Pretty simple to explain. It basically is a G/W Control deck, with stall cards (Final Judgment - Ghostly Prison - Sakura-tribe Elder) to wait for Ideal. You rely on your enchantments to win you the game once you play the Ideal (considering you can't play other spells after Ideal anyways).
Reverence and Meishin both stop WW, a big deck in the upcoming PTQ season. (and just other Aggro decks too)
Honden of Cleansing Fires is extremely good because it can also stall, whether it is before or after Ideal, it can be great. After Ideal, you can fetch all your Honden's to pump it up nicely.
Although I havent tested it TONS Yet, it still tests nicely. The person who influenced me to play this deck went 8-2 to W.W. and 9-1 against MBC... two of the biggest decks going to be played.
I'll come back soon enough with my own results too, but for now, what do you think of this kind of deck idea? I'm hoping to take it to the PTQ's this season.
I havent put my own touch on the sideboard, and yes I have seen a few lists use N.o.S.B. so I'm probably considering it in my list, buts here a example list I have for SB:
Thats what I'll probably be using. It was originally that but -1 NoSB and +1 Honden of Night's Reach. I changed it for my own taste. Genju of the Fields is a great stall btw if your wondering why that is there.
Looks alright, but wouldnt fit for my version (I have 4 MD Final Judgment and 4 MD Prisons)
Oh btw and yes the person who had the results of 9-1 and 8-2 did get extracted 3 times during MBC and still won. Hell, I'll just post all the results he had posted:
Enduring Ideal results:
Game 1
4-4 RDW
8-2 WW
9-1 MBC
Extracted me 3 games, still won
0-1 GWU Legendary Toolbox
Games 2&3
3-3 MBC
1 game lost to mana screw
1 game lost to mana flood
I've been testing a very similar deck but with 4 heartbeats of spring replacing the some of the controly stuff. Heartbeat allows you to hit ideal turn 4 very often. I've also found kagemaro's clutch to be a great one shot creature removal. One NoSB in MD helps a lot. I personaly have never lost a game after an ideal going off.
Sideboard 2 wouldn't work for your deck anyway, given that you would NEVER be able to cast Dominion or Swarm. Do you really need Reverence AND Meishin? I mean, Meishin should pretty much negate every creature in the block by itself, so unless they destroy Meishin, your Reverence really isn't all that necessary, and even if they got a few creatures big enough to swing for some damage, the Hondens should be able to handle that.
Miller: I don't think turn-3 Ideal is possible, even with Elder. You still have to use T3 to drop Heartbeat. Kagemaro's Clutch isn't a bad idea at all, to deal with some of the bigger problems.
My bad about the turn three Ideal. Still, the quicker you drop Ideal, the better shot at winning you have. I would add an extra Ideal to give a greater chance of drawing it. Four Kodama's reach might also be a good idea.
I also have been playing this deck for some time, and I love it because it completely wrecks AGGRO. Once you play Enduring Ideal, you will pretty much win. It can also go it's own against control.
However, for sideboard, I was thinking of going the route many people went at Philly. Just play a bunch of fatties sideboard! That way, post-sideboard against control, you can just beat them in the face. Sleizfer did it at Philly with much success.
I've got a PTQ this weekend and I hope to play this.
Although I'm not a fan of the deck.. I do have some constructive criticism.
I do not like Shaku in this deck. Most of your legends (Hondens) cost enough that tapping them for mana is pointless as you probably already have enough.
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Although I'm not a fan of the deck.. I do have some constructive criticism.
I do not like Shaku in this deck. Most of your legends (Hondens) cost enough that tapping them for mana is pointless as you probably already have enough.
I totally agree Raia. I have replaced those 2 slots with Cranial Extraction, which greatly improves the Hana Kami matchup and especially the Sway matchup. It also saves you against Cranial Extractions coming towards you!
Ramping up 7 mana is easy enough. If you are still weary about it, run the Heartbeat of Spring version.
The problem with running Heartbeat is that it's going to let them play a LOT of spells while you're locked out, and there's a good chance the opponent will be able to outrun you before you can set up a winning position with Ideal. WW can use Terashi's Grasp to clear out the Meishin/Reverence you fetched up with the first Ideal, then they'll play a couple more cards and beat you down with the swarem of creastures they probably played the turn you tapped out for Heartbeat. MBA/MBC will be allowed to Extract Ideal games 2 and 3 before you can play it. I think Shuko is a much better mana accel for this deck, with the help of STE. I might consider adding Kodama's Reach though.
