Sounds like it may have been the result of mulligan decisions rather than the deck itself (wouldn't know unless you detailed the hands that you're keeping). If you're playing on paper it's important to thoroughly shuffle (since we are no longer shuffling regularly during the game and our nonland cards tend to bunch up). If neither of these apply then ignore me
I'm still deciding if I like 17 lands with 3 opt or 18 lands with two Peer better (I keep the 7th medallion). 17 lands feels greedy at times, especially post board games.
Playing online with Fetchless, I've not had this issue. Most games I confidently see 3 lands. You're playing more real lands than fetch version, so your likelihood is greater than before. Gifts of course shuffles the deck for you, but when you're casting gifts it should essentially be GG.
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Playing online with Fetchless, I've not had this issue. Most games I confidently see 3 lands. You're playing more real lands than fetch version, so your likelihood is greater than before. Gifts of course shuffles the deck for you, but when you're casting gifts it should essentially be GG.
I know this is anecdotal but I felt mana starved all night, including one match where I sent back a 6-land opening hand and had to mulligan to 3 before seeing a land again. There were also plenty of times where sleight of hand shows me 2nd land and a really important card and I HAVE to take the land but tucking a gifts or a PiF just feels terrible. I almost want to consider cutting it for something perhaps less efficient but at least less horrific a drawback.
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Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I don't think storm is really deserving of a ban. Paper magic is just a bit slow to adapt to it. I've been facing some pretty absurd amounts of hate on MTGO.
People aren't packing enough variety of answers to storm. This is really no different from legacy storm. You can interact with storm 3 ways: permanent hate (rule of law, RIP, etc), counterspells (Dispel, Negate, etc), discard (IoK, Thoughtseize, etc), and a fast clock. You really need a mix of disruption to beat storm because we'll beat pretty much any one kind on it's own. Discard: Just make land drop and cast PiF; Counterspells: Play slow until you can overload them since our spells cost half the price of their's; Permanent Hate: Bounce it; Fast Clock: win on turn 3/4.
The big thing I've found is that people don't respect empty anywhere near as much as they should. If I were playing a deck that is soft to empty (shadow, etc) I would want multiple ways to answer it post board. But people just don't seem to have these. Of the decks that are soft to empty from the last SCG event no one is playing more than 4 cards that interact well with empty and most are just play two. That's not enough especially when some of those cards are on the slow side (All is Dust) or are too reactive (Battle rage in particular). People aren't really preparing well enough for storm. Storm isn't like affinity where your hate is pretty narrow. Basically all storm hate outside of Eidolon, Rule of Law and Canonist is quite useful in other matchups. For example if you're playing UW control maybe instead of multiple wraths play a copy of EE or two so you can hold up mana rather than tapping out.
But what I'm really saying is please don't ban another storm card (unless you give us back probe and then you can ban gifts).
Personally, I'm assuming a ban takes place, solely because WOTC does not like Storm. I mean the two reasons its popular are a low price point and being good against the two ramp decks. They'll cite the turn 4 rule, something about limiting diversity, and maybe even claiming that the time it takes to execute the storm kill on that turn takes too long.
Hey guys. I'm an oldie who used to play storm a while ago. Can someone explain the place of Remand in the deck? This isn't an interactive Tempo deck like Splinter Twin or something so it's inclusion puzzles me quite a bit. Several lists are running 3+ copies as well so there has to be some reason why it is seeing play. So ultimately my curiosity boils down to:
1. Why is now the time for a fast combo deck like storm to play this interactive card?
2. What is the purpose of playing Remand over some other cantrips?
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Cuts required storm count in half. Cast grapeshot, hold priority, cast Remand targeting Grapeshot, recast Grapeshot. Also cantrips against an opponent trying to resolve a key spell (Thalia, thought Knot Seer, etc).
