Wrong, you DO win with genjus, just like I have many times. Period.
Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, in sooo many different ways. If you rely solely on Genju for the kill then don't expect to be top 8'ing with this at all, or even seeing tables 1-8 for that matter. If you don;t fetch Meishan 1st with Ideal (which you don;t because you complain its useless with Genju), you WILL shortly die thereafter, because all the aggro will see your mistake and blow there load all over the table, and kill you next turn.
If you actually expect to win with the Genju, I really, really feel sorry for you. EVERY tier one deck out there ATM can make an easy time of it when in creature-mode. Yeah, you will sure be killing WW when you swing into there Otherworld Journey . Run things that are HARD to disrupt when on the field: ie, Hondens. Fayul was right on the money in what she said, and I really hope you come to understand what makes this deck T'8, and what doesn't.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I'm certainly not saying Genjus are BAD. I maindeck them myself, even. But the honden in your primary win condition.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Neither am I, but it is NOT something to be 1st on your mind when you Ideal. 1st should usually be Mindcage, then the White Honden, then the Red, and so on and so forth. You only race with Genju if you are staring down a KoAL, so you can bait it then drop your Cage.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Actually, if you're staring down a KoAL and aren't about to die, you ask for effects at upkeep, then either hit it with a Clutch or a Mark.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Given you have;t wasted them already. Clutch is a pretty good card, but, usually I find when they have one KoAL in play, they have one in hand. I dunno why, it just always seems like it.
I dunno, I think I would rather keep the Clutch for 8.5 or something, and not waste it on a KoAL. Just bait it with a Red Honden or something.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Pile, how many tournaments have you taken an ideal deck to? How many timees have you met people to test the deck? So I shouldn't have made 13th at my PTQ? I shouldn't have been in position to make T8 if I hadn't made stupid Top mistake and gotten a game loss?
The first thing you grab is not the genju. No crap; you're tapped out, you wouldn't be able to use it. You go grab prison/cage/NoSB first; whatever keeps you alive. Next, if you're low on life, you go grab the white genju and activate it serveral times. Or you beat with the big genju, possibly setting up to use white/big genju on the same land. Or you go for more prisons/cages. I'm not saying the red honden isn't great in this deck, but the reason your deck loses to Gifts and WW is because you sit there behind your mind cage and wait while it takes you 7+ turns to burn out your opponent. Meantime though, they have all the opportunity in the world to draw into a way to kill your mind cage and kill you or kill your hondens.
The white Genju is very suboptimal. Against most decks, it won't do much since they can just -not attack you-, and it doesn't do -anything- most of the time you have a Cage out. Which should be Always.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
The thing is, IMO, that Cage is what makes the deck so good. I have nearly zero WW decks in my meta; there's a lot of MBA because the players are attracted to beefier creatures, the Ogre-Demon synergies, and the disruption vs. control. If I resolve Ideal vs. them, 90% of the time I win.
Pile, how many tournaments have you taken an ideal deck to? How many timees have you met people to test the deck? So I shouldn't have made 13th at my PTQ? I shouldn't have been in position to make T8 if I hadn't made stupid Top mistake and gotten a game loss?
The first thing you grab is not the genju. No crap; you're tapped out, you wouldn't be able to use it. You go grab prison/cage/NoSB first; whatever keeps you alive. Next, if you're low on life, you go grab the white genju and activate it serveral times. Or you beat with the big genju, possibly setting up to use white/big genju on the same land. Or you go for more prisons/cages. I'm not saying the red honden isn't great in this deck, but the reason your deck loses to Gifts and WW is because you sit there behind your mind cage and wait while it takes you 7+ turns to burn out your opponent. Meantime though, they have all the opportunity in the world to draw into a way to kill your mind cage and kill you or kill your hondens.
Give me your DCI number and I will see if your'e telling the truth on that, because I find it VERY hard to believe that you can even get close with the way you try to win with the deck. So far, at least one of my good freinds have T'8ed with his and a few others have gotten 9-12 with theirs, and I know exactly how they play.
You almost never, ever go aggro with Genju. Like I said, every single deck out there right now can handle that Genju no sweat, meaning you just gave them yet another chance to kill you. Plus, once they kill the Genju once, its gone forever. Genju is used in those off chances that you know they can't handle it, and you know that you can stay alive while swinging with it. How many times have I seen a Mono-Black player Sink an opponents hand to zip to negate Meishan, then swing for game when there opponent has a tapped out Genju? Plenty of times. How many times have I seen a WW player kill in one sweep after KoAL'ing there Meishan, while all there opponent has out is a tapped Genju? More then I can count.
As soon as I caught wind of the deck, I tested it for about a month, straight. For you to come here and claim how you do it is superb, while pretty much everyone else knowing its not, is insulting. The deck is CONTROL, not aggro, and going Aggro with the Genju just gives your opponent a prime opportunity to win after you casted Ideal, which should not be the case. If you ARE telling the truth on the 13th thing (which I highly doubt you are), please let me know where you live so I can attend some PTQ's over there because it sounds like easy pickings.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
YOU were the one who was insulting and claiming to have THE superb deck:
"Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, in sooo many different ways. If you rely solely on Genju for the kill then don't expect to be top 8'ing with this at all, or even seeing tables 1-8 for that matter. "
You're two scenarios only strengthen my argument. Your hand can still be trashed or the Mind Cage can still be KoAL'ed, and your opponent can swing for the win regardless of whether or not you're running genju. However, if you're waiting 10 turns to burn them out, you're just givving them longer to do it. Also, if you have a mind cage out, your genju is NOT going to be tapped. No one with any play skill is going to attack with their 1/12 trampler.