The problem with running Heartbeat is that it's going to let them play a LOT of spells while you're locked out, and there's a good chance the opponent will be able to outrun you before you can set up a winning position with Ideal. WW can use Terashi's Grasp to clear out the Meishin/Reverence you fetched up with the first Ideal, then they'll play a couple more cards and beat you down with the swarem of creastures they probably played the turn you tapped out for Heartbeat. MBA/MBC will be allowed to Extract Ideal games 2 and 3 before you can play it. I think Shuko is a much better mana accel for this deck, with the help of STE. I might consider adding Kodama's Reach though.
because my opponent had cast heartbeat, I was able to reanimate kokusho at the end of his turn, swing for 5, and cast Iname as One, bringing another kokusho into play and sacrificing them both.This normally is not a possibility because of the double green requirement on the Iname, but with 1 tendo I was able to cover that cost. You have to be very careful when you use heartbeat.
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Worship and Ivory Mask seem to be missing from my CBS checklists...
Anyway, yeah, Extraction seems good in here. I was hoping a deck like this would come about when I saw Enduring Ideal previewed.
How valuable would a counter be in the sideboard? It seems that, if this deck catches on, White decks will board in Cleanfall and make you cry. Stopping that probably means they can't win.
This deck is suprisingly strong and has the ability to do well in the current metagame.
I played this at a PTQ and went 4-2 DROP (could of been 5-1) lost one due to a serious playing error.
I run the basic 4 Judgement, 1 Meishen Build. I'm working on something to shore up the black matchup. Against black you have only the kitsune basically since the new black is about attacking with one big creature (which prison doesn't help). The WW matchup is suprisingly good, as a well timed ghostly/judgement/kitsune can slow them down turns.
Sway = Very Good Matchup
Gifts = Bad before side, decent after side (as long as you cranial the hana/wear-away). Thinking about running needles to help with this matchup.
WW = Significantly better than 50% if you time your judgements (they are really necessary though) correctly.
MBA = For me the results were under 20% against the suicide builds against more controllish/ninja decks my results were significantly above 50%.
Paddle Legends = Good Matchup
Snakes = Good Matchup
Sideboard:
4 Kitsune Blademaster - Stops black for a bit
2 Reverence
2 Meloku
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Honor-Worn SPANKERS - In against Hokori.
2 Night Soul's Betrayal - Two slams the board for a WW wipe, or one and a reverence locks most of blacks creatures.
1 Genju of the Realm
I don't see any reason why those Epic decks posted in this section are competitive and my not
Let's see...I think the number 1 reason is that the other epics are bad. Ideal costs 3 less than Dominion (and only 2 colored mana), it lets you get something you KNOW is good, and it answers later threats quite easily with Meishin and/or Reverence. With Dominion, you don't know what you'll get. What will you use Dominion for against WW? MBA? sure, it's good in the control matchup since you can snag their few and large win conditions, but it'll get decimated in the mainstream aggro matchup. WW scoops to Reverence if it can't find Kami of Ancient Law/Terashi's Grasp, and MBA scoops to Meishin hands down.
im thinking this deck might be the way to go for block if i can get my hands on somemore white epic's we will see if not i think i may have trouble beating this thing with any stick, unless its wear away on a stick lol. but i think i will try to piece this deck together.
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one man's rant cannot change the way things work but maybe just maybe i can change the minds of just a few ppl who in turn will hopefully change the minds of a few more and they cycle will continue.
At our PTQ yesterday, and Enduring Ideal deck made Top 2. I table judged the semifinal match, which was a very lopsided win against WW. Look for the decklists from Rockville, MD this week on MTG.com's PT LA Top 8 decklists feature thingy.
Well, I'm in the process of building this deck. And if it makes any true splash in the tournament scene, then I may have accomplished one of the most lopsided trades in the history of Magic: 4 One With Nothing's for a foil Enduring Ideal. Woo.
At our PTQ yesterday, and Enduring Ideal deck made Top 2. I table judged the semifinal match, which was a very lopsided win against WW. Look for the decklists from Rockville, MD this week on MTG.com's PT LA Top 8 decklists feature thingy.
