I'm sort of under the impression that we are either a slight dog to Jund or that it is 50/50. The things that tilt the match dramatically in either direction will be the construction of the 75 for both sides and of course skill levels of both players.
re
I can thrash every poor Jund player I play. The good players play very differently and sideboard correctly. The cards I fear the most are Inquisition, Thoughtseize, and Bobby. A lot of Jund players side these cards out because they argue Inquisition is dead lategame or that Bob will kill them because they are up against an "aggro" deck.
How either deck's construction matters. Do we play dismemebers? Do we main Tidebinder Mage? Are they playing many copies of abrupt decay? Do they play darkblast or Olivia Voldaren?
I think that we are even with Jund at the worst. I agree with you on the cards that I fear the most, and those are cards that my Jund opponents never, ever side out. I do not use Dismember, though it woudl be nice here. I also bring in Tidebinder Mage off the board. Most Jund decks (that I know of) play a Olivia Voldaren in there somewhere.
Honestly, the biggest key in this matchup might be whether you're running 8-Seas or not (as steven11788 noted). If you're on 8-Seas, you're definitely favored. Otherwise, it's trickier to say.
I have been exploring potential choices for my first serious Modern deck and wanted to gather some opinions on Merfolk as a player's entry to the format. I understand that having flexible cards that can be used in more than a single archetype is a big plus, and that Merfolk's cards don't necessarily transfer as well as the fetchlands or easy to splash 2-3 CMC "goodstuff," and I am ok with this. I plan on playtesting with proxies/various online programs before fulling committing/investing in physical cards and it may be some time before I do find what I want to play. For the sake of this post, assume I have minimal knowledge of the deck & format -- go as in depth as you want. (Actual background: I mostly have played in more casual Standard-level settings in the past with friends, some FNM level play, etc.) What I wanted to ask:
Disclaimer: I realize some of these have an answer of varying depth in the OP, so I'm sorry for being redundant. I just wanted to ask as much as I could think of before I forgot to.
In your opinion(s), is Merfolk a good deck to learn the Modern format with?
Is there a natural progression of learning the deck's interactions and developing better lines of play?
As a followup to the above, is there anything overwhelming to learn for a new Modern player? (compared to say... Amulet Bloom's lines of play)
Is Merfolk a good deck to grow with as a player?
Will I have room to grow as a player as I learn what I'm doing with the deck?
...or will I learn more from just interacting with a larger number of Modern decks? (regardless of the deck I'm piloting)
Why is Merfolk "good"?
Against what decks are Merfolk considered most powerful? (or at least reasonably favored if Merfolk doesn't dominate any)
What decks will I enjoy playing against? (games with interactive back and forth plays or competitive best of 3 matches)
Could you please name decks that Merfolk struggles to win against? (just Affinity and Elves?)
Will I feel helpless vs these decks?
Can Merfolk deal with the "combo" decks well enough or will we just lose sometimes with a board full of threats?
How weak is Merfolk to answers from sideboards?
I am aware Choke is a nuisance and that board wipes of various CMC aren't our friends.
I'm not sure how to ask this... is there anything that we don't answer in a convenient way? (like how some decks struggle to answer a resolved Keranos, for example)
A few specialized questions:
What is Merfolk looking to "hit" or bounce when sideboarding in Hibernation? (what is its "target"?)
When playing, are you guys looking to hold onto Dismembers to answer a specific creature threat/manland or use as necessary?
In cases where Dismember is used based upon board state or to clear an opening for your attackers, is it just used in this deck for its cost efficiency of 1?
Merfolk avoids using fetchlands and shocks, so can we use Dismember because the life loss doesn't put us "behind" other decks?
Is there any reason the decklists are so light on instants? (3-5 mainboard at most?)
I know using a larger number of Vapor Snags was more popular in the past, is there a reason they're used less frequently in successful lists now?
