Please don't take this article seriously: 2 Goyfs only, no Lili of the Veil...come on Ben.
Oh, I think it was either satire or him really upset.
I think there was some real truth to it. Obviously 2x Goyf and EE with BBE is a huge no no.
But...I think something creative is going to happen with Jace and BBE.
Did you guys see Saffron play Miracles last night? He played so tight, and the deck looked legit.
Why are people hung up on only 2x Tarmogoyf on that list? There are NO Liliana of the Veil! The lists are not serious, but I believe the sentiment is, because I share it.
I was building Mardu because it looked like a fun deck, not anymore. I was running Abzan and Jeskai Queller, not anymore. Ponza will be changed to Bloody Ponza, and Abzan will become Bloody Jund, because it makes no sense not to run 3-4x BBE in those colors. E&T and Merfolks might live, if they are fast and disruptive enough, but I have my doubts. I am pessimistic about diversity in modern from now on.
Anyway, here is not the place to complain. Just my 2 cents about the article.
So I played some mtg online today with bbe jund. BBE is a sick card that can pull you even if you're behind or put you way up. Bbe into goyf, or lotv, or kolaghans command (all of which I hit today) were huge changes in the game. I'm not sure it should have ever been banned but it's a potent card.
Testing with some new stuff today I found dire fleet daredevil was fun as hell. I stole several removal spells, and exiled a couple lingering souls. The first strike is relevant too. I'm gonna continue testing.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Dire Fleet is way too condition, this does not belong anywhere in Jund, this is purely a sideboard card in some other deck if it does become a modern staple
I tried Grim Flayers in the mainboard in place of Scavenging Ooze and it didn't do awful, but I feel like it wasn't great either. Most of the time I had it I could of played Scavenging Ooze and made him the same size (or bigger) while gaining some life - which is pretty relevant because over the course of 1 league I flipped a Bloodbraid Elf off Dark Confidant twice. I'm also going to test out 2 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard and a full 4 Fulminator Mage. Everytime I boarded it in and saw it, I was happy to see it. It definitely helped me out a ton in the few mathces I played today so going to stick with 4 for now. Grim Lavamancer seemed pretty decent and I want to keep one, but I dropped the 2nd one in place of a Jund Charm to test out. I thought I wanted 2 Grim Lavamancers but a lot of the time early on I didn't have a graveyard to fuel it with, and shrinking my own graveyard sucks when I draw a Tarmogoyf later on. The last thing I'm going to test it 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition instead of a 3/3 split. I had Inquisition of Kozilek whiff a shocking number of times. It could just be bad luck, but not being able to take anything from their hand feels awful.
I think Reid's choices actually make a lot of sense. The logic is just that Jund with BBE is inherently good against Jace. Obviously, BBE and Bolt are effective against Jace, but more to the point, we are relatively threat-dense, so we can naturally pressure planeswalkers well. We don't have to play weird answers like Dreadbore. So what are we supposed to be afraid of? Answer: decks that are trying to go under 4-drops. That means Burn, traditional Zoo, and other true aggro decks that hit hard and fast. Therefore, 4 IOK, 0 Thoughtseize.
I actually think Reid's list is a little conservative! With BBE, I want my cascades to be really great. The Abrupt Decay in his maindeck feels like it should just be a second Maelstrom Pulse, and I'd cut the Fatal Push and maybe even the third Ooze for 2 Collective Brutality. With 25 land, you can make moves like this.
Speaking of land counts, I do not know why so many people here want to cut land. With 4 BBE and 0 DRS, 25 seems like the bare minimum and I'm tempted to run 26.
I think Reid's choices actually make a lot of sense. The logic is just that Jund with BBE is inherently good against Jace. Obviously, BBE and Bolt are effective against Jace, but more to the point, we are relatively threat-dense, so we can naturally pressure planeswalkers well. We don't have to play weird answers like Dreadbore. So what are we supposed to be afraid of? Answer: decks that are trying to go under 4-drops. That means Burn, traditional Zoo, and other true aggro decks that hit hard and fast. Therefore, 4 IOK, 0 Thoughtseize.
I actually think Reid's list is a little conservative! With BBE, I want my cascades to be really great. The Abrupt Decay in his maindeck feels like it should just be a second Maelstrom Pulse, and I'd cut the Fatal Push and maybe even the third Ooze for 2 Collective Brutality. With 25 land, you can make moves like this.
Speaking of land counts, I do not know why so many people here want to cut land. With 4 BBE and 0 DRS, 25 seems like the bare minimum and I'm tempted to run 26.
