So I've been testing and tuning a Jund Titan-Shift list for SCG Charlotte and wanted to get some input. I started with the list from April (LINK) and a list from an IQ (LINK). There's been a number of changes through playtesting that have happened but I think I've settled on a decent list. I'm just looking for some outside feedback on this list because it's been a lot of my own thoughts and I'm sure others have been testing as well. Here is the link to my list, hopefully you all have some feedback (LINK)
Your mana base is strange. I really think instead of 13 mountains in the 3 color lists, you need 12 mountains and an overgrown tomb/temple garden/breeding pool depending on your splash color. Even with maindeck anger of the gods, black and green are more important. Also, with less of a maindeck emphasis on red, I think the debate between cinder glade and stomping ground is solved in favor of glade. The only time i think you consider 3 or 4 stomping ground is if you are maindecking bolts and angers but with only 2 maindeck red cards, is got 4-2 in favor of glade. Then I would swap one of the blood crypts for an overgrown tomb.
As for the nonlands, the entire sideboard is a meta call. I don't know the playerbase in and around Charlotte so I can't help you there. However, I've always been disappointed by grafdiggers cage. We already beat collected company decks with all of our removal and angers. And for any other graveyard deck, relic replaces itself to keep us with more gas and that speed bump is enough.
We were only at tier one because between us and through the breach, RG valakut decks were around a tier 1 percentage. But with through the breach disappearing in the wake of Deaths Shadow, Titanshift as a standalone deck is a tier 2 percent of the meta.
Also, @Brock, I like Sweltering Suns as a mainboard sweeper.
That's fine. I think these are based on the ModernNexus Tiers, which has us at around 3.6 (we're grouped with Through the Breach). The next one up is Eldrazi Tron at 4.6% and then Abzan and Affinity at 4.8%. It's splitting hairs on the numbers.
Features:
2 Wood Elves
0 Courser
0 KHE or Omen
3 Chandra (these seem awful against DS)
2 Sweltering maindeck
3 Bolt maindeck with another in the side
2 RG cycle-land
2 Hornet Nest in the sideboard
It looks like his idea is to not mess around with slow stuff like Courser and just ramp-ramp-ramp with 15 ramp spells.
They actually changed over to Mainphasemtg this time. Something about how they weigh paper events versus 5-0's and stuff. They also said it will update more frequently, tier 1-2 are harder to stay in for a long time but easier to hop into if there's an abrupt meta shift, etc. Also, they seem to have done a tiny amount of clearing out the developing competitive sub-forum and said it will be significantly harder to move into that out of deck creation.
But yeah, the difference between tier 1 and 2 is still tiny. Also, I think it's always important to remember that a tier ranking doesn't say how good our deck is. The tiers are entirely meta % based and are grouped how they are so that people preparing for a tournament know what they are most likely to face and thus what they need to prepare for.
Edit: I actually went over to where they got their most recent data. It has us at 3.77%, breach at .92% and the bottom tier 1 deck (UR Gifts Storm) at 5.19%. So, if you combine the valakut titan decks, it's 4.69% which still leaves a clean tier break at 5% being a threshold for tier 1. Or, if you wanted to do the break at the sharpest change, it would be between Jund Shadow at 5.91% and Storm at 5.19%.
So, it looks like any way you cut it, not enough people are playing Titans and Valakuts to call it tier 1. It doesn't mean the decks not good, just not as highly played right now.
Ehh, I just accepted a while ago that I need to bookmark the tier subforums instead of the individual thread. I like that they keep it up to date, it gives easy access to know what's being played.
Played in an 11 person WNM, cut to 4 rounds and paid by record.