If you were in my position, is there anything you would like to tell "yourself" about Merfolk/Modern? (either encouraging or discouraging)
(apologies if I accidentally left a question or sub-question unfinished and thank you for answering any you do)
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Modern Decks: WU Emeria Titan WU U Merfolk U WR Prison WR
Hi there! Allow me to offer some answers to your questions:
1. I think that Modern is a good deck to learn the format with. You'll get exposure to the way a lot of things work, since Merfolk uses creatures, spells, and noncreature permanents, and has a variety of matchups where sideboarding judiciously is often the difference between a win and a loss.
2. I think it's a good deck to grow with, otherwise I wouldn't have volunteered to take over the primer. It's got nice interaction, and is nuanced in terms of playing and deckbuilding, especially the sideboard. I've been playing it for a long time now, and I still agonize over what I have in my board.
3. Merfolk is good because it's a deck that can beat face fast, or beat face gradually while disrupting your opponent. We have game against pretty much everybody, though the easiest matchups are U-based control and midrange decks. As far as the most entertaining matchups go, I like playing against Burn or Zoo for the fast-and-furious "the race is on" kind of feel, and against Jund or Abzan for the blow-for-blow "chess match" kind of game.
4. It's mostly Affinity and Elves. Combo decks like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand can be annoying at times, especially if your counterspell package is not deep, but they can be overcome once you sideboard. This is why cards like Spell Pierce, Negate, and Unified Will are important.
5. Merfolk is pretty resilient to sideboard hate. Sweepers like Anger of the Gods, Engineered Explosives, and especially Supreme Verdict hurt, but they can be played around. I'd say the ones that suck the most are Boil and Choke, but if you have an Æther Vial and/or a board state, you can win through them. I'd say artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge, enchantments like the aforementioned Choke, and hexproof creatures (or a mass of creatures) are the hardest to deal with once they're on the table, but in general we can answer pretty much anything (one of the major perks of the deck tbh).
6. Hibernation is used to get the tempo back on your side. If your opponent is Elves and they have 8 dudes on the table by turn 4 (not uncommon), Hibernation forces them to start over, which either gives you the opening you need to swing for lethal, saves you from them swinging for lethal, or buys you the time you need to finish them off. It also does well against Zoo (since most of those creatures are also G). Given that Elves is an exceptionally tough matchup, it makes for a good sideboard option.
Dismember is used as necessary. One of the nicer plays you can use it for (in my opinion) is to kill mana dorks in order to slow your opponent's start. If your opponent's creature count is low, then you can hold it for a specific target (like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, for example). We use it mostly because U doesn't have much true removal (the fact that we don't otherwise lose life from our own cards is a bonus).
The reason why most decks don't use that many instants is because we have creatures (like Cursecatcher and Harbinger of the Tides) that have effects similar to instants, so we can afford to pack in more dudes. Incidentally, the existence of Harbinger is the reason why Vapor Snag has seen a dip in play - we can get a similar effect and get a body as a bonus.
7. I should have bought it up earlier. I kind of durdled on some of the purchases, and had to spend more money because of it. This deck is never getting banned, and never going out of style.
Do you think they should evaluate Lords differently because they're tri-coloured? Or should everyone using discard be trying to hit Sreading seas? I got a lengthy write up from a fish player that told me to always hit their lords first, and it's been working out well, but I'm also playing BW instead of BRG. I mostly ask because it's completely contrary to what I've been told before and I'm really curious.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Do you think they should evaluate Lords differently because they're tri-coloured? Or should everyone using discard be trying to hit Sreading seas? I got a lengthy write up from a fish player that told me to always hit their lords first, and it's been working out well, but I'm also playing BW instead of BRG. I mostly ask because it's completely contrary to what I've been told before and I'm really curious.
There are exceptions but in general you want to inquisition the card advantage spells. I could see a UB deck for example taking a Lord instead of Spreading seas. So there are always exceptions.
Hey all, chalice of the void seems excellent right now. So many decks are relying on serum visions,
Bolt, and thoughtseize/inquisition for efficient disruption. Not to mention the 1 mana counter spells in spell snare, dispel, and pierce. Have you seen this recent 1st place list, what are your thoughts? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-merfolk-22888#online
Also I've cut 1 master of waves from my list that was running 4 and added a 4th metros reejery in its place.