And without Thoughtseize how do you plan to fight the Eldrazi Tron/Tron decks? I played against Eldrazi Tron earlier and just got destroyed. I know it's a bad matchup, but cutting one of our good cards like Thoughtseize just seems wrong. Reid is obviously a master Midrange player, so I don't doubt his ideas - but I'd rather wait to see what happens in a month than drop something that has been a staple of the deck for ages.
I also think 24 lands has been good to me, and 25 may even be the right choice. 26 seems like way to many for me though. Our curve isn't that high, and I'm personally only running 3 Bloodbraid Elf at the moment.
I think Reid's choices actually make a lot of sense. The logic is just that Jund with BBE is inherently good against Jace. Obviously, BBE and Bolt are effective against Jace, but more to the point, we are relatively threat-dense, so we can naturally pressure planeswalkers well. We don't have to play weird answers like Dreadbore. So what are we supposed to be afraid of? Answer: decks that are trying to go under 4-drops. That means Burn, traditional Zoo, and other true aggro decks that hit hard and fast. Therefore, 4 IOK, 0 Thoughtseize.
I actually think Reid's list is a little conservative! With BBE, I want my cascades to be really great. The Abrupt Decay in his maindeck feels like it should just be a second Maelstrom Pulse, and I'd cut the Fatal Push and maybe even the third Ooze for 2 Collective Brutality. With 25 land, you can make moves like this.
Speaking of land counts, I do not know why so many people here want to cut land. With 4 BBE and 0 DRS, 25 seems like the bare minimum and I'm tempted to run 26.
And without Thoughtseize how do you plan to fight the Eldrazi Tron/Tron decks? I played against Eldrazi Tron earlier and just got destroyed. I know it's a bad matchup, but cutting one of our good cards like Thoughtseize just seems wrong. Reid is obviously a master Midrange player, so I don't doubt his ideas - but I'd rather wait to see what happens in a month than drop something that has been a staple of the deck for ages.
I also think 24 lands has been good to me, and 25 may even be the right choice. 26 seems like way to many for me though. Our curve isn't that high, and I'm personally only running 3 Bloodbraid Elf at the moment.
My plan against Tron decks is to scoop game 1. For one, I don't think Thoughtseize over IoK is anywhere close to enough to turn the game 1 matchup around, but more importantly, Tron is not well positioned when the format is trying to speed up. They might crush us and they might even do well against the Jace decks, but the rest of the field will be dominated by fast aggro and fast combo trying to get under BBE and Jace, and these are Tron's absolute worst matchups. My hope is that Tron pilots just get discouraged and play something else. I should note here that this is also LSV's opinion, see this video: https://youtu.be/So5bsQS83H0?t=49s
To be clear: I think we should still try to have some sort of postboard plan versus Tron, Sideboard Thoughtseizes or Duresses actually seem great right now. All I'm saying is that tuning the maindeck for it is feels very wrong to me.
On the other side of the coin, playing IoK over Thoughtseize actually makes a tremendous difference in the aggro matchups. As I said, the format is speeding up, so I think this is where we should try to find edges. This is another argument in favor of my suggestion of maindeck Brutality, by the way.
25 lands is pretty solid for 4 BBE, but 26? You're gonna lose a boatload of games to flooding out. 24 already floods out so often as is, but I can see 25 as being mathematically consistent enough for hitting untapped 4th land on t4 for bloodbraid.
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Canadian East Coast grinder
I live for fair Magic.
I also find Reid's approach to be super conservative, but he is THE Master so I will not judge anything.. Maybe we have been forgetting that there will be other decks also around than the ones running Jace.
I am personally very eager to warp my deck around BBE at the moment, not sure if this will be the correct way in the end.
I am playing in a meta that is filled with token strategies (Abzan,Mardu,BW,Esper) and am a bit worried that will BBE be able to run over those decks.
I have been toying with the same idea that some guys have also posted in this thread: splashing white for Lingering Souls.
With singleton Godless Shrine and BBE Cascade there should be good chances to get it working. And for worst case scenarios we have Lili and Collective brutality to discard it for flashback:
Cutting Push and Terminate, struggle to dealing with manlands, especially Raging Ravine(already grown to 4/4) in the mirror. I'll probably go back to Terminate from Dreadbore going forward but I don't know. Post board I can board in Fulminator like against UW control but another problem emerges in the mirror.
In the mirror, I boarded out 3IoK and board in LtLH and 2Kitchen Finks. I could only cast one spell each turn because of too many 3drops. So I couldn't board in Fulminator. While maximizing Bloodbraid's power is important, be careful that how mana curve looks like post board when building sideboard.
