I don't think Thoughtseize is necessary in the SB. Between Lightning Axe and Nature's Claim/Natural State, you have most permanent types covered. Of course that leaves instants and sorceries, but the rest of your SB can attack those decks in a different way - against Ad Nauseam you use Claim/State/Grudge, against Scapeshift you have Gnaw to the Bone, and you can spare a SB slot for Memory's Journey or Bojuka Bog against the graveyard decks (those aren't a large % of the meta, so a single slot is fine). RIP is not actually a popular choice for the Nahiri decks at the moment, so all you have to focus on is Anger of the Gods.
The question, really, is whether you want 3 Claim/State or some combination of Thoughtseize+Abrupt Decay. I choose to stick with the artifact/enchantment removal because it's easier on the mana base (Lee's list, which needs green early for Loam).
I have gone 22-3 in the current MTGO Modern Competitive League with the following list. Traverse the Ulvenwald makes this deck so much more consistent (no more issues keeping one landers) while also adding a nice tutor effect to keep things going through tutoring for neonate. Traverse also gives you a nice tutor package out of the board to deal with annoying grafdiggers. I've tried the 4 color version, but the manabase is pretty dicey in this nacatl heavy meta. Deck does have issues vs. infect, hence the heavy 1CC kill spell sb.
Plus Matchups:
* Delver/Living End/Tron/Scapeshift/Merfolk/Affinity/Generic UWR/UWB/et al. Control
Average Matchups:
* Eldrazi/Tokens/Zoo (You NEED to go first).
Needs Work:
* Infect/Burn
Axe: In vs Aggro/Infect/Eldrazi
Gnaw: In vs Aggro/Tokens
Darkblast: In vs Infect/Eldrazi
Abrupt: In vs Aggro/Anything packing graff/relic
Grudge: In vs Affinity/Anything packing graff/relic
Crime: In vs Delver/Tron/Combo
Necroplasm: In vs Tokens/Aggro as a repeating ***
Bog: In vs Delver/Mirror/Snapcaster Abuse
GQ: In vs Infect/Tron
Ingot Chewer: In vs Affinty/Anything packing graff/relic
How do you enable delirium with it? You have 24 creatures, 16 sorceries, 17 lands and 3 instants.. It just seems inconsistent. How do you turn on traverse?
Pretty easy with Dredge TBH. Typically its used to fetch a second land on those infamous one land hands. That said, I have been testing a slightly more "comboey" version using Mishra's baubles & sword of the meek to make it easier to activate. I've played dredge since the original deck in 07 as well as the current legacy and vintage iterations of the deck.
General thoughts on the 57-60th slots (I feel its really between Ulvenwald, Voice, and Infestation):
* 4 Ulvenwald: Pros - Keep 1 landers/neonate search/ingot chewer search/blood ghast search, Cons - Delirium reliability
* 3 Tormented Voice, 1 Hills: Pros - Good 13-15th enabler, Discard Outlet; Cons - Not particularly explosive without other cards (this is no tolarian winds).
* 3 Zombie Infestation, 1 Hills: Pros - Better Grinder Game, Good Alternate Outlet vs Hate/Bad Draws; Strong Loam synergy; Cons - Doesn't allow for big explosive turn 2 "dredge" draws, Hurts Conflagrate
* 3 Goblin Lore, 1 Hills: Pros - Super Explosive with dredge; Cons - Requires other cards to work
* 3 Tybalt, 1 Hills: Pros - Reusable, Gives late game reach; Cons - Requires other cards to work
* 4 Street Wraith&/or Gitaxian Probe: Pros - Allows for strong turn 1-2 plays; Cons - Requires other cards to work, Lifeloss isn't negligible
* 4 Serum Powder: Pros - Avoids mulligan problems; Cons - Getting rid of key combo parts
I have gone 22-3 in the current MTGO Modern Competitive League with the following list. Traverse the Ulvenwald makes this deck so much more consistent (no more issues keeping one landers) while also adding a nice tutor effect to keep things going through tutoring for neonate. Traverse also gives you a nice tutor package out of the board to deal with annoying grafdiggers. I've tried the 4 color version, but the manabase is pretty dicey in this nacatl heavy meta. Deck does have issues vs. infect, hence the heavy 1CC kill spell sb.
