Hype_rion our lists are identical except I'm on three Ravines and my TTV is a Scooze. For me 25 lands feels way too floody and Scooze is such a multifaceted utility card that three seems best. It gains life, gets huge, and deals with flashback targets, reanimated targets, and Dredge shenanigans.
Again, it seems to me that the percentage points lost or gained by such small tweaks are meaningful, but not very large, and are probably overwhelmed by noise unless we're talking about months of regular play.
I am hugely surprized that you dislike LtLH, I have felt that she was absolutely amazing as soon as she became a staple in the deck. I would even consider her the third best PW ever printed to be honest. Right last week she singlehandedly won me 2 games, I definitely wont leave home with a copy maindeck at least.
My problem isn't with the card's power level. It's a card that is hugely impactful in some matchups (small creatures), solid in others (midrange/control), and bad against several key archetypes (Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Tron, combo). For me, that relegates her to the sideboard, and even then I only want to play her if I'm expecting to see a lot of decks where she's killing creatures. While she's great against elves and affinity, she's not awesome against Humans and I think that she's a trap against Merfolk. The U/G lists are so fast that you really can't afford to spend 3 mana to play her, and with them dropping Master of Waves she's really only killing Merfolk Branchwalker and Silvergill Adept. There's a solid merfolk player at my LGS that I've played against with Abzan, Traverse Shadow, and Jund and any time I've played Liliana I've found myself wishing she was just another Fatal Push.
I played this list last night and went 3-1, beating Tron, Kiln Fiend, and Eggs, losing to Grixis Control.
The Grixis matchup felt very manageable and I made a couple key mistakes in sequencing and overvaluing Liliana of the Veil that gave my opponent the chance to get back into games I was looking to win. I felt very rusty playing Jund against that style of deck, but I think that'll go away in time. My Tron opponent stumbled in games 1 and 3, and the power boost from BBE made it so that I was able to capitalize and close out games before he could play too many haymakers.
Overall, I was super pleased with the list. I played against 4 very different decks and felt like I had a lot of good sideboarding options, and my post-board games felt very comfortable. I really want to find room for a second Kitchen Finks, and am considering moving the sideboard Thoughtseize into the main and dropping an Inquisition to facilitate that. I'm continuing to like 25 lands because of how important it is to hit your fourth land drop and how hard that is if you have to discard lands to Liliana. I'm getting to the point where I'm valuing my first four lands over spells, which I don't think was the case in the past. I was also really rewarded in the Grixis matchup for playing the basic mountain, because my opponent made a very good effort to cut me off of red.
I'm looking to play in two IQ's this weekend and will be registering at least 73 of this 75.
Good post, Hyperion. Lots of good reasoning there.
I was incredibly resistant to 25 lands when delver kept going on it, but I do feel that 24 may just be a tad greedy now. A few weeks ago when my opponent played his bbes faster than me and I struggled for land it sent a wake up call for me. I'm still testing 24 lands and wanting to give it a fair shot, but the deck tuner in me is saying 25 is the right call. I'm not a creative deck builder but I take a ton of joy in fine tuning lists.
Maybe I'll test 2 scoozes, that's exactly where the discard would go
My issue with that creates some issues with the sb
I feel if I go 4 iok, and 1 seize, then I need 1 more seize in the board. If I cut the scooze, then there's no way just 2x gy hate is acceptable, that for sure needs to be either 2 spellbombs and a cage or 2 cages and 1 spellbomb.
We could go 3 iok, 2 seize, which isn't unreasonable. I think collective brutality in the side can cover some of the ground post board
I almost never went 3 and 3 on discard, I always felt 4 iok was better and that you have to trust the deck to not need that extra thoughtseize.
The deck feels like it needs 3x collectives and 2x finks in the board, does anyone feel the same?
Thrun and choke feel unneeded, bbe has made the control matchup closer than ever. I'd rather improve poorer matchups than increase a 50 50 for me.
I still haven't tried a 2 2 split on the manlands, I should give it a try. Doing this means the fourth land should be a mountain though.
I also haven't tried rubins list which runs 5 Man lands.
I agree with you that cutting the one copy of fatal push is greedy. I want to play a removal at the end of the turn and drop Goyf or Bob immediately.
I am using a similar list and getting good results.
