Hey cube enthusiasts. I don't know about you, but one of my favorite things about cube is the 'design' aspect. I love tinkering with different strategies and archtypes, figuring out obscure synergies, and tweaking all sorts of other aspects of my cube. I loved the design aspect of EDH as well, back when I played that format. The one thing that bugs me about EDH and Cube is that there are a whole mess of really fun cards that I absolutely love that are complete jank. Cards like Angelheart Vial and Tower of Calamities. For a while I've been having the itch to design something new, and I thought about making a "dollar rare" cube focusing on wierd strategies that aren't represented in the average cube. But I just couldn't get into it. I've been prowling around looking for different "cube like" formats, and I think I have found the WINNER. Anyone ever heard of Danger Room?
A quick summary for those that don't feel like reading the whole thing:
The "Danger Room" is a single large deck of 300-500-however many cards you throw together. All players draw their hands from the center deck.
Lands are fixed. Each player starts the game with set of 10 lands consisting of 5 basics and one of each of the oldschool taplands (ala Elfhame Palace). Players can play 1 land per turn from the exile zone.
There are no cards in the "Danger Room" that create additional mana, destroy lands, or otherwise manipulate the amount of mana a player can produce, therefore all players are on an equal playing field from a mana perspective.
Each player stars the game with six cards and has a max hand size of nine cards.
The "Danger Room" does not have have balance mono/multi color sections. It's just a pile of super fun cards that interact well and create interesting and interactive games.
In short this is basically a self contained board game of magic. Games will be random, long, interactive, and (if I build it right) extremely fun. Mr Linn attached the list he built at the end of his article. It looks pretty fun. I intend to use his list as a framework, but I want to select the majority of the cards I use individually.
My goal is to create a format that is extremely interactive, allows for lots of skillful decisions, and has a robust element of randomness. I want to make a format where cards like Auger Spree are good, fatties like Archon of the Triumvirate are the best possible late game topdeck, and Nivix Guildmage is really scary. I want to make a format where combat math is a real thing every turn, and people have to really study board states in order to find the advantageous play.
For now I'm going to exclude Planeswalkers and mythic rares, and expensive cards in general. Because I have complete control over the power level, I won't need to play cards that cost more than .27 cents. In every set there are a few jank cards that are super flavorful, don't see much constructed play, would not cut it in cube, but are popwerful and interesting in their own way. The Mercurial Chemisters of the world. These are the cards I want to focus on and build around.
I'm posting this thread in the cube forum for a couple reasons. One, this is the only forum on MTGs where I hang out. Two, I have a lot of respect for the experience and insight you guys bring to the game of magic, and feel that your cube design experience could be really helpful in creating a good alternate format like Danger Room. Three, I want help. If anyone reads this and think this could be a fun and rewarding project, chime in with your thoughts. I'll post updates as I formulate and playtest my list. If y'all get on board, do the same! Anyone interested???
A note to the Mods: I hope I posted this in the correct thread...
This seems a lot like what we call 'Stack'. It's also known as Type 4 or Limited Infinity. The major difference I see is that you use lands for mana, which obviously has a balancing effect on games. Being able to play any card, without regard for mana cost, makes the game much simpler, but removes a lot of interesting features. We've occasionally played this 'Danger Room' format before (with only basic lands) with my Stack, but it's not made with mana costs in mind, so it's a little wonky.
That said, I'm quite interested in changing my Stack to use mana, or at least providing that as an option, as we haven't used it in a while. Looking forward to seeing which cards you decide to include!
A small correction: according to Douglas Linn (in the very article you linked), it was Brian Demars who designed "The Danger Room." About 2-3 months earlier there was an article on SCG.
Anyway, this is a nice break from other Magic formats especially since the setup is so easy. The difference between Danger Room and Stack is that in Stack you can have more than 10 mana (in a long game), while in Danger Room you can only have up to 10 mana, never more. Furthermore, since the 5 Invasion taplands are used, you have to plan out the sequence in which you play them. You can never have more than 3 of any color of mana available (basic land and 2 of the taplands) so that is a further restriction.
Personally, I prefer Type 4 as my "stack" format, but this is a nice way to use a lot of those cards that don't quite make it in a Cube or Type 4 stack.
Petal Collector, thanks for pointing that out, I edited the OP.
So I've done a good bit of looking around and trying to set a vision for how I want this thing to play. Brian Demars/Doug Lin designed their decks so that creatures like Shivan Dragon and Mahamoti Djin represented the top end of the creature curve. I want to stick to that in terms of power/toughness, but want to incorporate a bit more variety in terms of the abilities of my "bombs". I don't want to be able to drop a creature that can completely take over a game all by itself, but I don't mind having a few powerful dudes that can take you most of the way there. The following are some of the cards I'm hoping to include as "bomb creatures".
Another element I want to include in the stack is cascade. I plan on including pretty much every playable cascade card (except the legendary guy and the 5C enchantment). I think the fact that every player shares the deck will increase the excitement/hilarity of the cascade mechanic.
I also want morph to be a thing. I've looked through all the morph cards and these are the ones I feel merit inclusion based on the power level I'm shooting for:
I plan on making the bread and butter creatures consist of value bears and good defensive creatures. I'll probably include some landwalkers as I think they could add a level of strategy to early turn land drops, as well as some unblockable guys to break through stalled boards. I'll probably include several Ravnica/Return to Ravnica guildmages as well as they can serve as efficient beaters early, and have relevance later in the game. Here are some two drops I'm thinking of including:
I still need to flesh out these lists and find good sweepers, spot removal spells, equipment, random fun artifacts, counterspells, draw spells, combat tricks, ect...
Anyone have card suggestions that fit into any of the categories discussed above?
I like Sunburst cards, such as Etched Oracle, in this format.
+1
Also, I would consider using the Worldwake manlands like Celestial Colonnade instead of the boring taplands. Just gives everyone more "spells" to work with at any given moment.
Sunburst! Good idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'm going to include Etched Oracle, but I hadn't looked further than that. Also, I'm including lots of domain cards.