We've seen versions without Remand do well, but the half-storm kill is mostly it
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Hey guys. I'm an oldie who used to play storm a while ago. Can someone explain the place of Remand in the deck? This isn't an interactive Tempo deck like Splinter Twin or something so it's inclusion puzzles me quite a bit. Several lists are running 3+ copies as well so there has to be some reason why it is seeing play. So ultimately my curiosity boils down to:
1. Why is now the time for a fast combo deck like storm to play this interactive card?
2. What is the purpose of playing Remand over some other cantrips?
Summing up:
1. Lets you grapeshot for lethal from a storm count of half your opponent life total.
2. Buys a turn from Eidolon of the Revel
3. Great against other U based control decks.
4. Some synergy with Baral.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Though I think if any deck will be made vulnerable to a ban with a strong PT showing, it is Storm. Fortunately that gives me about four more months to mess around with this deck and try to win some more so as to get cards for another deck. I still must really be bad at sideboarding though.
I played a dozen paper matches today against Jeskai Queller, Esper control, Living End, and Jund... gotta say, I was impressed. Actually playing the deck, in paper is so different than online. So much more complicated not to telegraph your intentions than playing online lmao
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Eh, still not convinced on it's effectiveness. Sometimes you need a card later in the game, but not at the time, so you scry it to the bottom and fetch later. No fetches means fewer ways of getting it off the bottom. That being said I think in the end it's un-resolvable.
We need at least 8 one-mana cantrips and we know that because there's a significant number of game where we need to dig for a second land. And we don't need to do a statistical analysis to figure it out. We can do a statistical analysis on mana costs to know that the deck should be running 17-18 lands. But the fetch less issue?
I don't think there is a practical way to get the data for "how many times would shuffling to get cards off the bottom won me the game?" versus "how many times would have keeping dead card on the bottom won me game?". And the effect of each is so subtle that without definitive stats it's impossible to know.
Of course it didn't help that he found turn 2 Eidolon both games. I was able to Grapeshot the Eidolon but in response he casts Shard Volley, takes 2 damage, and finishes me off with Gonti's Machinations.
Eh, still not convinced on it's effectiveness. Sometimes you need a card later in the game, but not at the time, so you scry it to the bottom and fetch later. No fetches means fewer ways of getting it off the bottom. That being said I think in the end it's un-resolvable.
We need at least 8 one-mana cantrips and we know that because there's a significant number of game where we need to dig for a second land. And we don't need to do a statistical analysis to figure it out. We can do a statistical analysis on mana costs to know that the deck should be running 17-18 lands. But the fetch less issue?
I don't think there is a practical way to get the data for "how many times would shuffling to get cards off the bottom won me the game?" versus "how many times would have keeping dead card on the bottom won me game?". And the effect of each is so subtle that without definitive stats it's impossible to know.
From a mathematics perspective, knowing the bottom of the deck restricts the probability space so that you can have more accurate expectations and can better gauge the risk associated with depending on any expected line of play.
Most people dont count cards to be able to use this to its potential though. Also, using evidence to inform decision-making might give your gameplay an edge, but we don't know whether this difference is significant. At the end of the day who cares.. this game is way too complex and RNG dependent to argue about whether we should attempt to control the randomness. Just play what feels right I play fetchless so that I can use my fetches in my GDS deck, and it feels great even though I initially didn't think I'd like it (I prefer deck thinning and bloodmoon).
It's easier to run the numbers when it's not a brand new distribution after cracking every fetch. If I've bottomed 4 different cards throughout the game, that reduces the card pool I'm drawing from while giving me more information as to what I COULD draw.
The number of games I've played with fetchless is less than 100 still, but there hasn't been an instance where I've bottomed a card I later needed so far. Gifts shuffles the deck, so does getting your bear PtE, so it's not inaccessible for the most part.
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Where I think fetchless really shines is in specific difficult match ups like burn where the additional pain from your mana base is not nothing, and the marginal advantage of thinning and a shuffle effect is questionable.
Our filtering is already so good that the advantage of the thinning from fetches is marginal, and post board Peer through depths/pieces and gifts give us killer selection making the shuffle somewhat irrelevant in most circumstances. The 2-4 damage you will take off your mana base is often relevant, however, and I am surprised that the advantage of less pain from your mana base is not a larger part of this conversation. In many matches that could be the difference between killing Edilon with a grape shot and being to low to cast the spells.
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I'm still deciding if I like 17 lands with 3 opt or 18 lands with two Peer better (I keep the 7th medallion). 17 lands feels greedy at times, especially post board games.
