well first off battle mad ronin blows absolute well... it blows
granted you are playing mountains but the stone rain seems a bit out of place, like its just one arbitrary land d spell. you seem to have more of a RDW style build so I would probably suggest flames of the blood hand in that slot.
myojin is just clutter for blazing shoal, you will never cast it and without a shoal it is a dead card. surprisingly hidegetsugu's second rite is very solid, not at 4x, perhaps like 2.
thats 8 slots to play with, I would probably add another jitte. Im not sure how good cohort would be but I think you have more than enough guys to support him. zozu also isnt a bad md attention as it really hurts all the STK mana engine decks.
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
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Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
Try to put some more Zozu in the board; maybe even in the maindeck. He is truly The Punisher in block (pun intended) by punishing about 70% of the decks since they rely too much on Tribe-Elder and Reach to get them going. Zozu will speed up the game quite quickly, making it easier to burn someone out of the game.
I hadn't thought about Zo-Zu maindeck, but that makes sense, now. Don't like Cohort too much, although I did try him out at one point. So, now I've got this:
Put in another Zozu. The guy is so good in block. He can quickly shorten the time it takes to beat control. You want to draw him consistently to have an edge vs. Gifts and other heavily land-reliant decks.
I almost ran 4 Zo-Zu main deck, then decided there'd be more aggro than Control and ended up being right. 3 is the correct number. Also, Kumano often times ends up being used as a win more drop. Only once did he actually decide a game for me, every other time it was more of a slap in the face.
To everyone: in an aggro meta (WW/MBA) do you think it could be viable to splash green for some fatties/STE/Kodama's Reach and Time of Need, or would a mono red deck like sandrock's do better?
Interesting matchup here. If Ire goes straight for my head, I lose. If he pauses for creatures, I win. Thankfully he chose plan two. An opening hand with 2 Spikes and 1 Ray gave me the win in Game 1. Game 2 Ishi-Ishi hit the board, and allied with the rest of my already rampant DD, the game soon ended. For some reason he never killed Ishi-Ishi and he left before I could ask him why!
2-0 ME
R2 vs RDW
Another mirror! His version was more sligh based, using Crack the Earth and Herder/Raider to keep his goblins pumped up. I just kept Houndmasters back to block and used frostlings to pick off creatures as they hit the board. It was quick both rounds.
2-0 ME
R3 vs MBA
Wow, was I not ready for this. I play MBS, so I figured I was ready for the MBA matchup, but I was dead wrong. A second turn Distress pulled out my Ray both games and his swarm of bleeders/oni slaves allied with O-Naginata pretty much wrecked me. Frostling was worthless after game 1 when he sided out Ogre Marauder.
2-1 Opponent
R4 vs MBS
I almost cried when Black hit the table again, but it was different this time. He ran nothing to pull cards out of my hand, and I was able to pull Flames to pick off Oni-Slaves as they came into play. He sided in Extraction game 2, but named Ryusei instead of Kumano. Kumano never hit play anyway.
2-0 ME
R5 vs Myojin Flare
All I have to say is, wow does Zo-Zu wreck control. A 4th turn Zo-Zu in both games hurt. I netted an average of 12 damage off of Zo-Zu, while taking a measly 6 myself. Not bad.
2-0 ME
End of Main
4-1
3rd Place
Top 8
R1 vs WW
No equipment. Strange to say the least. When I drew Jitte on turn 2 I almost smiled since I didn't have a hearth kami to take out his equip. But I never saw any. Jitte ran rampant both games and I never saw anything other than Isamaru and Sensei Golden Tail. No Wisp, no Day of Destiny. It was a confusing matchup.
2-0 ME
Top 4
R1 vs Snakes
Ohh, my first snakes all day. 1st turn Leafcaller, followed by second turn Ranger looked bad for me, but he threw me off by grabbing Sacchi with a time of need. Heartbeat of Spring hits the table a turn later and I get lucky by finishing drawing a Flames of Blood Hand for the win. Next game he gets stuck on 2 mana and can only watch from there. Apparently he ran 4 Red Myojin allied with Sacchi and Heartbeat, and here I am expecting Summons with Sosuke and Seshiro. Wrong.
