Hey Tosub, good to have another Danger Roomer on the thread! I've read through your posts, and overall I agree with your philosophy and most of your card selections. Can you post the link to Brian Demar's "holodeck" list? I'd be curious to see it. A couple more thoughts I had interacting with your posts.
1. I agree that cards that count creatures in the GY (ie Splinterfright) are OP. I had a few in my DR for a while but had to cut them because they warped every game.
2. I do include 1 draw an extra card every turn effect: Staff of Nin. I havent found it to be OP. 6 mana is fair for the effect in this format IMO.
3. Have you found the 10 card max hand size effects games? I think 9 is just right for us as it forces you to start playing crap rather than just dropping ETBT lands for the first 5 turns. We also ban mulligans. I don't foil things though... to pricey with the rate of turnover in ny DR.
4. Cards you mentioned that I hadn't thought of but really like:
Ensnaring Bridge (I want one but I wont pay $15 to get it)
Shipwreck Singer: I'm going to replace Alluring Siren with this card.
Dimir Charm
Tymaret: I like him a lot but I wonder if he provides too much reach... I just started imcluding legendary creatures in my DR so I hadn't thought of him earlier.
5. Cards you don't like that I like a lot:
Mindspring
Forgotten Ancient: I know he's a beast, but my group loves him.
6. Your method of adding cards: I try and keep my list to ~450 cards. I like having a tight list and try and make cuts each set to make space for new cads. That said my list is slowly growing. Do you find your games less consistent as you continually add cards?
What do you think of Journey Into Nyx? IMO this is the best set I've seen for DR in a long time. Specifically, the strive cards are very strong and interesting. I am always looking for more ways to deal with board stalls other than plain sweepers. These strive cards are exactly what I'm looking for. They are combat tricks that can scale to become huge board altering effects if used correctly. These are the cards I'm planning to include from the new set:
Ajani's Presence
Aerial Formation
Hour of Need
Polymorphus Rush (maybe)
Silence the Believers
Desparate Stand
Harness by Force
Twinflame
Consign to Dust
Setessan Tactics
Sigiled Starfish
Dakra Mystic
Cyclops of Eternal Fury
Agent of Erebos
There are probably more but that's what I got right now. I'll likely comb back through all of the heroic creatures with all the new combat tricks I'm adding.
I've spent more time with looking through the full spoiler and have found a few more cards I want to include:
Quarry Colossus: Solid fatty that removes their best threat and gives it to you next turn unless they can draw an extra card. Dramatic!
Font of Fortunes: Enchantment version of the Couriers Capsule, which has done great work for me.
Pull From the Deep: Great recursion.
Thassa's Ire: Nice little tapper!
Doomwake Giant: Minisweeper on a fatty.
Nyx Weaver: Really cool card. Will be fun to play with!
Chariot of Victory: Three great abilities, fair cost.
All told that's 21 cards from Journey to Nyx going in the DR. WHAT A GREAT SET!
Would either of you (or anyone else who's reading) mind sharing your list? I haven't had the opportunity to play mine in a while, but I want to rework it to include more card draw for next time. For some reason, I had a strict rule that no card could draw more than a single card. I'd like to experiment with adding those kinds of cards and am not sure where to start.
Between Walls. I have an outdated list in my sig. I've made a bunch of changes since then, but it's a good approximation. The card draw spells haven't changed muc
I'd definitely add more draw, and splashy draw at that. Big draw acts as a safety valve to keep people in the game. There are times where it can be the final nail in the coffin when a player has a dominant board position and draws 4 cards... but more often it helps keep people in the game. If I'm ahead I usually dont want to sacrifice tempo to play Opportunity.
I'm looking to add more cheap beaters to my DR along the lines of Watchwolf, and maybe a few 2 power 1 drops. I want to give more incentive to play aggresively in the early stages of the game, and most of the cheap creatures I've included are nifty utility creatures like Granger Guildmage. Also going to add a few more 3 power 3 drops. Drakewing Krasis and Rakdos Augermage for starters. I'm really excited to play with the Augermage. On it's own 3 power first strike for 3 is good enough, and he creates and interesting incentive to empy your hand so you can start sniping your opponent's hand.
