Edit: Blood moon is amazing against tron, you turn them into a fair ramp deck minus the ramp. If you combine spreading seas onto their tron pieces you have more disruption then they have nature's claims in their deck.
Blood Moon is not amazing against Tron, at least not in this deck. To be amazing against Tron, Blood Moon needs to be backed up with significant pressure (preferably the kind of pressure that doesn't die off to Pyroclasm, which Blood Moon makes easier to cast) so you can kill off Tron before it gets enough lands to just hardcast its stuff. And one thing that Blue Moon very much lacks is that pressure. Oh, sure, you can counter their stuff for a while, but you run out of counterspells and then Tron just resolves a bomb and wins off of it. I'd go so far as to call this a rather favorable matchup for Tron.
I'm going to need to test the matchup more, but between remands/leaks/charms karn isn't much of a threat without tron activated and between skull shackles and cryptics wurmcoil isn't too bad. But as I said I definitely need to test it more.
I'm going to need to test the matchup more, but between remands/leaks/charms karn isn't much of a threat without tron activated and between skull shackles and cryptics wurmcoil isn't too bad. But as I said I definitely need to test it more.
The real killer in this match-up is Oblivion Stone. They will cast it for 3 mana and blow it up for 5 mana, then all your mana denial disappears. Counter that and the game might go on long enough that they stick Wurmcoil/Karn (or a 2nd O. Stone).
I'm going to need to test the matchup more, but between remands/leaks/charms karn isn't much of a threat without tron activated and between skull shackles and cryptics wurmcoil isn't too bad. But as I said I definitely need to test it more.
Batterskull is just okay against Wurmcoil Engine. Its best usage is to block and bounce before damage is dealt, preventing them from gaining life. On the downside, Wurmcoil Engine is still basically a wall against your creatures. Vedalken Shackles is an extremely effective answer if it can steal the Wurmcoil Engine, but getting 6 Islands with a Blood Moon in play can take quite a while.
Also, you overlook Oblivion Stone, which wipes your board and takes out any Blood Moons or Spreading Seas. You have to counter every Oblivion Stone and Karn Liberated they have (and Wurmcoils if you don't have Vedalken Shackles and 6 Islands) and kill them off before they just hardcast Emrakul (which admittedly does take a while even with all the cantrips and land search they have, but you're still on a deadline).
That's basically the issue. All Tron needs is a single bomb card (Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated, Wurmcoil Engine) and they basically just win, and if you can't answer every single one of them and win before they get 15 lands, you lose.
Exactly what Seth said, Nix. My brother hops between RG tron and UW tron so I test those matches fairly often, in fact more than any other modern decks. Blood moon is not as good as you'd think vs tron without pressure (well ok its a beating vs Uw tron but you have to respect countermagic against them when you go to play it). Thats partly why i cut moon and seas so i could just make room for more control elements. Blood moon is there to basically stall the game until you draw something that kills them. Its a dead card against a third of the meta and a mere nuisance against roughly half. I'd rather have room for another cryptic and some grim lavamancers (card is AMAZING right now).
I've also been considering a list with Young Pyromancer but a higher land count than the delver deck and also just plain cutting the delvers. Back to more of a tempo plan than hard control.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
well I don't know if this thread is dead or what but I"m thinking of testing a one of fabricate to fetch shackles/skull. Not sure yet, but I'll have a think on it.
Been playing this deck for the last couple of events, and I can say that keranos/hellkite works much better than masters. Masters is far easier to deal with and no where as immediate where as the other two provide so much pressure that it forces the opponent to play into counters just trying to get rid of them.
Also, does anyone have any advice for the boggles matchup outside of praying the opponent bricks?
LLMQPPG, Threads of Disloyalty maindeck has mainly fallen out of favour because Master of Waves has fallen out of favour (I was lucky to get 2 tokens out of it). More instants or Flame Slash are good replacements.
6 mana is a lot, like I mean a lot. It's never going to be a board wipe when you want it to be. You can test if you want for sure let me know your results!
I know that this is supposed to be a competitive thread, but there is no Blue Moon thread in the budget section so I would like your opinions on this budget list.
If the store hadn't run out of Condescends I would have been playing 2 more Condescends instead of a Spell Snare and a Mana Leak. I also realize that my manabase is horrible and I am working on getting some Sulfur Falls to replace some of the Islands.
