All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
The format is slowing down again though, mostly because of us. Every time a big meta shake-up happens, the format becomes faster for a while, as it doesn't really matter what the meta is as long as you kill your opponent before they can do what they want to do. Then, once the original "confusion" subsides, slower decks return as they now know what they have to be able to stop. And now Jeskai Harbinger is a tier 1 deck, people have to start asking themselves what they plan to do to beat a deck with 10+ mainboard removal spells + snapcaster; historically the response has been to go bigger.
For the longest time in Jeskai Control the mirror was an afterthought, but now Jeskai Harbinger is one of the top decks to beat. A Jeskai deck that runs AV beats a Jeskai deck that doesn't, so you should run AV.
Yeah, it is always risky to talk about "the meta", as there is a surprising amount of difference between paper and online. Between Europe and America as well. So even if you're building towards a big event instead of just a local meta of 20 decks, you have to keep in mind what the statistics on a metagame site actually represent
Also I added the sideboard cards guide to the primer
First off great job on this primer/thread. I'm looking forward to learning as much as possible as I am 95% complete w/ this deck. What is the last 5%? Ancestral Vision. My plan is to play 3 in the MD but I'm on the fence as to if it is better off in the SB. Therefore, I wanted to go about it from a match-up perspective. Also, before anyone says anything about if it is the "right" thing to do, I encourage you to take a look at the previous 4 pages which has examples of top-8 results with and without AV in the MD.
Below are the Tier 1 and 2 decks. My two questions would be (and the answer may be the same):
1) would you want AV in game 1 against this deck? yes/no
2) would you board it out in game 2? (this question may be trickier as you may want to board it out but you have slightly worse cards that you need to board-out first and there aren't enough SB cards coming in) yes/no/would if I could
Alt question:
3) If AV is in your sideboard against this deck, would AV come in without hesitation? (similar to Q1 but some match-ups it may not really matter) Yes/No
If you guys dont think this is helpful I'd be happy to edit it to make the results more effective.
I can tally the results in a few days once people have commented.
Any notes with regards to the match-ups are appreciated
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: Burn (18-6-1 over multiple events)
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
Right now I'm playing without AV and I haven't feel any real backbreaking disadvantage. These are my answers though I might be off in some matchups I haven't played as often as I'd like:
Jund 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Burn 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Affinity 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Tron 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Abzan Company 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Infect 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Jeskai Harbinger (mirror w/ AV) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Zoo (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
CoCo Elves (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Abzan Midrange/Junk (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Grixis Control (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Kiki chord (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Death and Taxes (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Bant Eldrazi (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Scapeshift (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Merfolk (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Ad Nauseam (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
RG Eldrazi (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
I can tally the results in a few days once people have commented.
You should consider meta % as well, and any player should interpret the results adjusting to his/her own meta. Also wouldn't a poll be better so we do not fill the thread with this kind of posts?
You should consider meta % as well, and any player should interpret the results adjusting to his/her own meta. Also wouldn't a poll be better so we do not fill the thread with this kind of posts?
I'd be happy to do a poll but I'm not sure how to do this. If someone know how, can you post it? If not I can google it tonight.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: Burn (18-6-1 over multiple events)
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
i feel like you would be boarding otu av wayyyy too much.
The only matchups of these i´d take out AV are burn, affinity, zoo and infect.
never ever would i board it out vs abzan company, pretty much never for all the other ones
Yeah, personally I don't like AV that much, I'd rather be playing more removal than cards to draw more cards that draw more cards. I've always been more a tempo player than a counter-draw-go. But please let's not make this a discussion about if AV is good or not because we've been arguing it since the unbanning and everyone seems to have their own opinion: playing AV or not is up to the player and is not a prerequisite to be successful as much as it would be to play 4 snaps or at least 3 Nahiris...
I think is useful to have info about when to side it in or out (if you run it at all) but trivial (and even painful to read) if AV is worth it or not.
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
This doesn't sound right. Isn't PT Born of the Gods where Shaun McLaren went nuts with his all-in Control Jeskai? If so, Lee Shi Tian was on Blue Moon. Also, how could Infect have Become Immense when it wasn't out yet? Become Immense is in Khans of Tarkir. That's two sets after Born of the Gods.
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
That's just....wrong....like really wrong.
Im not sure what tapping stones is smoking - but it must be pretty strong..
Public Mod Note
(ktkenshinx):
Infraction for trolling -ktkenshinx-
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
That's just....wrong....like really wrong.
Im not sure what tapping stones is smoking - but it must be pretty strong..
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
"Paper" modern is about as slow as it's been at any time that I can remember. Hence why cards like Nahiri are not only playable but very good. But it seems to me people are starting to skimp on anti-burn sideboard which could really make things speed up.
I keep seeing people mention Suicide zoo and Bushwacker zoo those decks are barely existent in paper magic. They make up a minuscule portion of the overall metagame.
As I said before, if the format stays this slow then 4x AV will become the go to. The card started in sideboards, then slowly crept it's way into mainboards and has been pretty consistently at 3 copies, traditionally cards that are played as three ofs usually go up to 4 ofs and I see this as being a natural progression. The card is too strong.
Cryptic Command is good in every matchup
All jokes aside though, Stabiloblau expounded a little on the point that I was going to make: the format has sped up a lot since that Born of the Gods PT. Remember that the best decks of that time were Pod and Twin, two decks that played long and punished low to the ground aggro decks (and matchups where overwhelming card advantage from the Jeskai side was strategically advantageous). Zoo and Affinity were really the only successful, popular aggro decks around back then. Burn didn't have Eidolon, Infect didn't have Become Immense, Collected Company wasn't a thing yet, and a slew of turn 3/4 linear decks were kept in check by the ever looming threat of end-step Deceiver Exarch.