Despite being a card you want to draw I was tired of getting stuck with multiples in my opening hand and in general, I wanted to lower the curve of the deck. Thoughts on the above considerations would be appreciated.
Hey all, chalice of the void seems excellent right now. So many decks are relying on serum visions,
Bolt, and thoughtseize/inquisition for efficient disruption. Not to mention the 1 mana counter spells in spell snare, dispel, and pierce. Have you seen this recent 1st place list, what are your thoughts? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-merfolk-22888#online.
Given three Chalice of the Void, I would prefer Dismember over Vapor Snag in the main just to exclude dead draws
Hey all, chalice of the void seems excellent right now. So many decks are relying on serum visions,
Bolt, and thoughtseize/inquisition for efficient disruption. Not to mention the 1 mana counter spells in spell snare, dispel, and pierce. Have you seen this recent 1st place list, what are your thoughts? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-merfolk-22888#online.
Given three Chalice of the Void, I would prefer Dismember over Vapor Snag in the main just to exclude dead draws
I would prefer Dismember as well in that build and have a different sideboard. My main point is showcasing how effective chalice is in current meta.
Hey all, chalice of the void seems excellent right now. So many decks are relying on serum visions,
Bolt, and thoughtseize/inquisition for efficient disruption. Not to mention the 1 mana counter spells in spell snare, dispel, and pierce. Have you seen this recent 1st place list, what are your thoughts? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-merfolk-22888#online.
Given three Chalice of the Void, I would prefer Dismember over Vapor Snag in the main just to exclude dead draws
I would prefer Dismember as well in that build and have a different sideboard. My main point is showcasing how effective chalice is in current meta.
Well, I'm also running 3 Chalice main however this is due to my local meta, which currently consists mainly of burn, bogles and affinity;)
Ok first time i played vs a competent elves player and i got my arse handed to me on a silver platter.
First game he had the T3 kill (dumped his entire hand on T2) and G3 he was still way too fast.
Is there anything else besides Hibernation (and gutshot altho i find it hard to firt both into my sideboard at the same time) that we can do vs elves?
I have been thinking about chalice but it seems it would be almost useless when I am on the draw since hewill have most if not all of his relevant 1 drops in play by the time i get to cast it.
Its just a bad match up. I suggest Maindeck Tidebinders over Harbinger if it better suits your meta. Back it up with Dismembers. I'm not entirely a fan of hibernation because I've died so many times before I got to my 3rd land drop. I think Hibernation is much better vs Zoo or Podless Pod.
I play Threads of Disloyalty in my sideboard and I came across a strange interaction recently. What happens if I resolve Threads of Disloyalty on Jace Vryns Prodigy and am able to flip him into a Planeswalker on my next turn?.. Would Threads fall off and Jace would return to my opponent's control or will he become mine permanently? I'm assuming the first option but I want to be sure..Thanks.
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Modern UMerfolk WDeath and Taxes BRBliztkrieg GStompy
- - -
"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine."
-Scissors
Just a prediction of my own:
Spell Snare is going to be incredible this gp. Anyone not playing them will wish they had.
I also don't think scapeshift has what it takes to show up in numbers.
Top 8 will be 1 grixis, 2 amulet, 2 burn, 1 tron, 1 twin, 1 gbx.
I think that fish list is interesting, but not a fan of only 3 cursecatchers. No matter what 1 drop one plays, you probably want 4.
On top of that, spell snare, unified will, remand, etc, are all potentially better than pierce as far as path goes.
If you're playing white, sygg is really good.
-2 seachrome +2 island is probably reasonable.
Rest in peace in the side is better than relic.
As for scapeshift, its generally too slow against decks like tron, amulet, affinity, and burn, and you aren't always able to fight through twin's disruption.
Scapeshift suffers from the problem of being a slow deck with a limited amount of removal against fast decks, and it has to resolve a four-mana sorcery, so the slower decks will have 4 more mana with which to fight you over.