Most deks do not have an answer sitting in hand for the genju. Gifts usually doesn't MD hero's demise or rend spirit (or even run them in SB). They also have to be untapped. Most aren't expecting any creatures at this point, so why be untapped unless its GG for wear away? But that won't stop it from attacking at least once. Yes, OJ (which is not exactly auto included in every WW build) can hurt you if they didn't use it save a creature from being Judged away. I run two copies in my deck. Yes, black hand can take out the Genju w/its 4 demises, but its mono black, and they can't really handle 3 prisons, cages, and the white honden-yes, i like sitting behind my enchantments and winning w/red honden in this match up.
Fay- If you don't have a cage out, then you don't have to sit and wait for the opponent to swing to gain life off the genju. You swing with it .Obviously, you make the calculation before you go get it. If you can swing and activate it enough times to move out of range of a counter atttack get it, otherwise, grab a different enchantment. You can also swing with it on the same land as genju of the realms. I have completely turned games around this way, gaining 20-30 someodd life.
I was 13th at the end of swiss, moved to 15 on tieB boints after the T8 was finished.
1202 293 312 - BTW, how can you check tournaments?
RoundOpponentOutcomeRating05-07-855372, 16130 PTQ Los Angeles 05: 07/16/2005 (32K)7Chris Page Win16696Carl C Tamez Win16535Arno Stemmer Win16334James P Edwards Draw16173Dwayne Vega Win16142kyle sanchez Draw16011Terry A Holland Draw1591 DateNameLocationCoordinatorResultStatus07/16/0516130 PTQ Los A...Waco, TX , US Edward Fox 15Processed
EDIT - the formatting didn't stick after the pasting/posting, sorry
YOU were the one who was insulting and claiming to have THE superb deck:
"Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, in sooo many different ways. If you rely solely on Genju for the kill then don't expect to be top 8'ing with this at all, or even seeing tables 1-8 for that matter.
When did I say I had ths superb deck? I said your playing trategy was all wrong...
You're two scenarios only strengthen my argument. Your hand can still be trashed or the Mind Cage can still be KoAL'ed, and your opponent can swing for the win regardless of whether or not you're running genju. However, if you're waiting 10 turns to burn them out, you're just givving them longer to do it.
Wait, so you WANT to give them one more turn to have another shot at killing you, rather then letting you get board advantage asap? You seem to forget that life totals is generally not a resource. If they sare at twenty when you cast ideal (which they will be), and you are at 5, it really doesn;t make much sense to start racing them at those totals, right? Fecthing a Mind Cage, then Prison, then White Honden is usually how you stay alive vs. Aggro, NOT trying to race there full life points with something that can be OJ'ed or Shoaled without much trouble.
Also, if you have a mind cage out, your genju is NOT going to be tapped. No one with any play skill is going to attack with their 1/12 trampler.
Ok, so now it just becomes a creature that gets OJ'ed to death as soon as it trys to block. Hmmm, sooo much better...
Most deks do not have an answer sitting in hand for the genju.
Then what do they think they will be using there OJ;s and Shoals on? Sakuras? Trust me, due to lack of targets, any aggro player will be holding tricks in there hand.
Gifts usually doesn't MD hero's demise or rend spirit (or even run them in SB). They also have to be untapped.
No, they will just Yosei lock you while you are trying to race with genju. Or Kokusho-kill you, either way is kosh.
Most aren't expecting any creatures at this point, so why be untapped unless its GG for wear away? But that won't stop it from attacking at least once.
LoL, so your gameplan vs. Gifts is to deal 8 then die, right? That certaintly sounds like it...What do you thimk happens when you play Ideal? Gifts stops playing with there food and goes straight for the kill. Can you race them going 10 damage per turn and gaining ten per turn? No, I didn't think so...
Yes, OJ (which is not exactly auto included in every WW build) can hurt you if they didn't use it save a creature from being Judged away.
Yes, actually, OJ is pretty much an auto-include for ALL WW. Plus, they should;t really be hard pressed to save a creature anyway, seeing as any good aggro players shouldn;t over extend in teh 1st place... You should be Judgmenting away maybe 2, 3 creatures max.
I run two copies in my deck. Yes, black hand can take out the Genju w/its 4 demises, but its mono black, and they can't really handle 3 prisons, cages, and the white honden-yes, i like sitting behind my enchantments and winning w/red honden in this match up.
And all of this taking 6 turns of staying alive. If you fetch Genju 1st, thats a wasted Ideal, and just another chance for them to race your clock. Whereas if you fetc something like Cage or Prison 1st, that is an immeadiete soft lock on them, making it that much harder for them to race your ideal clock.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
You said my game plan was wrong, even though I've already shown it can win, with no proof that your plan was any better. You said you 'felt sorry for me if i planned on winning' with the genju. You were VERY insulting and you've got nothing to back up your statements. I gave my DCI number, i posted the results of the tournament. What do you have to say to that? You conviently ignore the fact that my game plan which, according to you, is clearly "Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong" did very well at a large tournament.
I've never said you grab the genju on the first ideal. You gain board position. Read my posts (you obviously haven't). I NEVER SAID YOU GRAB THE GENJU FIRST. You swing with genju on the NEXT turn IF you'er stable enough, otherwise you go grab something else to keep you alive. Yeah, a Yosei lock sucks. But I can just as easily say "how do you plan on dealing with a recurring Hana Kami/wear away lock?" What do you do when they kill the 2-3 red hondens you run? Give up? Because you're going to deck yourself at that point. Have you REALLY ever played a game with this deck? Are you capable of calculating the number of turns it will take for you to win with the red honden AFTER you've stabalized? Do you see how long that gives them to top deck an answer?
I've never said to run the genju with the mind cage. You came up with the absurd scenario and you assumed you'd want to attack with the genju.
