It performs really well in both one-on-one play and in multiplayer (which was surprising because most people told me it couldnt do more than 20 damage).
3x kuro
3x unspeakable
2x iname
2x myojin of life's web
All the spells are arcane (except Gifts), so they benefit from the gohei, as well as supplying splice outlets for the Vengance. Peer and Eerie Procession always got me the Vengeances I needed and Gifts and Iname made sure there were always reanimation targets. Casting Gifts Ungiven always meant game over. The veil of secrecy was something i threw in for the heck of it, and it served both as a splice target and a way to get that large but not trampling tora through. Im considering dropping these and a 4th tora for a bit of arcane removal.
The current lists I'm seeing lack a few things, like alternate discard options. Gifts and the cloudskater give you these. They also lack the ability to get the Vengeance(s) consistantly. What happens in a B/G build if you just dont draw a Vengeance? I don't think you can expect to win through tora beatdown.
No, I can't, and that's why I added blue to the deck. Also, we determined that Myojin of Life's Web is bad since it's just an 8/8 with no special abilities.
You may have determined the myojin is bad, but I have not. Its necessary to run 4 different big creatures if using gifts ungiven and thats why it is there. I am currently testing other creature options in that spot, but thats what I used this weekend, and it worked quite well.
If you have a better creature choice I'd love to hear it, Im all in favor of ditching him for something with a little more use, but as it stands I won't drop him for something like a dragon. Some people have suggested Ink-Eyes or Oyobi, which may be ok, but Im not convinced of those either.
And in my mind, a 5/5 Flying with a game-breaking graveyard effect that I can feasibly hardcast is a LOT better than a vanilla 8/8.
And my (our) current build DOES run 4 legends: Kuro, Kokusho, Iname, and Unspeakable. But it's not like you'll always want those. Say you have a Hana Kami in your hand. You might want to fish out a Goryo's Vengeance too, and trick the opponent into dumping that so you can bring it back.
Note the part where I said "feasibly hardcast". Kokusho is used more as a potent beatstick than a reanimation target, though you can always Splice 1 Vengeance to another, bring 2 back to play, drain 10 life, play the other Vengeance to return one of those 2 to play again, then swing for 5...but I digress. Anyway, my point is that the Dragons are good in general, just as 5/5 flyers with potentially good abilities.
Anyone though about this with through the breach
I mean they both work with the same sort of deck
big creatures, and drawing them? ryusei could be a nice dragon to breach in aswell and crack the earth for sacrifice (possibly)
I dont think this is the deck the block wants us to make. Look at the cards. Extraction for GV on turn 3 means you deck falls in a heap. It has one win left (tora beatdown).. which can be chumped, or the option of dragons (which every deck in the block in built to be able to deal with)
Honestly, I think the deck that were looking for is more resiliant... something like...
Firstly, a LOt of black decks won't be MD'ing Extraction. Second, I can justas easily Extract their Extraction turn 3. And "the deck we're looking for" is a reanimator deck, not a beatdown deck. Do you think they "wanted" us to make TNN? I greatly doubt it. It really doesn't matter what they "want" us to play, especially since they try to avoid dictating what deck you should play.
I don't see how Samurai of the Pale curtain harms the deck. It only affects permanents put into the graveyard, not discarded cards. Your reanimation targets are going to be removed from the game anyway.
with more contol spells, rends, hideous laughter, night of souls betrayl, help stop loss to weenie rush
But, no mana accel, limited discard (tora nezumi bonereader, spear, distress only)(allows toshi to be MDed?) poss turn 2 kuro (spear, vengence)
B/U
More discard and tutoring (sift, eeire, gifts,) and cloudsakter
still no more mana accel NoSb works in here sans skater, kaijin of vanishing touch an option for stall
B/g
More accel (reach, STE), and legend search (ToN) and wear away :smile2: , but little else, loses control and discard)
B/U/W
opens up hikari, otherworldly journey, day of destiny and final judgemet, but will lose serious mana consistency. loses sift and most other discard
This needs playtesting to decide which is the best option
Well, I'm getting a lot of pressure to try this deck without Green. It would eliminate the need for mana fixing, and Iname/Gifts should be all the tutoring I need. It's amazing how I could start wiht a bad B/G deck and end up with a good U/B deck. Let's work on a U/B build.
Creatures (don't really change that much) (16)
4x Kokusho, the Evening Star
4x Soratami Cloudskater
4x Kuro, Pitlord
2x Iname, Death Aspect
2x The Unspeakable
Tora won't be the next Ravager, I can almost promise that.