Round 1 vs. GW Tron. In the first game, he won the die roll and had turn 4 Tron and Karn, but for some reason exiled a card from my hand. I exile Explore and then play a Prime Time next turn. It gets exiled, but I had another and a land. In the next game, he misses Tron on turn 3 and I Beast Within a Tron land soon thereafter. He draws that Tron land a couple of turns later, but can't find the last piece. He goes for EoT Warping Wail for a 1/1 Scion, and sacrifices it into Worldbreaker, but I already had a Titan the turn before and I also have Scapeshift. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Devoted Druid Combo. In the first game, he had some gas. I Lightning Bolted a Devoted Druid, Chandra, ToD another one on turn 3, and then got a Prime Time down. Since I had Sakura Tribe-Elder, I was insulated against a combo and he did Collected Company into double Vizier of Remedies with Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder already Companied out earlier. He goes for Chord for Viscera Seer, but with the Persist on the stack and the Kitchen Finks in the graveyard, I sac my STE to kill his Viscera Seer. Then I cast show a land for lethal after my Titan swing. I had also topdecked another Titan, so maybe I sequenced the turn wrong? In the next game, I keep a hand with double Lightning Bolt, double Explore, Anger of the Gods, Farseek, and Wooded Foothills. I get Anger of the Gods on his Finks and BoP and he doesn't recover in time. I get good ramp into Scapeshift. Almost thought he might have Aven Mindcensor, but I had (2) Lighting Bolt in hand anyway. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. GB Tron. He does the turn 1 Expedition Map into 2 Tron pieces, but when he searches for another Tower, I read him to have Tron in hand anyway and Ulamog. He doesn't and only has an Oblivion Stone, which wipes a Titan. The next Titan kills. In the next game, he has a rough starting after we both mulled to 6. He does 2 Tron lands into double Blooming Marsh, but a Tron land is Beast Withined. He ends up considering a turn when I Search for Tomorrow. He does Warping Wail. I do Scapeshift. He does Warping Wail. I draw another Scapeshift of the top the next turn. He does 3rd Warping Wail! I draw another Scapeshift off the top and it resolves and is game. Technically he could have saved the first Warping Wail, but he really didn't have gas in hand anyway. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Titanshift. This is the mirror, except he runs 3 Khalni Heart Expedition and I use a list with 3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I scoop to him because he gave me the ride here. We play for fun. I ramp a lot in game 1 and play Scapeshift to win. In the next game, I have pretty good ramp again, but he does as well and does Farseek and Scapeshift on the same turn to kill me. In the last game, I ramp solidly, but he does it better. He actually had 6 land in play and Scapeshift/Lightning Bolt in hand, but missed a land drop and I did Scapeshift for a bunch to kill him dead. 2-1 technically, but scooped 0-2.
I finish 3-1 or 4-0 in matches, which is pretty good. Just when I had that 2-3 at the GPT, I'm reminded of what makes this deck so strong. Also drew pretty nutty. I've never had a hand with Scapeshift and then drawn 2 more in a row in the late game. That's just ridiculous.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
How have you been finding the 3 Chandra? I'd like to know before I invest in them.
They have been really good in the few matches I've played. I play a lot of Modern decks and Titanshift is not my top choice right now, but I've really enjoyed them. Although Khalni Heart Expedition has been amazing for me in the past and dead at times, Chandra has been sooooo good so far. (fewer than 30 matches with it)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Unless you are playing on MODO and thus can't test things beforehand, I highly suggest testing things out at least a little before buying them. Especially something on the pricy end like Chandra. Just scribble own the name in a scrap of printer paper and throw it in a sleeve over a flipped card. Then, if you like it, invest. But $60 for 3 cards is a lot to not give a shot yourself.
Unless you are playing on MODO and thus can't test things beforehand, I highly suggest testing things out at least a little before buying them. Especially something on the pricy end like Chandra. Just scribble own the name in a scrap of printer paper and throw it in a sleeve over a flipped card. Then, if you like it, invest. But $60 for 3 cards is a lot to not give a shot yourself.
I've been running a 1-of Chandra, since I pulled one back when Kaladesh was new, but a 1-of isn't enough to get a good understanding of how a card feels in multiples, at least in my opinion.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I agree with you. That is why I like to run larger numbers in testing. So take the cards she would replace and pretend they are her for a few matches against some friends and see what happens. If you like it, get them. If it feels clunky or you don't like it, don't.
Has anyone ever tested Koth of the Hammer in titanshift? Seems like a pretty natural fit, and his + and - abilities give us range with a 4/4 beater, and a big bunch of ramp. You could easily play a titan the turn you play a Koth, and his ultimate give us a ton of reach. I have a stock RG list going right now, but I think I am going to flex in 2x Koth and 2x Chandra this weekend to see how it feels.
Has anyone ever tested Koth of the Hammer in titanshift? Seems like a pretty natural fit, and his + and - abilities give us range with a 4/4 beater, and a big bunch of ramp. You could easily play a titan the turn you play a Koth, and his ultimate give us a ton of reach. I have a stock RG list going right now, but I think I am going to flex in 2x Koth and 2x Chandra this weekend to see how it feels.
Koth doesn't affect the board, so I don't know why you would want him. Yes, with 6 lands, you can play Koth + Titan in the same turn. But, in that situation, Titan by itself will likely win you the game so you don't need Koth.
If we were more of a midrange deck that just happened to cast Titans/Scapeshift sometimes, then Koth would seem like a more natural fit, but that is a different deck.
