4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Faithless Looting
4 Burning Inquiry
With
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Street Wraith
2 Conflagrate
To some degree of success. I've been able to put up to 10 power on board before my opponents first Upkeep. I think I'm going to go 4 Dangerous Wagers instead of 3 Wraith and going to 4 of Thugs and 16 lands. I want to abuse the fast starts and so far it's really fun but not consistent. I'll leave my results with the new list if anyone would be interested
As you said, the biggest problem with this list is consistency - if you have spirit guides but no other enablers in an otherwise solid hand, you have to mulligan. Imo you can make your build a lot better by turning those 4 spirit guides into tome scours. Also you might like to add one or two life from the loams to make your bloodghasts even better
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Modern
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
@Travinski, I think the one card that is really lacking from your list is Insolent Neonate. I feel like most would agree that at this point the core of the archetype is:
That still leaves plenty of room for further development, but I do feel like these 28, alongside 16-20 lands, are mandatory.
I am definitely interested in testing results! The more the better.
Edit - @daviusminimus, I'm not sure that I agree with your reasoning for Voice over Wager. If you already have 2 lands in play, discarding lands can't be that big of a deal. I feel like with a T1 Neonate/Looting/Scour and a T2 Wager you should be able to find a Loam that you can dredge on the next drawstep.
RG Tron is easier if you have Bridges in your deck - if they tap out to wipe your board with a non-Ugin card, you'll just hit back with 3+ Zombies. You can also Darkblast/Gargadon sac your Bloodghasts with Bridge in the graveyard to increase pressure.
The thing is, there is no universally agreed way to build the deck at the moment, so some builds may find certain matchups more difficult than others. I have been tracking match results for different builds in the last spoilered section of the primer in an attempt to get a better overall picture of the deck, and to pinpoint matchups which may differ based on build. For example, no matter what build you're on, generally the 1-for-1 fair decks are good matchups and the spell-based combo decks are bad matchups. My personal experience playing the deck (enabler-heavy and max Loam builds) agrees with this.
If you'd like, you could contribute to the data collection project by posting your decklist and the exact results of each match, i.e. 2-0, 2-1, 0-2, or 1-2. Thanks!
edit: daviusminimus: I don't like 1-of Leylines in the SB. For Vitality: do you side in Pharaoh against Burn? I do, and I find 1 Pharaoh + 2 Gnaw to be enough against them. Pharaoh is a 0-mana way to destroy their repeatable damage sources while you spend turns 1-2 setting up. For Void: I think Memory's Journey is what you'd want if you're playing a 1-of grave hate card. There's also Bojuka Bog which you can Loam back if you need something with more punch.
Yeah, I think 2 Gnaw + 1 Pharaoh is better than 3 Gnaw. Adding too many 3 mana spells makes the deck very clunky. If I'm going to mill two of my SB cards by turn 3 I'd rather mill Gnaw + Pharaoh than 2 Gnaw.
If you have free slots in the SB I'd recommend just maxing the number of copies of non-flashback cards, i.e. Thoughtseize.
RG Tron is easier if you have Bridges in your deck - if they tap out to wipe your board with a non-Ugin card, you'll just hit back with 3+ Zombies. You can also Darkblast/Gargadon sac your Bloodghasts with Bridge in the graveyard to increase pressure.
The thing is, there is no universally agreed way to build the deck at the moment, so some builds may find certain matchups more difficult than others. I have been tracking match results for different builds in the last spoilered section of the primer in an attempt to get a better overall picture of the deck, and to pinpoint matchups which may differ based on build. For example, no matter what build you're on, generally the 1-for-1 fair decks are good matchups and the spell-based combo decks are bad matchups. My personal experience playing the deck (enabler-heavy and max Loam builds) agrees with this.
If you'd like, you could contribute to the data collection project by posting your decklist and the exact results of each match, i.e. 2-0, 2-1, 0-2, or 1-2. Thanks!
edit: daviusminimus: I don't like 1-of Leylines in the SB. For Vitality: do you side in Pharaoh against Burn? I do, and I find 1 Pharaoh + 2 Gnaw to be enough against them. Pharaoh is a 0-mana way to destroy their repeatable damage sources while you spend turns 1-2 setting up. For Void: I think Memory's Journey is what you'd want if you're playing a 1-of grave hate card. There's also Bojuka Bog which you can Loam back if you need something with more punch.