On another note, I'll be watching conspiracy spoilers closely. I don't draft the DR, so none of the conspiracy or draft manipulation cards will work, but the "Will of the Council" and "Dethrone" mechanics seem interesting and could spice up the odd 3 player game, while retaiting 1v1 playability.
Dryad Militant: Solid little beater with relevant grave hate in all stages of the game. Woot. Shipwreck Singer: Going in for Alluring Siren, all around upgrade and a more tactical card. Infiltrator il-Kor: Great unblockable beater a-la Latchseeker, one of a few suspend cards. I've found that suspending a solid threat does a lot to make people think before Wrathing the board. Something I'm always looking to do. Durkwood Baloth: You can always spare G and a 5/5 is worth a lot in this format, even if you have to wait 5 turns. I also added the blue 4/4 flyer that suspends for 1U. Don't remember it's name off the top of my head. Beastbreaker of Bala Ged: Beefy guy that is scalable. Great art too!
And... the big one. This might be a really bad idea but I have to try it: Skaab Ruinator. BOOM. Such a cool card. Easy on the mana, but you have to jump through hoops. 3 creatures is no problem once by mid game, maybe even twice if you clogged the board and then got wrathed. However, he gets totally blanked by grave hate. I think it'll powerful but balanced... we'll see if I'm right. Self milling this guy is basically winning the lottery
I'm glad I found this discussion - Danger Room has been by far my favorite way to play lately.
I've been meaning to update my list, but here's what is currently being played:
deckstats.net/decks/16947/95856-800-pound-gorilla-danger-room- (Sorry it's not linked. As a new member, I can't post links yet.)
There's also a few house rules we play with:
1) You can mulligan up to two times, getting a new hand of 6 each time. With a larger stack to play from, there can be quite a bit of variance, so we felt that mulligans were a good idea. It's been working out, plus it adds a decision on how aggressively you want to mulligan.
2) Something we picked up from Hearthstone - The second player starts the game with a Lotus Petal in his hand. I was pretty dubious trying this out at first, but I absolutely think this is for the best, at least with my stack. If you win the die roll you still typically choose to go first, but it feels a lot more fair for the second player. Now admittedly, this may just work for my stack which has a lot of targeted removal - where if someone is able to an early board position it's not too hard to maintain it.
A couple of points:
-I run very few 1-drop creatures. We felt that the majority provided very little influence on the board, and frankly we found Soul Warden and it's ilk to be just a tad too annoying without having significant enough of a payout. Obviously personal preference.
-Around turn 7 or 8 is when it starts to get a little scary to tap out. There's nothing so disheartening/frustrating as having your opponent ask you, "You're tapped out?"
-It definitely gets more fun the more experience both players have with the card pool. Their open mana includes 2 blue? They probably have a counterspell, which you need to bait our. Or, they don't have one and you just spent 3 turns making suboptimal plays instead of playing the bomb in your hand.
Interesting house rules! I tried second player getting a Jeweled Amulet. It didn't have much of a distortive effect, either - you were usually better off playing tapped lands instead of charging it. Plus, the art is kind of cool.
I cut a bunch of one-drops. Savannah Lions sucks to draw. Soul Warden, as you said, is a pest. There's good utility at 1, like Kris Mage, Grim Lavamancer, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Granger Guildmage, Jace's Phantasm, Will-o-the-wisp, etc. but they have to be really good off the top later in the game. I cut Mother of Runes because it was wretchedly unfun to play against. It was like Mistmeadow Witch. You have to spend two spells to kill her.
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I still play Mother of Runes. She's almost always strong, but there's only been one game where she was absolutely bonkers. Granger Guildmage was cut only recently as he wasn't pulling his weight. He may make his way back in eventually. Mistmeadow Witch was cut for being too good. At least Mother of Runes dies to a Wrath of God like everything else.