Match 1: WG Death and Taxes
In the first game I was on the play and was able to land a turn 3 Blood Moon which kept him from casting many of his threats. However, he was able to find more threats than I had answers before I could find a win-con. He cast a Brimaz which I was able to chump-block with Snapcaster Mage and I cast a Keranos. However, 2 more swings from Brimaz and Aven Mindcensor were able to finish me off before I was able to get Keranos to deal 3 damage instead of drawing a card.
I boarded out my Spell Snares since he didn't seem to have many 2-drops that I couldn't Burst Lightning, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt. I replaced them with my Anger of the Gods.
In the second game he was on the play and cast Choke, which eventually led to my death many turns later. This would be another reason why I need some Sulfur Falls.
Match 2: WB Tokens (Event Deck Version)
I was playing against a player who is new to Modern and was able to counter his spells and kill his tokens with spot removal before dropping a turn 5 Blood Moon that locked him out of white mana. I eventually won with Stormbreath Dragon (though I didn't kill him until I could activate the monstrosity). He then had to leave to catch a train and dropped from the tournament after the first game.
Match 3: Ad Nauseum
In the first game I had 1 Moutnain in my opening hand, no lands in my next 6, and no lands in my next 5. I played anyways but easily lost.
I boarded out my 2 Keranos's and 2 Stormbreath Dragons and brought in Counterflux and Jace, Architect of Thought.
In the second game I had a good hand (Counterflux, Island, Island, Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Mana Leak) and my opponent did not hit his second land drop, allowing me to Mana Leak his Lotus Bloom. When he was still on 3 lands on turn 4, I cast a Jace. I decided to tick him up over the next few turns while holding up Counterflux to try and cast his Lightning Storm with Jace's ultimate, making it almost impossible for him to win. As I was doing this, I managed to cast Blood Moon (it was countered with Pact of Negation) and he cast a Phyrexian Unlife.. When I finally got Jace to 8 counters and was ready to ultimate him on his next turn, my opponent tried to combo with Ad Nauseum. I used Counterflux and he Echoing Truthed Jace. I recast him on the next turn and tried to dig for answers but I only found Mana Leak, which was useless against his second As Nauseum backed up by a second Pact of Negation.
Match 4: Monored Burn
On a semi-related note, my opponent was an 8-10 year old who was actually really good with the deck.
In game 1 I countered most of his burn, killed his creatures and was able to win with Stormbreath Dragon+Monstrosity and Snapcaster Mage+Burn. While I did manage to beat him, getting stuck with 2 Blood Moons in your hand against Burn is annoying.
I boarded out Blood Moon and boarded in Spellskite and Counterflux.
Game 2 went about the same way except he managed to make me run out of counterspells and killed me.
In game 3 I was able to counter and remove all of his cards and ride Keranos to victory with 5 turns of spells on top of my deck in a row. The best part about this game was that the kid's dad tried to get his son to cast 2 Searing Blazes when I had no creatures and the judge said that the kid was right and that his dad was wrong.
Based on how I did, I think that I should probably replace 4 Islands with Sulfur Falls, replace 1 Spell Snare with a Condescend, and try to fit another Counterflux into the maindeck.
Is the lack of Shackles a budget concern? They are almost as vital to the deck as blood moon! Without cryptic or shackles you do not need that many basic islands either.
Did you not find 3 stormbreath's too much? They don't help you stabilize and due to the lack of aggression in the deck don't close out games incredibly quick when they hit.
Is the lack of Shackles a budget concern? They are almost as vital to the deck as blood moon! Without cryptic or shackles you do not need that many basic islands either.
I am not running Shackles because it is harder to run them without fetchlands since I have to keep my Mountain count high to be able to consistently cast a turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Burst Lightning. I will get to testing it though. What would you suggest cutting for it?
Did you not find 3 stormbreath's too much? They don't help you stabilize and due to the lack of aggression in the deck don't close out games incredibly quick when they hit.
While they don't help me stabilize, they have been pretty good. Haste and immunity to Path to Exile are both amazing and I can usually help to close out the game with burn, similar to WUR Control's endgame. However, I will be trying Batterskull at some point.
I would probably cut a snare, 1-2 burst lightnings and 1 Stormbreath, for 2 spreading seas and 2 shackles. Decks like this is why we need mono colour fetches at some point for budget concerns.