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You're two scenarios only strengthen my argument. Your hand can still be trashed or the Mind Cage can still be KoAL'ed, and your opponent can swing for the win regardless of whether or not you're running genju. However, if you're waiting 10 turns to burn them out, you're just givving them longer to do it.
Wait, so you WANT to give them one more turn to have another shot at killing you, rather then letting you get board advantage asap? You seem to forget that life totals is generally not a resource. If they sare at twenty when you cast ideal (which they will be), and you are at 5, it really doesn;t make much sense to start racing them at those totals, right? Fecthing a Mind Cage, then Prison, then White Honden is usually how you stay alive vs. Aggro, NOT trying to race there full life points with something that can be OJ'ed or Shoaled without much trouble
Wait, so you can't see that I stabalize FIRST, and then I don't give them the SEVEN turns to kill me like you do when you sit behind your red honden?
No, I don't expect gifts to stop playing. But once you stabalize (a NoSB, a prison, black and white honden to stop any recuring, whatever it takes) yes, I expect to take them down a lot faster than you will burn them out. If they're gaining 10 a turn (your scenario), they're recuring 2 kokushos every turn, which means they'll still be gaining 10 and causing 10 life loss even with your mind cage out.
Check the top 8 deck lists before you make statement like "OJ is included in ALL WW builds that are good." You'll see that although it is VERY popular, its definitely not in all good WW builds. That's also part of the stabalizing. If you can grab the black honden 2nd Ideal, go for it. Don't leave any question about what they're holding in their hand. Also, when's the last time you saw a white shoal deal 12 damage? Yeah, its not going to take out my genju, at worst it will deal 4 damage to me if hokori is pitched to it. The black shoal is more threatening.
You said my game plan was wrong, even though I've already shown it can win, with no proof that your plan was any better.
I should really have you talk to a few of my freinds that play this deck. They know it inside and out, and can actually give you play by plays where Genju would not have helped whatsoever. I play enough with this deck (every other day, as a matter of fact), and I have only killed/been killed with it maybe 4 times.
I've never said you grab the genju on the first ideal. You gain board position. Read my posts you (you obviously haven't). I NEVER SAID YOU GRAB THE GENJU FIRST. You swing with genju on the NEXT turn IF you'er stable enough, otherwise you go grab something else to keep you alive.
And by the time you are stable enough, it is just generally better to grab another stall out card. You need to make it so that there is no possible way for aggro to pull it out after you ideal. Fetching Genju anywhere between the 4-5th time it goes off is not a way to do this. I admit, I did jump to conclusions on the Genju 1st thing, but, see, the only reason why I assumed as I did was because that is pretty much the only time it will do anything. It won;t do much at all, but it will do more then if you have that and triple Prison, and the Black, Red, and White Honden out.
Your logic does not make since. You say that your main kill is the Genju, yet you say you make board advantage by that time. By the time you already have enouhg board advantage, they are dead. By this point grabbing the Genju is a useless strategy, because all it does it waste another Ideal drop (a 3rd or 4th prison at this point would prolly do better), and just give them another chance to Shoal it away. Remember, if your playing vs. aggro, you will be pretty low by the time you gain back advantage. Once this happens, unless at least 5 turns have passed with a White Hondedn out, you will be in range to die to a shoal.
Yeah, a Yosei lock sucks. But I can just as easily say "how do you plan on dealing with a recurring Hana Kami/wear away lock?"
Either way, you scoop. However, at least you can do things if with the Hondens if thye don;t happen to have the lock. No matter what lock, Genju is garbage.
What do you do when they kill the 2 red hondens you run? Give up? Because you're going to deck yourself at that point.
The same exact thing applies to your Genju, no matter what turn after Ideal it's casted. Even then, at least Honden can put some pressure on them, whereas Genju is really something they don't have to freat that much about, because it doesn't get insane with 2 other Genjues out, as the Hondens do.
Have you REALLY ever played a game with this deck? Are you capable of calculating the number of turns it will take for you to win with the red honden AFTER you've stabalized? Do you see how long that gives them to top deck an answer?
Actually, yes, I have. On average, you win (if you win at all), 7 turns after you cast it. If Genju is casted on anywhere between turns 4-7, it is a useless card, meaning that it does nothing for you to stay alive. As soon as you set it off, Gifts and you start to race. Unless you try the control route, they almost always iwn the race.
I've never said to run the genju with the mind cage. You came up with the absurd scenario and assumed you'd want to attack with the genju.
Absurd? I know you wouldn''t swing with a Mindcage out, you woul dbe blocking. The thing is, what would you rather have with a Mindcage out on the field: A 1/12 Genju or a Prison? Hmmm...tough one.
No, I don't expect gifts to stop playing. But once you stabalize (a NoSB a prison, black and white honden to stop any recuring, whatever it takes) yes, I expect to take them down a lot faster than you will burn them out. If they're gaining 10 a turn (your scenario), they're recuring 2 kokushos every turn, which means they'll still be gaining 10 and causing 10 life loss even with your mind cage out.
But at least you'll be gaining somewhere in the ballpark of 4-6, whereas Genju will do nothing in any of these cases, except sit there.
Check the top 8 deck lists before you make statement like "OJ is included in ALL WW builds that are good." You'll see that although it is VERY popular, its definitely not in everything. That's also part of the stabalizing. If you can grab the black honden 2nd Ideal, go for it.
I do check them, and out of the 1st twenty I browsed by only 2 was absent with them. You do the math. I t is obvious that WW with OJ does better than WW with Judgement/Blessed Breath/Whatever else thye replace it with. Thats all I need to know. So, let me get this straight: Now you are saying that you might even *consider* the possibilty of grabbing the Black Honden vs. aggro on the second pull? Now I think your just stretching your argument to cover all the holes, because that is incredibly stupid to do.
Also, when's the last time you saw a white shoal deal 12 damage?