Scapeshift isn't bad, but often times you end up somewhat draw dependent, both for you (especially since there isn't a whole ton of card selection available) and your opponent.
I expect one or two to top 32 (or better), but its not a deck like jund that is both popular and powerful and much more likely to put up results.
So I played Fish for the first time at FNM (being a primarily a Standard player) and went undefeated with 33 people. I want to think I know how to play the deck effectively, but I still have lots to learn.
The main question is Dismember vs Vapor Snag. What are some reasons to play one over the other?
And for reference I was playing an old Nikachu list with the full set of Dismember in the main. I played against the mirror, Bogles, burn, Amulet Bloom, Esper Gifts, and Jund. I really liked having Dismember since no Fish player even plays it here and throws people off, but againt the mirror, burn, and Bloom I was really wishing for Snag instead.
So I played Fish for the first time at FNM (being a primarily a Standard player) and went undefeated with 33 people. I want to think I know how to play the deck effectively, but I still have lots to learn.
The main question is Dismember vs Vapor Snag. What are some reasons to play one over the other?
And for reference I was playing an old Nikachu list with the full set of Dismember in the main. I played against the mirror, Bogles, burn, Amulet Bloom, Esper Gifts, and Jund. I really liked having Dismember since no Fish player even plays it here and throws people off, but againt the mirror, burn, and Bloom I was really wishing for Snag instead.
Well Dismember is primarily grabbed for two reasons by a Merfolk player:
1) They don't like bounce effects and want hard removal, and
2) Your manabase.
Most merfolk players go heavily into the mono-blue camp. Benefit of going this way is there is less need for color fixing. So a mono-blue merfolk player and sometimes someone splashing a color, use this ability to put in Cavern of Souls into their deck. It greatly improves your chances against blue decks in the entire format. Yet there is a problem with doing this. You are technically adding more "colorless land" to the deck, as it can only produce colored mana for creature spells. A lot of lists have 2-4 Caverns in the deck with 4 Mutavaults. From this we see 6-8/20 lands are colorless. That's a 3/10 - 2/5 chance of drawing only colorless mana in your game so it makes it harder to cast colored noncreature spells. So if you are someone like me who uses a lot of colorless lands to up my advantages against blue, Dismember is easier to cast than Vapor Snag.
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Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
So I played Fish for the first time at FNM (being a primarily a Standard player) and went undefeated with 33 people. I want to think I know how to play the deck effectively, but I still have lots to learn.
The main question is Dismember vs Vapor Snag. What are some reasons to play one over the other?
And for reference I was playing an old Nikachu list with the full set of Dismember in the main. I played against the mirror, Bogles, burn, Amulet Bloom, Esper Gifts, and Jund. I really liked having Dismember since no Fish player even plays it here and throws people off, but againt the mirror, burn, and Bloom I was really wishing for Snag instead.
Congrats on the win! I have 3 Vapor Snap in my MD and 2 Dismember in my SB currently (see list). The reason for that is two-fold: there's a LOT of amulet bloom and Junk in my meta so Dismember is useless against Titans and large Tarmogoyfs AND I play against a decent number of control and burn players where vapor snagging my own Lord (or Master of Waves) is a good move. Usually I'm fast enough against my opponent that Vapor Snag acts as a bad timewalk (this is true for Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, etc since they likely can't delve twice) and in matches against red decks I don't want to spend the four life.
I'm thinking of going to a 2-1 split in the MD for a while just to test it out, but I've rarely had a Snag in hand where I wished it was Dismember.
I think that we are even with Jund at the worst. I agree with you on the cards that I fear the most, and those are cards that my Jund opponents never, ever side out. I do not use Dismember, though it woudl be nice here. I also bring in Tidebinder Mage off the board. Most Jund decks (that I know of) play a Olivia Voldaren in there somewhere.