You bring up good questions.
1. I LOVE Kokusho in this deck, you have to play it to really understand. Most of the time, he's my late-game beatstick. I much prefer to hardcast Kokusho than reanimate him. And by some chance that I have 5 mana open, 2 Kokushos in the grave and 2 Vengeances in hand, it ends up being a 10-mana drain.
2. I agree that 2 Tops are enough, ditto on Gifts. -1 Top, -1 Gifts, +2 Hinder. I like Hinder better than Quash, and Shoal is too erratic.
3. Yeah, Quash pwns me hardcore. But then, that's what the SB will be for. And I don't think THAT many decks will pack Quash in high numbers, with Thoughtbind, Hinder, and Hisoka's Defiance in the format.
4. I just really like Ice Bridge. It smooths out early mana bumps. For example, I want UU on turn 3 for Sift Through Sands, but I might want BB soon after for Kokusho, Iname, and spliced Vengeances, and that's asking a lot when I'd only have 10-11 of each. Also, with Cloudskater, I can recharge the Bridges consistently.
KPDaly, you bring up a lot of good points. I agree with pretty much everything you say, and really didnt notice how to cloudskaters work with the tendo's ice bridges.
The thing i dont like about the deck is the Eerie processions, they take up a lot of time, and sometimes clog your draws. Do we really need them that much, or could we cut them for some more controlling cards? Let me no what you guys think.
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Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
Since the deck really needs to find a Goryo's Vengeance, it needs a way to find them other than random draws. I've come to admit that at least a couple Processions make the deck run smoother, if not faster. Ideally, I won't need to cast it, but not every game is ideal.
For curiosity's sake, what do you do (or add to sideboard) to deal with a mono-white control deck that happens to run Orb of Dreams? This negates Vengeance, leaving the tora and kokusho as your only wins (and a good argument for running kokusho I think).
I just think this matchup is going to be exceptionally tough, what kind of options do we have?
A solution to orb of dreams is to play the vengeance at end of turn, so you can untap with it etc. I would also refarin form running 4 kokusho, He is good, but he isnt our priamry win condition, and we have little accel to get him into play quickly 2-3 max
I run 2, a nice trick is to iname/tor/skater/sift them into grave and splice a vengeance at end of turn recurring 1, swing on your turn
then vengeance again, draining for 10, and giving you a chance to do it again on later turns.
Until you extensively test the deck, you can't appreciate how amazing Kokusho really is. Whenever I cast ToN in the U/B/G build, I go for Kokusho about half the time unless I'm working toward the combo.
Bignasty, you bring up a good point. Perhaps I could pull an Affinity trick, and board forests with Wear Away. In general, I think this deck should have a good matchup against MWC though.
Now, the SB comes into question though. With green in the mix, it was pretty simple, packing counters, Extraction, and Wear Away. Now what do I have?
I don't like Peer. And honestly, if I were to run Peer, I'd run Reach and Sift too, just on the off-chance that I can combo out Unspeakable. I REALLY don't think He Who Hungers in needed, and I'd like to see 4 Kokushos. Graverobber is interesting, but I'd only run 2 at most.
I didn't run the legend lands before because of the 3-color commitment and the necessity of STE. Now, running a few is fine. Cloudskater has to stay at 4, it's that important to the deck.
If you cut out the Death Aspects, what are you going to fetch with Gifts?
Ice Bridge is amazing. Truly amazing. It greatly smooths out the early-game mana.
Psy Spears MD isn't the worst idea, but I'll wait to see how the metagame looks first.
Evil is boring. The universe is friendly. Life is on your side. Joy is your birthright. Cynicism is idiotic. Fear is a bad habit. Despair is lazy. In fact, all of creation wants you to succeed. Act as if the universe is a prodigious miracle created for your amusement and illumination. Assume that secret helpers are working behind the scenes to assist you in turning into the gorgeous masterpiece you were born to be. . . Life always gives you exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.
I just want to update and say that I am still working on this, but it's Standard season right now in my area so I converted the deck to Standard for the time (and being lazy, by "converted to Standard" I mean "added Chrome Mox and City of Brass"). I'll get back on this one soon though.
