If you get Shoals, use them, goes along famously with Tallowisp. Hokori is a good card no doubt about it, but it also cost 4 to get out and WW needs it's mana for other things, I'd really only run 1-2. Kami of False Hope is Blah. It's another Spirit 1/1 Fog but other then that it's pretty useless since your opponet does not kill you in one turn if you have it out.
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Finally people are starting to realize that Blessed Breath and Otherworldly Journey are the essential cards I have been praising them as.
The Isamaru argument: Isamaru dies. A lot of the time he is the first to die. It happens. It really does. The fact that him not dying is a sign to me that you are playtesting horribly. The other thing that occurs to me is that you have a bad grasp of how to use Legends. Seriously, if WW becomes popular then Isamaru will be more prevalent. In that case someone running 4 of each legend will be more likely to draw 2 legends, and thus keep them on the board.
After some more testing with the Tallowisp build, I have indeed determined that the Hokori, Dust Drinker is too slow in quite a few matchups and I'm moving it back to the sideboard.
Mana has been a little iffy (20) so I'm also adding back the Eiganjo Castle and 2 Shining Shoal for the 3 Hokori.
Current build looks as such with SB open/up in the air:
Not sure if there are enough creatures, but of course, I'm running out of slots and don't know what I'd cut.
Edit: Without the Hokori, it occurs to me that I may be able to reduce the Plains count by 1 (returning to my original 20 lands) and add the 4th Isamaru.
I am sorry if I still don't see it, but the Tallowisp build looks really horrid to me. Especially compared to the faster and more bomb filled Legend Build. I think this thread needs to be resplit into WW Legend and WW Tallowisp. The decks both have much in common but have just as much different.
I think that a lot of people are really cutting it close with their creature counts. I've seen people with only 20 creatures in their decks...20 creatures! Most of these guys you can NEVER have in multiples and a good 60% of the time aren't nearly as efficient as they should be. I've tested this deck and a few things have come to my attention:
1. Blessed Breath and O Journey are really really good, but they aren't necessary in fours. 3 of each should do you fine. Go any lower, however, and you might run into problems.
2. Shoal isn't really all that necessary. You can do fine without it, but you also have the option of replacing O Journey with Shoal, but you leave yourself susceptable to an early Hideous Laughter.
3. More creatures must be run in order to make the deck efficient. 23-25 should be the right number, otherwise, should your opponent wipe the board, you're left with maybe one extra legend.
4. Hokori is great in this deck. If you don't go "(\/)3G4-Ul7R4 SAMURAI LEGEND DOOM!.dec" (I don't have any problem with the deck, I just feel its a bit overrated and overplayed), then you should always have room for him. 3 seems to work just fine. Time him right and that's game.
5. Jitte must be a 4-of. Its just that simple: all kinds of decks play Jitte, so we must play the maximum ammount of Jitte to out-Jitte them. And in the control matchups you usually have to deal with Wear Away anyways. I know this may seem counter-intuitive to Hokori, but it really isn't: all you need is a land in hand to allow yourself to attach Jitte. Or you wait an extra turn, which usually isn't that bad.
6. Patron of the Kitsune is freaking amazing. This creature/combat trick/beatstick/life-gainer/weenie-nullifier can just flat out win you games. Snakes has a hard time catching up with 1 life gain per attacking creature with their hordes of Sosuke's Summon's tokens.
7. Ghostly Prison in the board may seem really odd, but it actually isn't. It shuts down: Snakes, Mirror, R/G Spiritcraft, Spirit Stompy, and StupidRats.dec. And if you ever get it with Hokori you can watch your opponent's face turn bright red with anger. Its a great card that adds to the chance that they'll run out of enchant/artifact removal by the time you Jitte it up.
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I disagree about Lww(legendary white weenie). I think that it is one of the only 2 white weenie builds I would consider running in this block(the other being Tallowisp based spirit/arcane weenie with indomitable wills and cages of hands). It is rediculously fast, has annoying combat tricks, and is one of the few decks in this format that can race G/R spiritcraft beats.
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Someone else finally aggrees with me on Shoal. But I think you are wrong about Otherworldly Journey and Blessed Breath. They are easily a four of. As for Horoki, he has to be more overrated than Tallowisp, since he is rarely effective.
My only problem with Patron of Kitsune is the mana cost and the reliance of Foxes to make it better. Part of the problem is that Samurai of the Pale Curtain is a sideboard card at best in the Legend build AND Eight and a Half Tails is sub par at best.