I like to be very consistent. That is why I play 5 two mana enabler. I really like them because you just start even without dredger in grave. That's why I also play 19 lands. Had 18 in the tournament before but went back to 19. I felt safer with this configuration. The mix of a Rainbow and Fetch/Schock Base looks weird but works quite good for me. This way you don't take to much dmg because you have the choice to fetch a basic.
The first tournament I played was on thursday (our regular modern tournament in our local store) and I became second of 21, with a 4-1 finish. I played against: GB Infect 2-1, GR Nykthos Ramp 2-0, Abzan Company 1-2 (played very poorly mainly due to mulligan decisions), Jeskai Nahiri 2-0 and WB Eldrai Taxes 2-0. I won every game one, which is pretty impressive!
The second tournament was a bit bigger, it was 109 people.
I played against Kiki Chord 1-2, Tron 0-2, Naya Company 2-1, Monkey Grow 2-1, Affinity 2-0, Nahiri Jeskai 2-0 and Tron 0-2 again. All day Conflagrate was the MVP, really don't want to play without it anymore. It often just wipes the board and clears the way to win or just burns the face. Kiki Chord seems to be a 50/50 MU, aswell as Naya Company. I also think we are favoured against all blue Decks, except for Merfolk. Haven't played Merfolk yet, but I can imagine that this can be tough but also 50/50. Lost to my deck about 2-3 times in the tourney, a bit too often. I'd expect the deck to lose to itself about 1-2 times but not more, especially with my version.
I would change my Sideboard a bit, so that the Tron MU feels better. I'd cut -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Rally the Peasants (never wanted to have it), -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Natural State and add 4 QG or a 3/1 split with tec edge.
Maindeck felt really strong but of course a bit slower than the explosive versions.
Thanks for the report. I'd try dropping the Skaab and going back to a 3-color mana base. Loam works better with more fetches in the deck - you can build your hand size for Conflagrate more consistently with those in the deck, and the deck thinning effect means you're slightly more likely to mill relevant cards instead of lands.
I´ve almost bever had any trouble returning three lands with loam in non-fetch lists and the deck thinning is insanely marginal. As far as I'm concerned the reason you play fetches and duals over the rainbownlands is to preserve your lifetotal.
I have been tracking my games (I play on Xmage for now, will be buying it in paper today), and so far my grand total is 7 wins, 7 losses. Most of the decks I played against were odd decks, so the more I play against the better my data will be. The sideboard is kind of in the air for now, I am experimenting with different results.
I´ve almost bever had any trouble returning three lands with loam in non-fetch lists and the deck thinning is insanely marginal. As far as I'm concerned the reason you play fetches and duals over the rainbownlands is to preserve your lifetotal.
It can happen if your first dredge is Loam/Darkblast/Salvage instead of Imp/Grave-Troll. There's also the ability to return Bloodghasts on your opponent's turn.
The ability to retun bloodghasts on opponents turn is one of the best reasons to run a fetchland mana base. Also you can abuse bridge/garg for more zombies with a fetchland mana base for more creatures.
What do u think about 2-3 Pithing Needles in sideboard? It's good against scavenging ooze and most of atrifact grave hate. It also helps against tron. Is it good enough to use sideboard slots?
This version is highly consistent, and building up to a 6-8 damage Conflagrate is the play that wins most games. I played Scourge Devil in order to have a faster race G1, and they're cards that always come out G2. The big plus over Rally the Paesants is that they bring Prized Amalgam back. Additionally, it's uncounterable.
I dropped a lot of games, probably due to my lack of experience with the deck. Still, this version felt very good and consistent, it can perform some huge plays on turn 2 or 3 and I was able to play around hate most of the time. I'm wondering if I should play a single Steam Vents that would have been useful in some games, maybe as a 20th land.