Evasive Maneuvers for example, or Tribal Flames. I want to add as much strategy to the early land drops as possible, and since everyone has access to all 5, having a domain card in your opening hand will likely influence your first few land drops.
By late game, even crappy cards like Manaforce Mace are going to be all stars!
I'm in the final stages of putting my list together before I do a bulk purchase. I'm hoping to have it sleeved in the next couple weeks. Once I get a final list together I'll post it.
Mods - Feel free to move the thread, I posted here cause this is where I spend the most time and I thought the excellent community of cube enthusiasts might enjoy giving input.
It's kind of sort of like designing a cube too.... ish.
I've only been playing magic since Shards of Alara so you may notice that there aren't a ton of super old cards in there, as was the case with the creators of the format. But hey, it's the cards I like. I think I have too many 2 drops, and I may swap out some of the higher CMC creatures for cheaper$$$ creatures. Also, I'm probably going to have to fiddle a bit with the number of sweepers/removal spells/artifact & enchantment hate, ect... Right now its about 10-13% kill and just over 5% A&E hate.
Anyway, check it out!
PS - Does anyone know of a better deckstats website?
(This is Doug Linn and I'm happy to see attention on the format!)
I obviously like the format a lot. One of the underrated aspects of it is that there's no drafting involved unless you want to draft it. You can just pick up stacks of cards from the box and play. That means more Magic, less deckbuilding. It probably also influences me that I'm pretty awful at Cube.
If your goal is interesting interactions between cards and thought-provoking play, then Danger Room catalyzes that more than anything else I've played (except maybe MoJhoSto on MTGO). If you want to make limited decks, draft, force colors, build on efficient mana curves - all the stuff aside from "cast powerful spells and summon mighty monsters" - then maybe Cube is just better for you.
I've started emphasizing the 3cc, 3-power guys in my DR. I think that they're kind of the baseline for what you want to do. They're efficient enough and you don't have to overcome "is this monster better on turn 2 than a tapped land?" So things like Call of the Herd, Lyev Skyknight, Ebony Treefolk and more. noshadowkick, you won't regret maxing out the sweepers. I have just about every one in my box. You need a certain amount to wipe away ground stalls at times.
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(This is Doug Linn and I'm happy to see attention on the format!)
I obviously like the format a lot. One of the underrated aspects of it is that there's no drafting involved unless you want to draft it. You can just pick up stacks of cards from the box and play. That means more Magic, less deckbuilding. It probably also influences me that I'm pretty awful at Cube.
If your goal is interesting interactions between cards and thought-provoking play, then Danger Room catalyzes that more than anything else I've played (except maybe MoJhoSto on MTGO). If you want to make limited decks, draft, force colors, build on efficient mana curves - all the stuff aside from "cast powerful spells and summon mighty monsters" - then maybe Cube is just better for you.
I've started emphasizing the 3cc, 3-power guys in my DR. I think that they're kind of the baseline for what you want to do. They're efficient enough and you don't have to overcome "is this monster better on turn 2 than a tapped land?" So things like Call of the Herd, Lyev Skyknight, Ebony Treefolk and more. noshadowkick, you won't regret maxing out the sweepers. I have just about every one in my box. You need a certain amount to wipe away ground stalls at times.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate the input! Do you have a current list typed up? Where does your curve peak? My current list has about 60 1 drops, 140 2 drops and 100ish 3 drops. I think I need to shave down the two drops anyway.
Great! Remember my advice from the article, too - don't get foils just yet, since things come and go.
I also tell myself I need to put Jilt into my deck and it's this running joke internally of how I never remember to. I'd get a foil of Jilt. That card is bonkers.
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No foils besides the ones I already have - I am not that into them anyway. Maybe eventually once I really figure out how this thing plays. I am definitely planning on including Jilt
As far as 3 power 3 drops are concerned, have you considered Aven Mimeomancer? I have always loved the card but until now have never had a format to play it in. Seems like it will be an interesting and challenging card.
One clarifying question: Does each player have their own graveyard or is the graveyard central, like the deck? I'm guessing each player has their own simply because of the way most magic cards are worded, and I think I'll play that way regardless. Cards like Geralf's Mindcrusher become great as filling up your yard would be a great way to gain free card advantage w/ flashback spells and creatures to reanimate, without fear of decking yourself.
Another note on graveyards: I am currently not including any dredge cards as I feel like they would be completely busted in a format with an inexhaustible deck, have you found the same to be true?
So I got the DANGER ROOM stack sleeved up and have managed to play some games games. This format is great! In a lot of ways the stack has played like I hopedIn the games 10-15 games I've played only one of them has been a non-interactive dud. Every other game has been lengthy, engaging, swingy, and interactive, and CLOSE. There has literally been a point in every game where it could have gone either way. I've also been really pleased by how many games are won and lost in the red zone. Combat math is a real thing here and it's awesome. I lost one game because my opponent used Spike Feeder's counter moving ability to pump a creature and take out my best blocker. I had totally forgotten Spike Feeder was anything but a repeatable fog on a stick. Games typically last 10-15 turns, but I've had a couple that went well into the twenties and a couple that ended on turn 7-8. I like the length a lot. Not too long where it's torture, but the game really has a chance to develop which is great.
In other way's the stack has played a bit differently than I expected. I underestimated the effect that not drawing lands has on a game. If you think the average deck in just about every other format is 40% mana, then in DANGER ROOM you are drawing 40% more business spells with no additional effort. Because of this it's common to have 5-8 cards in hand all the way through the game. I've only gone hellbent once so far. Because every card I've drawn is a business spell I've found that some of the artifacts I initially included (Scepter of Insight, Cellar Door, Druidic Satchel) are just not good enough, because I usually have something in my hand I'd rather spend the mana on.
Here are some cards I've cut already for being too powerful:
Tower of Calamities: I thought 8 mana was fair for 12 damage once per turn, but in a format where everyone is guaranteed to get 8 mana on turn 8 the tower is just too good. It's slow, but in any board state that is even remotely close, if the the Tower isn't destroyed promptly, you are going to win.
Magus of the Abyss: Stax effects don't really work in this format as everyone is playing the same deck. If you are ahead on creatures when you drop this, you are going to win. If you are behind it's just not going to do anything for you. Pretty much an unfun card.
Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis: Too many good things in one card. Big beefy flier, and repeatable edicts. There are only a few creatures in the stack that can block a 6/6 flier profitably, and the attack trigger was just too overwhelming. I'm replacing Nefy with Extractor Demon.
Rolling Thunder: This card has always been stupid. It's stupid in this format also. Going to slide in a random NORMAL kill spell in it's place.
Quicksilver Dragon: I was shocked when this card completely dominated in every game it hit the table. 5/5 fliers are rare in the stack and are absolutely the top of the curve for evasive beats. A 5/5 flier that can't be targeted by spot removal was just too good.
On the watch list: Electropotence: This card is really good late in the game but requires a good bit of setup and loss of tempo to get rolling. It's dominated a couple games for sure but is super weak until late game and can't have a huge board impact until the turn after it's cast. Still not sure if it's too good.
Mercurial Chemister: Same as Electropotence, his discard ability can really wreck the field. I've only seen him come up once and he died after taking out a 3 drop, so I need some more data before I make up my mind. I love the card, but I think ultimately he may be too good.
Cackling Counterpart: An instant speed version of your best creature is pretty insane. It's probably not too good but I've got my eye on it.
Cards cut for being terrible (in addition to those mentioned above):
Reconnaissance: It was great for me in peasant cube, but the addition of good sweepers in this format greatly decreases the occurrence of ground stalls, which is where this card excels. Honden of Seeing Winds: I'd rather draw 4 with Tidings now.
Quick note before I get into it: Mods, is it ok to post in response to myself on this thread, or should I just keep editing the most recent post I have? Thanks.
Ok, back to DANGER ROOM. There are a couple cards I included in my initial list that had a big positive impact:
1. Memory Lapse - this cheap little tempo counter has potential to be the best counterspell variant in a format where everyone draws from the same deck. Counter your bomb/removal spell and draw it for myself next turn? Yes please! There are a lot of cards that do the "top of the library" thing, and I don't want to go overboard here, but I think a couple more of these effects would be fun. I'm thinking Hinder and Nevermaker for the time being. Hinder is pretty self explanatory, but Nevermaker's possible applications are intense. I can evoke to take out ANYTHING on the field, and draw it next turn. It's basically a delayed Confiscate that gives me actual "ownership" of the card. Wierd, but I like it. Also, it's a pretty ballsy blocker. I certainly wouldn't want to swing into a Nevermaker with my Serra Angel or Bull Ceradon.
2. Geralf's Mindcrusher & Breaking // Entering - I had speculated that "self" mill would be good in this format, and I was right. There is no downside, and a deep yard turns on threshold and turbocharges all of your recursion spells. Plus, it's just fun to flip cards into your graveyard from the center deck. I'm a big fan of the graveyard and have built many an EDH, cube, peasant cube, and casual deck that focuses on GY shenanigans. I also want to push GY effects in my DR. I'm going to be swapping out some of the weaker card draw artifacts/enchantments I mentioned in the previous post for good mill cards. I'm thinking Grindclock, Sands of Delirium, Codex Shredder, Splinterfright and potentially Wood Sage (may be too weak) . I wish there was a piece of equipment that self milled... There are more cards I'm considering but I want to play some games with the new additions before pushing this aspect more.
I also need to add more sweepers. I currently have about 25 in a 500 card stack, and it's just not enough - the sweepers I'm considering adding are:
The Archon is a fine card, but it just doesn't gel with me. It feels stupid and unflavorful somehow and isn't really what I'm looking for at the 7 slot. Summoner on the other hand is VALUE CITY for 7 mana and right at the power level I'm looking for. Just imagine flipping her into your yard with an Animate Dead in your hand Everybody loves tokens!
That's all for now kids. Check out my list and leave a comment if you have any thoughts/suggestions!
Danger Room is also a limited format, designed the same way a Cube is, as a selection of cards that create the perfect limited format for your needs. A Cube does not have to be powerful (some do play unpowered, or without rares), and can be built towards 5 color goodstuff. On top of that, a Cube can be played using Danger Room land rule, and a Danger Room can be drafted and played normally. Both formats are just extremely close.
Then they are just designing a powerful cube under certain restrictions.
Restrictions... like a custom power level? It doesn't need to include the most powerful cards within whatever restrictions. Any custom card pool made for limited is a cube. This 'danger room' is a 'stack', which to me is just a specific type of cube.
As I've seen stacks posted in the 'cube lists' sub-forum, I see no reason why this one can't be there too. Just title it [500] noshadowkick's Danger-Room Stack or something.
@ noshadowkick
I fed your list into deckstats.net (to generate some opening hands) and got the following:
I didn't fix most of the spelling errors, as the site did that for me... mostly. Wear//Tear was turned into Wear, which isn't a card. Dunno about that.
I feel like anyone who gets one of the better cards here will have way too much advantage, as there are very few of them. I've removed all of the direct large-card-advantage cards from my stack to avoid this issue... were any of your games strongly influenced by these?
How important have the sweepers been? They can obviously generate card advantage, so perhaps it's not as big a deal as I've thought. Are there any creatures that excel too much at combat? Perhaps Truefire Paladin? Or does the number and type of lands limit how powerful these types of mana sinks can be? Have any cards surprised you by how strong they were?
Thanks for the post, and thanks for the misspelled cards. I fixed my list and will update it here once I finalize the changes I make tonight. I'd love to move this thread to the cube list forum... I'll plead with the mods.
As for the powerful draw spells, I think I may have too many, but not because they are too powerful for the format. In fact most games where I have a draw spell it feels like a dead card because my hand is so stocked with other options. I'm definitely cutting Blue Sun's Zenith as it's just too clunky to leave UUU open to cast it, and will likely cut Opportunity for being and Ido want to include some more 2 and 3 cost draw spells to even the curve out a bit. I wanted to include powerful draw spells to provide a comeback feature. Since everyone is drawing off the top it can be a real drag to be in topdeck mode (with btw has only happened once in the 20 or so games I've played). There HAVE been a few times when a player had a Mind Spring or something in their opener and waited until turn 9 to cast it after intentionally dumping their hand, but it by no means broke the game wide open as the other player was sitting pretty good themselves. I've yet to see a game where both players are running low on cards then one topdecks a Skeletal Scrying and runs away with the game. But it could definitely happen and would be a super lame way to finish a match. I'll keep an eye on it. Were the draw spells an issue in your stack when you play it with lands?