A few of the cards I'm keeping an eye on in case they're too strong:
Fervent Charge - If allowed to stick around, this card can be absolutely brutal. Strangely enough, Glory of Warfare has been much less problematic. Moldervine Cloak - Dredge is good in this format. +3/+3 is really good in my stack. Together it might be just a little too much. Stinkweed Imp is annoying, but hasn't seemed overly powerful. Exalted Angel - Seraph of Dawn is pretty good. I actually cut Vampire Nighthawk for being just a little bit too efficient. Honestly, Exalted Angel gets to stay only because of the fun factor that Morph brings to the game.
The creature you should be playing with but probably aren't? Akki Underling. It's pretty easy to have 7 cards in your hand, and then this guy becomes one heck of a beast.
I keep Seraph of Dawn around too, but it does get a little nutty - especially with any Aura or equipment. I haven't tried Cloak much at all.
I cut Fervent Charge when I also cut Grafted Wargear. Those two cards made creatures irrelevant - you could swing with a Prodigal Sorcerer and it was always the right decision. And anything the opponent drew, if it was not at least x/4, was also irrelevant. Fervent Charge was fun to cast with that wacky mana cost, though.
I've put the Underling on a list of things to get. That reminds me about Descendant of Kiyamaro, which is also pretty good.
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I've been updating my Danger Room stack, based largely on cards mentioned in this thread, and it's gotten me thinking about the inclusion of some cards.
I don't want any cards to be flat out better than others. Situational uses can be fine though. I removed Terminate, as the BR casting cost is not prohibitive, and it was strongly overshadowing cards like Dark Banishing, Murder, Eyeblight's Ending, and Rend Flesh. I'm debating on removing Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt, and while both cards are likely stronger than Terminate, it's easier to point out situational advantages that other similar cards may have. Time will tell.
I would really like people's opinions on cards like Fireball, Ghitu Fire, etc. These cards occasionally cause games to end in a very anticlimactic manner, but at the same time I feel like their very existence sometimes prevents the late game from stagnating. If a player gets into burn range, they often take risks they might otherwise not take, or may very obviously keep mana open to signal a counterspell that they may or may not have. How the opponent reacts to these situations can provide a lot of information, and as a result the late game can feel very tense for both players. Until a Fireball for 9 actually resolves. So right now I'm keeping them in, viewing them as a sort of necessary evil. I don't particularly like it when they are played and win a game, but I do like the indirect impact to the style of play that these cards have. Any thoughts?
I put together a stack but with one caveat. Everything is playable for 3 mana or less i.e. assault // battery, Riftwing Cloudskate, Devil's Play, and Mulldrifter are all in along with cards with CMC >/= 3. When I first made a "normal" DR stack I kept finding individual cards would take over the game or hands would get cluttered up with odd casting cost spells. With this new version everything is always playable and you have to think very carefully about which spell is best for the given board state. I play with two players and games tend to end with a card or two in each player's hand and most of the 10 lands played by each player. I find it plays a lot like "fair" legacy games i.e. delver vs zoo, fish vs team America. So far, I have not had a problem with individual cards taking over. When "building" the stack I tried to include lots of playable removal, aggressive creatures, combat tricks, and even sweepers that complied with the restriction. I worked to exclude cards like Wall of Omens and Wall Of Denial as I was worried they would bog the game down into a starring contest. I would highly recommend giving it a try, just pull 60 or so cards that fit the requirement from your stack and game on.
Additionally, has anyone tried adding a utility land to the 10 land reserve pack? It was hinted upon in Ben Stark's article but I cannot think of a land I think would be fun to put there. I considered all sorts such as Kessig Wolf Run, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, and Blinkmouth Nexus, but none seem particularly appealing. Maybe Alchemist's Refuge or perhaps a pick of/ randomly assignment of one of the 10 innistrad utility lands? Has anyone tried this variant?