It doesn't need to deal 12. It needs to deal enough to kill you.
Yeah, its not going to take out my genju, at worst it will deal 4 damage to me if hokori is pitched to it.
And how high do you think you will be after you ideal? Not very. After you stabilize, the game should be unwinnable for them, making the Genju a win more card in most cases.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ideal should run 1 or 2, but trying to use it as your main win condition is just not how the deck wins.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
I should really have you talk to a few of my freinds that play this deck. They know it inside and out, and can actually give you play by plays where Genju would not have helped whatsoever. I play enough with this deck (every other day, as a matter of fact), and I have only killed/been killed with it maybe 4 times.
And by the time you are stable enough, it is just generally better to grab another stall out card. You need to make it so that there is no possible way for aggro to pull it out after you ideal. Fetching Genju anywhere between the 4-5th time it goes off is not a way to do this. I admit, I did jump to conclusions on the Genju 1st thing, but, see, the only reason why I assumed as I did was because that is pretty much the only time it will do anything. It won;t do much at all, but it will do more then if you have that and triple Prison, and the Black, Red, and White Honden out.
I do pull the red honden out. I should probably make this clear; that's why there are 2 copies in my deck. But it almost never does enough damage by itself to kill my oppoent. Most of the time I trample over for 12+ damage, and it would take the red honden 4 turns to do that, givving the opponent 4 more turns to draw an answer.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
Your logic does not make since. You say that your main kill is the Genju, yet you say you make board advantage by that time. By the time you already have enouhg board advantage, they are dead. By this point grabbing the Genju is a useless strategy, because all it does it waste another Ideal drop (a 3rd or 4th prison at this point would prolly do better), and just give them another chance to Shoal it away. Remember, if your playing vs. aggro, you will be pretty low by the time you gain back advantage. Once this happens, unless at least 5 turns have passed with a White Hondedn out, you will be in range to die to a shoal.
How are they dead by the time you gain board advantage? The only way you could have been dealing damage all this time is if you'd grabbed the red honden on the 1sr or 2nd Ideal, which you realize would be as a big a mistake as grabbing the Genju too quickly. You got prisons, cages, mind cages, out to gain control. You haven't even begun to kill them.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
Either way, you scoop. However, at least you can do things if with the Hondens if thye don;t happen to have the lock. No matter what lock, Genju is garbage.
The same exact thing applies to your Genju, no matter what turn after Ideal it's casted. Even then, at least Honden can put some pressure on them, whereas Genju is really something they don't have to freat that much about, because it doesn't get insane with 2 other Genjues out, as the Hondens do.
Genju swings for 8 the turn you play it even if they have the hana kami lock. Red Honden only does three the turn after you play it (4 if you happen to run the green honden and pull it).
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
Actually, yes, I have. On average, you win (if you win at all), 7 turns after you cast it.
You win 7 turns after you cast Ideal? Impossible.
Cast Ideal (0): grab w honden
(1) grab black honden
(2) grab red honden
(3) stack effects, grab green honden, deal 4
(4, 5, 6, 7) deal 4 each, for a total of 20 by the 7th turn after casting Ideal.
Hmm...so what happened to all of your stabalizing there? That doesn't give any turns to grab mind cage, prisons, ect. How familar are you with this deck again? Do you REALLY have any knowledge about what you're talking about, because if you did, you would NEVER have said you, ON AVERAGE (meaning sometimes EVEN FASTER), win 7 turns after you Ideal.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
Absurd? I know you wouldn''t swing with a Mindcage out, you woul dbe blocking. The thing is, what would you rather have with a Mindcage out on the field: A 1/12 Genju or a Prison? Hmmm...tough one.
I wouldn't grab the mind cage in the first place. I would grab a prison, then probably another, or NoSB. Hell, then maybe another prison or spend 2 more turns grabbing hondens. Then I'd grab the genju, so that by turn 4 or 5 after ideal I can start swinging.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
I do check them, and out of the 1st twenty I browsed by only 2 was absent with them. You do the math. I t is obvious that WW with OJ does better than WW with Judgement/Blessed Breath/Whatever else thye replace it with. Thats all I need to know.
Yes, OJ is popular and good, but the most recent week only has 2/3 of the WW decks running it.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
So, let me get this straight: Now you are saying that you might even *consider* the possibilty of grabbing the Black Honden vs. aggro on the second pull? Now I think your just stretching your argument to cover all the holes, because that is incredibly stupid to do.
Its all calculated, something you have trouble with. If they're playing ww, a lot of the time 1 prison is enough to stop them from attacking with most of their creatures. If you can go ahead and grab the black honden (obviously, checking your life total first), do it. If not, grab another prison. They're hand will likely be close to empty, so when you do grab the black honden, you're going to get their OJ or shoal. Then you can freely swing with genju.
Quote from {G}PiLeDrIvEr »
It doesn't need to deal 12. It needs to deal enough to kill you.
And how high do you think you will be after you ideal? Not very. After you stabilize, the game should be unwinnable for them, making the Genju a win more card in most cases.
If you're stable, you're either trashing their hand and/or you're gaining life, and you've stopped them from attacking; otherwise you're not really stable now are you? Assuming smart play, you don't grab and swing with a genju if you're at 4 life and they have 2-3 cards in hand.
No, Genju is not a win more card. You will not have them completely shut down. The longer you let them live, the more likely it is they will draw into KoAL, Onnas, or cleanfalls, and attack and kill you. Genju is a win before they do card.
I do pull the red honden out. I should probably make this clear; that's why there are 2 copies in my deck. But it almost never does enough damage by itself to kill my oppoent. Most of the time I trample over for 12+ damage, and it would take the red honden 4 turns to do that, givving the opponent 4 more turns to draw an answer.
