Does it really matter if you lose life to a combo that's killing the turn it goes off? stubborn denial is interesting but it's unnecessary to build the creature base around have 4+ power dudes (good luck having a 4/5 tarmo in the early turns with this deck btw) when Dispel deals with pretty much everything that would disrupt your combo in modern outside of the odd maelstrom pulse here and there. Has the downside of not countering twin which I imagine would be relevant. Keep in mind the more the deck gears towards protecting the combo the less aggressive and versatile the deck itself becomes. The strength of splinter twin is that it's a hugely powerful control deck that can win without its combo if need be. I believe which should seek to emulate that sort of deck building ideology. Have a deck that stands strong on its own that can win out of nowhere when an opponent taps out. Also keep in mind that the sideboard exists for a reason. If we need to side out Retreat for more interactivity game 2 against twin we wouldn't be the first successful deck to have to do so.
First of of all, I hereby nominate this deck as Reliquary Return Bant, or RRB. Pronounced Ribs.
Juicy
Anyways, I really like the idea of going pure combo, though now that I realize Retreat only taps creatures I'm hesitant. A strong turn 3 win, no doubt, but easily played against and slow if you don't get the right hand, even with tutors like drift and commune. I think it comes down to striking th eright balance between combo and midrange, which can be hard. I do like the 3 mana creatures comboed with collected company
I do like dispel in this deck a lot, like Mantis rider said.
I'm afraid I don't have much more to add. Osacko's list seems like it's pretty close to the best we have right now, though I'd definitely substitute some creatures with dispel and maybe some other utility (We don't need 26 creature drops, including the collected companies). I'm sure there's some high class cards we could run (maybe some stuff with delve), so I'll do some searching in my free time.
Personally I think we can run 21-22 lands, given how we have 8 mana dorks.
Word to the wise, the statistical chance of getting decent hits off your collected company tank hard once you're below 25 creatures. I've been working with coco for months even at 25 hittable creatures you generally have an 85ish% chance of getting 2 creatures, though fetch thinning and Knight of the reliquary thinning helps out on that a lot later into the game. I do like Commune with the Gods in theory but a 2 mana sorcery seems awkward though the potential upside oh being able to dig for either part of the combo or a relevant creature could be make or break. If I were to add them I'd add 2 more Birds of paradise to my list, another Eternal Witness and take out the Wild Nacatl to focus on a more midrangey creature base, probably going 3 collected company, 3 Commune with the gods, 22 lands, with 25 creatures.
I'm working on a longer post, but yes, I would not go 'all in combo' as you can see Twin cannot function that way, nor would I go all in creatures, as you then will start being unable to defend your combo.
I like the idea of a a transformational sideboard, either starting as a GW creature rush with the combo taking up as little space as possible, or having the combo be the main focus, defending and setting it up like Twin.
Really though, I think with this combo Bant can play all 3, as either Combo, Aggro, or Midrange.
My biggest concern is not being able to interact with our opponents enough. It's a weakness of collected company focused decks that have such high creature counts leaving little room for removal. Is this valid worry anymore if we can combo off in a single turn now? I mean straight U/R twin just runs lightning bolt correct? Though counterspells count as interaction as well. Plus they get Snapcaster Mage to value back whatever they need. Can we just go down to 4 path to exile and load up on commune with the gods? I don't honestly know. Twin can have 8 creatures that combo off while we only have 4, but with collected company and commune with the gods we have more ways to actually find our pieces. I think the beat down shell is obviously the right way to set this up but we have this flex zone of 4ish cards where we can decide to go deeper into the combo or go heavier on the removal/aggression with lightning bolt like in my list or add counterspells to defend the combo....you could also remove the collected company and go up on counterspells and Commune with the gods though I definitely think taking collected company out is a mistake....well I'm officially babbling so I'll wrap up by saying this definitely needs some serious testing.
Twin has enough dig either through Cantrips (Electrolyze is a 2 of in most decks), Remands, Cryptics, and Lighthouse and THEN Snaps on top of it, that they can find their pieces, a lot of Twin drops to 6 creatures, but they also pull double duty in the tempo game, or have evasion.
Its why I dont think all in Combo, or CoCo is neccessarily the way forward but can be a transformational option if the matchup allows for it.
Path is ok, but we can with Knight VERY easily get a single Red source for Lightning Bolt, Roast, Rending Volley if needed, while we wont need artifact/enchantment hate in GW, removal can be a pain for sure Beast Within perhaps?.