Sweepers have been really important, in fact I'm adding more. Right now I have 25 in a 500 card stack, so about one sweeper in every 20 cards, but there have been plenty of games where nobody draws a sweeper and the board gets clogged up. I don't want the games to become too sweeper focused and have the board blown up every third turn, but I feel like I need 4-5 more good sweepers to have a density that feels right. If the board is wiped an average of twice a game I'd be ok with it. Plus, the reason I built this stack was to have long and interactive games, and sweepers help make that happen. They give the game a sense of evolution and progress.
Creatures: Yea there have been a lot of surprises. As previously mentioned I've cut Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis, and Quicksilver Dragon for being either impossible to deal with or oppressive. I'm cutting Mercurial Chemister as well. The dude is just too good. Manor Gargoyle is also getting the Axe. He's just too darn tough to get rid of. I'd be ok with a 3/3 creature without flying with his abilities, but a 4/4 flier that can dodge tons of removal and survive most sweepers is just too strong. As far as combat is concerned there haven't been all that many. As far as combat is concerned, I'm cutting Skyhunter Skirmisher because there are too many way's to buff his stat's and win out of nowhere. I like doublestrike a lot, but I'm going to restrict it to ground pounders and fat sorceries for DR purposes. The combo of double strike and evasion was too good. Truefire Paladin has been really good for us but I don't think he's over the top. Because of mana restriction he can only activate 3 times a turn, which either makes him a 6/2 with first trike or an 8/2, which are both really good stats to be going into the red zone with, but it takes 6 mana to make it happen which can be a huge loss of tempo. There are also plenty of ways to get rid of a 2 toughness creature in the DR. That said he is definitely in the top 10 two drops and if he dominates too many games or becomes oppressive I'll cut him in a heartbeat.
Some random cards that surprised me for being super strong in this format:
All cascade cards, even the crappy ones like Demonic Dread and Stormcaller's Boon. Plus cascade is probably the most fun mechanic ever created. I'm picking up a BBE asap.
Cauldron Haze - has been a blast and very much worth the slot.
I'm sure there are more but that's all I've got for now. I'll post the fixed list including changes soon!
I've enjoyed Inheritance in the stack. It triggers off of anyone's critters dying, by the way.
Regarding powerful enchantments - I tend to limit these because there's not as much enchantment kill in my stack as artifact kill.
DGM has been really good for the format. I'm adding a bunch of the Fuse cards, along with things like Master of Aquittals.
Also, repeatable sacrifice effects are super strong. Goblin Bombardment and Mortarpod are lordly. I'll probably put Goblin Sharpshooter in the deck, too. Gelectrode is a fine monster, as is Staticaster.
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I've enjoyed Inheritance in the stack. It triggers off of anyone's critters dying, by the way.
Regarding powerful enchantments - I tend to limit these because there's not as much enchantment kill in my stack as artifact kill.
DGM has been really good for the format. I'm adding a bunch of the Fuse cards, along with things like Master of Aquittals.
Also, repeatable sacrifice effects are super strong. Goblin Bombardment and Mortarpod are lordly. I'll probably put Goblin Sharpshooter in the deck, too. Gelectrode is a fine monster, as is Staticaster.
Nice find with Inheritance, I'm going to pick one up ASAP. Have you found Fires of Yavimaya to be too strong? I completely ran away with a game last night when I untapped with Fires on the field. I want to have some sort of permanent that grants haste but I'm wondering if Fires is too strong. Crimson Mage perhaps?
I probably have more cards from DGM in the stack than any other expansion:
I've been considering Goblin Sharpshooter, but have been concerned about powerlevel. Gelectrode is a blast and I'm already planning on picking up an Izzet Staticaster from my LGS this evening
I've found cheap discard outlets for spell effects can be really helpful as I it's easy to have dead cards in your hand once the board is developed. I really like Waterfront Bouncer, Overtaker, and Undertaker, and I'm considering Dawnstrider and/or Cho-Arrim Alchemist. Mercadian Masques all the way! Compulsion is another card I really dig. Giving every card in your hand cycling is pretty good.
Alrighty kids, time for some CHANGES (OUT ---> IN):
Creatures:
I made the following changes based on preference. Power level wasn't an issue with any of the cards being cut, I just wasn't a huge fan of them in the stack. Especially Morkrut Banshee... that art creeps me out.
1. Get rid of OP cards: This includes creatures like Quicksilver Dragon and enchantments like Fires of Yavimaya and Electropotence. I had a bunch of cards in the stack that pretty much won you the game if you untapped with them and your opponent didn't have the perfect answer immediately or were too oppressive or hard to remove. As much as I loved some of them (Mercurial Chemister :(), they had to go for the health of the format.
3. Tighten up the DR: These changes were general and mostly based on what I subjectively felt would strengthen the format. If you look over the changes you'll notice I added a good bit of lifegain. In the DR lifegain actually matters. I also cut some weak enchantments and lowered the curve on my draw spells a bit. Aslo, I removed the non-surgical discard spells, as they weren't fun. Seeing someone's hand and taking their bomb is fun. Making someone pitch 5 and running away with the game because you still have 5 cards in hand is not. I also added a few more sweepers and soft sweepers because I felt they were needed.
I have yet to play with the changes, but feel really good about them. I'm telling you guys, this format is a blast and needs smart magic players like you to refine and develop it! UNCLE NOSHADOWKICK WANT'S YOU TO BUILD A DANGER ROOM!
You can two-handed goldfish this stack a lot, too. That's something I like to do to practice if there's nobody around. You end up being much more aware of what cards are too powerful. That's why I ended up cutting Grafted Wargear, for example.
I know you cut Tower of Calamities but I'll suggest Aladdin's Ring. It's a reasonable mana cost for the effect. There are often better things you can be doing with 8 mana than shotgunning something, but it's good to have around.