Plus Matchups:
* Delver/Living End/Tron/Scapeshift/Merfolk/Affinity/Generic UWR/UWB/et al. Control
Average Matchups:
* Eldrazi/Tokens/Zoo (You NEED to go first).
Needs Work:
* Infect/Burn
Axe: In vs Aggro/Infect/Eldrazi
Gnaw: In vs Aggro/Tokens
Darkblast: In vs Infect/Eldrazi
Abrupt: In vs Aggro/Anything packing graff/relic
Grudge: In vs Affinity/Anything packing graff/relic
Crime: In vs Delver/Tron/Combo
Necroplasm: In vs Tokens/Aggro as a repeating ***
Bog: In vs Delver/Mirror/Snapcaster Abuse
GQ: In vs Infect/Tron
Ingot Chewer: In vs Affinty/Anything packing graff/relic
Gonna give a try to your version. Looks spicy and after storm, G eldrazy tron, burn and GBx, im looking for something spicy.
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Playing modern: all BGx, storm, burn, green eldrazi, dredge.
Just finished another 4-1 run through the modern league
Match 1 - Tasgur Delver: 2-0. This matchup is so easy its ridiculous
Match 2 - BW Tokens: 2-1. Necroplasm op
Match 3 - Affinity: 2-0. Conflagrate + darkblast + ancient grudge makes it REALLY hard to lose.
Match 4 - Tasgur Delver: 2-1. Clocked me out G2 with a early tasgur + multiple tsiezes on draw spells. Got a crazy neonate + double inquiry hand game 3
Match 5 - Eldrazi: 1-2. He went turn 2 thoughtknot, turn 3 Reality G1 vs a slow hand. I won g2 with a strong hand, but g3 mulled to 5 and got crushed my turn 1 grafdiggers into turn 2 thoughtknot.
Final Thoughts: Traverse will probably get replaced by Zombie Infestation as Z. Infest really punishes slow hate heavy hands through swamping your opponent with zombies, while also having nice synergy with loam, particularly in the face of grafdiggers. Moreover, the deck REALLY needs a strong turn 2 play when you haven't drawn looting/inquiry/neonate and infestation fits the bill. Contrariwise, Infestation lacks synergy with conflagrate which is one of the strongest cards in the deck imho. (i.e. Turn 4 dredge up loam, fill up hand, play a land for ghasts, then conflagrate all of their blockers away/put them below 11 life to swing ftw).
Also considering 3 Chrome Mox and 16 land to speed things up and scourge devils over rally for amalgam redundancy.
No offence but I think your list is just to cute flcl2222 14 red sources of mana is not a great idea IMO, I would ditch those chrome mox because essentially they are just a 1 mana of any color one time and put in more land. Ive been playing dredge a lot lately including some bigger tournaments and you really want 2 red sources in your opening hand to perform at your best. Zombie Infest is slow and once again you need 2 mana to get it rolling and is useless with conflags, it could be a good sideboard option. Westvale abbey? why? Personally 12 enablers is a bit low ive found to I run 15 and it gets the dredge train rolling. The core of dredge is just great right now so any list that has the core is gonna put up results its all about making what we do better or getting around hate. scourge devil I like and I think I will test that out that seems to be a very interesting addition instead of rally. I dislike how it is a sorcery instead of instant but once dredge gets more play everyone will be looking for rally in the yard so its surprise factor will be gone.
Am I in the wrong forum? Did something change or isn't Chrome Mox banned? Westvale Abby seems like a waste in the SB slot. You'll rarely get to that 5 mana point, and the only way you can is through Life from the Loam, which is usually gone thanks to graveyard hate post board.