I would never ever cut the cantrips in a deck like this, having a high density of cnatrips not only streamlines your blood moon game plan, but it also allows you to play a diverse range of answers and threats while at the same time playing nice with keranos and snapcaster mage.
Any reason for no remands? I find them impressive against other blue decks and they play nice under blood moon.
I would probably cut a snare, 1-2 burst lightnings and 1 Stormbreath, for 2 spreading seas and 2 shackles. Decks like this is why we need mono colour fetches at some point for budget concerns.
Shackles seems pretty mediocre. What is it good against?
I would never ever cut the cantrips in a deck like this, having a high density of cnatrips not only streamlines your blood moon game plan, but it also allows you to play a diverse range of answers and threats while at the same time playing nice with keranos and snapcaster mage.
My problem is that the cantrips are usually not good enough. I usually would prefer to do something that affects my opponent. I think that I am going to replace them with Condescend when I get some more of them.
Any reason for no remands? I find them impressive against other blue decks and they play nice under blood moon.
Remand is a really bad card in Control decks. With no way of capitalizing on them being delayed a turn, it isn't vety good. And in the late game your opponent can just recast anything that you counter with it. You want permanent answers, not minor tempo gains.
My first match was against BG Control. In the first game he discarded, I countered and removed, and then I flooded and he got mana screwed. Eventually he got to 6 mana to cast Thrun with Abrupt Decay backup (he thought that I was playing Twin). I lost soon after that.
I boarded out 2 Electrolyzes and 2 Burst Lightnings and brought in Jace and Counterflux.
In the second game we countered and removed each other's stuff f or a while until he got me down to a low life total and started trying to attack with Kitchen Finks. I landed 2 Snapcaster Mages, burned him, and play Jace to delay the Finks with his +1. He used Slaughter Pact to kill a Snapcaster Mage, but I won off of a topdecked Stormbreath Dragon in the 5 extra turns.
My second match was against Cruel Control. In the first game we countered and removed each other's cards for a while, but he was able to cast Cruel Ultimatum and Snapcaster it back before I could get a Stormbreath Dragon or Keranos through.
I boarded out my Spell Snares, 2 Burst Lightnings, and Spreading Seas and brought in Shadow of Doubt, Jace, and Counterflux
He got manascrewed in the second game and I was able to cast Jace and start gaining card advantage. However, he was still able to remove my threats and was eventually able to kill Jace before stopping me from casting Blood Moon and killing me with Creeping Tar Pit.
My third match was against BG Rock. This matchup is really bad. In the first game he made me discard my Spell Snare before landing a Goyf and then Abrupt Decay'd my Snapcaster Mage to stop me from killing the Goyf by blocking it and flashing back Bolt. He won soon after that.
I took out Electrolyze, 2 Lightning Bolts, and 2 Burst Lightnings (in retrospect I should have taken out Blood Moons) and brought in Counterflux, Jace, and Engineered Explosives.
He started off the second game with a turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage. He then cast a 1/2 Goyf to get me to spend removal on it before casting Courser of Kruphix. After stripping away my hand, he was able to win by destroying every threat that I played and slowly killing me with Fulminator Mage, Treetop Village, and Courser of Kruphix.
I got the bye in the 4th game.
In the 5th match I was up against Storm. I got color-screwed in the first game and was unable to cast my Counterflux, causing me to lose.
I boarded out Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, and 2 Burst Lightnings and brought in Counterflux, Engineered Explosives, and Shadow of Doubt.
In the 2nd game I was able to stop him from comboing off several times but he eventually was able to force a combo through.
In the end, Spreading Seas and Serum Visions both seemed pretty mediocre and I need to work on my sideboard. These are what my changes will be.
Mainboard
-2 Serum Visions
-2 Spreading Seas
+2 Condescend
+2 Jace, Architect of Thought
The real killer in this match-up is Oblivion Stone. They will cast it for 3 mana and blow it up for 5 mana, then all your mana denial disappears. Counter that and the game might go on long enough that they stick Wurmcoil/Karn (or a 2nd O. Stone).
Also, you overlook Oblivion Stone, which wipes your board and takes out any Blood Moons or Spreading Seas. You have to counter every Oblivion Stone and Karn Liberated they have (and Wurmcoils if you don't have Vedalken Shackles and 6 Islands) and kill them off before they just hardcast Emrakul (which admittedly does take a while even with all the cantrips and land search they have, but you're still on a deadline).