I, too, have recently built a Danger Room, being inspired by the articles and then this thread. While my 451-card stack has only been played twice, it was met with stirring reviews from the 6, then 7, players who used it. I am currently looting this thread and your lists for card ideas.
We keep a shared graveyard, making the gy-based cards much more entertaining. To facilitate this, I have lots of milling and discard-for-effect cards (alongside more traditional discard spells), as well as lots of flashback, reanimation, and targeted recursion; Null Brooch and Spellbound Dragon, as well as assorted looting effects keeps everyone on their toes. It occurs to me that adding/acquiring Turbulent Dreams, Sickening Dreams, Restless Dreams, and Nostalgic Dreams (and the suggested Medicine Bag) would be a good idea.
The discussion about what determines an overpowered card in this format is interesting and one I am watching, primarily for cards to add. My logic is that if most, if not all, cards are potent, games are more entertaining, or at least faster, and with multiple opponents, some cards won't auto-win like they may in a duel.
While I briefly considered adding some utility lands for variety, in the end, permanent mana is something I don't want in my DR. Temporary boosts, though, are fair game. Given the shared graveyard, Songs of the Damned and Spoils of Evil were shoe-ins, with Mana Geyser a distant second, due to multiplayer potential. The suggestion of Rosheen Meanderer is interesting, given its Xspell restrictions; I have a small amount of land-untappers, but these are tough to use.
My current build has tried a small proliferate theme, but frankly, most of the proliferate cards are awful, so may go before they ever see play!
Built my first danger room, the link is in my signature. 105 cards currently due to I ran out of sleeves. Will be testing it out this thursday in the Philippines
It's been a while since I've posted and it's great to see people getting into the format. My Danger Room has lain dormant for a few months, but previews from Kahns of Tarkir have stoked my creative flames! After a few month break, I feel like the games I've plade recently have given me a fresh perspective on the DR. I'm going to be doing a fairly significant update over the next few weeks. My goals:
1. Bring up the power level a couple notches. I'm not trying "cubify" the DR, but I do feel like it could use a shot in the arm. Hopefully I can move it away from "strong peasant" to "dollar rare."
2. Incorporate interesting cards from Theros Block, M15, and KTK. There are a lot of cool cards that are already in print that I haven't looked into yet... and KTK looks like the best thing for this format since RTR block.
3. Adjust my permanent/nonpermanent ratio. My DR is very creature/permanent heavy and the board state I've experienced in recent games has felt gummy and clogged. I want to cut back on creatures and add more fun instants/sorceries. I'm going to seriously trim my one drop creatures as part of this step.
4. Be organized, get an update list online. I've made TONS of changes since I updated my deckstats list so I'm just going to start over with a new one.
Thoughts on KTK to follow. I have to stay, the return of morph has me pumped!
I'd begun to wonder if I am a threadkiller. Glad to see I am not.
My games are stil 6-8 people each, and games are getting explosive (though not always ending) at about turn 6-7; answers abound, so our board states never get to gummed up.
Determining what to cut gets more difficult with each new card, especially as I try to keep parity among colors. Still, feedback from other players keeps it humming along.
Definitely a fun format.
Cheers!
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6-8 in one game? That's intense! Do you run into issues with there being too much removal/too many board wipes flying around? How long do your games last? Do you have a list together?
Typically we play 1v1 (smaaaaaall playgroug), but sometimes we can get 4 to sit down. We've found that with more than 2 players, games can drag to turn 20 or longer sometimes, due to the amount of board wipes I run. I'm hoping to streamline things a bit and tailor my more for 1v1 play.
I have never tried to balance my colors exactly, but as I undertake my DR overhaul I may try and get them close. I feel you about the difficult cuts, I love every card in my DR.
KTK:
All 5 charms. All told I want to run one charm for each 3 color combo. The 5 KTK charms are all nutz, and I'll be able to pick the best of the Alara/Dragon charms to round it out.