//NAME: Untitled Deck
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Kentaro, the Smiling Cat
3 Sensei Golden-Tail
4 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Nagao, Bound by Honor
2 Patron of the Kitsune
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
2 Tenza, Godo's Maul
2 Day of Destiny
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Eiganjo Castle
2 Hall of the Bandit Lord
21 Plains
SB: 1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
SB: 1 Nagao, Bound by Honor
SB: 1 Yosei, the Morning Star
SB: 1 Patron of the Kitsune
SB: 1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
SB: 4 Shining Shoal
SB: 2 Shell of the Last Kappa
SB: 4 Terashi's Grasp
Probably not optimal. Scratch that, obviously not optimal.
I've had a little trouble building it. Hall of the Bandit Lord is quite powerful; free haste is a wonderful thing.
It works fairly well, and the Maul is nice. Honor Worn Shaku is pretty fool with equipment, too.
Other notes: I want to play Untaidake. Mana Acceleration is always powerful, even if it's restricted in it's usability.
won another Fnm with the deck I posted previously (with -1 patron +1 jitte) still want to take out the patrons for some 3cc legend (currently masako - underrated)
some points---
As with any deck in this block, 4 jitte is a must
shoals are very useful, almost guaranteed card advantage
blessed breath is AMAZING!
Please explain how shoal is card advantage. Even if you use it to kill an opponent's creature rather than your own you end up even assuming you payed for it with mana. The same goes if you mess with your opponent's burn spell. I can see how playing when your opponent double blocks so you can kill both the blockers and another creature, but even then you gain plus one which isn't a big deal.
I got a question? Is the general consensus of best WW deck Tallowisp? Cause it isn't. Wisp is a good deck but WW Legends is
1.) Much Faster. Fairly consistent turn 5 kills
2.) Quality creatures. Youi never a lose creature combat. I mean fourth turn Patron of teh Kitsune is awesome with fith turn Day of Destiny. Even without Day your creatures are more powerfull
3.)Better Shoal. You have nagao, Day of Destiny, and Patron. Thast a lot of redirected damage. Shoals becoem huge in this deck.
I have tested both decks and Legends is better. half my team is running it.
That's not the general consensus. Have you not noticed that most of the talk for the last page has been about WWL? Or are you just lazy?
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ever looked on http://www.wizards.com it gives u lots of info on magic amd cards so if u havnt looked hav a look and it will tell u allmost anything about magic the gathering
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Please explain how shoal is card advantage. Even if you use it to kill an opponent's creature rather than your own you end up even assuming you payed for it with mana. The same goes if you mess with your opponent's burn spell. I can see how playing when your opponent double blocks so you can kill both the blockers and another creature, but even then you gain plus one which isn't a big deal.
examples, eh:
someone casts glacial ray on your isamaru, you shoal the damage to his akki avalanchers - thats 2 for 1
someone blocks your isamaru with an avalanchers and sacs a land, shoal the combat damage to his zo-zu. 3 for 1 ( card for an avalanchers, land and zozu instead of avalanchers and land for isamaru)
Both of these happened in a single match
plus the way it can "use up" extra copies of legends is just gravy. The whole point of WWL is to get the quick beatstick legends down and protect them with stuff like blessed breath/shoals/journeys until you get a day or jitte out and swing in for the last few points
examples, eh:
someone casts glacial ray on your isamaru, you shoal the damage to his akki avalanchers - thats 2 for 1
No, that's 2 for 2, and that's not a very common situation. Shoal doesn't help much against Jittes and straight creature destruction. I'd much rather have something like Blessed Breath or Otherworldly Journey, which can save a creature from ANY destruction.
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ever looked on http://www.wizards.com it gives u lots of info on magic amd cards so if u havnt looked hav a look and it will tell u allmost anything about magic the gathering
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate the crimes; and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
you dont always have to pay the alternate cost, and very often its the 1 or 2 points of damage that make the difference. I play the breath and the journey too, but I'm saying that unlike most forms of removal it can generate card advantage and most importantly board advantage.Its not the best spell in the world but it has its place.
Tallowisp WW makes top 8 at the PTQ. It would've gotten past the quarter finals had the player not been such a doofus. "Wear Away splice Horobi's Whisper on your Hokori" the player was like "In response: Blessed Breath, Black"...man, that pressure must've really gotten to him for him to make such an odd play. Here's the decklist:
Kannushi is ridiculous in the mirror, but against everything else it seems kind of "eh". Anyways, what do you think? No Journey, only 2 Shoal, but it seemed to be the only deck with the gumption to make it to top 8.
In the video interview, Cimera was asked what he'd have changed about his deck - he mentioned replacing the Ghostly Prisons in the sideboard with Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo. I can see matchups where the ability to manipulate combat damage would be useful.
Tallowisp WW makes top 8 at the PTQ. It would've gotten past the quarter finals had the player not been such a doofus. "Wear Away splice Horobi's Whisper on your Hokori" the player was like "In response: Blessed Breath, Black"...man, that pressure must've really gotten to him for him to make such an odd play. Here's the decklist:
Kannushi is ridiculous in the mirror, but against everything else it seems kind of "eh". Anyways, what do you think? No Journey, only 2 Shoal, but it seemed to be the only deck with the gumption to make it to top 8.