Wait, so you are basically saying this: You would rather kill with Genju because it gets the job done faster, right? Am I the only one who notices htis is a control deck? It doesn't matter if they can find an answer, the point is that Genju is ten times more vulnerable then a triggered enchanment, beings that
a.) Its an enchanment
b.) It turns a land (big thing right there) into a creature, and
c.) Once its gone, its gone for good.
Put all of those together and you have a very, very fragile win condition. At least the Hondens aren't killed by any stray OJ, Hero's Demise, or any other stray combat trick.
How are they dead by the time you gain board advantage? The only way you could have been dealing damage all this time is if you'd grabbed the red honden on the 1sr or 2nd Ideal, which you realize would be as a big a mistake as grabbing the Genju too quickly. You got prisons, cages, mind cages, out to gain control. You haven't even begun to kill them.
You seem to forget that with this deck, gaining control with it and having your opponent dead is one and the same. After you have board control, there is pretty much no chance for them to come back, meaning that all the other turns are left just shooting htem to the head. The 2 are one and the same. You should know that if you play this deck as well as you claim to.
Genju swings for 8 the turn you play it even if they have the hana kami lock. Red Honden only does three the turn after you play it (4 if you happen to run the green honden and pull it).
And then is promptly removed. It goes back to it being too fragile as a win condition, beings that it becomes both enchament AND creature, meing it picks up the stray hate from both.
You win 7 turns after you cast Ideal? Impossible.
Cast Ideal (0): grab w honden
(1) grab black honden
(2) grab red honden
(3) stack effects, grab green honden, deal 4
(4, 5, 6, 7) deal 4 each, for a total of 20 by the 7th turn after casting Ideal.
Again, you should know that gaining control with this deck is the same as killing. Usually on turn 6-7 after an Ideal is casted, the chance of them coming back is pretty much zero. The *only* card I can think that can make a turnback is Cleanfall, which has been absent from most W based builds sideboards for a long time, especially WW, beings as they don't see Ideal as a threat.
You claim you play with this deck, yet you donlt understand that you win once you have triple Prisons out with a Mindcage.
I wouldn't grab the mind cage in the first place. I would grab a prison, then probably another, or NoSB.
What?! I'm sorry, but after reading that I lost what little respect I had for your opinion. Not grabbing Mindcage after an Ideal is insane, beings that any aggro player can pay 4-6 by that time, and bash you in the face with an equipped Yukora or Ink-Eyes.
Yes, OJ is popular and good, but the most recent week only has 2/3 of the WW decks running it.
You want to know why? Because PT: LA's PTQ's are wrapping up, meaning everybody is franitcally trying to find that 'new tech' for there decks. I know plenty of my freinds doing the same things. Juts because its new doesn't mean its good.
If they're playing ww, a lot of the time 1 prison is enough to stop them from attacking with most of their creatures.
Not really. By the time you pop off Ideal, you are low. Don;t even try arguing otherwise, because you would sound like a total nutcase bofoon if you did. Its not incredibly hard for them to equip all there stray equipment on 2 creatures, and swing for game. This goes tenfold if thye have Jitte out. Again, whats more helpful in this sitch? A passable soft lock, or a global-lock that gives all creatures roughly -4/-4? I would guess the latter, and most other players owuld guess the latter right along with me.
If you can go ahead and grab the black honden (obviously, checking your life total first), do it. If not, grab another prison. They're hand will likely be close to empty, so when you do grab the black honden, you're going to get their OJ or shoal. Then you can freely swing with genju.
Meaning that for 3 turns, you put yourself at extreme risk of dying, simply because you wanted to kill with Genju. Whereas, if you went straight for control, they would be locked, with almost no chance of coming back from it. I think even you can understand what's wrong with what you are trying to imply.
If you're stable, you're either trashing their hand and/or you're gaining life, and you've stopped them from attacking;
Something that you yourself said can be attained unless fetching numerous lock cards. Where does that leave you the time to go fetch Genju? It doesn't, ESPECIALLY seeing as how you now are saying you need the Black Honden to back it up (For reference, the black Honden is NOT a lock mechanism).
No, Genju is not a win more card. You will not have them completely shut down. The longer you let them live, the more likely it is they will draw into KoAL, Onnas, or cleanfalls, and attack and kill you. Genju is a win before they do card.
Yeah, and by your own accord, its a win that takes at least another grab from Ideal and waiting for an empty hand to work right . Honestly, by that time, they should be close to death, if not dead already. Plus, a late game Niko-Onna or KoAL would barely hurt, especially that late after an Ideal. The only thing that would do some damage would be a Cleanfall, but thats been absent in many WW builds because it was generally a useless SB card, seeing as Ideal is not very numerous in number. Even then, the best play, if a good player has reason to fear Cleanfall, they should grab the Green Honden 3rd pick, just so they have enough umph after the cleanfall and stall aswell so they can set the lock back up without dying before hand. In every situation Genju would be a bad Ideal pick. There is only ONE or two scenarios where I have seen Genju actually do more then just get blown up or become a wall. Thats not a very good batting record, is it? Especially consider what you are saying about it being your main win.
Jace on the other hand gives you card advantage for no life cost. On the contrary, Jace can actually take some damage for you. I'd think that makes him better than Arena.
Piledriver is absolutely right. Trust me: I developed the deck a long time ago and had played it exhaustively before it had even made ripples on the PTQ scene. -GENJU IS NOT YOUR WIN CONDITION-. Some of my builds that have done very well have phased Genju to the sideboard altogether. You win the game by completely neutering the board with your ideal before dropping a Red Honden, period.
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Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, in sooo many different ways. If you rely solely on Genju for the kill then don't expect to be top 8'ing with this at all, or even seeing tables 1-8 for that matter. If you don;t fetch Meishan 1st with Ideal (which you don;t because you complain its useless with Genju), you WILL shortly die thereafter, because all the aggro will see your mistake and blow there load all over the table, and kill you next turn.