My concerns is about our match against big mana decks. I winning somethings against tron when I cast fulminator on turn 3, with BBE we can win most of the time because the pressure of the 3/2 and chance of casting anouther fulminator. I am thinking in use 4 fulminator in the side board, maybe in the slot of the nihil spellbomb.
Delver, I value the subject highly too, thanks for your reply.
When I said nine T4 CIPT lands vs. seven I was referring to the current 25 land lists with with 4 manlands and 5 fastlands, vs. my list. I wasn't thinking of pre-BBE lists. I didn't play Jund before the unban.
She actually debates that thoughtseize may be a real option now due to BBE
She also says Rubin has a good point in siding out 1 or 2 Bobs on the draw, with the nightmare scenario of your opponent killing Bob with Last Hope. That...that scenario is actually backbreaking.
I asked her if she could clarify on some things, such as what her sideboard plan would like with a cookie cutter list, the land count debate, and the removal suite.
I am new to Jund and I am a reformed WU player for many years. When Jace first came back into the fold, I was really hoping that there would be a shell in which he slotted easily. Unfortunately, like so many others have learned, the format has moved well beyond what Jace can bring to most games and he has been an utter disappointment like I am to my aging parents.
That said, I have some pretty good guidance and assistance from another poster/lurker around here and we've been playtesting quite a bit as of late. I'm running a variant - I guess you can call it that - based off one of the Jund Shadow packages. No, it's not a Shadow deck, it is definitively Jund.
It drops 2 lands, from the standard and picks up Traverse the Ulvenwald to get us to the land we need early in the game and pushes us toward the Bloodbraid Elf or another value card later in the game. So far, testing has proven that this build is fairly consistent.
Looking for any advice or thoughts on the build before I start taking this out for test runs.
Maybe I am being a little greedy with this build, but this is what I am thinking of taking to the Edmonton Face to Face Open (5K) next weekend. The sideboard Abrupt I would rather be a second LtLH but I can't seem to find a second right now to fill that slot. Basically I am just wondering what others think of this proposed list. I like the 3rd Kolaghan's becuase I have never felt bad casting it, and think that there is always a relevant mode pairing. The main problem is I feel kind of weak to burn, and I always see burn at these F2F events, and with burn making a comeback right now, I don't know if this is 100% the right call. I have been lurking for the last 30 pages or so, which is what has me second guessing my build, but just thought I would still throw it out there for discussion.
Side note: I haven't played magic in about 6-7 months and BBE unbanning has brought me back, and even before that I hadn't played Jund for long. I was a long time aggro player (Burn and Infect) who always dreamed of piloting Jund. (Was always too expensive until all the reprints helped drop it a bit.)
She actually debates that thoughtseize may be a real option now due to BBE
She also says Rubin has a good point in siding out 1 or 2 Bobs on the draw, with the nightmare scenario of your opponent killing Bob with Last Hope. That...that scenario is actually backbreaking.
I asked her if she could clarify on some things, such as what her sideboard plan would like with a cookie cutter list, the land count debate, and the removal suite.
Damn, knew it was only a matter of time before they moved her to premium. Her articles are some of the best on the site these days.
She's by far their best writer, it was only a matter of time. I kinda think they should move Shaun Mclarens stuff off the premium side, it's usually kinda trolly and unhelpful. He's such a quality player so its frustrating to be a paying member when it's just not good material.
Hey, guys, Jadine was nice enough to respond to my question pretty quickly. Her response:
"First, let me just say I'm glad you like my work and find it valuable
The sideboard plan you posted looks good. My position on Thoughtseize is to leave two in if your other option over them is Fulminator, if your board is deeper than that get them all out. Prior to BBE I thought Fulminator was better than Thoughtseize, now I think the first two Thoughtseizes pull their weight. I do like trimming the 4th bolt out as well.
I'm firmly in the camp of 25 lands, but I expect we'll see this debate resolve itself in the weeks ahead as Jund lists get more tuned. Make sure to board out a land v most Path decks.
I like Finks a lot in the mirror right now, so I don't hate having it too do work against burn as well, and im in on 3 Collective Brutality. I tend to think the burn matchup is fine; no idea if this applies to you but the biggest mistake people make in it is not attacking enough. Tarmogoyf is your best card in the matchup, not Brutality."
Only four? Does that create enough consistency to beat combo decks? I've seen lists do similar things, it's just hard to imagine the deck squeaking out wins without early interaction.