Hey guys! Just got home from my weekly local Modern tournament and went 1-2-1, which is less than ideal. But overall I'm feeling better about how I played tonight compared to the previous two weeks (misplays everywhere, it was ridiculous). Also I played agains mill in round 3, which was very interesting Garnered a lot of attention in the store
Overall with dredge, since picking it up three weeks ago I'm 16-16 in games, which is decidedly average :/ This version of dredge is definitely much faster and more consistent than dredgevine, which I routinely played well with in the past, so I think it's just a matter of learning the deck inside and out at this point. The list is pretty tight right now but I'm thinking about replacing the 1-of darkblast in the main with the conflagrate from the sideboard, then cutting another card from the sideboard to make space for a conflagrate there. I was playing the craterhoof package in previous weeks and never made it work, but rally the peasants is much more achievable in the enabler-heavy and land-light version I run
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Modern
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
This new Haunted Dead card seems like a great substitute for Stitchwing Skaab, giving all the same benefits of triggering Amalgam, but helps to keep the deck in Jund colors.
First off, thank you izzetmage for creating the primer. I've been brewing and testing Dredge intensely for the last 2 month before finding this primer. Well written and informative. Glad to see so many players spotting the potential of dredge in competitive scene. This is my 1st post, please forgive me if I'm not posting/tagging correctly.
I've tried these versions of dredge:
1) Dredgevine
2) Zombie Infestation/Lotleth Troll Dredge
3) Bridge from Below Dredge
4) Unburial Rites Dredge
5) Raw Dredge (with Rally the Peasants)
and even U-based vs R-base, before settling for a 75 that performed most consistently. It's not far from what you guys have, so I'm gonna poat it some time later.
I was hoping to see more brewers thinking outside the box, other than just debating Bridge vs Unburial. Which ever side you're on, we all kinda realise that this deck's core is incomplete. Is it possible to look outside the short lists of Flashback/ Dredge/ Retrace/ Recover cards? Phantasmogarian was a good idea, not enough but in the right direction.
Although it's best to have only cards that work from the graveyard, we shouldn't rule out other options. If you have lightning axe or insolent neonate in your 75, see that these cards are also also dead if not in your opening hand. So why not other cards?
Lantern Dredge:
I've tested Raw dredge decks with Lantern of Insight, allowing you to pick up non-gy enablers and sideboard cards from top of library, which dredges harder and more frequent than just dredging 2-3 cards normally. Also it shuffles any graveyard hate away just in time. It works neat but its benefits are insufficient to justify the slots. I seek more power.
My current test deck runs 1 Rally, 1 Unburial, 1 Craterhoof, with only 4 rainbow lands (2 Life from the Loam), plus 3-4 copies of Springleaf Drum. The complaints of 4cmc being too high can be relooked. Don't just imagine, dig out from your Theros block and give it a try! Free summ-sick Narcomeoba and Bloodghasts that produce mana for enablers = good value! I thought of this when I realised that Blood Moon can cripple this deck easily, locking rainbow lands, fetches, duals. So does ghost quarters in many decks, and Jund sb-ing Fulminator Mage as extra blocker and blow up your fancy lands.
I don't think this is the missing piece we have been looking for, but I hope we can come up with new ideas that challenge the conventional ones.
Oh by the way, bridge from below is a trap. I did think it was the best version of dredge, even bought a playset, but it's really easy for veteran players to play around it completely. If you did well with it locally, I'm guessing that they probably were not familiar with BFB, for now...
Save the 4-8 slots (with Gargadon) for better dredge consistency is a better bet.
As you said, the biggest problem with this list is consistency - if you have spirit guides but no other enablers in an otherwise solid hand, you have to mulligan. Imo you can make your build a lot better by turning those 4 spirit guides into tome scours. Also you might like to add one or two life from the loams to make your bloodghasts even better
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
That still leaves plenty of room for further development, but I do feel like these 28, alongside 16-20 lands, are mandatory.
I am definitely interested in testing results! The more the better.