Obviously I'm not saying that AV is bad, or that there isn't a place for it. I'm just saying that building your deck around it carries inherent risks.
For the longest time in Jeskai Control the mirror was an afterthought, but now Jeskai Harbinger is one of the top decks to beat. A Jeskai deck that runs AV beats a Jeskai deck that doesn't, so you should run AV.
Also I added the sideboard cards guide to the primer
Below are the Tier 1 and 2 decks. My two questions would be (and the answer may be the same):
1) would you want AV in game 1 against this deck? yes/no
2) would you board it out in game 2? (this question may be trickier as you may want to board it out but you have slightly worse cards that you need to board-out first and there aren't enough SB cards coming in) yes/no/would if I could
Alt question:
3) If AV is in your sideboard against this deck, would AV come in without hesitation? (similar to Q1 but some match-ups it may not really matter) Yes/No
Deck (2=tier 2)
Jund 1) 2) 3)
Burn 1) 2) 3)
Affinity 1) 2) 3)
Tron 1) 2) 3)
Abzan Company 1) 2) 3)
Infect 1) 2) 3)
Jeskai Harbinger (mirror w/ AV) 1) 2) 3)
Zoo (2) 1) 2) 3)
CoCo Elves (2) 1) 2) 3)
Abzan Midrange/Junk (2) 1) 2) 3)
Grixis Control (2) 1) 2) 3)
Kiki chord (2) 1) 2) 3)
Death and Taxes (2) 1) 2) 3)
Bant Eldrazi (2) 1) 2) 3)
Scapeshift (2) 1) 2) 3)
Merfolk (2) 1) 2) 3)
Ad Nauseam (2) 1) 2) 3)
RG Eldrazi (2) 1) 2) 3)
If you guys dont think this is helpful I'd be happy to edit it to make the results more effective.
I can tally the results in a few days once people have commented.
Any notes with regards to the match-ups are appreciated
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
Jund 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Burn 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Affinity 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Tron 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Abzan Company 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Infect 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Jeskai Harbinger (mirror w/ AV) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Zoo (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
CoCo Elves (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Abzan Midrange/Junk (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Grixis Control (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Kiki chord (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Death and Taxes (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Bant Eldrazi (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Scapeshift (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
Merfolk (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
Ad Nauseam (2) 1) yes 2) no 3) yes
RG Eldrazi (2) 1) no 2) yes 3) no
You should consider meta % as well, and any player should interpret the results adjusting to his/her own meta. Also wouldn't a poll be better so we do not fill the thread with this kind of posts?
I'd be happy to do a poll but I'm not sure how to do this. If someone know how, can you post it? If not I can google it tonight.
Eldrazi and Taxes (under construction)
Modern: Eldrazi Tron (All sanctioned events; Record: 38-9-2 over ~12 Wed/Fri Night Modern events: 78% match win rate; last updated 9.13.17)
Jeskai Harbinger
Naya Burn (20-6-2 over multiple 1K and FNM events; retired)
Building: Esper control and a mill deck for fun and some variety.
And even then, countermagic comes out first, so I'd probably still end up running a copy or two for lack of better options
Yeah, personally I don't like AV that much, I'd rather be playing more removal than cards to draw more cards that draw more cards. I've always been more a tempo player than a counter-draw-go. But please let's not make this a discussion about if AV is good or not because we've been arguing it since the unbanning and everyone seems to have their own opinion: playing AV or not is up to the player and is not a prerequisite to be successful as much as it would be to play 4 snaps or at least 3 Nahiris...
I think is useful to have info about when to side it in or out (if you run it at all) but trivial (and even painful to read) if AV is worth it or not.
This is factually incorrect. Infect DID already have Become Immense at that Pro Tour. Burn DID already have Eidolon. Burn put Lee Shi Tian in the Top 8 of that Pro Tour (he lost the eventual Champion playing Twin. So no, most of what you just wrote was completely false. Jeskai wasn't even a competitive deck at that time. The format was arguably MUCH faster with tons of Affinity, Burn and Infect.
This doesn't sound right. Isn't PT Born of the Gods where Shaun McLaren went nuts with his all-in Control Jeskai? If so, Lee Shi Tian was on Blue Moon. Also, how could Infect have Become Immense when it wasn't out yet? Become Immense is in Khans of Tarkir. That's two sets after Born of the Gods.
That's just....wrong....like really wrong.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
Im not sure what tapping stones is smoking - but it must be pretty strong..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Here's the deck deck. Pretty sure that's 4x Become Immense.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30279_The-Pro-Tour-Infect-Primer.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30279_The-Pro-Tour-Infect-Primer.html
No, it isn't. 4x Become immense.
No, I said the Pro Tour before Eldrazi Winter. THEY made the mistake of picking a previous Pro Tour for some odd reason.
I keep seeing people mention Suicide zoo and Bushwacker zoo those decks are barely existent in paper magic. They make up a minuscule portion of the overall metagame.
As I said before, if the format stays this slow then 4x AV will become the go to. The card started in sideboards, then slowly crept it's way into mainboards and has been pretty consistently at 3 copies, traditionally cards that are played as three ofs usually go up to 4 ofs and I see this as being a natural progression. The card is too strong.
Could you provide your list?
It says right in the long line of quotes in my above comment that you were talking about PT BNG.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
They made a mistake. Not sure why you are trying to put it off on me. I clearly said the PT before Eldrazi winter.