About cutting Push: I am not a fan, to say the least. Push is a 1 mana (often) unconditional removal the deck needs. I think playing 1 is fine, but geting rid of it seems like a big mistake to me.
The amount of discard in the maindeck: Again, cutting Thoughtseize can't be right thing to do because you sometimes need this unconditional discard to take a big threat in your opponent's hand which IOK can't take care of. Reid Duke also added 1 Thoughtseize to his recent list.
The 4 Bolts are set in stone for me alongside the 4 IOK (depending on the meta I could also see a mix of 3 IOK/2 Thoughtseize but I like the 4/1 more). That leaves us with ten 1 mana interaction spells, which are hugely important to our strategy. Yes, BBE made these spells "worse" in the sense that higher cmc spells are better cascade targets but they are a) important to clear the way for our strong second and third turn spells in form of Bob, Goyf and Lili b) important in the midgame when it is necessary to cast several spells a turn (now even better with Treetop Village in the deck) and c) still not completely bad cascade targets.
The next part of the deck are the creatures. Most of the current lists play 15 creatures: 4 Bobs, 4 Goyfs, 3 Oozes and 4x the Elf. Now let me try to explain you the "Ooze problem" I have had since the unbanning: In order to be able to play 3 Oozes, you have to cut another card from the deck. I do not want to go below ten 1cmc spells, so the possibilities are the following:
1) Cut the 25th land: I think 25 lands is the correct amount, everything below is far too greedy. Imagine not hitting your 4th land in time in the mirror while your opponent is jamming BBE's for fun.
2) Cut Liliana, the Last Hope: Also currently not an option for me. The card is doing too many amazing things in so many matchups.
3) Cutting one of the higher cmc spells (I will come to them later). This is what most of the lists seem to do, but again these spells are too important for our strategy to cut them, but it is probably the best way if it turns out playing the 3rd Ooze is necessary.
4) Playing only 2 Oozes: This might seem greedy to a lot of you, but so far in my testing I have been happy with just two. Only the latest decklists online made me think again about this decision but for now I will stick to 2 of them.
Taking into consideration that 5 Lilis mainboard are the best configuration there are still 6 free slots in the deck: 2 of them are K-Command, one of the best cascade targets in the deck. I want the removal package as versatile as possible, therefore I decided to put in 4 different 1ofs:
Maelstrom Pulse, Terminate, Dreadbore and Abrupt Decay. 3 of them stand for versatility, Terminate is just there to do the job without asking any further questions.
Now to the lands:
If your meta is full of Blood Moon, play 2 Swamps and 2 Forests. My meta is full of Field of Ruin, so the Mountain instead of the second Forest is a no-brainer for me.
What I am really unsure about is the current configuration of manlands. I will start with 2 Ravines and 2 Treetop Villages, but if I struggle getting red mana I could see myself going back to 3 Ravines and a single Treetop Village. The Ape land is simply overperforming for it's activation cost, therefore the 2/2 split currently.
Anyway, here is the decklist I am currently testing with (I am yet to build a sideboard):
Really great points I have the same feelings about those as well. One thing to add for me is, that I generally want at least 3 hard removal of any kind in my maindeck which is essentially any combination of Maelstrom Pulses, Terminates or Dreadbores at this point. Those cards combined make up 3 slots for me. The reason for me is, that as a general rule, running 3 copies of a card (or here in that case card type) means you want to draw one in every game basically. And I really want to have that option available for me in every game.
Basically your list is exactly mine which I posted a few pages back before I made some theoretical changes. The only difference is that I run 2 Terminates over 1/1 split with Dreadbore and I do run 3 Ravines and 1 Treetop. Therefore of course your points make a lot of sense to me, because I felt the same way when building my list.
I could definitely see trying out the 2/2 split of the manlands though. Treetop is certainly great. I have a little fear about the red mana though.
The deck feels like it needs 3x collectives and 2x finks in the board, does anyone feel the same?
I think this is a bit overkill. I could see a 2/2 split of CB and Finks (with Finks being impactful in the mirror as well) or a 3/1 split in favor of CB. But thats me, since I want that slot for an extra TS. 2 Finks seem interesting, not sure if its right, but worth to test.
Delver, I value the subject highly too, thanks for your reply.