2-0 ME
Final
R1 vs G/R Toolbox
This deck is incredibly fast. Turn 1 Hana Kami, Turn 2 Loam Dweller, Turn 3 Kami of the Hunt, followed by Turn 4 South Tree. I almost cried. Seriously. I kept a hand with Kumano and 2 Zo-Zu not knowing what my opponent was playing (yah I'm too lazy to scout ). Needless to say when North Tree followed next turn I conceeded. Sided in Needle for South Tree and Ishi-Ishi since he was running 0 rays (okay, maybe a little scouting! ). Game 2 went quickly as I hung back blocking using the rest of my spells for the kill. 3rd game was over pretty quick as he got land flooded and I dropped 3 consecutive Houndmasters allied with a Jitte .
Conclusions
RDW is too fast for control. Control can't handle RDW when allied with Zo-Zu. It ends quickly. For the controls that play Final Judgment, don't overextend yourself. I can't stress that enough. If you don't overextend, you win. Period.
RDW worst matchup is against Aggro Snakes/MBA. RDW laughs at MBS because they kill themselves for you. All it takes is a little help from you, and not much at that. Distress/Psychic Spear are painful. They hurt and MBA runs distress frequently. Pyschic Spear is used infrequently.
MBA matches you in the early game and overpowers you in the late game. To win you have to minimize mistakes and not overextend. With Distress pulling out key facets of your game plan, you have to play carefully.
Aggro Snakes puts out too many snakes for you to deal with. I knew all along this would be a bad matchup for me, and I was lucky to face 0. I almost packed Yamabushis Storm to deal with them, but frequently Storm is rendered useless by an early dropping Seshiro. Snakes are vicious against red. The best strat is to stall the game as long as possible to punch through with DD or get an early Zo-Zu. Both work equally well.
But anyway, that's the wrap-up, if anybody else ends up going to Salt Lake, I'll see you there.
I don't think about it at all. It's too slow for RDW and doesn't fit the theme at all. Kumano fits the theme better, is a 4/4 and can target the player as well. Adamaro is also a bad fit for RDW. Now that KBC has turned aggro based, he's worthless. In the control filled world of before he was amazing, but now, he's sub-par.
I agree...it seemed like it could work for WW, but then I realized I would need 5+ mana for that to work, not to mention it would leave any Lantern Kamis untouched.
Here is a monored I'm working with a bit, trying to get some use out of my blazing shoal's... the Myojin thing was funny for a while, but as mentioned here Myojin is a dead card way too often.
This is a theory deck right now, I'll playtest it some soon though. The best way I can see getting the shoal to rock is with overblaze for one fat alphastrike. The alternative trick with overblaze is hidetsugu or blademane baku. If you can slide a blademane in for 5 dmg and overblaze it, that's not a bad deal. If you can shoal him with a hidetsugu thats 10, then overblaze and that's good game. That's a risky strike even assuming he is unblocked, a sickening shoal or a consuming vortex or ethereal haze and you're crying. Thus it could take some thinking about when to shoal, when to overblaze, etc.
I'm thinking with hidetsugu, say Your opponent is at 15 and you're at 10.... end of his turn, use hidet. he's at 8, your at 5. During your turn hidet. He's at 4, you're at 3. Then Lava spike / ray or flames of the blood or any burn spell and say good game. Unless he's holding back burn or some instant life gain of course - candle's glow?.
I understand where you're going with running Glitterfang to add counters to Blademane Baku and Bandit, but it seems like a wasted card in your deck. You don't have enough burn in your deck to clear the board for your blademanes to come through and your bandit will leave the board almost as soon as he comes into play. Maybe it's just me, but Glitterfang is worthless, even in block.