I'm still leaning towards that Tempo/Midrange/Controlling shell personally, just working it out as I have some time. :]
Does it really matter if you lose life to a combo that's killing the turn it goes off? stubborn denial is interesting but it's unnecessary to build the creature base around have 4+ power dudes (good luck having a 4/5 tarmo in the early turns with this deck btw) when Dispel deals with pretty much everything that would disrupt your combo in modern outside of the odd maelstrom pulse here and there. Has the downside of not countering twin which I imagine would be relevant. Keep in mind the more the deck gears towards protecting the combo the less aggressive and versatile the deck itself becomes. The strength of splinter twin is that it's a hugely powerful control deck that can win without its combo if need be. I believe which should seek to emulate that sort of deck building ideology. Have a deck that stands strong on its own that can win out of nowhere when an opponent taps out. Also keep in mind that the sideboard exists for a reason. If we need to side out Retreat for more interactivity game 2 against twin we wouldn't be the first successful deck to have to do so.
Yes, the amount of life I lose to my combo matters a ton, especially against red decks. It's like Legacy ANT's Ad Nauseam suddenly sucking a lot more against aggressive enough decks--I don't want to start comboing off, lose life to fetches and shocks, then die to double Bolt or the equivalent before I can swing. I remember trying to build around Boros Reckoner + Volcano Hellion and trying to use Wall of Blood into Disciple of Bolas into Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as a finisher--I kept having to stick Spellskite in those decks because they often got into Bolt range when they comboed off.
I currently run 5 basics (1 basic Island), 4 shocklands, and 2 Lag/Tangolands, so I can float only 7 mana max pre-Kessig Wolf Run and dump only 10 lands into my graveyard if I combo off on 1 life and no more land drops. That might not turn out to be a big enough KotR--in testing against Burn, I've had to swing with a KotR with only 19 power post-Wolf Run.
We don't have to follow the Stubborn Denial path--I just think that Denial is the best counterspell if you can only play 3 counterspells because it can protect the combo or hose opposing combos for cheap. I do believe Denial is worth partially warping your creature base for. If you can play more counterspells, old standbys like Mana Leak are better.
Emblem of the Warmind is the most mana efficient way to let you go off the turn you play kotr -- that I've found. Alternatively, if you can find a way to cheat in Hellraiser Goblin.
This deck can't really play the "Twin approach" to modern since you're not flashing in any of your enchantments or kotr. They can basically tapout when they want, how they want. Alchemist's Refuge is probably not able to make the cut but it does give you an option of eot casting a kotr, untapping and casting Retreat.
I hadn't considered the burn match up, but now that I think about it I'd probably side the combo out for that match up honestly and sideboard in regular burn hate like Kor Firewalker, etc. Go the beat down collected company route. I suppose I hadn't fully considered the life loss this combo results in, especially in a 4 color set up. Netting mana through extra untap triggers caused by fetch lands targeting a dork may be a way around some of the life loss. And yes, if the opponent taps out and I drop a retreat next turn and the knights already out, bam, dead that turn, very much in the style of twin. Granted we certainly can't play the guessing game with them when it comes to Knight of the Reliquary and that's a down side. Regardless, this deck follows the deck building concept of twin, having a totally competent shell around a combo that you don't totally need to draw but doing so allows you to combo off if your opponent ever lowers their shields. Feed the Clan might be good a good sideboard option to simultaneously board against burn and to board towards relying more on the combo. Courser of Kruphix counters the life issue but is generally a non-aggressive combo enabler that just complicates things. I'm going card hunting on gatherer to see if I can find something relevant.
Some cards I don't think have been discussed here yet:
Simic Charm: Super versatile as all modes are relevant for us. Protects our combo, clears the path for our beaters, helps to get in that last few points of damage or helps to surprise block Goyfs, Tas and Co. Not necessarily CA but super versatile and if we play Collected Conpany we don't have much room for spells so versatile spells are key.
Rhox War Monk: Maybe better than Kitchen Finks here. At least in a Burn infested meta.
Dromokas Command: With all our big creatures the fight mode is usually a kill spell (works well with Geist of Saint Draft as you can let the token fight after attackers are declared but before blockers are). The other modes can be helpful too in different MUs. Again versatility is key here.
Bant Charm : Good old Charm last. Probably a tad too expensive but it's another Path that also protects our creatures from most removal, counters Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach, helps against Affinity G1 and gets rid of pesky artifacts a la Ensnaring Bridge.