Good call on Extractor Demon!
Walls are really good in this format, by the way. Wall of Heat is a monster and a friend of mine just cut Wall of Swords from his list because it's just too serious.
Speaking of lifegain, I like Braidwood Cup and Fountain of Youth. They tend to add up pretty quickly. Well of Life (and Well of Discovery) are both pretty solid, too.
You might want to put Masked Admirers back in with all your graveyard effects!
Medicine Bag is really good; glad to see other people appreciating it, too. It totally screws up combat math. I like Angelic Renewal and Saffi Eriksdottir for keeping good guys around.
At the end of the game, I often ask my opponent "were there any cards that were just too good? Anything that rotted in your hand?" That way, we end up bringing things to a closer power level.
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A guy named Douglas Linn wrote an introductory article on this alternate format about a year ago. Here is the link: http://www.quietspeculation.com/2012/08/introducing-a-new-format-called-the-danger-room/
A quick summary for those that don't feel like reading the whole thing:
In short this is basically a self contained board game of magic. Games will be random, long, interactive, and (if I build it right) extremely fun. Mr Linn attached the list he built at the end of his article. It looks pretty fun. I intend to use his list as a framework, but I want to select the majority of the cards I use individually.
My goal is to create a format that is extremely interactive, allows for lots of skillful decisions, and has a robust element of randomness. I want to make a format where cards like Auger Spree are good, fatties like Archon of the Triumvirate are the best possible late game topdeck, and Nivix Guildmage is really scary. I want to make a format where combat math is a real thing every turn, and people have to really study board states in order to find the advantageous play.
For now I'm going to exclude Planeswalkers and mythic rares, and expensive cards in general. Because I have complete control over the power level, I won't need to play cards that cost more than .27 cents. In every set there are a few jank cards that are super flavorful, don't see much constructed play, would not cut it in cube, but are popwerful and interesting in their own way. The Mercurial Chemisters of the world. These are the cards I want to focus on and build around.
I'm posting this thread in the cube forum for a couple reasons. One, this is the only forum on MTGs where I hang out. Two, I have a lot of respect for the experience and insight you guys bring to the game of magic, and feel that your cube design experience could be really helpful in creating a good alternate format like Danger Room. Three, I want help. If anyone reads this and think this could be a fun and rewarding project, chime in with your thoughts. I'll post updates as I formulate and playtest my list. If y'all get on board, do the same! Anyone interested???
A note to the Mods: I hope I posted this in the correct thread...
Deckstats: http://deckstats.net/decks/3779/13576-noshadowkick-s-danger-room
Ceatures:
One Drops
Morph Guys:
Sevens:
Eights:
X's:
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Removal:
Sweepers:
Artifacts:
Equipment:
Utility:
Counterrmagic:
Enchantments:
That said, I'm quite interested in changing my Stack to use mana, or at least providing that as an option, as we haven't used it in a while. Looking forward to seeing which cards you decide to include!
Anyway, this is a nice break from other Magic formats especially since the setup is so easy. The difference between Danger Room and Stack is that in Stack you can have more than 10 mana (in a long game), while in Danger Room you can only have up to 10 mana, never more. Furthermore, since the 5 Invasion taplands are used, you have to plan out the sequence in which you play them. You can never have more than 3 of any color of mana available (basic land and 2 of the taplands) so that is a further restriction.
Personally, I prefer Type 4 as my "stack" format, but this is a nice way to use a lot of those cards that don't quite make it in a Cube or Type 4 stack.
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So I've done a good bit of looking around and trying to set a vision for how I want this thing to play. Brian Demars/Doug Lin designed their decks so that creatures like Shivan Dragon and Mahamoti Djin represented the top end of the creature curve. I want to stick to that in terms of power/toughness, but want to incorporate a bit more variety in terms of the abilities of my "bombs". I don't want to be able to drop a creature that can completely take over a game all by itself, but I don't mind having a few powerful dudes that can take you most of the way there. The following are some of the cards I'm hoping to include as "bomb creatures".
Another element I want to include in the stack is cascade. I plan on including pretty much every playable cascade card (except the legendary guy and the 5C enchantment). I think the fact that every player shares the deck will increase the excitement/hilarity of the cascade mechanic.
I also want morph to be a thing. I've looked through all the morph cards and these are the ones I feel merit inclusion based on the power level I'm shooting for:
I plan on making the bread and butter creatures consist of value bears and good defensive creatures. I'll probably include some landwalkers as I think they could add a level of strategy to early turn land drops, as well as some unblockable guys to break through stalled boards. I'll probably include several Ravnica/Return to Ravnica guildmages as well as they can serve as efficient beaters early, and have relevance later in the game. Here are some two drops I'm thinking of including:
And walls:
And some other random multicolor cards that I think would be fun to include:
I still need to flesh out these lists and find good sweepers, spot removal spells, equipment, random fun artifacts, counterspells, draw spells, combat tricks, ect...
Anyone have card suggestions that fit into any of the categories discussed above?
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+1
Also, I would consider using the Worldwake manlands like Celestial Colonnade instead of the boring taplands. Just gives everyone more "spells" to work with at any given moment.
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Evasive Maneuvers for example, or Tribal Flames. I want to add as much strategy to the early land drops as possible, and since everyone has access to all 5, having a domain card in your opening hand will likely influence your first few land drops.
By late game, even crappy cards like Manaforce Mace are going to be all stars!
I'm in the final stages of putting my list together before I do a bulk purchase. I'm hoping to have it sleeved in the next couple weeks. Once I get a final list together I'll post it.
It's kind of sort of like designing a cube too.... ish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siwpn14IE7E
My 450 Cube
Here is my initial draft:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/deck-from-paste-26-04-13-13/
I've only been playing magic since Shards of Alara so you may notice that there aren't a ton of super old cards in there, as was the case with the creators of the format. But hey, it's the cards I like. I think I have too many 2 drops, and I may swap out some of the higher CMC creatures for cheaper$$$ creatures. Also, I'm probably going to have to fiddle a bit with the number of sweepers/removal spells/artifact & enchantment hate, ect... Right now its about 10-13% kill and just over 5% A&E hate.