I've been working on something real meat and potatoes. I hate giving up Vengevine and Bridge from Below. I haven't, but right now I just wanted a dredge deck with no qualifiers and plenty of velocity. It's not perfect, but I've been playtesting against Infect, Zur, Jund, Jeskai, Naya, and Eldrazi and Taxes and it's been doing well game 1.
Kind of functions like an Affinity deck, overwhelming the board state with the Rally kill. If you play Rally, Hedron Crab is better than stuff like Burning Inquiry, Dream Twist, and Thought Scour just because it benefits from Rally. Haunted Dead is so much better than Stitchwing Skaab. It does more damage with Rally and gives you an immediate blocker in tight situations. The sideboard's a mess, but Hedron Crab + Surgical Extraction is good against combo decks. Thoughts?
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Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Hat tip to Ktkenshix for unlocking my old account. I will do a set of 10 matches in the competitive modo league (5 with infest/5 with wager) and report back.
Pretty easy with Dredge TBH. Typically its used to fetch a second land on those infamous one land hands. That said, I have been testing a slightly more "comboey" version using Mishra's baubles & sword of the meek to make it easier to activate. I've played dredge since the original deck in 07 as well as the current legacy and vintage iterations of the deck.
General thoughts on the 57-60th slots (I feel its really between Ulvenwald, Voice, and Infestation):
Using this card makes no sense at all. Assuming you nail the delirium early, which is close to improbable, you can get a land (basic land type, not even a useful land), or a ...what... neonate? Pointless. You're playing 4 non-lands that get you a land for 1 green mana, just play 4 more lands.. It doesn't cost anything to play 4 more lands.
Davius I read your whole report and I truly think 3 conflagrates in your deck would have won you at least two of those matches outright it is an all star against burn, affinity, even Tron because a big 10dmg conflag can really get the match over fast, you con potentially 10 dmg conflag on turn 4 so it does happen pretty early. I run three if in a very similar deck list to yours, they never disappoint.
I agree with Tucker, I think Conflagrate is a mainstay in these decks because it seals a lot of games as well as clears up the enemy board for alpha strikes. I don't know if running 3 is needed, but at least 2 is what I think is the minimum.
The real question is always Inquiry versus Tormenting Voice. It may end up being a personal preference for players. I have ran Inquiry and it has often not worked for me as well as Voice, but I think every player's mileage may vary.
Did a run through using 18 land and 3 infestation. (4-1)
The card really has incredible synergy with the deck Except conflagrate. It really improves the death shadow zoo matchup while also providing a non dredge intensive potential turn 3 win.
Will report on 18 land and 3 tormenting voice. I think we are close guys.
As for inquiry, I think it's a non negotiable 4x. The card wins you the game if you have a dredge.
I actually lost a 3k placing in the money against suicide zoo with dredge a few weeks ago, im not sold on infestation can you run through how it works for you? especially the t3 win? I run 3 burning inq and 4 tormenting voice and love both cards lol. I used to run the garg and bridge from below version and I think they are out for now Bridge is an awesome card but the current meta we want to be killing blockers/threats, if we could fit leyline of the void in main, bridge might be amazing. ( I doubt we will ever fit Leyline in main)
Match 1 - ESPER Control - 2-0. G1 Neonate into double inquiry, G2 stuck a turn 2 infestation, then turn 3 loam+raven's crime to cripple hand.
Match 2 - Mirror - 0-2. G1 lost to looting -> inquiry -> Neonate. G2 kept a slow hand and got clocked out with a nice T4 rally "topdredge"
Match 3 - JUND - 2-0. G1 stuck an infestation, then lootinged a GGT to win. G2 was a long grinder, but ghost quarter+loam+raven's crime won me the game.
Match 4 - Delver - 2-0. Just TOOO fast
Match 5 - Merfolk - 2-0. " "
There was one situation where tormented/goblin lore would've been better than infestation, but the card is just vicious with loam. I'm also testing the 1G destroy all enchantments card in the side as I'm starting to see more LOTV.
As for Haunted dead, I think the card definitely has a place in the deck and synergizes very well with sword of the meek.