That's basically the issue. All Tron needs is a single bomb card (Oblivion Stone, Karn Liberated, Wurmcoil Engine) and they basically just win, and if you can't answer every single one of them and win before they get 15 lands, you lose.
I've also been considering a list with Young Pyromancer but a higher land count than the delver deck and also just plain cutting the delvers. Back to more of a tempo plan than hard control.
Also, does anyone have any advice for the boggles matchup outside of praying the opponent bricks?
Twitch channel
4 Snapcaster Mages
3 Stormbreath Dragons
4 Blood Moon
2 Spreading Seas
3 Condescend
2 Counterflux
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Serum Visions
11 Island
3 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Spellskite
2 Spreading Seas
2 Counterflux
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Bribery
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Burst Lighting
1 Condescend
2 Counterflux
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Spell Snare
2 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Serum Visions
11 Island
7 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
2 Counterflux
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Anger of the Gods
If the store hadn't run out of Condescends I would have been playing 2 more Condescends instead of a Spell Snare and a Mana Leak. I also realize that my manabase is horrible and I am working on getting some Sulfur Falls to replace some of the Islands.
Match 1: WG Death and Taxes
In the first game I was on the play and was able to land a turn 3 Blood Moon which kept him from casting many of his threats. However, he was able to find more threats than I had answers before I could find a win-con. He cast a Brimaz which I was able to chump-block with Snapcaster Mage and I cast a Keranos. However, 2 more swings from Brimaz and Aven Mindcensor were able to finish me off before I was able to get Keranos to deal 3 damage instead of drawing a card.
I boarded out my Spell Snares since he didn't seem to have many 2-drops that I couldn't Burst Lightning, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt. I replaced them with my Anger of the Gods.
In the second game he was on the play and cast Choke, which eventually led to my death many turns later. This would be another reason why I need some Sulfur Falls.
Match 2: WB Tokens (Event Deck Version)
I was playing against a player who is new to Modern and was able to counter his spells and kill his tokens with spot removal before dropping a turn 5 Blood Moon that locked him out of white mana. I eventually won with Stormbreath Dragon (though I didn't kill him until I could activate the monstrosity). He then had to leave to catch a train and dropped from the tournament after the first game.
Match 3: Ad Nauseum
In the first game I had 1 Moutnain in my opening hand, no lands in my next 6, and no lands in my next 5. I played anyways but easily lost.
I boarded out my 2 Keranos's and 2 Stormbreath Dragons and brought in Counterflux and Jace, Architect of Thought.
In the second game I had a good hand (Counterflux, Island, Island, Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Mana Leak) and my opponent did not hit his second land drop, allowing me to Mana Leak his Lotus Bloom. When he was still on 3 lands on turn 4, I cast a Jace. I decided to tick him up over the next few turns while holding up Counterflux to try and cast his Lightning Storm with Jace's ultimate, making it almost impossible for him to win. As I was doing this, I managed to cast Blood Moon (it was countered with Pact of Negation) and he cast a Phyrexian Unlife.. When I finally got Jace to 8 counters and was ready to ultimate him on his next turn, my opponent tried to combo with Ad Nauseum. I used Counterflux and he Echoing Truthed Jace. I recast him on the next turn and tried to dig for answers but I only found Mana Leak, which was useless against his second As Nauseum backed up by a second Pact of Negation.
Match 4: Monored Burn
On a semi-related note, my opponent was an 8-10 year old who was actually really good with the deck.
In game 1 I countered most of his burn, killed his creatures and was able to win with Stormbreath Dragon+Monstrosity and Snapcaster Mage+Burn. While I did manage to beat him, getting stuck with 2 Blood Moons in your hand against Burn is annoying.
I boarded out Blood Moon and boarded in Spellskite and Counterflux.
Game 2 went about the same way except he managed to make me run out of counterspells and killed me.
In game 3 I was able to counter and remove all of his cards and ride Keranos to victory with 5 turns of spells on top of my deck in a row. The best part about this game was that the kid's dad tried to get his son to cast 2 Searing Blazes when I had no creatures and the judge said that the kid was right and that his dad was wrong.