The idea was that I could blademane, bandit, drop glitterfang and a glacial ray or whatever, and have 2 counters on both my blademane and my bandit. Flip bandit, steal blockers, swing for 5 bandit + 5 blademane, pop a shoal or an overblaze (or both) to make the pain.
I was also musing about a way to make use of hidetsugu,shoal, and overblaze (the 3 cards I was kind of trying to build around) in a G/R combo instead. With mana build from tribe elders and reach shoal becomes more hard-castable, hidetsugu comes out faster, and overblaze more splicable. That would be a pretty different avenue though.
But making hidetsugu work with burn is really a matter of getting him out, keeping him alive, and not getting yourself killed before you can spin him twice. One obvious problem here is that he is kind of a foolish card with early burn, so you're not gonna want to first turn lava spike with this deck. You want to hold it, then decide whether to use it to get counters on blademane/bandit, or use it as a finisher after you use hidetsugu.
I dont think it would be a very good idea to base a deck so heavily on the hidegetsu/overblaze/shoal or whatever else. One cranial extraction and really all you have left to beat with is cunning bandit at a 2 toughness....
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Quote from Miscalcul8edRisk »
In IBTG we trust
Quote from Veserius »
Hats off to [BB18 & IBTG], you've found something that may be THE deck to beat post rotation.
I agree completely. I don't like the combo at all. Even without Extraction, often times the cards will be worthless in hand unless 2+ pieces of the puzzle are present. And with WW/MBA(S) so strong right now, you won't be able to wait and get them.
You made a mistake?
Needle blocks activated ability only, not triggerd.
You're right, my mistake. Fortunate for me it didn't matter, as I never even saw one.
@aitrus
Blazing Shoal doesn't work. It's effect doesn't counterbalance it's cost, which with Blazing Shoal usually means packing something with a 8+ cc. Not very effective at all.
Here's my experience with RDW at the PTQ in Montgomery
ROUND 1 & 2--MBA (0-2 both rounds)
Either RDW sucks against MBA, or I just didn't know what I was doing. Got stomped pretty bad, but I made some huge play errors (didn't destroy O-Naginata with Hearth Kami when possible).
ROUND 3--RDW? (2-0)
It seemed like a mirror match. Basically, we just raced each other. Game 2, I had 6 Mountains and a Kumano. I burned him with Yamabushi's Flame, then ended my turn, expecting a third Genju rush. He plays Hidetsugu's Second Rite, as I'm suddenly reminded the life totals are 14-10, his lead. I freak out for a moment, then calm down and burn myself for one with Kumano. Tragedy averted.
ROUND 4--4-Color Control (2-? Can't seem to remember for some reason)
Poor guy dropped an Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, and watched himself losing ground fast as he was land screwed. He only managed to play a Sakura-Tribe Elder and Kodama's Reach. He fared better later, but I won.
ROUND 5--4-Color Control (2-1)
This was fun. Game 1 was an easy win, Game 2 was horrendous for me (North Tree beats are savage). Game 3, I sided in Ryusei, and opening hand had both. I kept it. Eventually, he was at 2, but gaining ground quick as I was low on creature and he had North Tree. I finally hit 6 land and dropped Ryusei #1, then swarmed him with my little guys. He shoaled my dragon, cleared the field, and only played Soulless Revival on his turn. I dropped Ryusei #2, and he conceded.
ROUND 6--Another mirror (1-2)
Check Knoxville's 5th place finisher. I played this guy. I barely edged out one win, and got thoroughly stomped otherwise.
ROUND 7--WW (2-0)
I didn't even try. Kept a hand in which "less than stellar" would have been a compliment, and watched as he got 3 Lantern Kamis out by turn 2.