When I said nine T4 CIPT lands vs. seven I was referring to the current 25 land lists with with 4 manlands and 5 fastlands, vs. my list. I wasn't thinking of pre-BBE lists. I didn't play Jund before the unban.
Oh yeah, in that case nevermind! I guess its worth noting anyway. And to add, in my humble opinion, the best 25 land builds run 8 of those tapped lands, without any Blooming Marsh whatsoever (I know many people still do that, but I think its utterly wrong). Essentially, originating from the standard 24 land build I posted, a good 25 land build for me would include the following changes: -1 Fetch, +1 Basic, +1 Treetop. Treetop is essentially the 25th land for me.
She actually debates that thoughtseize may be a real option now due to BBE
She also says Rubin has a good point in siding out 1 or 2 Bobs on the draw, with the nightmare scenario of your opponent killing Bob with Last Hope. That...that scenario is actually backbreaking.
I asked her if she could clarify on some things, such as what her sideboard plan would like with a cookie cutter list, the land count debate, and the removal suite.
Hm, I like Jadine and her articles, but I am sceptical about this. I think if we keep TS to make opponents BBE worse (as it can trade 1 for 1 only potentially) our own BBE also gets worse (as it also potentially trades 1 for 1 if we cascade into TS in topdeck mode). So all in all, I don't think discard should be kept in, since it is a mirror after all. The opponent has a very powerful card in BBE, but so do we also. I think if one player sides out all discard and the other player doesnt, the latter BBEs will be better, which I am seeking in that matchup.
The only thing which could be a reason to keep TS is if you have a case where your opponent has BBE and we dont. BBE is very swingy and therefore we could be very behind if our opponent plays one and we dont. But again, I think overall its totally not worth it, since we cant know which hands we will keep and if we draw BBE or not.
And in cases where we dont have TS early and not have BBE of our own, our opponent casts BBE and is miles ahead, a topdeck of us in TS is basically game over. I think you would open yourself up to instantly loose on the spot. It may not be that likely, but I am not a fan of those possibilities in the mirror.
We just cant guarantee hitting a BBE with TS, since in the mirror thousands of different hands are keepable which dont involve BBE, its not an autowin if one has it.
But I think by leaving in TS you actually threat it that way. And I think thats not the best approach.
Only four? Does that create enough consistency to beat combo decks? I've seen lists do similar things, it's just hard to imagine the deck squeaking out wins without early interaction.
That's why I think 5 discard spells is the minimum.
I do also think that. It remains to see if 5 or 6 is correct. But I am leaning towards 5 at this point.
Again, it seems to me that the percentage points lost or gained by such small tweaks are meaningful, but not very large, and are probably overwhelmed by noise unless we're talking about months of regular play.
My problem isn't with the card's power level. It's a card that is hugely impactful in some matchups (small creatures), solid in others (midrange/control), and bad against several key archetypes (Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Tron, combo). For me, that relegates her to the sideboard, and even then I only want to play her if I'm expecting to see a lot of decks where she's killing creatures. While she's great against elves and affinity, she's not awesome against Humans and I think that she's a trap against Merfolk. The U/G lists are so fast that you really can't afford to spend 3 mana to play her, and with them dropping Master of Waves she's really only killing Merfolk Branchwalker and Silvergill Adept. There's a solid merfolk player at my LGS that I've played against with Abzan, Traverse Shadow, and Jund and any time I've played Liliana I've found myself wishing she was just another Fatal Push.
I played this list last night and went 3-1, beating Tron, Kiln Fiend, and Eggs, losing to Grixis Control.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
Creature (15)
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (6)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
1x Fatal Push
4x Fulminator Mage
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Thoughtseize
The Grixis matchup felt very manageable and I made a couple key mistakes in sequencing and overvaluing Liliana of the Veil that gave my opponent the chance to get back into games I was looking to win. I felt very rusty playing Jund against that style of deck, but I think that'll go away in time. My Tron opponent stumbled in games 1 and 3, and the power boost from BBE made it so that I was able to capitalize and close out games before he could play too many haymakers.