Morph Creatures: Thousand Winds: The morph cost is expensive but this guy is going to win games in interesting ways. Grim Haruspex: Great little engine card. Also 3 power for 3 mana is my baseline for a solid attacker. This guy is the complete DR package. Jeering Instigator: I'm not 100% sold on this, but he does seem interesting. Master of Pearls: Could be a less janky Tribal Forcemage, but I'm leery of anthems in this format. Less than 50/50 on this one. Icefeather Aven: Exactly what I'm looking for in a morph. Options and the ability to affect the board.
Other Creatures: Necropolis Fiend: Delve will be great for this format. Hooting Mandrils: Not very interesting but a 4/4 trampler is solid on the ground and this guy will usually cost G. Avalanche Tusker: Love this effect. Mantis Rider: Yeehaw! I run Lightning Angel but may replace it with this guy. I have a lot of 3 power fliers but not many 4 power fliers so Lightning Angel tends to rip airborne defenses to shreds, maybe even a little too much. Or I might just run both because lightning angel is a fav. Kheru Lich Lord: If the "random" clause wasn't in his text he'd be too good. As it is I think this card will be a blast and a half.
We have only played out all 10 lands a few times, with games getting swingy and ending (often thru graveyard shenanigans) between 6-9. I have not duelled with this pile, though, so don't know how it would fare in that regard. The advantage of so many players (and looting effects) is that we see lots of cards during play, which helps ensure bombs are found and played.
I linked to my deck a few posts up.
Your review of newer cards is good food for thought. Thanks.
Cheers!
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Turn 6-9 is pretty quick. When we duel games usually end on turn 8-12ish. Multiplayer games often go much longer. In looking through your list it seems I run more mass removal... I'm wondering if I should cut some sweepers. Good food for thought.
Full spoiler is up! There are more interesting cards! Brave the Sands: I like this mix of abilities for the cost. The enchantment grants solid defensive abilities that will make the combat decision insteresting and probably promote some aggressive attacks. End Hostilities: Semi blandish Wrath variant, but it's better than some of the janky oldschool ones I'm running and can hit equipment and auras which is kinda cool I guess. Quiet Contemplation: Adds a lot of utility to instants. Not 100% but I'll probably give it a try. Burn Away: Expensive removal that has a few things going for it. 1) Only one colored cost requirement, 2) it will kill just about any creature in the DR, and 3) it nukes the opponents yard. Interesting package! Goblinslide: Same type of thing as quiet contemplation. Could be used to build a passable board presence without overcomitting if you suspect the other guy is holding a sweeper. Plus the art is just great. Armament Corps: A 5 mana 6/6 or a 5 mana 4/4 that makes your evasive threats much scarier. Mardu Roughrider: Kind of the opposite of Avalanche Tusker. Honestly it's the art that makes me most interested in the card. Warden of the Eye: Straight upgrade to Izzet Chronarch.
The shared graveyard with no way to exile cards therein is what tends to end games, particularly when Songs of the Damned or Spoils of Evil provide 30+ mana for something ugly and explosive. Anger hits the gy ASAP, which moves the game along, as might Mass Hysteria and other mass haste enablers. Filth led to boring combats, so it worked, but got the axe.
Reading your decklist, a standout was all of the defenders; I prefer vigilance, so I can swing, as well - too many solid defenders can slow things down, necessitating more sweepers.
Cheers!
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Just like with the Dragon Cube, there's more focus on the big stuff.
While this may seem like it'd just be "PLAY ALL THE EDH BIG GUYS", that's less what I'd want.
Being the world of board wipes, EDH big guys usually have some sort of massive game shifty enter the battlefield ability, which isn't really what I want.
I want a home for the big, big vanilla guys, the 5/5's with neat abilities and the stuff that's too expensive for constructed magic but not swingy enough to get noticed in EDH- all those poor orphan cards you see in the dollar box and think "this is such a neat design. It's a pity it never got played".