Glad to see the deck is doing well. It is currently very well metagamed as WW is a very easy matchup. Hopefully I can steal some tech from the list to help defeat the black matchup.
Any deck with a strong matchup vs. WW is halfway to beating Black Hand (I hate that name). You just need to figure out a way to recover from discard or Extraction.
Quote from Norbert88 »
I found a possible way to stop Cleanfall post-ideal. You channel Ghost-Lit Warder Discuss.
The problem with this is that it only counters unless they pay 4. By the time they would play Cleanfall (which would assumedly be 2-3 turns after Ideal) they should be around or past the 7-mana mark, so they'll be able to pay the extra 4.
Any deck with a strong matchup vs. WW is halfway to beating Black Hand (I hate that name). You just need to figure out a way to recover from discard or Extraction.
Extraction is the not the problem. The problem is WW is about swarming and MBA is about swining in with fatties equipped and dishing 6+ damage a turn. Ghostly Prison makes it so WW goes I do 2-4 damage a turn and reverence owns weenie. Now Ghostly goes MBA you get to do 6+ damage and reverence goes I do nothing.
Hi,
I Built this deck resently. after reading what is here im impressed with the new list, im new to this site so bear with me here.
my list for it is this:
creatures
4x sakura tribe elder
spells
4x kodamas reach
4x enduring ideals
enchantments
2x Honden of lifes web
2x Honden of infite rage
2x Honden of Cleasing fire
2x Honden of nights reach
2x Genju of the realm
3x Genju of the cedars
4x ghosly prison
4x cage of hands
its decent need improvement, maybe mix it up with the original deck posted here?
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This deck is growing quite popular pretty fast over at Wizards, so I thought I'd bring it over and see what you guys think.
First: the list.
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
11 Forest
5 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
//Critters
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Meloku
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Honden of Night's Reach
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
2 Honden of Infinite Rage
2 Honden of Cleansing Fire
1 Honden of Life's Web
1 Reverence
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Genju of the Realm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Final Judgment
2 Honor-Worn Shaku
//and of Course
3 Enduring Ideal
Pretty simple to explain. It basically is a G/W Control deck, with stall cards (Final Judgment - Ghostly Prison - Sakura-tribe Elder) to wait for Ideal. You rely on your enchantments to win you the game once you play the Ideal (considering you can't play other spells after Ideal anyways).
Reverence and Meishin both stop WW, a big deck in the upcoming PTQ season. (and just other Aggro decks too)
Honden of Cleansing Fires is extremely good because it can also stall, whether it is before or after Ideal, it can be great. After Ideal, you can fetch all your Honden's to pump it up nicely.
Although I havent tested it TONS Yet, it still tests nicely. The person who influenced me to play this deck went 8-2 to W.W. and 9-1 against MBC... two of the biggest decks going to be played.
I'll come back soon enough with my own results too, but for now, what do you think of this kind of deck idea? I'm hoping to take it to the PTQ's this season.
truly,
- Ixi v2
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Pithing Needle
3 Kodama of the North Tree
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Hero's Demise
2 Genju of the Fields
Thats what I'll probably be using. It was originally that but -1 NoSB and +1 Honden of Night's Reach. I changed it for my own taste. Genju of the Fields is a great stall btw if your wondering why that is there.
Heres another person's SB I found:
1 Reverence
1 Eternal Dominion
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Final Judgment
4 Cranial Extraction
3 Hero's Demise
2 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Endless Swarm
Looks alright, but wouldnt fit for my version (I have 4 MD Final Judgment and 4 MD Prisons)
Oh btw and yes the person who had the results of 9-1 and 8-2 did get extracted 3 times during MBC and still won. Hell, I'll just post all the results he had posted:
truly,
- ixi v2
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
Miller: I don't think turn-3 Ideal is possible, even with Elder. You still have to use T3 to drop Heartbeat. Kagemaro's Clutch isn't a bad idea at all, to deal with some of the bigger problems.
I also have been playing this deck for some time, and I love it because it completely wrecks AGGRO. Once you play Enduring Ideal, you will pretty much win. It can also go it's own against control.
However, for sideboard, I was thinking of going the route many people went at Philly. Just play a bunch of fatties sideboard! That way, post-sideboard against control, you can just beat them in the face. Sleizfer did it at Philly with much success.
I've got a PTQ this weekend and I hope to play this.