Actually I like Cloudskater. I find clever ways to use it for mana acceleration, like when I only have 1 Island and need 2 for a Sift Through Sands. I can float the blue, bounce the Island with Cloudskater, and replay the island for the second blue mana I need. Same goes for the BB requirement on Kokusho and Iname, though at 6 mana with 8 multilands, you should have at least BB open. Skater is also good for recharging Tendo Ice Bridges, which comes in handy if you get stuck in a long game and actually hardcast Kuro (I've done it).
I've been considering Zombify in the deck, though not 4 of them. After all, in most cases, I don't want Kuro to hang around, and giving the creatures haste is handy for surprise kills and getting around ***.
The problem with Bosh is...how can you reliably get the red mana to fling him? Not to mention, you can't discard him to Tora since he isn't a Spirit.
Thirst for Knowledge might be better than Sift, though I do like having more things to splice GV to.
But anyway, this is the Block Constructed thread. There IS one in the Competitive Standard deck shop (though it's drastically different and IMO needs a lot of work).
One of the reasons I like 'Skater in the deck is because I can deal 18 damage on turn 4 with this deck just off Tora/Vengeance. If I played a turn-2 Skater, there's the 2 extra damage for a turn-4 win. But you may be right, it may not be necessary for 4. Maybe cut a couple for more counters.
How can you deal 18 damage on turn 4? Not doubting you, just want to know how.
I love this deck, but isn't there a better way to discard creatures than Soratami Cloudskater?
Dump Kuro to the tora,reanimate kuro with vengeance,clear opponets board with kuro's ability,swing for 18.
3x kuro
3x unspeakable
2x iname
2x myojin of life's web
4x cloudskater
4x goryo's vengeance
3x veil of secrecy
3x peer
3x gifts ungiven
3x eerie procession
4x slumbering tora
3x long-forgotten gohei
23 land
All the spells are arcane (except Gifts), so they benefit from the gohei, as well as supplying splice outlets for the Vengance. Peer and Eerie Procession always got me the Vengeances I needed and Gifts and Iname made sure there were always reanimation targets. Casting Gifts Ungiven always meant game over. The veil of secrecy was something i threw in for the heck of it, and it served both as a splice target and a way to get that large but not trampling tora through. Im considering dropping these and a 4th tora for a bit of arcane removal.
The current lists I'm seeing lack a few things, like alternate discard options. Gifts and the cloudskater give you these. They also lack the ability to get the Vengeance(s) consistantly. What happens in a B/G build if you just dont draw a Vengeance? I don't think you can expect to win through tora beatdown.
If you have a better creature choice I'd love to hear it, Im all in favor of ditching him for something with a little more use, but as it stands I won't drop him for something like a dragon. Some people have suggested Ink-Eyes or Oyobi, which may be ok, but Im not convinced of those either.
And my (our) current build DOES run 4 legends: Kuro, Kokusho, Iname, and Unspeakable. But it's not like you'll always want those. Say you have a Hana Kami in your hand. You might want to fish out a Goryo's Vengeance too, and trick the opponent into dumping that so you can bring it back.
2 [BOK] Tendo Ice Bridge
7 [CHK] Swamp (3)
8 [CHK] Island (3)
1 [CHK] Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 [CHK] Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 [CHK] Waterveil Cavern
// Creatures
3 [CHK] Kuro, Pitlord
3 [CHK] The Unspeakable
1 [CHK] Iname, Death Aspect
2 [CHK] Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 [CHK] Hikari, Twilight Guardian
// Spells
4 [BOK] Goryo's Vengeance
2 [CHK] Eerie Procession
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [BOK] Slumbering Tora
2 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
2 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 [CHK] Peer Through Depths
4 [CHK] Reach Through Mists
4 [CHK] Sift Through Sands
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CHK] Hisoka's Defiance
SB: 4 [BOK] Psychic Spear
SB: 2 [BOK] Toshiro Umezawa
SB: 3 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 2 [CHK] Night of Souls' Betrayal
Critcism welcome etc.
Anyone though about this with through the breach
I mean they both work with the same sort of deck
big creatures, and drawing them? ryusei could be a nice dragon to breach in aswell and crack the earth for sacrifice (possibly)
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
Honestly, I think the deck that were looking for is more resiliant... something like...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=79689
That.
But hey. It could work.. It just feels like your combo it just to fragile and reliant on one card.
EDIT: In fact, Quash is your biggest threat.
