussion you wish to start, and you'll have created a highly-focused conversation with your fellow Suiciders.
Feel free to critique, implement, or ignore my ideas! I'll continue posting here unless the environment becomes/remains hostile to newer players, in which case I'll either go to the subreddit or just work on the deck myself. I love the idea and hope that it can truly succeed!
Be the change you wish to see.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
The current nomenclature is Shadow Jund or Death's Shadow Jund. The thread title needs changing, as the zoo deck is completely gone at this point, and we're all talking about the recently popular version that did well at the GP.
And yes, innovation is what we want. I agree. Although there are certain points where one can say objectively that an idea won't work, and that's fine. There's no need to get defensive if someone says "that's a cool idea but sorry it won't work, let's try something else". For instance, trying to run five colours in a deck that only plays 5 or 6 fetchable lands in total is opening yourself up to some awful matchup percentages against decks that shouldn't be beating you or are already slightly tricky. Merfolk, sun/moon, blue moon, tron, by jankily trying for a fifth colour you are artificially ruining your matchup against decks like these, which all pack maindeck manabase disruption.
I don't see a problem with a three colour version incorporating blue, but there are a couple of issues I'd raise with the lists posted so far trying to hit 5 colours.
1) the deck already relies on the graveyard. Utilising snapcaster is making the deck much more reliant, and therefore you are building additional weakness into the deck
2) with 18 lands (ish) you won't ever be snapping back a kolaghan's command. What is snappy there for, realistically? Even bolt-snap-bolt would be hard to cast. Seems slow.
I think realistically, a blue she'll needs to adopt a different kind of pace to the jund shell, maybe a bit more like delver. This would make it slower, though, and potentially much worse right now. Losing kolaghan's command and tarfire (you'd have to drop red) isn't where you want to be with the deck.
With that said, should we consider another mb cantrip like sign in blood that can second as a "shock" to close out the game or feeds our shadows? I've been on the 19th land and considering dropping it for SiB mb. Any thoughts?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Being able to hit bigger things (unless you play the mirror) and grow your Death's Shadow seems like a decent upgrade.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
This deck is already tier 1, the GP, the SCG, the side event, TCG States and MTGO pretty much confirm this, now people just need to put the numbers together. It's without a doubt not just a tier 1 deck, but THE tier 1 deck right now.
There's passion to try fun things, but the deck is well defined now, now it should be more about things like running the white splash, the lilies, tuning and tweeking the numbers for pushes, K-commands and whatnot.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
You seem like a really nice guy and just want to discuss the deck, I apologize coming off rude
I think I'm more frustrated by the whole thread needing a whole reboot
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
Updates
1) Sent message suggesting Jonny as the new owner of the new thread.
MODERN – LANTERN (aka Fateseal or Barbershop)
Primer – Subreddit – Facebook – Decklist – Gameplay
Thnkr's Content: Gameplay – Datasheet
Each eye sees a different possibility for tomorrow.
CWUBBCCCCCCCBGBGBGCCCCCCCGGURC
PM me and the three other moderators so we have a PM record of the transfer. Follow the guidelines here and we'll see if we can get you set up on the new one!
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/646532-how-to-create-take-over-primers
You can start writing and send us... I would love to help with some inputs and previous experience =)