Anyway, check it out!
PS - Does anyone know of a better deckstats website?
I obviously like the format a lot. One of the underrated aspects of it is that there's no drafting involved unless you want to draft it. You can just pick up stacks of cards from the box and play. That means more Magic, less deckbuilding. It probably also influences me that I'm pretty awful at Cube.
If your goal is interesting interactions between cards and thought-provoking play, then Danger Room catalyzes that more than anything else I've played (except maybe MoJhoSto on MTGO). If you want to make limited decks, draft, force colors, build on efficient mana curves - all the stuff aside from "cast powerful spells and summon mighty monsters" - then maybe Cube is just better for you.
I've started emphasizing the 3cc, 3-power guys in my DR. I think that they're kind of the baseline for what you want to do. They're efficient enough and you don't have to overcome "is this monster better on turn 2 than a tapped land?" So things like Call of the Herd, Lyev Skyknight, Ebony Treefolk and more. noshadowkick, you won't regret maxing out the sweepers. I have just about every one in my box. You need a certain amount to wipe away ground stalls at times.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate the input! Do you have a current list typed up? Where does your curve peak? My current list has about 60 1 drops, 140 2 drops and 100ish 3 drops. I think I need to shave down the two drops anyway.
—Lanxal
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Started ordering my cards. Will post first sleeved up list as soon as it's together!
I also tell myself I need to put Jilt into my deck and it's this running joke internally of how I never remember to. I'd get a foil of Jilt. That card is bonkers.
As far as 3 power 3 drops are concerned, have you considered Aven Mimeomancer? I have always loved the card but until now have never had a format to play it in. Seems like it will be an interesting and challenging card.
One clarifying question: Does each player have their own graveyard or is the graveyard central, like the deck? I'm guessing each player has their own simply because of the way most magic cards are worded, and I think I'll play that way regardless. Cards like Geralf's Mindcrusher become great as filling up your yard would be a great way to gain free card advantage w/ flashback spells and creatures to reanimate, without fear of decking yourself.
Another note on graveyards: I am currently not including any dredge cards as I feel like they would be completely busted in a format with an inexhaustible deck, have you found the same to be true?
So I got the DANGER ROOM stack sleeved up and have managed to play some games games. This format is great! In a lot of ways the stack has played like I hopedIn the games 10-15 games I've played only one of them has been a non-interactive dud. Every other game has been lengthy, engaging, swingy, and interactive, and CLOSE. There has literally been a point in every game where it could have gone either way. I've also been really pleased by how many games are won and lost in the red zone. Combat math is a real thing here and it's awesome. I lost one game because my opponent used Spike Feeder's counter moving ability to pump a creature and take out my best blocker. I had totally forgotten Spike Feeder was anything but a repeatable fog on a stick. Games typically last 10-15 turns, but I've had a couple that went well into the twenties and a couple that ended on turn 7-8. I like the length a lot. Not too long where it's torture, but the game really has a chance to develop which is great.
In other way's the stack has played a bit differently than I expected. I underestimated the effect that not drawing lands has on a game. If you think the average deck in just about every other format is 40% mana, then in DANGER ROOM you are drawing 40% more business spells with no additional effort. Because of this it's common to have 5-8 cards in hand all the way through the game. I've only gone hellbent once so far. Because every card I've drawn is a business spell I've found that some of the artifacts I initially included (Scepter of Insight, Cellar Door, Druidic Satchel) are just not good enough, because I usually have something in my hand I'd rather spend the mana on.
Here are some cards I've cut already for being too powerful:
Tower of Calamities: I thought 8 mana was fair for 12 damage once per turn, but in a format where everyone is guaranteed to get 8 mana on turn 8 the tower is just too good. It's slow, but in any board state that is even remotely close, if the the Tower isn't destroyed promptly, you are going to win.
Magus of the Abyss: Stax effects don't really work in this format as everyone is playing the same deck. If you are ahead on creatures when you drop this, you are going to win. If you are behind it's just not going to do anything for you. Pretty much an unfun card.
Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis: Too many good things in one card. Big beefy flier, and repeatable edicts. There are only a few creatures in the stack that can block a 6/6 flier profitably, and the attack trigger was just too overwhelming. I'm replacing Nefy with Extractor Demon.
Rolling Thunder: This card has always been stupid. It's stupid in this format also. Going to slide in a random NORMAL kill spell in it's place.
Quicksilver Dragon: I was shocked when this card completely dominated in every game it hit the table. 5/5 fliers are rare in the stack and are absolutely the top of the curve for evasive beats. A 5/5 flier that can't be targeted by spot removal was just too good.
On the watch list:
Electropotence: This card is really good late in the game but requires a good bit of setup and loss of tempo to get rolling. It's dominated a couple games for sure but is super weak until late game and can't have a huge board impact until the turn after it's cast. Still not sure if it's too good.
Mercurial Chemister: Same as Electropotence, his discard ability can really wreck the field. I've only seen him come up once and he died after taking out a 3 drop, so I need some more data before I make up my mind. I love the card, but I think ultimately he may be too good.
Cackling Counterpart: An instant speed version of your best creature is pretty insane. It's probably not too good but I've got my eye on it.
Cards cut for being terrible (in addition to those mentioned above):
Reconnaissance: It was great for me in peasant cube, but the addition of good sweepers in this format greatly decreases the occurrence of ground stalls, which is where this card excels.
Honden of Seeing Winds: I'd rather draw 4 with Tidings now.
More thoughts and some changes coming soon!
Ok, back to DANGER ROOM. There are a couple cards I included in my initial list that had a big positive impact:
1. Memory Lapse - this cheap little tempo counter has potential to be the best counterspell variant in a format where everyone draws from the same deck. Counter your bomb/removal spell and draw it for myself next turn? Yes please! There are a lot of cards that do the "top of the library" thing, and I don't want to go overboard here, but I think a couple more of these effects would be fun. I'm thinking Hinder and Nevermaker for the time being. Hinder is pretty self explanatory, but Nevermaker's possible applications are intense. I can evoke to take out ANYTHING on the field, and draw it next turn. It's basically a delayed Confiscate that gives me actual "ownership" of the card. Wierd, but I like it. Also, it's a pretty ballsy blocker. I certainly wouldn't want to swing into a Nevermaker with my Serra Angel or Bull Ceradon.