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I know this is anecdotal but I felt mana starved all night, including one match where I sent back a 6-land opening hand and had to mulligan to 3 before seeing a land again. There were also plenty of times where sleight of hand shows me 2nd land and a really important card and I HAVE to take the land but tucking a gifts or a PiF just feels terrible. I almost want to consider cutting it for something perhaps less efficient but at least less horrific a drawback.
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
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People aren't packing enough variety of answers to storm. This is really no different from legacy storm. You can interact with storm 3 ways: permanent hate (rule of law, RIP, etc), counterspells (Dispel, Negate, etc), discard (IoK, Thoughtseize, etc), and a fast clock. You really need a mix of disruption to beat storm because we'll beat pretty much any one kind on it's own. Discard: Just make land drop and cast PiF; Counterspells: Play slow until you can overload them since our spells cost half the price of their's; Permanent Hate: Bounce it; Fast Clock: win on turn 3/4.
The big thing I've found is that people don't respect empty anywhere near as much as they should. If I were playing a deck that is soft to empty (shadow, etc) I would want multiple ways to answer it post board. But people just don't seem to have these. Of the decks that are soft to empty from the last SCG event no one is playing more than 4 cards that interact well with empty and most are just play two. That's not enough especially when some of those cards are on the slow side (All is Dust) or are too reactive (Battle rage in particular). People aren't really preparing well enough for storm. Storm isn't like affinity where your hate is pretty narrow. Basically all storm hate outside of Eidolon, Rule of Law and Canonist is quite useful in other matchups. For example if you're playing UW control maybe instead of multiple wraths play a copy of EE or two so you can hold up mana rather than tapping out.
But what I'm really saying is please don't ban another storm card (unless you give us back probe and then you can ban gifts).
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1. Why is now the time for a fast combo deck like storm to play this interactive card?
2. What is the purpose of playing Remand over some other cantrips?
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
We've seen versions without Remand do well, but the half-storm kill is mostly it
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Summing up:
1. Lets you grapeshot for lethal from a storm count of half your opponent life total.
2. Buys a turn from Eidolon of the Revel
3. Great against other U based control decks.
4. Some synergy with Baral.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
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We need at least 8 one-mana cantrips and we know that because there's a significant number of game where we need to dig for a second land. And we don't need to do a statistical analysis to figure it out. We can do a statistical analysis on mana costs to know that the deck should be running 17-18 lands. But the fetch less issue?
I don't think there is a practical way to get the data for "how many times would shuffling to get cards off the bottom won me the game?" versus "how many times would have keeping dead card on the bottom won me game?". And the effect of each is so subtle that without definitive stats it's impossible to know.
Of course it didn't help that he found turn 2 Eidolon both games. I was able to Grapeshot the Eidolon but in response he casts Shard Volley, takes 2 damage, and finishes me off with Gonti's Machinations.
I'm wondering if I should up my Bolt count to 4
From a mathematics perspective, knowing the bottom of the deck restricts the probability space so that you can have more accurate expectations and can better gauge the risk associated with depending on any expected line of play.
Most people dont count cards to be able to use this to its potential though. Also, using evidence to inform decision-making might give your gameplay an edge, but we don't know whether this difference is significant. At the end of the day who cares.. this game is way too complex and RNG dependent to argue about whether we should attempt to control the randomness. Just play what feels right I play fetchless so that I can use my fetches in my GDS deck, and it feels great even though I initially didn't think I'd like it (I prefer deck thinning and bloodmoon).
The number of games I've played with fetchless is less than 100 still, but there hasn't been an instance where I've bottomed a card I later needed so far. Gifts shuffles the deck, so does getting your bear PtE, so it's not inaccessible for the most part.
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Our filtering is already so good that the advantage of the thinning from fetches is marginal, and post board Peer through depths/pieces and gifts give us killer selection making the shuffle somewhat irrelevant in most circumstances. The 2-4 damage you will take off your mana base is often relevant, however, and I am surprised that the advantage of less pain from your mana base is not a larger part of this conversation. In many matches that could be the difference between killing Edilon with a grape shot and being to low to cast the spells.