Edit - @daviusminimus, I'm not sure that I agree with your reasoning for Voice over Wager. If you already have 2 lands in play, discarding lands can't be that big of a deal. I feel like with a T1 Neonate/Looting/Scour and a T2 Wager you should be able to find a Loam that you can dredge on the next drawstep.
The thing is, there is no universally agreed way to build the deck at the moment, so some builds may find certain matchups more difficult than others. I have been tracking match results for different builds in the last spoilered section of the primer in an attempt to get a better overall picture of the deck, and to pinpoint matchups which may differ based on build. For example, no matter what build you're on, generally the 1-for-1 fair decks are good matchups and the spell-based combo decks are bad matchups. My personal experience playing the deck (enabler-heavy and max Loam builds) agrees with this.
If you'd like, you could contribute to the data collection project by posting your decklist and the exact results of each match, i.e. 2-0, 2-1, 0-2, or 1-2. Thanks!
edit: daviusminimus: I don't like 1-of Leylines in the SB. For Vitality: do you side in Pharaoh against Burn? I do, and I find 1 Pharaoh + 2 Gnaw to be enough against them. Pharaoh is a 0-mana way to destroy their repeatable damage sources while you spend turns 1-2 setting up. For Void: I think Memory's Journey is what you'd want if you're playing a 1-of grave hate card. There's also Bojuka Bog which you can Loam back if you need something with more punch.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
If you have free slots in the SB I'd recommend just maxing the number of copies of non-flashback cards, i.e. Thoughtseize.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
My Decklist was this:
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Life from the Loam
2 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Insolent Neonate
1 Wild Guess
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
2 Conflagrate
1 Stitchwing Skaab
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Mountain
2 Natural State
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Axe
4 Thoughtseize
1 Rally the Peasants
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Darkblast
I like to be very consistent. That is why I play 5 two mana enabler. I really like them because you just start even without dredger in grave. That's why I also play 19 lands. Had 18 in the tournament before but went back to 19. I felt safer with this configuration. The mix of a Rainbow and Fetch/Schock Base looks weird but works quite good for me. This way you don't take to much dmg because you have the choice to fetch a basic.
The first tournament I played was on thursday (our regular modern tournament in our local store) and I became second of 21, with a 4-1 finish. I played against: GB Infect 2-1, GR Nykthos Ramp 2-0, Abzan Company 1-2 (played very poorly mainly due to mulligan decisions), Jeskai Nahiri 2-0 and WB Eldrai Taxes 2-0. I won every game one, which is pretty impressive!
The second tournament was a bit bigger, it was 109 people.
I played against Kiki Chord 1-2, Tron 0-2, Naya Company 2-1, Monkey Grow 2-1, Affinity 2-0, Nahiri Jeskai 2-0 and Tron 0-2 again. All day Conflagrate was the MVP, really don't want to play without it anymore. It often just wipes the board and clears the way to win or just burns the face. Kiki Chord seems to be a 50/50 MU, aswell as Naya Company. I also think we are favoured against all blue Decks, except for Merfolk. Haven't played Merfolk yet, but I can imagine that this can be tough but also 50/50. Lost to my deck about 2-3 times in the tourney, a bit too often. I'd expect the deck to lose to itself about 1-2 times but not more, especially with my version.
I would change my Sideboard a bit, so that the Tron MU feels better. I'd cut -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Rally the Peasants (never wanted to have it), -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Natural State and add 4 QG or a 3/1 split with tec edge.
Maindeck felt really strong but of course a bit slower than the explosive versions.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
3x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
3x Dakmor Salvage
1x Shivan Reef
1x Mountain
Enablers:
4x Faithless Looting
4x Insolent Neonate
3x Burning inquiry
4x Bloodghast
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Stitchwing Skaab
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
Dredgers:
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Darkblast
2x Life from the Loam
1x Rally the Peasants
4x Bridge from Below
2x Conflagrate
I have been tracking my games (I play on Xmage for now, will be buying it in paper today), and so far my grand total is 7 wins, 7 losses. Most of the decks I played against were odd decks, so the more I play against the better my data will be. The sideboard is kind of in the air for now, I am experimenting with different results.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
2 Scourge Devil
3 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Flame Jab
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Memory's Journey
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Darkblast
This version is highly consistent, and building up to a 6-8 damage Conflagrate is the play that wins most games. I played Scourge Devil in order to have a faster race G1, and they're cards that always come out G2. The big plus over Rally the Paesants is that they bring Prized Amalgam back. Additionally, it's uncounterable.