I had fun with it as my first serious tourney, and walked away with my entrance fee in Saviors boosters (yay for door prizes and people dropping out!).
granted you are playing mountains but the stone rain seems a bit out of place, like its just one arbitrary land d spell. you seem to have more of a RDW style build so I would probably suggest flames of the blood hand in that slot.
myojin is just clutter for blazing shoal, you will never cast it and without a shoal it is a dead card. surprisingly hidegetsugu's second rite is very solid, not at 4x, perhaps like 2.
thats 8 slots to play with, I would probably add another jitte. Im not sure how good cohort would be but I think you have more than enough guys to support him. zozu also isnt a bad md attention as it really hurts all the STK mana engine decks.
Anon - control RGW
S_C
Anon - control RGW
24 Mountain
4 Frostling
4 Hearth Kami
2 Adamaro, First to Desire
3 Zo-Zu the Punisher
2 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
4 Glacial Ray
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Yamabushi's Flame
2 Hidetsugu's Second Rite
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S_C
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Ended up first place, netting myself a 3 round bye. So, without further ado:
22 Mountain
1 Shinka, The Bloodsoaked Keep
Creatures
4 Frostling
4 Hearth Kami
4 Ronin Houndmaster
3 Zo-Zu the Punisher
2 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
4 Lava Spike
4 Glacial Ray
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Yamabushi's Flame
4 Pithing Needle
4 Torrent of Stone
4 Ishi-Ishi, Akki Crackshot
3 Gaze of Adamaro
I almost ran 4 Zo-Zu main deck, then decided there'd be more aggro than Control and ended up being right. 3 is the correct number. Also, Kumano often times ends up being used as a win more drop. Only once did he actually decide a game for me, every other time it was more of a slap in the face.
Also what do you think of Jiwari, the Earth Aflame?
To everyone: in an aggro meta (WW/MBA) do you think it could be viable to splash green for some fatties/STE/Kodama's Reach and Time of Need, or would a mono red deck like sandrock's do better?
We played 5 rounds, cutting to a top 8.
There were a total of 32 players, with most of the field playing aggro.
10 MBA/MBS
6 WW
4 G/R Spirit
4 Snakes
2 RDW
2 Myojin Flare
2 Reanimator
1 U/G Bounce
1 Ire.dec
R1 vs Ire.dec
Interesting matchup here. If Ire goes straight for my head, I lose. If he pauses for creatures, I win. Thankfully he chose plan two. An opening hand with 2 Spikes and 1 Ray gave me the win in Game 1. Game 2 Ishi-Ishi hit the board, and allied with the rest of my already rampant DD, the game soon ended. For some reason he never killed Ishi-Ishi and he left before I could ask him why!
2-0 ME
R2 vs RDW
Another mirror! His version was more sligh based, using Crack the Earth and Herder/Raider to keep his goblins pumped up. I just kept Houndmasters back to block and used frostlings to pick off creatures as they hit the board. It was quick both rounds.
2-0 ME
R3 vs MBA
Wow, was I not ready for this. I play MBS, so I figured I was ready for the MBA matchup, but I was dead wrong. A second turn Distress pulled out my Ray both games and his swarm of bleeders/oni slaves allied with O-Naginata pretty much wrecked me. Frostling was worthless after game 1 when he sided out Ogre Marauder.
2-1 Opponent
R4 vs MBS
I almost cried when Black hit the table again, but it was different this time. He ran nothing to pull cards out of my hand, and I was able to pull Flames to pick off Oni-Slaves as they came into play. He sided in Extraction game 2, but named Ryusei instead of Kumano. Kumano never hit play anyway.
2-0 ME
R5 vs Myojin Flare
All I have to say is, wow does Zo-Zu wreck control. A 4th turn Zo-Zu in both games hurt. I netted an average of 12 damage off of Zo-Zu, while taking a measly 6 myself. Not bad.
2-0 ME
End of Main
4-1
3rd Place
Top 8
R1 vs WW
No equipment. Strange to say the least. When I drew Jitte on turn 2 I almost smiled since I didn't have a hearth kami to take out his equip. But I never saw any. Jitte ran rampant both games and I never saw anything other than Isamaru and Sensei Golden Tail. No Wisp, no Day of Destiny. It was a confusing matchup.