2. Geralf's Mindcrusher & Breaking // Entering - I had speculated that "self" mill would be good in this format, and I was right. There is no downside, and a deep yard turns on threshold and turbocharges all of your recursion spells. Plus, it's just fun to flip cards into your graveyard from the center deck. I'm a big fan of the graveyard and have built many an EDH, cube, peasant cube, and casual deck that focuses on GY shenanigans. I also want to push GY effects in my DR. I'm going to be swapping out some of the weaker card draw artifacts/enchantments I mentioned in the previous post for good mill cards. I'm thinking Grindclock, Sands of Delirium, Codex Shredder, Splinterfright and potentially Wood Sage (may be too weak) . I wish there was a piece of equipment that self milled... There are more cards I'm considering but I want to play some games with the new additions before pushing this aspect more.
I also need to add more sweepers. I currently have about 25 in a 500 card stack, and it's just not enough - the sweepers I'm considering adding are:
Not all of these are true sweepers, but they are cards that can effect clogged boards in a big way, and be used surgically by the experienced player.
Finally, a swap I'm very excited about:
Archon of the Triumvirate - - - > Trostani's Summoner
The Archon is a fine card, but it just doesn't gel with me. It feels stupid and unflavorful somehow and isn't really what I'm looking for at the 7 slot. Summoner on the other hand is VALUE CITY for 7 mana and right at the power level I'm looking for. Just imagine flipping her into your yard with an Animate Dead in your hand Everybody loves tokens!
That's all for now kids. Check out my list and leave a comment if you have any thoughts/suggestions!
Restrictions... like a custom power level? It doesn't need to include the most powerful cards within whatever restrictions. Any custom card pool made for limited is a cube. This 'danger room' is a 'stack', which to me is just a specific type of cube.
As I've seen stacks posted in the 'cube lists' sub-forum, I see no reason why this one can't be there too. Just title it [500] noshadowkick's Danger-Room Stack or something.
@ noshadowkick
I fed your list into deckstats.net (to generate some opening hands) and got the following:
Unfortunately, the following card names could not be identified:
note: Magiccards.info clocked the median cost at $323.62 for ~580 cards
You also have similar cards in other areas - Courier's Capsule, Staff of Nin, Stupor, etc.
I feel like anyone who gets one of the better cards here will have way too much advantage, as there are very few of them. I've removed all of the direct large-card-advantage cards from my stack to avoid this issue... were any of your games strongly influenced by these?
How important have the sweepers been? They can obviously generate card advantage, so perhaps it's not as big a deal as I've thought. Are there any creatures that excel too much at combat? Perhaps Truefire Paladin? Or does the number and type of lands limit how powerful these types of mana sinks can be? Have any cards surprised you by how strong they were?
As for the powerful draw spells, I think I may have too many, but not because they are too powerful for the format. In fact most games where I have a draw spell it feels like a dead card because my hand is so stocked with other options. I'm definitely cutting Blue Sun's Zenith as it's just too clunky to leave UUU open to cast it, and will likely cut Opportunity for being and Ido want to include some more 2 and 3 cost draw spells to even the curve out a bit. I wanted to include powerful draw spells to provide a comeback feature. Since everyone is drawing off the top it can be a real drag to be in topdeck mode (with btw has only happened once in the 20 or so games I've played). There HAVE been a few times when a player had a Mind Spring or something in their opener and waited until turn 9 to cast it after intentionally dumping their hand, but it by no means broke the game wide open as the other player was sitting pretty good themselves. I've yet to see a game where both players are running low on cards then one topdecks a Skeletal Scrying and runs away with the game. But it could definitely happen and would be a super lame way to finish a match. I'll keep an eye on it. Were the draw spells an issue in your stack when you play it with lands?
Sweepers have been really important, in fact I'm adding more. Right now I have 25 in a 500 card stack, so about one sweeper in every 20 cards, but there have been plenty of games where nobody draws a sweeper and the board gets clogged up. I don't want the games to become too sweeper focused and have the board blown up every third turn, but I feel like I need 4-5 more good sweepers to have a density that feels right. If the board is wiped an average of twice a game I'd be ok with it. Plus, the reason I built this stack was to have long and interactive games, and sweepers help make that happen. They give the game a sense of evolution and progress.
Creatures: Yea there have been a lot of surprises. As previously mentioned I've cut Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis, and Quicksilver Dragon for being either impossible to deal with or oppressive. I'm cutting Mercurial Chemister as well. The dude is just too good. Manor Gargoyle is also getting the Axe. He's just too darn tough to get rid of. I'd be ok with a 3/3 creature without flying with his abilities, but a 4/4 flier that can dodge tons of removal and survive most sweepers is just too strong. As far as combat is concerned there haven't been all that many. As far as combat is concerned, I'm cutting Skyhunter Skirmisher because there are too many way's to buff his stat's and win out of nowhere. I like doublestrike a lot, but I'm going to restrict it to ground pounders and fat sorceries for DR purposes. The combo of double strike and evasion was too good. Truefire Paladin has been really good for us but I don't think he's over the top. Because of mana restriction he can only activate 3 times a turn, which either makes him a 6/2 with first trike or an 8/2, which are both really good stats to be going into the red zone with, but it takes 6 mana to make it happen which can be a huge loss of tempo. There are also plenty of ways to get rid of a 2 toughness creature in the DR. That said he is definitely in the top 10 two drops and if he dominates too many games or becomes oppressive I'll cut him in a heartbeat.
Some random cards that surprised me for being super strong in this format:
All cascade cards, even the crappy ones like Demonic Dread and Stormcaller's Boon. Plus cascade is probably the most fun mechanic ever created. I'm picking up a BBE asap.
Cauldron Haze - has been a blast and very much worth the slot.
I'm sure there are more but that's all I've got for now. I'll post the fixed list including changes soon!
Regarding powerful enchantments - I tend to limit these because there's not as much enchantment kill in my stack as artifact kill.