My Magic: The Gathering blog
I do not like Shaku in this deck. Most of your legends (Hondens) cost enough that tapping them for mana is pointless as you probably already have enough.
I totally agree Raia. I have replaced those 2 slots with Cranial Extraction, which greatly improves the Hana Kami matchup and especially the Sway matchup. It also saves you against Cranial Extractions coming towards you!
Ramping up 7 mana is easy enough. If you are still weary about it, run the Heartbeat of Spring version.
My Magic: The Gathering blog
because my opponent had cast heartbeat, I was able to reanimate kokusho at the end of his turn, swing for 5, and cast Iname as One, bringing another kokusho into play and sacrificing them both.This normally is not a possibility because of the double green requirement on the Iname, but with 1 tendo I was able to cover that cost. You have to be very careful when you use heartbeat.
Anyway, yeah, Extraction seems good in here. I was hoping a deck like this would come about when I saw Enduring Ideal previewed.
How valuable would a counter be in the sideboard? It seems that, if this deck catches on, White decks will board in Cleanfall and make you cry. Stopping that probably means they can't win.
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I played this at a PTQ and went 4-2 DROP (could of been 5-1) lost one due to a serious playing error.
I run the basic 4 Judgement, 1 Meishen Build. I'm working on something to shore up the black matchup. Against black you have only the kitsune basically since the new black is about attacking with one big creature (which prison doesn't help). The WW matchup is suprisingly good, as a well timed ghostly/judgement/kitsune can slow them down turns.
Sway = Very Good Matchup
Gifts = Bad before side, decent after side (as long as you cranial the hana/wear-away). Thinking about running needles to help with this matchup.
WW = Significantly better than 50% if you time your judgements (they are really necessary though) correctly.
MBA = For me the results were under 20% against the suicide builds against more controllish/ninja decks my results were significantly above 50%.
Paddle Legends = Good Matchup
Snakes = Good Matchup
Sideboard:
4 Kitsune Blademaster - Stops black for a bit
2 Reverence
2 Meloku
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Honor-Worn SPANKERS - In against Hokori.
2 Night Soul's Betrayal - Two slams the board for a WW wipe, or one and a reverence locks most of blacks creatures.
1 Genju of the Realm
Let's see...I think the number 1 reason is that the other epics are bad. Ideal costs 3 less than Dominion (and only 2 colored mana), it lets you get something you KNOW is good, and it answers later threats quite easily with Meishin and/or Reverence. With Dominion, you don't know what you'll get. What will you use Dominion for against WW? MBA? sure, it's good in the control matchup since you can snag their few and large win conditions, but it'll get decimated in the mainstream aggro matchup. WW scoops to Reverence if it can't find Kami of Ancient Law/Terashi's Grasp, and MBA scoops to Meishin hands down.
one man's rant cannot change the way things work but maybe just maybe i can change the minds of just a few ppl who in turn will hopefully change the minds of a few more and they cycle will continue.
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That is incorrect, you don't know how many times I've had 4 lands out a paddle and 2 hondens out just enough to cast enduring for the basic win.
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Glad to see the deck is doing well. It is currently very well metagamed as WW is a very easy matchup. Hopefully I can steal some tech from the list to help defeat the black matchup.
The problem with this is that it only counters unless they pay 4. By the time they would play Cleanfall (which would assumedly be 2-3 turns after Ideal) they should be around or past the 7-mana mark, so they'll be able to pay the extra 4.
Extraction is the not the problem. The problem is WW is about swarming and MBA is about swining in with fatties equipped and dishing 6+ damage a turn. Ghostly Prison makes it so WW goes I do 2-4 damage a turn and reverence owns weenie. Now Ghostly goes MBA you get to do 6+ damage and reverence goes I do nothing.
I Built this deck resently. after reading what is here im impressed with the new list, im new to this site so bear with me here.
my list for it is this:
creatures
4x sakura tribe elder
spells
4x kodamas reach
4x enduring ideals
enchantments
2x Honden of lifes web
2x Honden of infite rage
2x Honden of Cleasing fire
2x Honden of nights reach
2x Genju of the realm
3x Genju of the cedars
4x ghosly prison
4x cage of hands
l ands
9 forests
5 plains
4 tendos
2 islands
2 mountains
2 swamps
its decent need improvement, maybe mix it up with the original deck posted here?
Kane to Randy Orton
"Death waits for no one" Undertaker to Randy orton