Overall, I was super pleased with the list. I played against 4 very different decks and felt like I had a lot of good sideboarding options, and my post-board games felt very comfortable. I really want to find room for a second Kitchen Finks, and am considering moving the sideboard Thoughtseize into the main and dropping an Inquisition to facilitate that. I'm continuing to like 25 lands because of how important it is to hit your fourth land drop and how hard that is if you have to discard lands to Liliana. I'm getting to the point where I'm valuing my first four lands over spells, which I don't think was the case in the past. I was also really rewarded in the Grixis matchup for playing the basic mountain, because my opponent made a very good effort to cut me off of red.
I'm looking to play in two IQ's this weekend and will be registering at least 73 of this 75.
I was incredibly resistant to 25 lands when delver kept going on it, but I do feel that 24 may just be a tad greedy now. A few weeks ago when my opponent played his bbes faster than me and I struggled for land it sent a wake up call for me. I'm still testing 24 lands and wanting to give it a fair shot, but the deck tuner in me is saying 25 is the right call. I'm not a creative deck builder but I take a ton of joy in fine tuning lists.
Maybe I'll test 2 scoozes, that's exactly where the discard would go
My issue with that creates some issues with the sb
I feel if I go 4 iok, and 1 seize, then I need 1 more seize in the board. If I cut the scooze, then there's no way just 2x gy hate is acceptable, that for sure needs to be either 2 spellbombs and a cage or 2 cages and 1 spellbomb.
We could go 3 iok, 2 seize, which isn't unreasonable. I think collective brutality in the side can cover some of the ground post board
I almost never went 3 and 3 on discard, I always felt 4 iok was better and that you have to trust the deck to not need that extra thoughtseize.
The deck feels like it needs 3x collectives and 2x finks in the board, does anyone feel the same?
Thrun and choke feel unneeded, bbe has made the control matchup closer than ever. I'd rather improve poorer matchups than increase a 50 50 for me.
I still haven't tried a 2 2 split on the manlands, I should give it a try. Doing this means the fourth land should be a mountain though.
I also haven't tried rubins list which runs 5 Man lands.
I agree with you that cutting the one copy of fatal push is greedy. I want to play a removal at the end of the turn and drop Goyf or Bob immediately.
My concerns is about our match against big mana decks. I winning somethings against tron when I cast fulminator on turn 3, with BBE we can win most of the time because the pressure of the 3/2 and chance of casting anouther fulminator. I am thinking in use 4 fulminator in the side board, maybe in the slot of the nihil spellbomb.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers (5)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
(15) Spells
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Blooming Marsh
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Raging Ravine
2 Treetop Village
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Collective Brutality
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
I agree you should fit a finks in.
The 3 2 split on discard is where I was heading, I really don't want thoughtseize taking up space for the board.
When I said nine T4 CIPT lands vs. seven I was referring to the current 25 land lists with with 4 manlands and 5 fastlands, vs. my list. I wasn't thinking of pre-BBE lists. I didn't play Jund before the unban.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36730_Jund-Mirrors-In-This-Economy.html
She actually debates that thoughtseize may be a real option now due to BBE
She also says Rubin has a good point in siding out 1 or 2 Bobs on the draw, with the nightmare scenario of your opponent killing Bob with Last Hope. That...that scenario is actually backbreaking.
I asked her if she could clarify on some things, such as what her sideboard plan would like with a cookie cutter list, the land count debate, and the removal suite.
I am new to Jund and I am a reformed WU player for many years. When Jace first came back into the fold, I was really hoping that there would be a shell in which he slotted easily. Unfortunately, like so many others have learned, the format has moved well beyond what Jace can bring to most games and he has been an utter disappointment like I am to my aging parents.
That said, I have some pretty good guidance and assistance from another poster/lurker around here and we've been playtesting quite a bit as of late. I'm running a variant - I guess you can call it that - based off one of the Jund Shadow packages. No, it's not a Shadow deck, it is definitively Jund.
Here is the deck:
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Enchantment
1 Seal of Fire
Instants
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
1 Tarfire
Land
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Treetop Village
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorcery
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Artifact
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Creature
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
Instants
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
It drops 2 lands, from the standard and picks up Traverse the Ulvenwald to get us to the land we need early in the game and pushes us toward the Bloodbraid Elf or another value card later in the game. So far, testing has proven that this build is fairly consistent.
Looking for any advice or thoughts on the build before I start taking this out for test runs.