If you actually expect to win with the Genju, I really, really feel sorry for you. EVERY tier one deck out there ATM can make an easy time of it when in creature-mode. Yeah, you will sure be killing WW when you swing into there Otherworld Journey . Run things that are HARD to disrupt when on the field: ie, Hondens. Fayul was right on the money in what she said, and I really hope you come to understand what makes this deck T'8, and what doesn't.
I dunno, I think I would rather keep the Clutch for 8.5 or something, and not waste it on a KoAL. Just bait it with a Red Honden or something.
The first thing you grab is not the genju. No crap; you're tapped out, you wouldn't be able to use it. You go grab prison/cage/NoSB first; whatever keeps you alive. Next, if you're low on life, you go grab the white genju and activate it serveral times. Or you beat with the big genju, possibly setting up to use white/big genju on the same land. Or you go for more prisons/cages. I'm not saying the red honden isn't great in this deck, but the reason your deck loses to Gifts and WW is because you sit there behind your mind cage and wait while it takes you 7+ turns to burn out your opponent. Meantime though, they have all the opportunity in the world to draw into a way to kill your mind cage and kill you or kill your hondens.
Give me your DCI number and I will see if your'e telling the truth on that, because I find it VERY hard to believe that you can even get close with the way you try to win with the deck. So far, at least one of my good freinds have T'8ed with his and a few others have gotten 9-12 with theirs, and I know exactly how they play.
You almost never, ever go aggro with Genju. Like I said, every single deck out there right now can handle that Genju no sweat, meaning you just gave them yet another chance to kill you. Plus, once they kill the Genju once, its gone forever. Genju is used in those off chances that you know they can't handle it, and you know that you can stay alive while swinging with it. How many times have I seen a Mono-Black player Sink an opponents hand to zip to negate Meishan, then swing for game when there opponent has a tapped out Genju? Plenty of times. How many times have I seen a WW player kill in one sweep after KoAL'ing there Meishan, while all there opponent has out is a tapped Genju? More then I can count.
As soon as I caught wind of the deck, I tested it for about a month, straight. For you to come here and claim how you do it is superb, while pretty much everyone else knowing its not, is insulting. The deck is CONTROL, not aggro, and going Aggro with the Genju just gives your opponent a prime opportunity to win after you casted Ideal, which should not be the case. If you ARE telling the truth on the 13th thing (which I highly doubt you are), please let me know where you live so I can attend some PTQ's over there because it sounds like easy pickings.
"Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong, in sooo many different ways. If you rely solely on Genju for the kill then don't expect to be top 8'ing with this at all, or even seeing tables 1-8 for that matter. "
You're two scenarios only strengthen my argument. Your hand can still be trashed or the Mind Cage can still be KoAL'ed, and your opponent can swing for the win regardless of whether or not you're running genju. However, if you're waiting 10 turns to burn them out, you're just givving them longer to do it. Also, if you have a mind cage out, your genju is NOT going to be tapped. No one with any play skill is going to attack with their 1/12 trampler.
Most deks do not have an answer sitting in hand for the genju. Gifts usually doesn't MD hero's demise or rend spirit (or even run them in SB). They also have to be untapped. Most aren't expecting any creatures at this point, so why be untapped unless its GG for wear away? But that won't stop it from attacking at least once. Yes, OJ (which is not exactly auto included in every WW build) can hurt you if they didn't use it save a creature from being Judged away. I run two copies in my deck. Yes, black hand can take out the Genju w/its 4 demises, but its mono black, and they can't really handle 3 prisons, cages, and the white honden-yes, i like sitting behind my enchantments and winning w/red honden in this match up.
Fay- If you don't have a cage out, then you don't have to sit and wait for the opponent to swing to gain life off the genju. You swing with it .Obviously, you make the calculation before you go get it. If you can swing and activate it enough times to move out of range of a counter atttack get it, otherwise, grab a different enchantment. You can also swing with it on the same land as genju of the realms. I have completely turned games around this way, gaining 20-30 someodd life.
I was 13th at the end of swiss, moved to 15 on tieB boints after the T8 was finished.
1202 293 312 - BTW, how can you check tournaments?
Round Opponent Outcome Rating05-07-855372, 16130 PTQ Los Angeles 05: 07/16/2005 (32K)7Chris Page Win16696Carl C Tamez Win16535Arno Stemmer Win16334James P Edwards Draw16173Dwayne Vega Win16142kyle sanchez Draw16011Terry A Holland Draw1591
Date Name Location Coordinator Result Status07/16/0516130 PTQ Los A...Waco, TX , US Edward Fox 15Processed
EDIT - the formatting didn't stick after the pasting/posting, sorry
When did I say I had ths superb deck? I said your playing trategy was all wrong...
Wait, so you WANT to give them one more turn to have another shot at killing you, rather then letting you get board advantage asap? You seem to forget that life totals is generally not a resource. If they sare at twenty when you cast ideal (which they will be), and you are at 5, it really doesn;t make much sense to start racing them at those totals, right? Fecthing a Mind Cage, then Prison, then White Honden is usually how you stay alive vs. Aggro, NOT trying to race there full life points with something that can be OJ'ed or Shoaled without much trouble.
Ok, so now it just becomes a creature that gets OJ'ed to death as soon as it trys to block. Hmmm, sooo much better...
Then what do they think they will be using there OJ;s and Shoals on? Sakuras? Trust me, due to lack of targets, any aggro player will be holding tricks in there hand.
No, they will just Yosei lock you while you are trying to race with genju. Or Kokusho-kill you, either way is kosh.