MORE important note - what do you guys do when you get a say loam/2 land/GGT/Stinkweed/Narco hand? It doesn't have any immediate enablers, but would be extremely good if you drew into one. I tend to mull.
The question, really, is whether you want 3 Claim/State or some combination of Thoughtseize+Abrupt Decay. I choose to stick with the artifact/enchantment removal because it's easier on the mana base (Lee's list, which needs green early for Loam).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Plus Matchups:
* Delver/Living End/Tron/Scapeshift/Merfolk/Affinity/Generic UWR/UWB/et al. Control
Average Matchups:
* Eldrazi/Tokens/Zoo (You NEED to go first).
Needs Work:
* Infect/Burn
4 Priceless Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Faithless Looting
2 Conflagrate
2 Rally the Peasants
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Blood Crypt
3 Lightning Axe
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Raven's Crime
1 Necroplasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ingot Chewer
Axe: In vs Aggro/Infect/Eldrazi
Gnaw: In vs Aggro/Tokens
Darkblast: In vs Infect/Eldrazi
Abrupt: In vs Aggro/Anything packing graff/relic
Grudge: In vs Affinity/Anything packing graff/relic
Crime: In vs Delver/Tron/Combo
Necroplasm: In vs Tokens/Aggro as a repeating ***
Bog: In vs Delver/Mirror/Snapcaster Abuse
GQ: In vs Infect/Tron
Ingot Chewer: In vs Affinty/Anything packing graff/relic
General thoughts on the 57-60th slots (I feel its really between Ulvenwald, Voice, and Infestation):
* 4 Ulvenwald: Pros - Keep 1 landers/neonate search/ingot chewer search/blood ghast search, Cons - Delirium reliability
* 3 Tormented Voice, 1 Hills: Pros - Good 13-15th enabler, Discard Outlet; Cons - Not particularly explosive without other cards (this is no tolarian winds).
* 3 Zombie Infestation, 1 Hills: Pros - Better Grinder Game, Good Alternate Outlet vs Hate/Bad Draws; Strong Loam synergy; Cons - Doesn't allow for big explosive turn 2 "dredge" draws, Hurts Conflagrate
* 3 Goblin Lore, 1 Hills: Pros - Super Explosive with dredge; Cons - Requires other cards to work
* 3 Tybalt, 1 Hills: Pros - Reusable, Gives late game reach; Cons - Requires other cards to work
* 4 Street Wraith&/or Gitaxian Probe: Pros - Allows for strong turn 1-2 plays; Cons - Requires other cards to work, Lifeloss isn't negligible
* 4 Serum Powder: Pros - Avoids mulligan problems; Cons - Getting rid of key combo parts
I am using a single for that purpose.
Gonna give a try to your version. Looks spicy and after storm, G eldrazy tron, burn and GBx, im looking for something spicy.
Match 1 - Tasgur Delver: 2-0. This matchup is so easy its ridiculous
Match 2 - BW Tokens: 2-1. Necroplasm op
Match 3 - Affinity: 2-0. Conflagrate + darkblast + ancient grudge makes it REALLY hard to lose.
Match 4 - Tasgur Delver: 2-1. Clocked me out G2 with a early tasgur + multiple tsiezes on draw spells. Got a crazy neonate + double inquiry hand game 3
Match 5 - Eldrazi: 1-2. He went turn 2 thoughtknot, turn 3 Reality G1 vs a slow hand. I won g2 with a strong hand, but g3 mulled to 5 and got crushed my turn 1 grafdiggers into turn 2 thoughtknot.
Final Thoughts: Traverse will probably get replaced by Zombie Infestation as Z. Infest really punishes slow hate heavy hands through swamping your opponent with zombies, while also having nice synergy with loam, particularly in the face of grafdiggers. Moreover, the deck REALLY needs a strong turn 2 play when you haven't drawn looting/inquiry/neonate and infestation fits the bill. Contrariwise, Infestation lacks synergy with conflagrate which is one of the strongest cards in the deck imho. (i.e. Turn 4 dredge up loam, fill up hand, play a land for ghasts, then conflagrate all of their blockers away/put them below 11 life to swing ftw).