You also have to look at his matchups, I play with this guy (Ryan Cimera) all the time seeing how he lives in my town, and quite frankly, he's still lacking as a player. I mean even with that play mistake that he made, he still had another blessed breath in his hand along with mana floating from Heartbeat of Spring being in play.
Rounds 1-12
GRB Snakes
GRU Snakes
Gifts
Gifts
GIfts
Bye
Mono Black Splashing White for Wrath and Verdict (Kai Budde got mana screwed both games)
Mirror
Big dumb legends (geared for beating snakes)
Sway
Big dumb legends
Big dumb legends
So based on that, he managed to come up against 8 favorable matchups, and he even got a bye. I would say that the deck is solid, but there's nothing special about it.
Didn't Kenji have a Laughter in hand anyways? And he could have played the Whisper, too. I think I'll watch it again to see what really happened, the first time I was up getting food. Bad timing.
Anyways, MD Hokori seems necesary. The PTQ format will probably be full by people netting Sleifer's deck and/or Heartbeat decks. Hokori seems pretty good in the MD as an answer. Any thoughts?
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I've tested primarily against MBC and have had very favorable results. (which to be honest, surprised me)
I've concluded that any white creature based deck NOT running Blessed Breath and Otherworldly Journey is probably subpar.
Just my thoughts anyway.
Try changing it back. Your build is much worse. If you can't afford the cards you're missing, don't play this deck.
If you get Shoals, use them, goes along famously with Tallowisp. Hokori is a good card no doubt about it, but it also cost 4 to get out and WW needs it's mana for other things, I'd really only run 1-2. Kami of False Hope is Blah. It's another Spirit 1/1 Fog but other then that it's pretty useless since your opponet does not kill you in one turn if you have it out.
The Isamaru argument: Isamaru dies. A lot of the time he is the first to die. It happens. It really does. The fact that him not dying is a sign to me that you are playtesting horribly. The other thing that occurs to me is that you have a bad grasp of how to use Legends. Seriously, if WW becomes popular then Isamaru will be more prevalent. In that case someone running 4 of each legend will be more likely to draw 2 legends, and thus keep them on the board.
gtg, but I will finish this later.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
Mana has been a little iffy (20) so I'm also adding back the Eiganjo Castle and 2 Shining Shoal for the 3 Hokori.
Current build looks as such with SB open/up in the air:
20 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
Creatures (22)
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Tallowisp
4 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Lantern Kami
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Blessed Breath
3 Otherworldly Journey
2 Shining Shoal
1 Indomitable Will
3 Cage of Hands
Not sure if there are enough creatures, but of course, I'm running out of slots and don't know what I'd cut.
Edit: Without the Hokori, it occurs to me that I may be able to reduce the Plains count by 1 (returning to my original 20 lands) and add the 4th Isamaru.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
1. Blessed Breath and O Journey are really really good, but they aren't necessary in fours. 3 of each should do you fine. Go any lower, however, and you might run into problems.
2. Shoal isn't really all that necessary. You can do fine without it, but you also have the option of replacing O Journey with Shoal, but you leave yourself susceptable to an early Hideous Laughter.
3. More creatures must be run in order to make the deck efficient. 23-25 should be the right number, otherwise, should your opponent wipe the board, you're left with maybe one extra legend.
4. Hokori is great in this deck. If you don't go "(\/)3G4-Ul7R4 SAMURAI LEGEND DOOM!.dec" (I don't have any problem with the deck, I just feel its a bit overrated and overplayed), then you should always have room for him. 3 seems to work just fine. Time him right and that's game.
5. Jitte must be a 4-of. Its just that simple: all kinds of decks play Jitte, so we must play the maximum ammount of Jitte to out-Jitte them. And in the control matchups you usually have to deal with Wear Away anyways. I know this may seem counter-intuitive to Hokori, but it really isn't: all you need is a land in hand to allow yourself to attach Jitte. Or you wait an extra turn, which usually isn't that bad.
6. Patron of the Kitsune is freaking amazing. This creature/combat trick/beatstick/life-gainer/weenie-nullifier can just flat out win you games. Snakes has a hard time catching up with 1 life gain per attacking creature with their hordes of Sosuke's Summon's tokens.
7. Ghostly Prison in the board may seem really odd, but it actually isn't. It shuts down: Snakes, Mirror, R/G Spiritcraft, Spirit Stompy, and StupidRats.dec. And if you ever get it with Hokori you can watch your opponent's face turn bright red with anger. Its a great card that adds to the chance that they'll run out of enchant/artifact removal by the time you Jitte it up.
"A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer."
"I love you guys, thanks for comin' to my special."