2-0 ME
Top 4
R1 vs Snakes
Ohh, my first snakes all day. 1st turn Leafcaller, followed by second turn Ranger looked bad for me, but he threw me off by grabbing Sacchi with a time of need. Heartbeat of Spring hits the table a turn later and I get lucky by finishing drawing a Flames of Blood Hand for the win. Next game he gets stuck on 2 mana and can only watch from there. Apparently he ran 4 Red Myojin allied with Sacchi and Heartbeat, and here I am expecting Summons with Sosuke and Seshiro. Wrong.
2-0 ME
Final
R1 vs G/R Toolbox
This deck is incredibly fast. Turn 1 Hana Kami, Turn 2 Loam Dweller, Turn 3 Kami of the Hunt, followed by Turn 4 South Tree. I almost cried. Seriously. I kept a hand with Kumano and 2 Zo-Zu not knowing what my opponent was playing (yah I'm too lazy to scout ). Needless to say when North Tree followed next turn I conceeded. Sided in Needle for South Tree and Ishi-Ishi since he was running 0 rays (okay, maybe a little scouting! ). Game 2 went quickly as I hung back blocking using the rest of my spells for the kill. 3rd game was over pretty quick as he got land flooded and I dropped 3 consecutive Houndmasters allied with a Jitte .
Conclusions
RDW is too fast for control. Control can't handle RDW when allied with Zo-Zu. It ends quickly. For the controls that play Final Judgment, don't overextend yourself. I can't stress that enough. If you don't overextend, you win. Period.
RDW worst matchup is against Aggro Snakes/MBA. RDW laughs at MBS because they kill themselves for you. All it takes is a little help from you, and not much at that. Distress/Psychic Spear are painful. They hurt and MBA runs distress frequently. Pyschic Spear is used infrequently.
MBA matches you in the early game and overpowers you in the late game. To win you have to minimize mistakes and not overextend. With Distress pulling out key facets of your game plan, you have to play carefully.
Aggro Snakes puts out too many snakes for you to deal with. I knew all along this would be a bad matchup for me, and I was lucky to face 0. I almost packed Yamabushis Storm to deal with them, but frequently Storm is rendered useless by an early dropping Seshiro. Snakes are vicious against red. The best strat is to stall the game as long as possible to punch through with DD or get an early Zo-Zu. Both work equally well.
But anyway, that's the wrap-up, if anybody else ends up going to Salt Lake, I'll see you there.
I don't think about it at all. It's too slow for RDW and doesn't fit the theme at all. Kumano fits the theme better, is a 4/4 and can target the player as well. Adamaro is also a bad fit for RDW. Now that KBC has turned aggro based, he's worthless. In the control filled world of before he was amazing, but now, he's sub-par.
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Here is a monored I'm working with a bit, trying to get some use out of my blazing shoal's... the Myojin thing was funny for a while, but as mentioned here Myojin is a dead card way too often.
4 Glitterfang
4 Frostling
4 Blademane Baku
2 Cunning Bandit
2 Heartless Hidetsugu
2 Hearth Kami
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Glacial Ray
4 Lava Spike
2 Overblaze
23 mountains
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
This is a theory deck right now, I'll playtest it some soon though. The best way I can see getting the shoal to rock is with overblaze for one fat alphastrike. The alternative trick with overblaze is hidetsugu or blademane baku. If you can slide a blademane in for 5 dmg and overblaze it, that's not a bad deal. If you can shoal him with a hidetsugu thats 10, then overblaze and that's good game. That's a risky strike even assuming he is unblocked, a sickening shoal or a consuming vortex or ethereal haze and you're crying. Thus it could take some thinking about when to shoal, when to overblaze, etc.