Thanks to Bloodbraid, burn spells, manlands and putting pressure on the board, I didn't struggle to dealing with Jace. Treetop is more effective at killing Jace than Ravine, so 2-2split or more Treetop seems worth consideration.
Given that there are still many fast aggro decks, I think 4Thoughtseize is painful.
I'm satisfied with 24 lands but maybe 25 is the right number(too many 3drops and high curve). But I don't know what to cut.
Against UW Miracle, my creatures don't go to the graveyard due to Path/Terminus. So another LtLH and Kitchen Finks were not that good. Against other blue control, I want to board in LtLH, Kitchen Finks, Thrun, Fulminator and Brutality but I don't know what to board out other than 2Push and 4Bolt. Also I think 1-2Bolt is OK to deal with Jace and finish the opponent. Maybe I'm overboarding...
I’m glad if these impressions are helpful for you. And want to see your thoughts!
I played a bunch of games tonight and 24 lands felt fine. I really didn't have BBE stuck in my hand.
This deck feels significantly faster with BBE and 4x bolts again. It plays totally different from Abzan, more so than in 2015.
I tried 4x fulminators maindeck with 3x K Command and 1x Last Hope. I don't think the land loop is worth it unless Tron is all over the place.
I did warp my deck quite a bit to experiment with BBE Jund.
Bob is definitely keeping me on the edge now. Jund is definitely not durdley anymore, this deck turns the corner really fast
I really have to see how I'm going to make this deck. 3x K Command felt fantastic. I didn't find myself missing Scooze, but again, this was purely an experimental list. I don't feel like posting it because it's not worth testing.
3x K Command was amazing---like, this looks and feels as good as K Commands did when Grixis Control was a deck in 2016. I really think Jund's final lists will run 3 copies or play 2x K Command and 1x Hope.
After playing a bunch tonight, there's no way in hell less than 4x copies is right, she completely turbo charges this deck
Even when BBE whiffs, it means you got land and crap off the top of your deck, I was seeing 2x ofs more often thanks to her.
What do you think about running 2 Raging Ravine and 1 Treetop Village?
The amount of 3-4 drop bothers me a little so maybe move LtLH to SB and add Ooze/CB Main?
I've been playing Reid Duke's list, -1 Treetop Village, +1 Terminate, online tonight - no league yet because I'm a bit tired after work and don't feel that I have the concentration levels, but oh my goodness has BBE made Jund what I've always wanted it to be. So long I've been watching decks CoCoing or comboing me into oblivion, wishing BGx had something similar, and here she is!... flipping Goyfs, Lilis, K-commands, and CBs from the SB reaps havoc!...
btw yeh ok I'll keep the 1x Fatal Push and try to remember to play a fetch with BBE like the boss says
Oh, I think it was either satire or him really upset.
I think there was some real truth to it. Obviously 2x Goyf and EE with BBE is a huge no no.
But...I think something creative is going to happen with Jace and BBE.
Did you guys see Saffron play Miracles last night? He played so tight, and the deck looked legit.
Why are people hung up on only 2x Tarmogoyf on that list? There are NO Liliana of the Veil! The lists are not serious, but I believe the sentiment is, because I share it.
I was building Mardu because it looked like a fun deck, not anymore. I was running Abzan and Jeskai Queller, not anymore. Ponza will be changed to Bloody Ponza, and Abzan will become Bloody Jund, because it makes no sense not to run 3-4x BBE in those colors. E&T and Merfolks might live, if they are fast and disruptive enough, but I have my doubts. I am pessimistic about diversity in modern from now on.
Anyway, here is not the place to complain. Just my 2 cents about the article.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Testing with some new stuff today I found dire fleet daredevil was fun as hell. I stole several removal spells, and exiled a couple lingering souls. The first strike is relevant too. I'm gonna continue testing.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (11)
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (7)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Jund Charm
2 Collective Brutality
I tried Grim Flayers in the mainboard in place of Scavenging Ooze and it didn't do awful, but I feel like it wasn't great either. Most of the time I had it I could of played Scavenging Ooze and made him the same size (or bigger) while gaining some life - which is pretty relevant because over the course of 1 league I flipped a Bloodbraid Elf off Dark Confidant twice. I'm also going to test out 2 Kitchen Finks in the sideboard and a full 4 Fulminator Mage. Everytime I boarded it in and saw it, I was happy to see it. It definitely helped me out a ton in the few mathces I played today so going to stick with 4 for now. Grim Lavamancer seemed pretty decent and I want to keep one, but I dropped the 2nd one in place of a Jund Charm to test out. I thought I wanted 2 Grim Lavamancers but a lot of the time early on I didn't have a graveyard to fuel it with, and shrinking my own graveyard sucks when I draw a Tarmogoyf later on. The last thing I'm going to test it 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition instead of a 3/3 split. I had Inquisition of Kozilek whiff a shocking number of times. It could just be bad luck, but not being able to take anything from their hand feels awful.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
I actually think Reid's list is a little conservative! With BBE, I want my cascades to be really great. The Abrupt Decay in his maindeck feels like it should just be a second Maelstrom Pulse, and I'd cut the Fatal Push and maybe even the third Ooze for 2 Collective Brutality. With 25 land, you can make moves like this.