DGM has been really good for the format. I'm adding a bunch of the Fuse cards, along with things like Master of Aquittals.
Also, repeatable sacrifice effects are super strong. Goblin Bombardment and Mortarpod are lordly. I'll probably put Goblin Sharpshooter in the deck, too. Gelectrode is a fine monster, as is Staticaster.
Nice find with Inheritance, I'm going to pick one up ASAP. Have you found Fires of Yavimaya to be too strong? I completely ran away with a game last night when I untapped with Fires on the field. I want to have some sort of permanent that grants haste but I'm wondering if Fires is too strong. Crimson Mage perhaps?
I probably have more cards from DGM in the stack than any other expansion:
The Battleshaper is by far my favorite from the set. Such a solid effect without being over the top.
For repeatable sac outlets I'm running Goblin Bombardment, Mortarpod, Carrion Feeder, Scarland Thrinax, Phyrexian Plaguelord, and Fallen Ideal. I feel like that's a pretty good number, but I wouldn't mind a couple more.
I've been considering Goblin Sharpshooter, but have been concerned about powerlevel. Gelectrode is a blast and I'm already planning on picking up an Izzet Staticaster from my LGS this evening
I've found cheap discard outlets for spell effects can be really helpful as I it's easy to have dead cards in your hand once the board is developed. I really like Waterfront Bouncer, Overtaker, and Undertaker, and I'm considering Dawnstrider and/or Cho-Arrim Alchemist. Mercadian Masques all the way! Compulsion is another card I really dig. Giving every card in your hand cycling is pretty good.
Creatures:
I made the following changes based on preference. Power level wasn't an issue with any of the cards being cut, I just wasn't a huge fan of them in the stack. Especially Morkrut Banshee... that art creeps me out.
Nimble Mongoose ---> Pride Guardian
Tower Gargoyle ---> Sangromancer
Tower Geist ---> Nevermaker
Masked Admirers ---> Bloodbraid Elf
Marsh Flitter ---> Archeomancer
Morkrut Banshee ---> Ingot Chewer
Okiba-Gang Shinobi ---> Splinterfright
Archon of the Triumvirate ---> Trostani's Summoner
Garruk's Packleader ---> Sphinx of Lost Truths
Windreaver ---> Jelenn Sphinx
Frontline Strategist ---> Undertaker
Rushwood Dryad ---> Woodlot Crawler
I made the following changes because the cards I had in were overpowered for the format.
Quicksilver Dragon ---> Izzet Staticaster
Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis ---> Extractor Demon
Manor Gargoyle ---> Knight-Captain of Eos
Mercurial Chemister ---> Phyrexian Plaguelord
OTHER CHANGES:
Cage of Hands ---> Crib Swap
Fires of Yavimaya ---> Copy Artifact
Return to Dust ---> Seed Spark
Word of Seizing ---> Otherworldly Journey
Voices from the Void ---> Tortured Existence
Stitch Together ---> Necromancy
Sleep ---> Do or Die
Soul Quake ---> Austere Command
Opaline Bracers ---> Travel Preparations
Stupor ---> Zealous Persecution
Blue Sun's Zenith ---> Inheritance
Honden of Seeing Winds ---> Compulsion
Electropotence ---> Spidersilk Armor
Pain Magnification ---> Angelic Shield
Puca's Mischief ---> Oversold Cemetery
Dismantling Blow ---> Nature's Claim
Aura of Silence ---> Solemn Offering
Opportunity ---> Pilfered Plans
Rolling Thunder ---> Warped Physique
Ravenous Trap ---> Memory's Journey
Druidic Satchel ---> Codex Shredder
Tower of Calamities ---> Sands of Delirium
Scepter of Insight ---> Grindclock
Cellar Door ---> Medicine Bag
The following cards I simply added to the DR:
I had three goals in making these changes:
1. Get rid of OP cards: This includes creatures like Quicksilver Dragon and enchantments like Fires of Yavimaya and Electropotence. I had a bunch of cards in the stack that pretty much won you the game if you untapped with them and your opponent didn't have the perfect answer immediately or were too oppressive or hard to remove. As much as I loved some of them (Mercurial Chemister :(), they had to go for the health of the format.
2. Push graveyard shenanigans: Grindclock, Sands of Delirium, Codex Shredder, Wood Sage, Splinterfright, Jace's Erasure, Necromancy, Oversold Cemetery, Undertaker, Tortured Existence, Archeomancer. I also added a couple more flashback cards.
3. Tighten up the DR: These changes were general and mostly based on what I subjectively felt would strengthen the format. If you look over the changes you'll notice I added a good bit of lifegain. In the DR lifegain actually matters. I also cut some weak enchantments and lowered the curve on my draw spells a bit. Aslo, I removed the non-surgical discard spells, as they weren't fun. Seeing someone's hand and taking their bomb is fun. Making someone pitch 5 and running away with the game because you still have 5 cards in hand is not. I also added a few more sweepers and soft sweepers because I felt they were needed.
I have yet to play with the changes, but feel really good about them. I'm telling you guys, this format is a blast and needs smart magic players like you to refine and develop it! UNCLE NOSHADOWKICK WANT'S YOU TO BUILD A DANGER ROOM!
I know you cut Tower of Calamities but I'll suggest Aladdin's Ring. It's a reasonable mana cost for the effect. There are often better things you can be doing with 8 mana than shotgunning something, but it's good to have around.
Good call on Extractor Demon!
Walls are really good in this format, by the way. Wall of Heat is a monster and a friend of mine just cut Wall of Swords from his list because it's just too serious.
Speaking of lifegain, I like Braidwood Cup and Fountain of Youth. They tend to add up pretty quickly. Well of Life (and Well of Discovery) are both pretty solid, too.
You might want to put Masked Admirers back in with all your graveyard effects!
Medicine Bag is really good; glad to see other people appreciating it, too. It totally screws up combat math. I like Angelic Renewal and Saffi Eriksdottir for keeping good guys around.
At the end of the game, I often ask my opponent "were there any cards that were just too good? Anything that rotted in your hand?" That way, we end up bringing things to a closer power level.