On Planar Chaos:
We have at the mo, about 4 or 5 builds
Mono B
with more contol spells, rends, hideous laughter, night of souls betrayl, help stop loss to weenie rush
But, no mana accel, limited discard (tora nezumi bonereader, spear, distress only)(allows toshi to be MDed?) poss turn 2 kuro (spear, vengence)
B/U
More discard and tutoring (sift, eeire, gifts,) and cloudsakter
still no more mana accel NoSb works in here sans skater, kaijin of vanishing touch an option for stall
B/g
More accel (reach, STE), and legend search (ToN) and wear away :smile2: , but little else, loses control and discard)
B/U/W
opens up hikari, otherworldly journey, day of destiny and final judgemet, but will lose serious mana consistency. loses sift and most other discard
This needs playtesting to decide which is the best option
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
Creatures (don't really change that much) (16)
4x Kokusho, the Evening Star
4x Soratami Cloudskater
4x Kuro, Pitlord
2x Iname, Death Aspect
2x The Unspeakable
Spells (minor changes) (15)
4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Sift through Sands
3x Eerie Procession
Artifacts (7)
4x Slumbering Tora
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Land (22)
4x Tendo Ice Bridge
9x Island
9x Swamp
You bring up good questions.
1. I LOVE Kokusho in this deck, you have to play it to really understand. Most of the time, he's my late-game beatstick. I much prefer to hardcast Kokusho than reanimate him. And by some chance that I have 5 mana open, 2 Kokushos in the grave and 2 Vengeances in hand, it ends up being a 10-mana drain.
2. I agree that 2 Tops are enough, ditto on Gifts. -1 Top, -1 Gifts, +2 Hinder. I like Hinder better than Quash, and Shoal is too erratic.
3. Yeah, Quash pwns me hardcore. But then, that's what the SB will be for. And I don't think THAT many decks will pack Quash in high numbers, with Thoughtbind, Hinder, and Hisoka's Defiance in the format.
4. I just really like Ice Bridge. It smooths out early mana bumps. For example, I want UU on turn 3 for Sift Through Sands, but I might want BB soon after for Kokusho, Iname, and spliced Vengeances, and that's asking a lot when I'd only have 10-11 of each. Also, with Cloudskater, I can recharge the Bridges consistently.
The thing i dont like about the deck is the Eerie processions, they take up a lot of time, and sometimes clog your draws. Do we really need them that much, or could we cut them for some more controlling cards? Let me no what you guys think.
Hopefully i will have a swelling of pride sometime soon..........
If you dont get that, look at my username, and if you still dont get it, than your to young to have an account on here without your parents permission, YOU ARE A BAD LITTLE CHILD!!!!
I just think this matchup is going to be exceptionally tough, what kind of options do we have?
I run 2, a nice trick is to iname/tor/skater/sift them into grave and splice a vengeance at end of turn recurring 1, swing on your turn
then vengeance again, draining for 10, and giving you a chance to do it again on later turns.
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
Bignasty, you bring up a good point. Perhaps I could pull an Affinity trick, and board forests with Wear Away. In general, I think this deck should have a good matchup against MWC though.
Now, the SB comes into question though. With green in the mix, it was pretty simple, packing counters, Extraction, and Wear Away. Now what do I have?
4 Cranial Extraction
2 Hinder
4 Hideous Laughter
3 Psychic Spear
2 Quash
I didn't run the legend lands before because of the 3-color commitment and the necessity of STE. Now, running a few is fine. Cloudskater has to stay at 4, it's that important to the deck.
If you cut out the Death Aspects, what are you going to fetch with Gifts?
Ice Bridge is amazing. Truly amazing. It greatly smooths out the early-game mana.
Psy Spears MD isn't the worst idea, but I'll wait to see how the metagame looks first.
I'd try this variant:
2 Nezumi Graverobber
3 Kuro, Pitlord
2 The Unspeakable
2 Iname, Death Aspect
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Goryo's Vengeance
3 Eerie procession
3 Hinder
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Sift Through Sands
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
8 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
I've been considering Zombify in the deck, though not 4 of them. After all, in most cases, I don't want Kuro to hang around, and giving the creatures haste is handy for surprise kills and getting around ***.
The problem with Bosh is...how can you reliably get the red mana to fling him? Not to mention, you can't discard him to Tora since he isn't a Spirit.
Thirst for Knowledge might be better than Sift, though I do like having more things to splice GV to.
But anyway, this is the Block Constructed thread. There IS one in the Competitive Standard deck shop (though it's drastically different and IMO needs a lot of work).
Dump Kuro to the tora,reanimate kuro with vengeance,clear opponets board with kuro's ability,swing for 18.
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