All of Chandra's abilities are better than all of Koth's:
1) Removal - Koth can't do this
2) Card advantage - Koth can't do this
3) Damage the opponent - Koth does this with a 4/4 that makes your Mountains vulnerable to removal
4) Ramp - Koth generates more mana, but by the time you have 4 mana for either planeswalker, you only need 2 more mana to cast Titan anyway. You rarely need 50 mana from Koth
I haven't tested Koth at all, but I can't imagine many scenarios where he's better, and I can imagine a ton where he's much worse.
On a separate note, I've been trying to come up with good sideboard cards against Grixis DS. I'm thinking it's time for Thragtusk to make a comeback. Baloth can't kill Tasigur/Angler, and Baloth dies to Push. Thrag can trade with either of those threats and only dies to Bolt/Terminate.
I have been seeing thragtusk pop up in the RG lists lately. Seems like the reasons you put forth are pretty reasonable. Plus, it's really good against any grindy matchup. Remember the token trigger happens even if he gets exiled.
As for Jund, I'm going to make room for 2 terminate in the board. It will diversify the removal package postboard in a way that better lines up with their threats.
I haven't tested Koth at all, but I can't imagine many scenarios where he's better, and I can imagine a ton where he's much worse.
No offense, but if you haven't tested it why weight in on if its bad or good?
To Answer @TheStygian's question: I used to play with it, 2 in the SB when Blood Moon was in everyone's SB. It was sort of a lone win-con since your emblem worked through Blood Moon (like the Skred Decks). The +1 was never too relevant because there was often something I couldn't attack into. The biggest problem was protecting himself, I don't think I ever actually got his ultimate off. Ultimately, they got cut in favor of more midrange creature cards and being very proactive against BM in getting forests so I could cast those.
I don't play with Chandra a lot, but from my experience with the two her ultimate isn't as good (on the surface, like under a complete BM) but the plus and minus abilities are better suited to your gameplan.
tl;dr Wouldn't put them MB. Fine SB card if you're seeing a lot of BloodMoon.
As for the nonlands, the entire sideboard is a meta call. I don't know the playerbase in and around Charlotte so I can't help you there. However, I've always been disappointed by grafdiggers cage. We already beat collected company decks with all of our removal and angers. And for any other graveyard deck, relic replaces itself to keep us with more gas and that speed bump is enough.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Also, @Brock, I like Sweltering Suns as a mainboard sweeper.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift
thinenagooyen had another 5-0 with an interesting RG list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/664302#online
Features:
2 Wood Elves
0 Courser
0 KHE or Omen
3 Chandra (these seem awful against DS)
2 Sweltering maindeck
3 Bolt maindeck with another in the side
2 RG cycle-land
2 Hornet Nest in the sideboard
It looks like his idea is to not mess around with slow stuff like Courser and just ramp-ramp-ramp with 15 ramp spells.
But yeah, the difference between tier 1 and 2 is still tiny. Also, I think it's always important to remember that a tier ranking doesn't say how good our deck is. The tiers are entirely meta % based and are grouped how they are so that people preparing for a tournament know what they are most likely to face and thus what they need to prepare for.
Edit: I actually went over to where they got their most recent data. It has us at 3.77%, breach at .92% and the bottom tier 1 deck (UR Gifts Storm) at 5.19%. So, if you combine the valakut titan decks, it's 4.69% which still leaves a clean tier break at 5% being a threshold for tier 1. Or, if you wanted to do the break at the sharpest change, it would be between Jund Shadow at 5.91% and Storm at 5.19%.