I'm thinking with hidetsugu, say Your opponent is at 15 and you're at 10.... end of his turn, use hidet. he's at 8, your at 5. During your turn hidet. He's at 4, you're at 3. Then Lava spike / ray or flames of the blood or any burn spell and say good game. Unless he's holding back burn or some instant life gain of course - candle's glow?.
Although, as a newbie to the tournament scene, I know naught of the origins of the name.
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I understand where you're going with running Glitterfang to add counters to Blademane Baku and Bandit, but it seems like a wasted card in your deck. You don't have enough burn in your deck to clear the board for your blademanes to come through and your bandit will leave the board almost as soon as he comes into play. Maybe it's just me, but Glitterfang is worthless, even in block.
The idea was that I could blademane, bandit, drop glitterfang and a glacial ray or whatever, and have 2 counters on both my blademane and my bandit. Flip bandit, steal blockers, swing for 5 bandit + 5 blademane, pop a shoal or an overblaze (or both) to make the pain.
I was also musing about a way to make use of hidetsugu,shoal, and overblaze (the 3 cards I was kind of trying to build around) in a G/R combo instead. With mana build from tribe elders and reach shoal becomes more hard-castable, hidetsugu comes out faster, and overblaze more splicable. That would be a pretty different avenue though.
But making hidetsugu work with burn is really a matter of getting him out, keeping him alive, and not getting yourself killed before you can spin him twice. One obvious problem here is that he is kind of a foolish card with early burn, so you're not gonna want to first turn lava spike with this deck. You want to hold it, then decide whether to use it to get counters on blademane/bandit, or use it as a finisher after you use hidetsugu.
Anon - control RGW
Anon - control RGW
How the hell do you make blazing shoal work?
You're right, my mistake. Fortunate for me it didn't matter, as I never even saw one.
@aitrus
Blazing Shoal doesn't work. It's effect doesn't counterbalance it's cost, which with Blazing Shoal usually means packing something with a 8+ cc. Not very effective at all.
ROUND 1 & 2--MBA (0-2 both rounds)
Either RDW sucks against MBA, or I just didn't know what I was doing. Got stomped pretty bad, but I made some huge play errors (didn't destroy O-Naginata with Hearth Kami when possible).
ROUND 3--RDW? (2-0)
It seemed like a mirror match. Basically, we just raced each other. Game 2, I had 6 Mountains and a Kumano. I burned him with Yamabushi's Flame, then ended my turn, expecting a third Genju rush. He plays Hidetsugu's Second Rite, as I'm suddenly reminded the life totals are 14-10, his lead. I freak out for a moment, then calm down and burn myself for one with Kumano. Tragedy averted.
ROUND 4--4-Color Control (2-? Can't seem to remember for some reason)
Poor guy dropped an Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers, and watched himself losing ground fast as he was land screwed. He only managed to play a Sakura-Tribe Elder and Kodama's Reach. He fared better later, but I won.
ROUND 5--4-Color Control (2-1)
This was fun. Game 1 was an easy win, Game 2 was horrendous for me (North Tree beats are savage). Game 3, I sided in Ryusei, and opening hand had both. I kept it. Eventually, he was at 2, but gaining ground quick as I was low on creature and he had North Tree. I finally hit 6 land and dropped Ryusei #1, then swarmed him with my little guys. He shoaled my dragon, cleared the field, and only played Soulless Revival on his turn. I dropped Ryusei #2, and he conceded.
ROUND 6--Another mirror (1-2)
Check Knoxville's 5th place finisher. I played this guy. I barely edged out one win, and got thoroughly stomped otherwise.
ROUND 7--WW (2-0)
I didn't even try. Kept a hand in which "less than stellar" would have been a compliment, and watched as he got 3 Lantern Kamis out by turn 2.
I had fun with it as my first serious tourney, and walked away with my entrance fee in Saviors boosters (yay for door prizes and people dropping out!).
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Help appreciated.
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