As a way of balancing things, the manabase I'd look to have would be 15 lands- the kahns refuge cycle (fixes and adds more life) and one of each basic.
15 lands may seem like overkill, but a good deal of that is going to be because I'd set life totals at 100.
This may seem weird, but it rebalances things in such a way that those 5/5s are a 20 turn clock, just like a 1/1 would be in everyday normal magic.
Clearly it will make play a bit more durdly... 100 life is a LOT.
But it leads to interesting choices.
Anything that's a 1/1 or 2/2 and would get played probably would have a pretty awesome ability that makes it trade up with those massive monsters.
Landwalkers can be interestings, because lands coming in to play tapped will slow things down, and making it an interesting decision about whether you should be slower in your development and not open yourself up to another form of evasion or faster but giving a potential opening.
One of the big upsides to this, in my eyes, is that you'd not have a ton of overlap if you had another Danger Room or Battle Box that was more like the "average" one... many of the cards you'd actually use and like playing in this one would likely be pretty bad in those contexts. There's so many cards that are so interesting but with no home.
Sweeney - have you gone beyond the idea stage with this, perhaps posting a list somewhere?
100 does seem a bit much. Perhaps try it with 40, then add increments of 10 for each game until you hit a decent number? From your written description, it implies lots of creatures and little else, making for potentially marathon games.
Cheers!
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1. I agree that cards that count creatures in the GY (ie Splinterfright) are OP. I had a few in my DR for a while but had to cut them because they warped every game.
2. I do include 1 draw an extra card every turn effect: Staff of Nin. I havent found it to be OP. 6 mana is fair for the effect in this format IMO.
3. Have you found the 10 card max hand size effects games? I think 9 is just right for us as it forces you to start playing crap rather than just dropping ETBT lands for the first 5 turns. We also ban mulligans. I don't foil things though... to pricey with the rate of turnover in ny DR.
4. Cards you mentioned that I hadn't thought of but really like:
Ensnaring Bridge (I want one but I wont pay $15 to get it)
Shipwreck Singer: I'm going to replace Alluring Siren with this card.
Dimir Charm
Tymaret: I like him a lot but I wonder if he provides too much reach... I just started imcluding legendary creatures in my DR so I hadn't thought of him earlier.
5. Cards you don't like that I like a lot:
Mindspring
Forgotten Ancient: I know he's a beast, but my group loves him.
6. Your method of adding cards: I try and keep my list to ~450 cards. I like having a tight list and try and make cuts each set to make space for new cads. That said my list is slowly growing. Do you find your games less consistent as you continually add cards?
What do you think of Journey Into Nyx? IMO this is the best set I've seen for DR in a long time. Specifically, the strive cards are very strong and interesting. I am always looking for more ways to deal with board stalls other than plain sweepers. These strive cards are exactly what I'm looking for. They are combat tricks that can scale to become huge board altering effects if used correctly. These are the cards I'm planning to include from the new set:
Ajani's Presence
Aerial Formation
Hour of Need
Polymorphus Rush (maybe)
Silence the Believers
Desparate Stand
Harness by Force
Twinflame
Consign to Dust
Setessan Tactics
Sigiled Starfish
Dakra Mystic
Cyclops of Eternal Fury
Agent of Erebos
There are probably more but that's what I got right now. I'll likely comb back through all of the heroic creatures with all the new combat tricks I'm adding.
Quarry Colossus: Solid fatty that removes their best threat and gives it to you next turn unless they can draw an extra card. Dramatic!
Font of Fortunes: Enchantment version of the Couriers Capsule, which has done great work for me.
Pull From the Deep: Great recursion.
Thassa's Ire: Nice little tapper!
Doomwake Giant: Minisweeper on a fatty.
Nyx Weaver: Really cool card. Will be fun to play with!
Chariot of Victory: Three great abilities, fair cost.
All told that's 21 cards from Journey to Nyx going in the DR. WHAT A GREAT SET!