Speaking of land counts, I do not know why so many people here want to cut land. With 4 BBE and 0 DRS, 25 seems like the bare minimum and I'm tempted to run 26.
In a deck that has seen sin prodder get play there's room for innovation.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
And without Thoughtseize how do you plan to fight the Eldrazi Tron/Tron decks? I played against Eldrazi Tron earlier and just got destroyed. I know it's a bad matchup, but cutting one of our good cards like Thoughtseize just seems wrong. Reid is obviously a master Midrange player, so I don't doubt his ideas - but I'd rather wait to see what happens in a month than drop something that has been a staple of the deck for ages.
I also think 24 lands has been good to me, and 25 may even be the right choice. 26 seems like way to many for me though. Our curve isn't that high, and I'm personally only running 3 Bloodbraid Elf at the moment.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
To be clear: I think we should still try to have some sort of postboard plan versus Tron, Sideboard Thoughtseizes or Duresses actually seem great right now. All I'm saying is that tuning the maindeck for it is feels very wrong to me.
On the other side of the coin, playing IoK over Thoughtseize actually makes a tremendous difference in the aggro matchups. As I said, the format is speeding up, so I think this is where we should try to find edges. This is another argument in favor of my suggestion of maindeck Brutality, by the way.
I live for fair Magic.
Legacy: D&T/Lands
Modern: BGx
I am personally very eager to warp my deck around BBE at the moment, not sure if this will be the correct way in the end.
I am playing in a meta that is filled with token strategies (Abzan,Mardu,BW,Esper) and am a bit worried that will BBE be able to run over those decks.
I have been toying with the same idea that some guys have also posted in this thread: splashing white for Lingering Souls.
With singleton Godless Shrine and BBE Cascade there should be good chances to get it working. And for worst case scenarios we have Lili and Collective brutality to discard it for flashback:
Here is my current approach:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
I want to share my thoughts and impressions.
Matchups:
Jund draw WLW
Jund draw WLW
Affinity play LL
Burn draw LWW
UW Miracle draw LWW
Decklists:
I’m glad if these impressions are helpful for you. And want to see your thoughts!
This deck feels significantly faster with BBE and 4x bolts again. It plays totally different from Abzan, more so than in 2015.
I tried 4x fulminators maindeck with 3x K Command and 1x Last Hope. I don't think the land loop is worth it unless Tron is all over the place.
I did warp my deck quite a bit to experiment with BBE Jund.
Bob is definitely keeping me on the edge now. Jund is definitely not durdley anymore, this deck turns the corner really fast
I really have to see how I'm going to make this deck. 3x K Command felt fantastic. I didn't find myself missing Scooze, but again, this was purely an experimental list. I don't feel like posting it because it's not worth testing.
3x K Command was amazing---like, this looks and feels as good as K Commands did when Grixis Control was a deck in 2016. I really think Jund's final lists will run 3 copies or play 2x K Command and 1x Hope.
After playing a bunch tonight, there's no way in hell less than 4x copies is right, she completely turbo charges this deck
Even when BBE whiffs, it means you got land and crap off the top of your deck, I was seeing 2x ofs more often thanks to her.
I think 3 cards will make up KCommand/LtLH, maybe even 4.
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
Sorcery:
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Instant:
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Land:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
3 Raging Ravine
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Twilight Mire
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Thrun, the last Troll
What do you think about running 2 Raging Ravine and 1 Treetop Village?
The amount of 3-4 drop bothers me a little so maybe move LtLH to SB and add Ooze/CB Main?
btw yeh ok I'll keep the 1x Fatal Push and try to remember to play a fetch with BBE like the boss says
Thanks!
It means that if you play a turn 4 fetch before BBE, if you cascade into Fatal Push, you will have revolt, which could be relevant.