Honestly, the biggest key in this matchup might be whether you're running 8-Seas or not (as steven11788 noted). If you're on 8-Seas, you're definitely favored. Otherwise, it's trickier to say.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I have been exploring potential choices for my first serious Modern deck and wanted to gather some opinions on Merfolk as a player's entry to the format. I understand that having flexible cards that can be used in more than a single archetype is a big plus, and that Merfolk's cards don't necessarily transfer as well as the fetchlands or easy to splash 2-3 CMC "goodstuff," and I am ok with this. I plan on playtesting with proxies/various online programs before fulling committing/investing in physical cards and it may be some time before I do find what I want to play. For the sake of this post, assume I have minimal knowledge of the deck & format -- go as in depth as you want. (Actual background: I mostly have played in more casual Standard-level settings in the past with friends, some FNM level play, etc.) What I wanted to ask:
Disclaimer: I realize some of these have an answer of varying depth in the OP, so I'm sorry for being redundant. I just wanted to ask as much as I could think of before I forgot to.
WU Emeria Titan WU
U Merfolk U
WR Prison WR
1. I think that Modern is a good deck to learn the format with. You'll get exposure to the way a lot of things work, since Merfolk uses creatures, spells, and noncreature permanents, and has a variety of matchups where sideboarding judiciously is often the difference between a win and a loss.
2. I think it's a good deck to grow with, otherwise I wouldn't have volunteered to take over the primer. It's got nice interaction, and is nuanced in terms of playing and deckbuilding, especially the sideboard. I've been playing it for a long time now, and I still agonize over what I have in my board.
3. Merfolk is good because it's a deck that can beat face fast, or beat face gradually while disrupting your opponent. We have game against pretty much everybody, though the easiest matchups are U-based control and midrange decks. As far as the most entertaining matchups go, I like playing against Burn or Zoo for the fast-and-furious "the race is on" kind of feel, and against Jund or Abzan for the blow-for-blow "chess match" kind of game.
4. It's mostly Affinity and Elves. Combo decks like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand can be annoying at times, especially if your counterspell package is not deep, but they can be overcome once you sideboard. This is why cards like Spell Pierce, Negate, and Unified Will are important.
5. Merfolk is pretty resilient to sideboard hate. Sweepers like Anger of the Gods, Engineered Explosives, and especially Supreme Verdict hurt, but they can be played around. I'd say the ones that suck the most are Boil and Choke, but if you have an Æther Vial and/or a board state, you can win through them. I'd say artifacts like Ensnaring Bridge, enchantments like the aforementioned Choke, and hexproof creatures (or a mass of creatures) are the hardest to deal with once they're on the table, but in general we can answer pretty much anything (one of the major perks of the deck tbh).
6. Hibernation is used to get the tempo back on your side. If your opponent is Elves and they have 8 dudes on the table by turn 4 (not uncommon), Hibernation forces them to start over, which either gives you the opening you need to swing for lethal, saves you from them swinging for lethal, or buys you the time you need to finish them off. It also does well against Zoo (since most of those creatures are also G). Given that Elves is an exceptionally tough matchup, it makes for a good sideboard option.
Dismember is used as necessary. One of the nicer plays you can use it for (in my opinion) is to kill mana dorks in order to slow your opponent's start. If your opponent's creature count is low, then you can hold it for a specific target (like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, for example). We use it mostly because U doesn't have much true removal (the fact that we don't otherwise lose life from our own cards is a bonus).
The reason why most decks don't use that many instants is because we have creatures (like Cursecatcher and Harbinger of the Tides) that have effects similar to instants, so we can afford to pack in more dudes. Incidentally, the existence of Harbinger is the reason why Vapor Snag has seen a dip in play - we can get a similar effect and get a body as a bonus.
7. I should have bought it up earlier. I kind of durdled on some of the purchases, and had to spend more money because of it. This deck is never getting banned, and never going out of style.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
There are exceptions but in general you want to inquisition the card advantage spells. I could see a UB deck for example taking a Lord instead of Spreading seas. So there are always exceptions.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Bolt, and thoughtseize/inquisition for efficient disruption. Not to mention the 1 mana counter spells in spell snare, dispel, and pierce. Have you seen this recent 1st place list, what are your thoughts? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-merfolk-22888#online
Also I've cut 1 master of waves from my list that was running 4 and added a 4th metros reejery in its place.