So, it looks like any way you cut it, not enough people are playing Titans and Valakuts to call it tier 1. It doesn't mean the decks not good, just not as highly played right now.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Round 1 vs. GW Tron. In the first game, he won the die roll and had turn 4 Tron and Karn, but for some reason exiled a card from my hand. I exile Explore and then play a Prime Time next turn. It gets exiled, but I had another and a land. In the next game, he misses Tron on turn 3 and I Beast Within a Tron land soon thereafter. He draws that Tron land a couple of turns later, but can't find the last piece. He goes for EoT Warping Wail for a 1/1 Scion, and sacrifices it into Worldbreaker, but I already had a Titan the turn before and I also have Scapeshift. 2-0.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Devoted Druid Combo. In the first game, he had some gas. I Lightning Bolted a Devoted Druid, Chandra, ToD another one on turn 3, and then got a Prime Time down. Since I had Sakura Tribe-Elder, I was insulated against a combo and he did Collected Company into double Vizier of Remedies with Kitchen Finks and Spike Feeder already Companied out earlier. He goes for Chord for Viscera Seer, but with the Persist on the stack and the Kitchen Finks in the graveyard, I sac my STE to kill his Viscera Seer. Then I cast show a land for lethal after my Titan swing. I had also topdecked another Titan, so maybe I sequenced the turn wrong? In the next game, I keep a hand with double Lightning Bolt, double Explore, Anger of the Gods, Farseek, and Wooded Foothills. I get Anger of the Gods on his Finks and BoP and he doesn't recover in time. I get good ramp into Scapeshift. Almost thought he might have Aven Mindcensor, but I had (2) Lighting Bolt in hand anyway. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. GB Tron. He does the turn 1 Expedition Map into 2 Tron pieces, but when he searches for another Tower, I read him to have Tron in hand anyway and Ulamog. He doesn't and only has an Oblivion Stone, which wipes a Titan. The next Titan kills. In the next game, he has a rough starting after we both mulled to 6. He does 2 Tron lands into double Blooming Marsh, but a Tron land is Beast Withined. He ends up considering a turn when I Search for Tomorrow. He does Warping Wail. I do Scapeshift. He does Warping Wail. I draw another Scapeshift of the top the next turn. He does 3rd Warping Wail! I draw another Scapeshift off the top and it resolves and is game. Technically he could have saved the first Warping Wail, but he really didn't have gas in hand anyway. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Titanshift. This is the mirror, except he runs 3 Khalni Heart Expedition and I use a list with 3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I scoop to him because he gave me the ride here. We play for fun. I ramp a lot in game 1 and play Scapeshift to win. In the next game, I have pretty good ramp again, but he does as well and does Farseek and Scapeshift on the same turn to kill me. In the last game, I ramp solidly, but he does it better. He actually had 6 land in play and Scapeshift/Lightning Bolt in hand, but missed a land drop and I did Scapeshift for a bunch to kill him dead. 2-1 technically, but scooped 0-2.
I finish 3-1 or 4-0 in matches, which is pretty good. Just when I had that 2-3 at the GPT, I'm reminded of what makes this deck so strong. Also drew pretty nutty. I've never had a hand with Scapeshift and then drawn 2 more in a row in the late game. That's just ridiculous.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)They have been really good in the few matches I've played. I play a lot of Modern decks and Titanshift is not my top choice right now, but I've really enjoyed them. Although Khalni Heart Expedition has been amazing for me in the past and dead at times, Chandra has been sooooo good so far. (fewer than 30 matches with it)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I've been running a 1-of Chandra, since I pulled one back when Kaladesh was new, but a 1-of isn't enough to get a good understanding of how a card feels in multiples, at least in my opinion.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Koth doesn't affect the board, so I don't know why you would want him. Yes, with 6 lands, you can play Koth + Titan in the same turn. But, in that situation, Titan by itself will likely win you the game so you don't need Koth.
If we were more of a midrange deck that just happened to cast Titans/Scapeshift sometimes, then Koth would seem like a more natural fit, but that is a different deck.
All of Chandra's abilities are better than all of Koth's:
1) Removal - Koth can't do this
2) Card advantage - Koth can't do this
3) Damage the opponent - Koth does this with a 4/4 that makes your Mountains vulnerable to removal
4) Ramp - Koth generates more mana, but by the time you have 4 mana for either planeswalker, you only need 2 more mana to cast Titan anyway. You rarely need 50 mana from Koth
I haven't tested Koth at all, but I can't imagine many scenarios where he's better, and I can imagine a ton where he's much worse.
On a separate note, I've been trying to come up with good sideboard cards against Grixis DS. I'm thinking it's time for Thragtusk to make a comeback. Baloth can't kill Tasigur/Angler, and Baloth dies to Push. Thrag can trade with either of those threats and only dies to Bolt/Terminate.
As for Jund, I'm going to make room for 2 terminate in the board. It will diversify the removal package postboard in a way that better lines up with their threats.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
No offense, but if you haven't tested it why weight in on if its bad or good?
To Answer @TheStygian's question: I used to play with it, 2 in the SB when Blood Moon was in everyone's SB. It was sort of a lone win-con since your emblem worked through Blood Moon (like the Skred Decks). The +1 was never too relevant because there was often something I couldn't attack into. The biggest problem was protecting himself, I don't think I ever actually got his ultimate off. Ultimately, they got cut in favor of more midrange creature cards and being very proactive against BM in getting forests so I could cast those.
I don't play with Chandra a lot, but from my experience with the two her ultimate isn't as good (on the surface, like under a complete BM) but the plus and minus abilities are better suited to your gameplan.
tl;dr Wouldn't put them MB. Fine SB card if you're seeing a lot of BloodMoon.
Fetch-Shock-Blog
Moderator of /r/Scapeshift