Side note: I haven't played magic in about 6-7 months and BBE unbanning has brought me back, and even before that I hadn't played Jund for long. I was a long time aggro player (Burn and Infect) who always dreamed of piloting Jund. (Was always too expensive until all the reprints helped drop it a bit.)
Creature [14]
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker [5]
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Instant [10]
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Fatal Push
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Terminate
Sorcery [7]
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Swamp
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Collective Brutality
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Abrupt Decay
Damn, knew it was only a matter of time before they moved her to premium. Her articles are some of the best on the site these days.
"First, let me just say I'm glad you like my work and find it valuable
The sideboard plan you posted looks good. My position on Thoughtseize is to leave two in if your other option over them is Fulminator, if your board is deeper than that get them all out. Prior to BBE I thought Fulminator was better than Thoughtseize, now I think the first two Thoughtseizes pull their weight. I do like trimming the 4th bolt out as well.
I'm firmly in the camp of 25 lands, but I expect we'll see this debate resolve itself in the weeks ahead as Jund lists get more tuned. Make sure to board out a land v most Path decks.
I like Finks a lot in the mirror right now, so I don't hate having it too do work against burn as well, and im in on 3 Collective Brutality. I tend to think the burn matchup is fine; no idea if this applies to you but the biggest mistake people make in it is not attacking enough. Tarmogoyf is your best card in the matchup, not Brutality."
Scooze
Last Hope
Push
Terminate
I REALLY don't like push and terminate as the flex spots though.
But for a 5th discard you may use 1 push 1 terminate and the 5th discard
So in game two I can be more interactive against unfair decks
Really great points I have the same feelings about those as well. One thing to add for me is, that I generally want at least 3 hard removal of any kind in my maindeck which is essentially any combination of Maelstrom Pulses, Terminates or Dreadbores at this point. Those cards combined make up 3 slots for me. The reason for me is, that as a general rule, running 3 copies of a card (or here in that case card type) means you want to draw one in every game basically. And I really want to have that option available for me in every game.
Basically your list is exactly mine which I posted a few pages back before I made some theoretical changes. The only difference is that I run 2 Terminates over 1/1 split with Dreadbore and I do run 3 Ravines and 1 Treetop. Therefore of course your points make a lot of sense to me, because I felt the same way when building my list.
I could definitely see trying out the 2/2 split of the manlands though. Treetop is certainly great. I have a little fear about the red mana though.
I think this is a bit overkill. I could see a 2/2 split of CB and Finks (with Finks being impactful in the mirror as well) or a 3/1 split in favor of CB. But thats me, since I want that slot for an extra TS. 2 Finks seem interesting, not sure if its right, but worth to test.
Oh yeah, in that case nevermind! I guess its worth noting anyway. And to add, in my humble opinion, the best 25 land builds run 8 of those tapped lands, without any Blooming Marsh whatsoever (I know many people still do that, but I think its utterly wrong). Essentially, originating from the standard 24 land build I posted, a good 25 land build for me would include the following changes: -1 Fetch, +1 Basic, +1 Treetop. Treetop is essentially the 25th land for me.
Hm, I like Jadine and her articles, but I am sceptical about this. I think if we keep TS to make opponents BBE worse (as it can trade 1 for 1 only potentially) our own BBE also gets worse (as it also potentially trades 1 for 1 if we cascade into TS in topdeck mode). So all in all, I don't think discard should be kept in, since it is a mirror after all. The opponent has a very powerful card in BBE, but so do we also. I think if one player sides out all discard and the other player doesnt, the latter BBEs will be better, which I am seeking in that matchup.
The only thing which could be a reason to keep TS is if you have a case where your opponent has BBE and we dont. BBE is very swingy and therefore we could be very behind if our opponent plays one and we dont. But again, I think overall its totally not worth it, since we cant know which hands we will keep and if we draw BBE or not.
And in cases where we dont have TS early and not have BBE of our own, our opponent casts BBE and is miles ahead, a topdeck of us in TS is basically game over. I think you would open yourself up to instantly loose on the spot. It may not be that likely, but I am not a fan of those possibilities in the mirror.
We just cant guarantee hitting a BBE with TS, since in the mirror thousands of different hands are keepable which dont involve BBE, its not an autowin if one has it.
But I think by leaving in TS you actually threat it that way. And I think thats not the best approach.
I do also think that. It remains to see if 5 or 6 is correct. But I am leaning towards 5 at this point.