I'm thinking about injecting the combo into the "Eternal Command" shell, replacing red with white. In addition to access to stronger control cards such as Remand/Cryptic Command/Serum Visions, it also allows KoTR to be played at instant speed without threat of being countered via Æther Vial. Should the combo fail, the deck can play tempo with Goyfs/Cliques/KoTR, or establish a Witness-Command lock.
Don't know if this would be better than the Bant strategy being suggested, but it's another angle to approach the combo.
Emblem of the Warmind is the most mana efficient way to let you go off the turn you play kotr -- that I've found. Alternatively, if you can find a way to cheat in Hellraiser Goblin.
First off, I think you all are underestimating the new tango/battle lands. They are actually very good. Many decks in modern may find that they prefer them to shocks once we have access to the full set.
I've been going with a deck that splits the differences. Its a little bit midrange/beatdown, a little bit controlly, and a little bit centered on the combo. The current mochup I'm testing with is below. It isn't meant to be optimal, just give some idea of how these cards play. They play pretty well together. This deck doesn't really want many dorks, and Heirarch is the best dork their is in Bant. Goyf is great thanks to running fetches, Paths, visions, and Commune. Loxodon is reliable. I'm taking almost no damage off of my lands, its actually absurd. There is also plenty of room in my mana base to add utility lands to strengthen the combo.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Can't help but think there has to be some room for Steppe Lynx. Anyone tried it?
Haven't tried it yet but might be an interesting alternative to Wild Nacatl in my list, regularly a 4/5 in the early game with the chance to become unreasonably huge while the combo is in play, while making my deck less reliant on red mana sources.
I noticed Wargate is starting to be bought out of the market, but I don't see much talk of it in this deck and it seems like the only potential new fit for the card. Has anyone here considered/playtested with that card as an additional way to get out either piece?
6 mana seems kind of steep, especially at sorcery speed, but it does find either piece for you. It's not too bad post sideboard either if you can stall long enough to grab Stony Silence or something like that.
Wargate is good but at 6 mana sorcery speed its really kinda meh. I think this could work in both the coco aggroish shell and the more contrlling one. Some cards that i feel havent been talked about as much here yet:
Rhox war monk - can be hit with coco, survives bolt. Can stall, can beat.
Dragonlord ojutai - can see a control shell with only knight, goyf and ojutai as creatures. (Aside from dorks and snaps)
Personally ill be trying to brew into the control route as blue will provide us the cantrips and the necessary protection needed for the combo to go off.
Remand, stubborn, dispel, spell snare, spell pierce seem to be good fits here.
Heck maybe even cryptic if we prove to bave unreal mana producers.
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~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Juicy
Anyways, I really like the idea of going pure combo, though now that I realize Retreat only taps creatures I'm hesitant. A strong turn 3 win, no doubt, but easily played against and slow if you don't get the right hand, even with tutors like drift and commune. I think it comes down to striking th eright balance between combo and midrange, which can be hard. I do like the 3 mana creatures comboed with collected company
I do like dispel in this deck a lot, like Mantis rider said.
I'm afraid I don't have much more to add. Osacko's list seems like it's pretty close to the best we have right now, though I'd definitely substitute some creatures with dispel and maybe some other utility (We don't need 26 creature drops, including the collected companies). I'm sure there's some high class cards we could run (maybe some stuff with delve), so I'll do some searching in my free time.
Personally I think we can run 21-22 lands, given how we have 8 mana dorks.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I like the idea of a a transformational sideboard, either starting as a GW creature rush with the combo taking up as little space as possible, or having the combo be the main focus, defending and setting it up like Twin.
Really though, I think with this combo Bant can play all 3, as either Combo, Aggro, or Midrange.
Spirits
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Its why I dont think all in Combo, or CoCo is neccessarily the way forward but can be a transformational option if the matchup allows for it.
Path is ok, but we can with Knight VERY easily get a single Red source for Lightning Bolt, Roast, Rending Volley if needed, while we wont need artifact/enchantment hate in GW, removal can be a pain for sure Beast Within perhaps?.
I'm still leaning towards that Tempo/Midrange/Controlling shell personally, just working it out as I have some time. :]
Spirits
Yes, the amount of life I lose to my combo matters a ton, especially against red decks. It's like Legacy ANT's Ad Nauseam suddenly sucking a lot more against aggressive enough decks--I don't want to start comboing off, lose life to fetches and shocks, then die to double Bolt or the equivalent before I can swing. I remember trying to build around Boros Reckoner + Volcano Hellion and trying to use Wall of Blood into Disciple of Bolas into Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord as a finisher--I kept having to stick Spellskite in those decks because they often got into Bolt range when they comboed off.