LoL, so your gameplan vs. Gifts is to deal 8 then die, right? That certaintly sounds like it...What do you thimk happens when you play Ideal? Gifts stops playing with there food and goes straight for the kill. Can you race them going 10 damage per turn and gaining ten per turn? No, I didn't think so...
Yes, actually, OJ is pretty much an auto-include for ALL WW. Plus, they should;t really be hard pressed to save a creature anyway, seeing as any good aggro players shouldn;t over extend in teh 1st place... You should be Judgmenting away maybe 2, 3 creatures max.
And all of this taking 6 turns of staying alive. If you fetch Genju 1st, thats a wasted Ideal, and just another chance for them to race your clock. Whereas if you fetc something like Cage or Prison 1st, that is an immeadiete soft lock on them, making it that much harder for them to race your ideal clock.
I've never said you grab the genju on the first ideal. You gain board position. Read my posts (you obviously haven't). I NEVER SAID YOU GRAB THE GENJU FIRST. You swing with genju on the NEXT turn IF you'er stable enough, otherwise you go grab something else to keep you alive. Yeah, a Yosei lock sucks. But I can just as easily say "how do you plan on dealing with a recurring Hana Kami/wear away lock?" What do you do when they kill the 2-3 red hondens you run? Give up? Because you're going to deck yourself at that point. Have you REALLY ever played a game with this deck? Are you capable of calculating the number of turns it will take for you to win with the red honden AFTER you've stabalized? Do you see how long that gives them to top deck an answer?
I've never said to run the genju with the mind cage. You came up with the absurd scenario and you assumed you'd want to attack with the genju.
Wait, so you can't see that I stabalize FIRST, and then I don't give them the SEVEN turns to kill me like you do when you sit behind your red honden?
No, I don't expect gifts to stop playing. But once you stabalize (a NoSB, a prison, black and white honden to stop any recuring, whatever it takes) yes, I expect to take them down a lot faster than you will burn them out. If they're gaining 10 a turn (your scenario), they're recuring 2 kokushos every turn, which means they'll still be gaining 10 and causing 10 life loss even with your mind cage out.
Check the top 8 deck lists before you make statement like "OJ is included in ALL WW builds that are good." You'll see that although it is VERY popular, its definitely not in all good WW builds. That's also part of the stabalizing. If you can grab the black honden 2nd Ideal, go for it. Don't leave any question about what they're holding in their hand. Also, when's the last time you saw a white shoal deal 12 damage? Yeah, its not going to take out my genju, at worst it will deal 4 damage to me if hokori is pitched to it. The black shoal is more threatening.
I should really have you talk to a few of my freinds that play this deck. They know it inside and out, and can actually give you play by plays where Genju would not have helped whatsoever. I play enough with this deck (every other day, as a matter of fact), and I have only killed/been killed with it maybe 4 times.
And by the time you are stable enough, it is just generally better to grab another stall out card. You need to make it so that there is no possible way for aggro to pull it out after you ideal. Fetching Genju anywhere between the 4-5th time it goes off is not a way to do this. I admit, I did jump to conclusions on the Genju 1st thing, but, see, the only reason why I assumed as I did was because that is pretty much the only time it will do anything. It won;t do much at all, but it will do more then if you have that and triple Prison, and the Black, Red, and White Honden out.
Your logic does not make since. You say that your main kill is the Genju, yet you say you make board advantage by that time. By the time you already have enouhg board advantage, they are dead. By this point grabbing the Genju is a useless strategy, because all it does it waste another Ideal drop (a 3rd or 4th prison at this point would prolly do better), and just give them another chance to Shoal it away. Remember, if your playing vs. aggro, you will be pretty low by the time you gain back advantage. Once this happens, unless at least 5 turns have passed with a White Hondedn out, you will be in range to die to a shoal.
Either way, you scoop. However, at least you can do things if with the Hondens if thye don;t happen to have the lock. No matter what lock, Genju is garbage.
The same exact thing applies to your Genju, no matter what turn after Ideal it's casted. Even then, at least Honden can put some pressure on them, whereas Genju is really something they don't have to freat that much about, because it doesn't get insane with 2 other Genjues out, as the Hondens do.
Actually, yes, I have. On average, you win (if you win at all), 7 turns after you cast it. If Genju is casted on anywhere between turns 4-7, it is a useless card, meaning that it does nothing for you to stay alive. As soon as you set it off, Gifts and you start to race. Unless you try the control route, they almost always iwn the race.
Absurd? I know you wouldn''t swing with a Mindcage out, you woul dbe blocking. The thing is, what would you rather have with a Mindcage out on the field: A 1/12 Genju or a Prison? Hmmm...tough one.
But at least you'll be gaining somewhere in the ballpark of 4-6, whereas Genju will do nothing in any of these cases, except sit there.
I do check them, and out of the 1st twenty I browsed by only 2 was absent with them. You do the math. I t is obvious that WW with OJ does better than WW with Judgement/Blessed Breath/Whatever else thye replace it with. Thats all I need to know. So, let me get this straight: Now you are saying that you might even *consider* the possibilty of grabbing the Black Honden vs. aggro on the second pull? Now I think your just stretching your argument to cover all the holes, because that is incredibly stupid to do.
It doesn't need to deal 12. It needs to deal enough to kill you.
And how high do you think you will be after you ideal? Not very. After you stabilize, the game should be unwinnable for them, making the Genju a win more card in most cases.
Don't get me wrong, I think Ideal should run 1 or 2, but trying to use it as your main win condition is just not how the deck wins.
I do pull the red honden out. I should probably make this clear; that's why there are 2 copies in my deck. But it almost never does enough damage by itself to kill my oppoent. Most of the time I trample over for 12+ damage, and it would take the red honden 4 turns to do that, givving the opponent 4 more turns to draw an answer.