- Mitch Hedburg (1968-2005)
We love you too Mitch, we love you too.
"Girls are like Voltron: the more you stick together, the better it gets." SE
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
My only problem with Patron of Kitsune is the mana cost and the reliance of Foxes to make it better. Part of the problem is that Samurai of the Pale Curtain is a sideboard card at best in the Legend build AND Eight and a Half Tails is sub par at best.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
"That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die."
- H.P. Lovecraft
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Kentaro, the Smiling Cat
3 Sensei Golden-Tail
4 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Nagao, Bound by Honor
2 Patron of the Kitsune
2 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
2 Tenza, Godo's Maul
2 Day of Destiny
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Eiganjo Castle
2 Hall of the Bandit Lord
21 Plains
SB: 1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
SB: 1 Nagao, Bound by Honor
SB: 1 Yosei, the Morning Star
SB: 1 Patron of the Kitsune
SB: 1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
SB: 4 Shining Shoal
SB: 2 Shell of the Last Kappa
SB: 4 Terashi's Grasp
Probably not optimal. Scratch that, obviously not optimal.
I've had a little trouble building it. Hall of the Bandit Lord is quite powerful; free haste is a wonderful thing.
It works fairly well, and the Maul is nice. Honor Worn Shaku is pretty fool with equipment, too.
Other notes: I want to play Untaidake. Mana Acceleration is always powerful, even if it's restricted in it's usability.
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
some points---
As with any deck in this block, 4 jitte is a must
shoals are very useful, almost guaranteed card advantage
blessed breath is AMAZING!
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
The Real Best Legacy Poster of 2005 poll
1.) Much Faster. Fairly consistent turn 5 kills
2.) Quality creatures. Youi never a lose creature combat. I mean fourth turn Patron of teh Kitsune is awesome with fith turn Day of Destiny. Even without Day your creatures are more powerfull
3.)Better Shoal. You have nagao, Day of Destiny, and Patron. Thast a lot of redirected damage. Shoals becoem huge in this deck.
I have tested both decks and Legends is better. half my team is running it.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate the crimes; and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
examples, eh:
someone casts glacial ray on your isamaru, you shoal the damage to his akki avalanchers - thats 2 for 1
someone blocks your isamaru with an avalanchers and sacs a land, shoal the combat damage to his zo-zu. 3 for 1 ( card for an avalanchers, land and zozu instead of avalanchers and land for isamaru)
Both of these happened in a single match
plus the way it can "use up" extra copies of legends is just gravy. The whole point of WWL is to get the quick beatstick legends down and protect them with stuff like blessed breath/shoals/journeys until you get a day or jitte out and swing in for the last few points
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
No, that's 2 for 2, and that's not a very common situation. Shoal doesn't help much against Jittes and straight creature destruction. I'd much rather have something like Blessed Breath or Otherworldly Journey, which can save a creature from ANY destruction.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate the crimes; and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
Shadowmoor's Infinite combos
21 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Kami of Ancient Law
4 Tallowisp
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
4 Lantern Kami
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Shining Shoal
4 Blessed Breath
2 Cage of Hands
3 Indomitable Will
4 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
3 Terashi's Grasp
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
Kannushi is ridiculous in the mirror, but against everything else it seems kind of "eh". Anyways, what do you think? No Journey, only 2 Shoal, but it seemed to be the only deck with the gumption to make it to top 8.
"A severed foot is the ultimate stocking stuffer."
"I love you guys, thanks for comin' to my special."
- Mitch Hedburg (1968-2005)
We love you too Mitch, we love you too.
"Girls are like Voltron: the more you stick together, the better it gets." SE
I can see both Opal-Eye and Prision having merits.
Reciprocate, stops the Souless Revial nonsense, and can really hurt 3-4 creature control decks. Is Cage of Hands ample though?
Otherworldly Journey to fight Final Judgement and Hideous Laughter? Is splash red for Ishi-Ishi really possible, or nesecessary?
You also have to look at his matchups, I play with this guy (Ryan Cimera) all the time seeing how he lives in my town, and quite frankly, he's still lacking as a player. I mean even with that play mistake that he made, he still had another blessed breath in his hand along with mana floating from Heartbeat of Spring being in play.
Rounds 1-12
GRB Snakes
GRU Snakes
Gifts
Gifts
GIfts
Bye
Mono Black Splashing White for Wrath and Verdict (Kai Budde got mana screwed both games)
Mirror
Big dumb legends (geared for beating snakes)
Sway
Big dumb legends
Big dumb legends
So based on that, he managed to come up against 8 favorable matchups, and he even got a bye. I would say that the deck is solid, but there's nothing special about it.
Anyways, MD Hokori seems necesary. The PTQ format will probably be full by people netting Sleifer's deck and/or Heartbeat decks. Hokori seems pretty good in the MD as an answer. Any thoughts?