I currently run 5 basics (1 basic Island), 4 shocklands, and 2 Lag/Tangolands, so I can float only 7 mana max pre-Kessig Wolf Run and dump only 10 lands into my graveyard if I combo off on 1 life and no more land drops. That might not turn out to be a big enough KotR--in testing against Burn, I've had to swing with a KotR with only 19 power post-Wolf Run.
We don't have to follow the Stubborn Denial path--I just think that Denial is the best counterspell if you can only play 3 counterspells because it can protect the combo or hose opposing combos for cheap. I do believe Denial is worth partially warping your creature base for. If you can play more counterspells, old standbys like Mana Leak are better.
Emblem of the Warmind is the most mana efficient way to let you go off the turn you play kotr -- that I've found. Alternatively, if you can find a way to cheat in Hellraiser Goblin.
Our list has Apostle's Blessing in it over Dispel, since it gets around the Abrupt Decay stuff.
Also, Dryad Arbor is both in and out. Really, it just depends on BGx.
Deck is super dead to maindeck Relic of Progenitus.
This deck can't really play the "Twin approach" to modern since you're not flashing in any of your enchantments or kotr. They can basically tapout when they want, how they want. Alchemist's Refuge is probably not able to make the cut but it does give you an option of eot casting a kotr, untapping and casting Retreat.
I like Alchemist's Refuge, was thinking Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, but thats a lot of UUU.
Spirits
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Simic Charm: Super versatile as all modes are relevant for us. Protects our combo, clears the path for our beaters, helps to get in that last few points of damage or helps to surprise block Goyfs, Tas and Co. Not necessarily CA but super versatile and if we play Collected Conpany we don't have much room for spells so versatile spells are key.
Rhox War Monk: Maybe better than Kitchen Finks here. At least in a Burn infested meta.
Dromokas Command: With all our big creatures the fight mode is usually a kill spell (works well with Geist of Saint Draft as you can let the token fight after attackers are declared but before blockers are). The other modes can be helpful too in different MUs. Again versatility is key here.
Bant Charm : Good old Charm last. Probably a tad too expensive but it's another Path that also protects our creatures from most removal, counters Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach, helps against Affinity G1 and gets rid of pesky artifacts a la Ensnaring Bridge.
Don't know if this would be better than the Bant strategy being suggested, but it's another angle to approach the combo.
Mass Hysteria, cheeri0s tech.
100th post
I've been going with a deck that splits the differences. Its a little bit midrange/beatdown, a little bit controlly, and a little bit centered on the combo. The current mochup I'm testing with is below. It isn't meant to be optimal, just give some idea of how these cards play. They play pretty well together. This deck doesn't really want many dorks, and Heirarch is the best dork their is in Bant. Goyf is great thanks to running fetches, Paths, visions, and Commune. Loxodon is reliable. I'm taking almost no damage off of my lands, its actually absurd. There is also plenty of room in my mana base to add utility lands to strengthen the combo.
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
4 Loxodon Smiter
Encahntemants
4 Retreat to coralhelm
4 path to exile
4 stubborn denial
4 serum visions
4 commune with the gods
Land
4 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
3 misty rainforest
2 Prairie Stream
2 Canopy Vista
5 forest
3 plains
2 island
- Manite
That'd kinda shoot your stubborn denial plan in the foot though, so probably run spell pierces there?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
CG
Haven't tried it yet but might be an interesting alternative to Wild Nacatl in my list, regularly a 4/5 in the early game with the chance to become unreasonably huge while the combo is in play, while making my deck less reliant on red mana sources.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
6 mana seems kind of steep, especially at sorcery speed, but it does find either piece for you. It's not too bad post sideboard either if you can stall long enough to grab Stony Silence or something like that.
Rhox war monk - can be hit with coco, survives bolt. Can stall, can beat.
Dragonlord ojutai - can see a control shell with only knight, goyf and ojutai as creatures. (Aside from dorks and snaps)
Personally ill be trying to brew into the control route as blue will provide us the cantrips and the necessary protection needed for the combo to go off.
Remand, stubborn, dispel, spell snare, spell pierce seem to be good fits here.
Heck maybe even cryptic if we prove to bave unreal mana producers.