Despite being a card you want to draw I was tired of getting stuck with multiples in my opening hand and in general, I wanted to lower the curve of the deck. Thoughts on the above considerations would be appreciated.
Twitch Channel - https://www.twitch.tv/moontimedweller
MODERN - Mono-Blue Merfolk & 7-Forest Goblin Charbelcher
LEGACY - Ruby Storm & Burn
PAUPER - Zombies, Bogles, & Burn
Given three Chalice of the Void, I would prefer Dismember over Vapor Snag in the main just to exclude dead draws
I would prefer Dismember as well in that build and have a different sideboard. My main point is showcasing how effective chalice is in current meta.
Well, I'm also running 3 Chalice main however this is due to my local meta, which currently consists mainly of burn, bogles and affinity;)
bottom list
UMerfolk
WDeath and Taxes
BRBliztkrieg
GStompy
- - -
"Rock is overpowered. Paper is fine."
-Scissors
Spell Snare is going to be incredible this gp. Anyone not playing them will wish they had.
I also don't think scapeshift has what it takes to show up in numbers.
Top 8 will be 1 grixis, 2 amulet, 2 burn, 1 tron, 1 twin, 1 gbx.
I think that fish list is interesting, but not a fan of only 3 cursecatchers. No matter what 1 drop one plays, you probably want 4.
On top of that, spell snare, unified will, remand, etc, are all potentially better than pierce as far as path goes.
If you're playing white, sygg is really good.
-2 seachrome +2 island is probably reasonable.
Rest in peace in the side is better than relic.
As for scapeshift, its generally too slow against decks like tron, amulet, affinity, and burn, and you aren't always able to fight through twin's disruption.
Scapeshift suffers from the problem of being a slow deck with a limited amount of removal against fast decks, and it has to resolve a four-mana sorcery, so the slower decks will have 4 more mana with which to fight you over.
Scapeshift isn't bad, but often times you end up somewhat draw dependent, both for you (especially since there isn't a whole ton of card selection available) and your opponent.
I expect one or two to top 32 (or better), but its not a deck like jund that is both popular and powerful and much more likely to put up results.
The main question is Dismember vs Vapor Snag. What are some reasons to play one over the other?
And for reference I was playing an old Nikachu list with the full set of Dismember in the main. I played against the mirror, Bogles, burn, Amulet Bloom, Esper Gifts, and Jund. I really liked having Dismember since no Fish player even plays it here and throws people off, but againt the mirror, burn, and Bloom I was really wishing for Snag instead.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
1) They don't like bounce effects and want hard removal, and
2) Your manabase.
Most merfolk players go heavily into the mono-blue camp. Benefit of going this way is there is less need for color fixing. So a mono-blue merfolk player and sometimes someone splashing a color, use this ability to put in Cavern of Souls into their deck. It greatly improves your chances against blue decks in the entire format. Yet there is a problem with doing this. You are technically adding more "colorless land" to the deck, as it can only produce colored mana for creature spells. A lot of lists have 2-4 Caverns in the deck with 4 Mutavaults. From this we see 6-8/20 lands are colorless. That's a 3/10 - 2/5 chance of drawing only colorless mana in your game so it makes it harder to cast colored noncreature spells. So if you are someone like me who uses a lot of colorless lands to up my advantages against blue, Dismember is easier to cast than Vapor Snag.
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
Congrats on the win! I have 3 Vapor Snap in my MD and 2 Dismember in my SB currently (see list). The reason for that is two-fold: there's a LOT of amulet bloom and Junk in my meta so Dismember is useless against Titans and large Tarmogoyfs AND I play against a decent number of control and burn players where vapor snagging my own Lord (or Master of Waves) is a good move. Usually I'm fast enough against my opponent that Vapor Snag acts as a bad timewalk (this is true for Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, etc since they likely can't delve twice) and in matches against red decks I don't want to spend the four life.
I'm thinking of going to a 2-1 split in the MD for a while just to test it out, but I've rarely had a Snag in hand where I wished it was Dismember.