I dropped a lot of games, probably due to my lack of experience with the deck. Still, this version felt very good and consistent, it can perform some huge plays on turn 2 or 3 and I was able to play around hate most of the time. I'm wondering if I should play a single Steam Vents that would have been useful in some games, maybe as a 20th land.
In the primer on page 1.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
My current list, very similar to iostream's list:
4x Bloodghast
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
2x Golgari Thug
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Narcomoeba
1x Phantasmagorian
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Stitchwing Skaab
Land (16)
4x City of Brass
1x Copperline Gorge
3x Dakmor Salvage
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Mana Confluence
1x Mountain
3x Burning Inquiry
4x Faithless Looting
2x Life from the Loam
4x Tome Scour
Instant (2)
1x Darkblast
1x Rally the Peasants
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Conflagrate
3x Gnaw to the Bone
3x Nature's Claim
3x Thoughtseize
2x Vengeful Pharaoh
Overall with dredge, since picking it up three weeks ago I'm 16-16 in games, which is decidedly average :/ This version of dredge is definitely much faster and more consistent than dredgevine, which I routinely played well with in the past, so I think it's just a matter of learning the deck inside and out at this point. The list is pretty tight right now but I'm thinking about replacing the 1-of darkblast in the main with the conflagrate from the sideboard, then cutting another card from the sideboard to make space for a conflagrate there. I was playing the craterhoof package in previous weeks and never made it work, but rally the peasants is much more achievable in the enabler-heavy and land-light version I run
Dredge (117-70 W/L in games) (Pre-GGT ban: 103-70 W/L in games)
Take a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4qfxil/haunted_dead_and_ingenious_skaab/
I've tried these versions of dredge:
1) Dredgevine
2) Zombie Infestation/Lotleth Troll Dredge
3) Bridge from Below Dredge
4) Unburial Rites Dredge
5) Raw Dredge (with Rally the Peasants)
and even U-based vs R-base, before settling for a 75 that performed most consistently. It's not far from what you guys have, so I'm gonna poat it some time later.
I was hoping to see more brewers thinking outside the box, other than just debating Bridge vs Unburial. Which ever side you're on, we all kinda realise that this deck's core is incomplete. Is it possible to look outside the short lists of Flashback/ Dredge/ Retrace/ Recover cards? Phantasmogarian was a good idea, not enough but in the right direction.
Although it's best to have only cards that work from the graveyard, we shouldn't rule out other options. If you have lightning axe or insolent neonate in your 75, see that these cards are also also dead if not in your opening hand. So why not other cards?
Lantern Dredge:
I've tested Raw dredge decks with Lantern of Insight, allowing you to pick up non-gy enablers and sideboard cards from top of library, which dredges harder and more frequent than just dredging 2-3 cards normally. Also it shuffles any graveyard hate away just in time. It works neat but its benefits are insufficient to justify the slots. I seek more power.
My current test deck runs 1 Rally, 1 Unburial, 1 Craterhoof, with only 4 rainbow lands (2 Life from the Loam), plus 3-4 copies of Springleaf Drum. The complaints of 4cmc being too high can be relooked. Don't just imagine, dig out from your Theros block and give it a try! Free summ-sick Narcomeoba and Bloodghasts that produce mana for enablers = good value! I thought of this when I realised that Blood Moon can cripple this deck easily, locking rainbow lands, fetches, duals. So does ghost quarters in many decks, and Jund sb-ing Fulminator Mage as extra blocker and blow up your fancy lands.
I don't think this is the missing piece we have been looking for, but I hope we can come up with new ideas that challenge the conventional ones.
Save the 4-8 slots (with Gargadon) for better dredge consistency is a better bet.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos