Yeah, I had already fit in a TBR for the 4th Kcommand before you brought up the manamorphose. Now I just have to figure out if I want to cut the 3rd Kcommand for the TBR.
Hmm. That's something I never thought I would see coming from you.
You have always preached that if you want TBR at all, it should just be in the mainboard since your opponent is going to have more answers to your threats postpoard anyway.
Why is the situation different here? (not necessarily disagreeing with you, I would just like to see into your thought process here)
I don't think you need more threats anymore. Though the BBE/Flayer synergy could be cool, I wouldn't be willing to cut a cantrip or an interaction piece for a Flayer.
A 3/1 split of BBE/Hazoret could be sweet though...
Without much to say in the way of proper ratios or anything, this is the preliminary build of what I was thinking of ordering. For those with some experience playing the BBE version how does this look for a starting point? Thanks for the feedback in advance!
I am unsure about the Maelstrom Pulse in the main, might be better as a SB card and bring over the second Abrupt Decay to the main instead? Also the viability of Seal of Fire and Tarfire are up in the air for me, maybe someone can chime in with a reason to play/not play those cards
I think you need all 4 Traverse's because they allow you to hit your land drops. The Grim Flayer probably isn't needed anymore because our threat density is much higher now than it has ever been. The Seal of Fire's and Tarfire are totally reasonable, they are better at enabling delirium than the bolts, but the extra damage is sometimes important. The Blood Moons/Magus of the Moon in the board are fricken gas. No one is going to play around the Death Shadow deck playing Blood Moon, and it allows you get either free wins or prevent them from killing you with manlands, azcanta, valakut, urza's mine, field of ruin even.
You should be playing with Manamorphose. Just name G/B mana 90% of the time if you're unsure of what you're playing that turn. It allows you to play around mana denial, it enables delirium it lets us play a 48 card deck (which is insane).
The Yixlid Jailer and Minister of Pain are the slots I'm the least sure about so far.
You can change the K-Commands in my list into more 1 mana hand disruption/TBR if you're worried about combo. But I think the list I posted is a great place to start
I think you need all 4 Traverse's because they allow you to hit your land drops. The Grim Flayer probably isn't needed anymore because our threat density is much higher now than it has ever been. The Seal of Fire's and Tarfire are totally reasonable, they are better at enabling delirium than the bolts, but the extra damage is sometimes important. The Blood Moons/Magus of the Moon in the board are fricken gas. No one is going to play around the Death Shadow deck playing Blood Moon, and it allows you get either free wins or prevent them from killing you with manlands, azcanta, valakut, urza's mine, field of ruin even.
You should be playing with Manamorphose. Just name G/B mana 90% of the time if you're unsure of what you're playing that turn. It allows you to play around mana denial, it enables delirium it lets us play a 48 card deck (which is insane).
The Yixlid Jailer and Minister of Pain are the slots I'm the least sure about so far.
You can change the K-Commands in my list into more 1 mana hand disruption/TBR if you're worried about combo. But I think the list I posted is a great place to start
Great thanks a lot for the feedback! I think I agree about the 1 mana hand disruption over a K-Command because my meta has a bunch more combo than normal. I'll work on it and in the coming weeks after playing it I will post some results
TBR is also perfectly reasonable over the K-commands. If you have a goyf on board and BBE into a TBR they are probably just dead on turn 4.
Yea the problem I have is that there are Storm players, Grishoalbrand, AdNaus, and some other craziness in my meta and being balanced against them but also against some of the other decks is pretty important. Maybe initially I will try to just race in my meta and if things slow down a little then going more grindy with the K-Commands would be the ideal instead... Tough to say right now
Oh gotcha. The collective brutalities are also solid there as additional hand disruption. Ad naus has a rough time with blood moon, and you can play a golgari charm for the leyline. Grishoalbrand and storm aren't happy about cage. Jailer does nothing against grishoalbrand but is pretty good against storm, as is the minister of pain because they are usually on the Empty plan.
But yeah, it's totally reasonable to swap the kcommands for more disruption. Good luck, let us know how it goes!
Hmm. That's something I never thought I would see coming from you.
You have always preached that if you want TBR at all, it should just be in the mainboard since your opponent is going to have more answers to your threats postpoard anyway.
Why is the situation different here? (not necessarily disagreeing with you, I would just like to see into your thought process here)
Hitting TBR off BBE can sometimes be pretty awkward. It loses its surprise value, it's often not even good except for in very specific spots - like the last turn of the game, and on an empty board it won't have any targets (why can't BBE resolve first!!??). My inclination is 1 MD 1 SB, but I could see 0 MD.
What about -1 Mountain, -1 Tarfire, -1 K Command, -2 Seal of Fire for +3 Manamorphose, +2 Grim Flayer?
It's so hard to find room for Flayer in Manamorphose builds, but I could see it working. Flayer was super impressive to me in the pre-PT builds w/out Morphose.
TBR is also perfectly reasonable over the K-commands. If you have a goyf on board and BBE into a TBR they are probably just dead on turn 4.
Yea the problem I have is that there are Storm players, Grishoalbrand, AdNaus, and some other craziness in my meta and being balanced against them but also against some of the other decks is pretty important. Maybe initially I will try to just race in my meta and if things slow down a little then going more grindy with the K-Commands would be the ideal instead... Tough to say right now
FWIW Outside of Ad Naus, it sounds like GY hate will help solve a lot of your problems without having to dip into blue.
Oh and one tip. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Traverse Shadow. But in the previous version, every traverse was precious. But now, it's okay to "burn" a traverse to hit your land drops. BBE will make up for the lost tempo/threat density.
Oh and one tip. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Traverse Shadow. But in the previous version, every traverse was precious. But now, it's okay to "burn" a traverse to hit your land drops. BBE will make up for the lost tempo/threat density.
Oh that is a good tip. I have zero games with the deck so stuff like that is useful to know. Thanks!
Oh and one tip. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Traverse Shadow. But in the previous version, every traverse was precious. But now, it's okay to "burn" a traverse to hit your land drops. BBE will make up for the lost tempo/threat density.
Oh that is a good tip. I have zero games with the deck so stuff like that is useful to know. Thanks!
You should play at least a few air games before jamming this deck at a LGS or event. I cant speak for the BBE version but, the Pro Tour version of the deck had very complex sequences that are critical on the first two turns. I wish you luck
Oh and one tip. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Traverse Shadow. But in the previous version, every traverse was precious. But now, it's okay to "burn" a traverse to hit your land drops. BBE will make up for the lost tempo/threat density.
Oh that is a good tip. I have zero games with the deck so stuff like that is useful to know. Thanks!
You should play at least a few air games before jamming this deck at a LGS or event. I cant speak for the BBE version but, the Pro Tour version of the deck had very complex sequences that are critical on the first two turns. I wish you luck
Oh yea for sure, I have no illusions about it being easy and I will be testing a lot of games before settling on ratios I like. I am picking it up on purpose for the interesting complexity the deck offers over others
I dont think BBE is what we want in this deck, Not with stubborn denial, bauble, 8 discards and so many non bo cards. Sure BBE is hell of a card advantage engine when paired with KCommand, but if were going to start to jam those cards into the traverse shadow shell, then were probably better off playing regular midrange Jund.
I know were all excited about BBE but this deck doesnt want to spend too many turns Kcommanding and looping BBE, which yes gets us incredible card advantage, but provides a relatively slower clock when compared to our original plan of disrupting, landing a threat and closing out in a couple of turns.
4 mana is a lot for this deck and is only reserved for grindy matchups where we expect a longer game. Against those decks I can see the point of maybe running a few BBE and Kcommands from the side, but other than that I think the 4c and 5c shell isnt very compatible with BBE.
Is it worth to give up on blue just to jam a lategame card advantage engine? Or can this actually be run with stubborn denials and blue?
BBE does more than generate card advantage. She can do that, yeah, but what she really does is create board advantage. She helps you close the game on her own. After testing Jace, who is a just a pure card advantage engine, I wasn't very excited. He doesn't flip a board state. If you're behind, you're behind. And if you're even, you might still die after playing him because you spend 4 mana not really impacting the board, and if you're ahead, he doesn't shut the door quickly. BBE on the other hand is good at all positions of the game (other than being land screwed).
We need some card in our deck that lets us fight against the fair decks. BBE is the first one we have gotten that lets us just play 3 colors. Which is a way bigger boon than I first realized. The mana consistency alone has won me games that I would have lost if I was still playing 4 color, and getting to play BLOOD MOON in my shadow deck means I don't miss the blue countermagic.
It's possible that my current build isn't what we will actually end up on, but BBE has greatly overperformed for me so far. (And the silky smooth mana)
Oh and one tip. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Traverse Shadow. But in the previous version, every traverse was precious. But now, it's okay to "burn" a traverse to hit your land drops. BBE will make up for the lost tempo/threat density.
Oh that is a good tip. I have zero games with the deck so stuff like that is useful to know. Thanks!
You should play at least a few air games before jamming this deck at a LGS or event. I cant speak for the BBE version but, the Pro Tour version of the deck had very complex sequences that are critical on the first two turns. I wish you luck
Oh yea for sure, I have no illusions about it being easy and I will be testing a lot of games before settling on ratios I like. I am picking it up on purpose for the interesting complexity the deck offers over others
It is a deck that allows very complex avenues to route. The paths you take will leave you with sweaty palms, grins, and regrets. I have won alot of games on the back of a TBR with 1-2 health and I have lost alot of games coming up short by 1-2 health.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You have always preached that if you want TBR at all, it should just be in the mainboard since your opponent is going to have more answers to your threats postpoard anyway.
Why is the situation different here? (not necessarily disagreeing with you, I would just like to see into your thought process here)
A 3/1 split of BBE/Hazoret could be sweet though...
EDIT: OOps! sorry about the double post D:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
1 Grim Flayer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Seal of Fire
1 Tarfire
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Jund Charm
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
I am unsure about the Maelstrom Pulse in the main, might be better as a SB card and bring over the second Abrupt Decay to the main instead? Also the viability of Seal of Fire and Tarfire are up in the air for me, maybe someone can chime in with a reason to play/not play those cards
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Cantrips
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Disruption/Removal
4 Thoughtseize
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Dreadbore
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Collective Brutality
2 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Minister of Pain
1 Ancient Grudge
I think you need all 4 Traverse's because they allow you to hit your land drops. The Grim Flayer probably isn't needed anymore because our threat density is much higher now than it has ever been. The Seal of Fire's and Tarfire are totally reasonable, they are better at enabling delirium than the bolts, but the extra damage is sometimes important. The Blood Moons/Magus of the Moon in the board are fricken gas. No one is going to play around the Death Shadow deck playing Blood Moon, and it allows you get either free wins or prevent them from killing you with manlands, azcanta, valakut, urza's mine, field of ruin even.
You should be playing with Manamorphose. Just name G/B mana 90% of the time if you're unsure of what you're playing that turn. It allows you to play around mana denial, it enables delirium it lets us play a 48 card deck (which is insane).
The Yixlid Jailer and Minister of Pain are the slots I'm the least sure about so far.
You can change the K-Commands in my list into more 1 mana hand disruption/TBR if you're worried about combo. But I think the list I posted is a great place to start
Great thanks a lot for the feedback! I think I agree about the 1 mana hand disruption over a K-Command because my meta has a bunch more combo than normal. I'll work on it and in the coming weeks after playing it I will post some results
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Yea the problem I have is that there are Storm players, Grishoalbrand, AdNaus, and some other craziness in my meta and being balanced against them but also against some of the other decks is pretty important. Maybe initially I will try to just race in my meta and if things slow down a little then going more grindy with the K-Commands would be the ideal instead... Tough to say right now
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
But yeah, it's totally reasonable to swap the kcommands for more disruption. Good luck, let us know how it goes!
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
Hitting TBR off BBE can sometimes be pretty awkward. It loses its surprise value, it's often not even good except for in very specific spots - like the last turn of the game, and on an empty board it won't have any targets (why can't BBE resolve first!!??). My inclination is 1 MD 1 SB, but I could see 0 MD.
It's so hard to find room for Flayer in Manamorphose builds, but I could see it working. Flayer was super impressive to me in the pre-PT builds w/out Morphose.
FWIW Outside of Ad Naus, it sounds like GY hate will help solve a lot of your problems without having to dip into blue.
Oh that is a good tip. I have zero games with the deck so stuff like that is useful to know. Thanks!
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
You should play at least a few air games before jamming this deck at a LGS or event. I cant speak for the BBE version but, the Pro Tour version of the deck had very complex sequences that are critical on the first two turns. I wish you luck
Oh yea for sure, I have no illusions about it being easy and I will be testing a lot of games before settling on ratios I like. I am picking it up on purpose for the interesting complexity the deck offers over others
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
I know were all excited about BBE but this deck doesnt want to spend too many turns Kcommanding and looping BBE, which yes gets us incredible card advantage, but provides a relatively slower clock when compared to our original plan of disrupting, landing a threat and closing out in a couple of turns.
4 mana is a lot for this deck and is only reserved for grindy matchups where we expect a longer game. Against those decks I can see the point of maybe running a few BBE and Kcommands from the side, but other than that I think the 4c and 5c shell isnt very compatible with BBE.
Is it worth to give up on blue just to jam a lategame card advantage engine? Or can this actually be run with stubborn denials and blue?
Jace.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
We need some card in our deck that lets us fight against the fair decks. BBE is the first one we have gotten that lets us just play 3 colors. Which is a way bigger boon than I first realized. The mana consistency alone has won me games that I would have lost if I was still playing 4 color, and getting to play BLOOD MOON in my shadow deck means I don't miss the blue countermagic.
It's possible that my current build isn't what we will actually end up on, but BBE has greatly overperformed for me so far. (And the silky smooth mana)
It is a deck that allows very complex avenues to route. The paths you take will leave you with sweaty palms, grins, and regrets. I have won alot of games on the back of a TBR with 1-2 health and I have lost alot of games coming up short by 1-2 health.