How are they dead by the time you gain board advantage? The only way you could have been dealing damage all this time is if you'd grabbed the red honden on the 1sr or 2nd Ideal, which you realize would be as a big a mistake as grabbing the Genju too quickly. You got prisons, cages, mind cages, out to gain control. You haven't even begun to kill them.
Genju swings for 8 the turn you play it even if they have the hana kami lock. Red Honden only does three the turn after you play it (4 if you happen to run the green honden and pull it).
You win 7 turns after you cast Ideal? Impossible.
Cast Ideal (0): grab w honden
(1) grab black honden
(2) grab red honden
(3) stack effects, grab green honden, deal 4
(4, 5, 6, 7) deal 4 each, for a total of 20 by the 7th turn after casting Ideal.
Hmm...so what happened to all of your stabalizing there? That doesn't give any turns to grab mind cage, prisons, ect. How familar are you with this deck again? Do you REALLY have any knowledge about what you're talking about, because if you did, you would NEVER have said you, ON AVERAGE (meaning sometimes EVEN FASTER), win 7 turns after you Ideal.
I wouldn't grab the mind cage in the first place. I would grab a prison, then probably another, or NoSB. Hell, then maybe another prison or spend 2 more turns grabbing hondens. Then I'd grab the genju, so that by turn 4 or 5 after ideal I can start swinging.
Yes, OJ is popular and good, but the most recent week only has 2/3 of the WW decks running it.
Its all calculated, something you have trouble with. If they're playing ww, a lot of the time 1 prison is enough to stop them from attacking with most of their creatures. If you can go ahead and grab the black honden (obviously, checking your life total first), do it. If not, grab another prison. They're hand will likely be close to empty, so when you do grab the black honden, you're going to get their OJ or shoal. Then you can freely swing with genju.
If you're stable, you're either trashing their hand and/or you're gaining life, and you've stopped them from attacking; otherwise you're not really stable now are you? Assuming smart play, you don't grab and swing with a genju if you're at 4 life and they have 2-3 cards in hand.
No, Genju is not a win more card. You will not have them completely shut down. The longer you let them live, the more likely it is they will draw into KoAL, Onnas, or cleanfalls, and attack and kill you. Genju is a win before they do card.
Wait, so you are basically saying this: You would rather kill with Genju because it gets the job done faster, right? Am I the only one who notices htis is a control deck? It doesn't matter if they can find an answer, the point is that Genju is ten times more vulnerable then a triggered enchanment, beings that
a.) Its an enchanment
b.) It turns a land (big thing right there) into a creature, and
c.) Once its gone, its gone for good.
Put all of those together and you have a very, very fragile win condition. At least the Hondens aren't killed by any stray OJ, Hero's Demise, or any other stray combat trick.
You seem to forget that with this deck, gaining control with it and having your opponent dead is one and the same. After you have board control, there is pretty much no chance for them to come back, meaning that all the other turns are left just shooting htem to the head. The 2 are one and the same. You should know that if you play this deck as well as you claim to.
And then is promptly removed. It goes back to it being too fragile as a win condition, beings that it becomes both enchament AND creature, meing it picks up the stray hate from both.
Again, you should know that gaining control with this deck is the same as killing. Usually on turn 6-7 after an Ideal is casted, the chance of them coming back is pretty much zero. The *only* card I can think that can make a turnback is Cleanfall, which has been absent from most W based builds sideboards for a long time, especially WW, beings as they don't see Ideal as a threat.
You claim you play with this deck, yet you donlt understand that you win once you have triple Prisons out with a Mindcage.
What?! I'm sorry, but after reading that I lost what little respect I had for your opinion. Not grabbing Mindcage after an Ideal is insane, beings that any aggro player can pay 4-6 by that time, and bash you in the face with an equipped Yukora or Ink-Eyes.
You want to know why? Because PT: LA's PTQ's are wrapping up, meaning everybody is franitcally trying to find that 'new tech' for there decks. I know plenty of my freinds doing the same things. Juts because its new doesn't mean its good.
Not really. By the time you pop off Ideal, you are low. Don;t even try arguing otherwise, because you would sound like a total nutcase bofoon if you did. Its not incredibly hard for them to equip all there stray equipment on 2 creatures, and swing for game. This goes tenfold if thye have Jitte out. Again, whats more helpful in this sitch? A passable soft lock, or a global-lock that gives all creatures roughly -4/-4? I would guess the latter, and most other players owuld guess the latter right along with me.
Meaning that for 3 turns, you put yourself at extreme risk of dying, simply because you wanted to kill with Genju. Whereas, if you went straight for control, they would be locked, with almost no chance of coming back from it. I think even you can understand what's wrong with what you are trying to imply.
Something that you yourself said can be attained unless fetching numerous lock cards. Where does that leave you the time to go fetch Genju? It doesn't, ESPECIALLY seeing as how you now are saying you need the Black Honden to back it up (For reference, the black Honden is NOT a lock mechanism).
Yeah, and by your own accord, its a win that takes at least another grab from Ideal and waiting for an empty hand to work right . Honestly, by that time, they should be close to death, if not dead already. Plus, a late game Niko-Onna or KoAL would barely hurt, especially that late after an Ideal. The only thing that would do some damage would be a Cleanfall, but thats been absent in many WW builds because it was generally a useless SB card, seeing as Ideal is not very numerous in number. Even then, the best play, if a good player has reason to fear Cleanfall, they should grab the Green Honden 3rd pick, just so they have enough umph after the cleanfall and stall aswell so they can set the lock back up without dying before hand. In every situation Genju would be a bad Ideal pick. There is only ONE or two scenarios where I have seen Genju actually do more then just get blown up or become a wall. Thats not a very good batting record, is it? Especially consider what you are saying about it being your main win.