Also considering 3 Chrome Mox and 16 land to speed things up and scourge devils over rally for amalgam redundancy.
4 Priceless Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Zombie Infestation
3 Chrome Mox
4 Faithless Looting
2 Conflagrate
1 Scourge Devil
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
3 Lightning Axe
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Raven's Crime
1 Necroplasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Westvale Abbey
I've been working on something real meat and potatoes. I hate giving up Vengevine and Bridge from Below. I haven't, but right now I just wanted a dredge deck with no qualifiers and plenty of velocity. It's not perfect, but I've been playtesting against Infect, Zur, Jund, Jeskai, Naya, and Eldrazi and Taxes and it's been doing well game 1.
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Drownyard Temple
2 Dakmor Salvage
Creature
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Hedron Crab
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Haunted Dead
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Darkblast
2 Rally the Peasants
Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
1 Conflagrate
1 Noxious Revival
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystic Retrieval
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Shriekmaw
Kind of functions like an Affinity deck, overwhelming the board state with the Rally kill. If you play Rally, Hedron Crab is better than stuff like Burning Inquiry, Dream Twist, and Thought Scour just because it benefits from Rally. Haunted Dead is so much better than Stitchwing Skaab. It does more damage with Rally and gives you an immediate blocker in tight situations. The sideboard's a mess, but Hedron Crab + Surgical Extraction is good against combo decks. Thoughts?
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
I'll do more testing with Zombie infestation and report back. I have been using Tormented Voice as enablers 13-15, but it's been pretty underwhelming.
As for Westvale, It's spectacular vs. decks like BW tokens or eldrazi. Most decks tend to run graffdiggers, which loam+abbey couldn't careless about.
Using this card makes no sense at all. Assuming you nail the delirium early, which is close to improbable, you can get a land (basic land type, not even a useful land), or a ...what... neonate? Pointless. You're playing 4 non-lands that get you a land for 1 green mana, just play 4 more lands.. It doesn't cost anything to play 4 more lands.
The real question is always Inquiry versus Tormenting Voice. It may end up being a personal preference for players. I have ran Inquiry and it has often not worked for me as well as Voice, but I think every player's mileage may vary.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
The card really has incredible synergy with the deck Except conflagrate. It really improves the death shadow zoo matchup while also providing a non dredge intensive potential turn 3 win.
Will report on 18 land and 3 tormenting voice. I think we are close guys.
As for inquiry, I think it's a non negotiable 4x. The card wins you the game if you have a dredge.
Match 1 - ESPER Control - 2-0. G1 Neonate into double inquiry, G2 stuck a turn 2 infestation, then turn 3 loam+raven's crime to cripple hand.
Match 2 - Mirror - 0-2. G1 lost to looting -> inquiry -> Neonate. G2 kept a slow hand and got clocked out with a nice T4 rally "topdredge"
Match 3 - JUND - 2-0. G1 stuck an infestation, then lootinged a GGT to win. G2 was a long grinder, but ghost quarter+loam+raven's crime won me the game.
Match 4 - Delver - 2-0. Just TOOO fast
Match 5 - Merfolk - 2-0. " "
4 Priceless Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Burning Inquiry
3 Zombie Infestation
4 Faithless Looting
2 Conflagrate
2 Scourge Devil
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
3 Lightning Axe
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Raven's Crime
1 Necroplasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Golgari Charm
There was one situation where tormented/goblin lore would've been better than infestation, but the card is just vicious with loam. I'm also testing the 1G destroy all enchantments card in the side as I'm starting to see more LOTV.
As for Haunted dead, I think the card definitely has a place in the deck and synergizes very well with sword of the meek.
MORE important note - what do you guys do when you get a say loam/2 land/GGT/Stinkweed/Narco hand? It doesn't have any immediate enablers, but would be extremely good if you drew into one. I tend to mull.