Here's what I currently have, give or take a few cards: http://deckbox.org/sets/419368
I'd definitely add more draw, and splashy draw at that. Big draw acts as a safety valve to keep people in the game. There are times where it can be the final nail in the coffin when a player has a dominant board position and draws 4 cards... but more often it helps keep people in the game. If I'm ahead I usually dont want to sacrifice tempo to play Opportunity.
On another note, I'll be watching conspiracy spoilers closely. I don't draft the DR, so none of the conspiracy or draft manipulation cards will work, but the "Will of the Council" and "Dethrone" mechanics seem interesting and could spice up the odd 3 player game, while retaiting 1v1 playability.
Dryad Militant: Solid little beater with relevant grave hate in all stages of the game. Woot.
Shipwreck Singer: Going in for Alluring Siren, all around upgrade and a more tactical card.
Infiltrator il-Kor: Great unblockable beater a-la Latchseeker, one of a few suspend cards. I've found that suspending a solid threat does a lot to make people think before Wrathing the board. Something I'm always looking to do.
Durkwood Baloth: You can always spare G and a 5/5 is worth a lot in this format, even if you have to wait 5 turns. I also added the blue 4/4 flyer that suspends for 1U. Don't remember it's name off the top of my head.
Beastbreaker of Bala Ged: Beefy guy that is scalable. Great art too!
And... the big one. This might be a really bad idea but I have to try it: Skaab Ruinator. BOOM. Such a cool card. Easy on the mana, but you have to jump through hoops. 3 creatures is no problem once by mid game, maybe even twice if you clogged the board and then got wrathed. However, he gets totally blanked by grave hate. I think it'll powerful but balanced... we'll see if I'm right. Self milling this guy is basically winning the lottery
That's all for now!
I've been meaning to update my list, but here's what is currently being played:
deckstats.net/decks/16947/95856-800-pound-gorilla-danger-room- (Sorry it's not linked. As a new member, I can't post links yet.)
There's also a few house rules we play with:
1) You can mulligan up to two times, getting a new hand of 6 each time. With a larger stack to play from, there can be quite a bit of variance, so we felt that mulligans were a good idea. It's been working out, plus it adds a decision on how aggressively you want to mulligan.
2) Something we picked up from Hearthstone - The second player starts the game with a Lotus Petal in his hand. I was pretty dubious trying this out at first, but I absolutely think this is for the best, at least with my stack. If you win the die roll you still typically choose to go first, but it feels a lot more fair for the second player. Now admittedly, this may just work for my stack which has a lot of targeted removal - where if someone is able to an early board position it's not too hard to maintain it.
A couple of points:
-I run very few 1-drop creatures. We felt that the majority provided very little influence on the board, and frankly we found Soul Warden and it's ilk to be just a tad too annoying without having significant enough of a payout. Obviously personal preference.
-Around turn 7 or 8 is when it starts to get a little scary to tap out. There's nothing so disheartening/frustrating as having your opponent ask you, "You're tapped out?"
-It definitely gets more fun the more experience both players have with the card pool. Their open mana includes 2 blue? They probably have a counterspell, which you need to bait our. Or, they don't have one and you just spent 3 turns making suboptimal plays instead of playing the bomb in your hand.
I cut a bunch of one-drops. Savannah Lions sucks to draw. Soul Warden, as you said, is a pest. There's good utility at 1, like Kris Mage, Grim Lavamancer, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Granger Guildmage, Jace's Phantasm, Will-o-the-wisp, etc. but they have to be really good off the top later in the game. I cut Mother of Runes because it was wretchedly unfun to play against. It was like Mistmeadow Witch. You have to spend two spells to kill her.
A few of the cards I'm keeping an eye on in case they're too strong:
Fervent Charge - If allowed to stick around, this card can be absolutely brutal. Strangely enough, Glory of Warfare has been much less problematic.