Based on how I did, I think that I should probably replace 4 Islands with Sulfur Falls, replace 1 Spell Snare with a Condescend, and try to fit another Counterflux into the maindeck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Did you not find 3 stormbreath's too much? They don't help you stabilize and due to the lack of aggression in the deck don't close out games incredibly quick when they hit.
I am not running Shackles because it is harder to run them without fetchlands since I have to keep my Mountain count high to be able to consistently cast a turn 1 Lightning Bolt/Burst Lightning. I will get to testing it though. What would you suggest cutting for it?
While they don't help me stabilize, they have been pretty good. Haste and immunity to Path to Exile are both amazing and I can usually help to close out the game with burn, similar to WUR Control's endgame. However, I will be trying Batterskull at some point.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I would never ever cut the cantrips in a deck like this, having a high density of cnatrips not only streamlines your blood moon game plan, but it also allows you to play a diverse range of answers and threats while at the same time playing nice with keranos and snapcaster mage.
Any reason for no remands? I find them impressive against other blue decks and they play nice under blood moon.
Shackles seems pretty mediocre. What is it good against?
My problem is that the cantrips are usually not good enough. I usually would prefer to do something that affects my opponent. I think that I am going to replace them with Condescend when I get some more of them.
Remand is a really bad card in Control decks. With no way of capitalizing on them being delayed a turn, it isn't vety good. And in the late game your opponent can just recast anything that you counter with it. You want permanent answers, not minor tempo gains.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Blood Moon
4 Burst Lighting
1 Condescend
2 Counterflux
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Spreading Seas
2 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Serum Visions
9 Island
6 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
2 Counterflux
3 Shadow of Doubt
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Anger of the Gods
My first match was against BG Control. In the first game he discarded, I countered and removed, and then I flooded and he got mana screwed. Eventually he got to 6 mana to cast Thrun with Abrupt Decay backup (he thought that I was playing Twin). I lost soon after that.
I boarded out 2 Electrolyzes and 2 Burst Lightnings and brought in Jace and Counterflux.
In the second game we countered and removed each other's stuff f or a while until he got me down to a low life total and started trying to attack with Kitchen Finks. I landed 2 Snapcaster Mages, burned him, and play Jace to delay the Finks with his +1. He used Slaughter Pact to kill a Snapcaster Mage, but I won off of a topdecked Stormbreath Dragon in the 5 extra turns.
My second match was against Cruel Control. In the first game we countered and removed each other's cards for a while, but he was able to cast Cruel Ultimatum and Snapcaster it back before I could get a Stormbreath Dragon or Keranos through.
I boarded out my Spell Snares, 2 Burst Lightnings, and Spreading Seas and brought in Shadow of Doubt, Jace, and Counterflux
He got manascrewed in the second game and I was able to cast Jace and start gaining card advantage. However, he was still able to remove my threats and was eventually able to kill Jace before stopping me from casting Blood Moon and killing me with Creeping Tar Pit.
My third match was against BG Rock. This matchup is really bad. In the first game he made me discard my Spell Snare before landing a Goyf and then Abrupt Decay'd my Snapcaster Mage to stop me from killing the Goyf by blocking it and flashing back Bolt. He won soon after that.
I took out Electrolyze, 2 Lightning Bolts, and 2 Burst Lightnings (in retrospect I should have taken out Blood Moons) and brought in Counterflux, Jace, and Engineered Explosives.
He started off the second game with a turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage. He then cast a 1/2 Goyf to get me to spend removal on it before casting Courser of Kruphix. After stripping away my hand, he was able to win by destroying every threat that I played and slowly killing me with Fulminator Mage, Treetop Village, and Courser of Kruphix.
I got the bye in the 4th game.
In the 5th match I was up against Storm. I got color-screwed in the first game and was unable to cast my Counterflux, causing me to lose.
I boarded out Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, and 2 Burst Lightnings and brought in Counterflux, Engineered Explosives, and Shadow of Doubt.
In the 2nd game I was able to stop him from comboing off several times but he eventually was able to force a combo through.
In the end, Spreading Seas and Serum Visions both seemed pretty mediocre and I need to work on my sideboard. These are what my changes will be.
Mainboard
-2 Serum Visions
-2 Spreading Seas
+2 Condescend
+2 Jace, Architect of Thought
Sideboard
-2 Spellskite
+2 Relic of Progenitus
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.