Moldervine Cloak - Dredge is good in this format. +3/+3 is really good in my stack. Together it might be just a little too much. Stinkweed Imp is annoying, but hasn't seemed overly powerful.
Exalted Angel - Seraph of Dawn is pretty good. I actually cut Vampire Nighthawk for being just a little bit too efficient. Honestly, Exalted Angel gets to stay only because of the fun factor that Morph brings to the game.
The creature you should be playing with but probably aren't? Akki Underling. It's pretty easy to have 7 cards in your hand, and then this guy becomes one heck of a beast.
I cut Fervent Charge when I also cut Grafted Wargear. Those two cards made creatures irrelevant - you could swing with a Prodigal Sorcerer and it was always the right decision. And anything the opponent drew, if it was not at least x/4, was also irrelevant. Fervent Charge was fun to cast with that wacky mana cost, though.
I've put the Underling on a list of things to get. That reminds me about Descendant of Kiyamaro, which is also pretty good.
I don't want any cards to be flat out better than others. Situational uses can be fine though. I removed Terminate, as the BR casting cost is not prohibitive, and it was strongly overshadowing cards like Dark Banishing, Murder, Eyeblight's Ending, and Rend Flesh. I'm debating on removing Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt, and while both cards are likely stronger than Terminate, it's easier to point out situational advantages that other similar cards may have. Time will tell.
I would really like people's opinions on cards like Fireball, Ghitu Fire, etc. These cards occasionally cause games to end in a very anticlimactic manner, but at the same time I feel like their very existence sometimes prevents the late game from stagnating. If a player gets into burn range, they often take risks they might otherwise not take, or may very obviously keep mana open to signal a counterspell that they may or may not have. How the opponent reacts to these situations can provide a lot of information, and as a result the late game can feel very tense for both players. Until a Fireball for 9 actually resolves. So right now I'm keeping them in, viewing them as a sort of necessary evil. I don't particularly like it when they are played and win a game, but I do like the indirect impact to the style of play that these cards have. Any thoughts?
Additionally, has anyone tried adding a utility land to the 10 land reserve pack? It was hinted upon in Ben Stark's article but I cannot think of a land I think would be fun to put there. I considered all sorts such as Kessig Wolf Run, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, and Blinkmouth Nexus, but none seem particularly appealing. Maybe Alchemist's Refuge or perhaps a pick of/ randomly assignment of one of the 10 innistrad utility lands? Has anyone tried this variant?
I, too, have recently built a Danger Room, being inspired by the articles and then this thread. While my 451-card stack has only been played twice, it was met with stirring reviews from the 6, then 7, players who used it. I am currently looting this thread and your lists for card ideas.
We keep a shared graveyard, making the gy-based cards much more entertaining. To facilitate this, I have lots of milling and discard-for-effect cards (alongside more traditional discard spells), as well as lots of flashback, reanimation, and targeted recursion; Null Brooch and Spellbound Dragon, as well as assorted looting effects keeps everyone on their toes. It occurs to me that adding/acquiring Turbulent Dreams, Sickening Dreams, Restless Dreams, and Nostalgic Dreams (and the suggested Medicine Bag) would be a good idea.
The discussion about what determines an overpowered card in this format is interesting and one I am watching, primarily for cards to add. My logic is that if most, if not all, cards are potent, games are more entertaining, or at least faster, and with multiple opponents, some cards won't auto-win like they may in a duel.
While I briefly considered adding some utility lands for variety, in the end, permanent mana is something I don't want in my DR. Temporary boosts, though, are fair game. Given the shared graveyard, Songs of the Damned and Spoils of Evil were shoe-ins, with Mana Geyser a distant second, due to multiplayer potential. The suggestion of Rosheen Meanderer is interesting, given its Xspell restrictions; I have a small amount of land-untappers, but these are tough to use.
My current build has tried a small proliferate theme, but frankly, most of the proliferate cards are awful, so may go before they ever see play!
This is my new favorite variant of Magic.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
ALIK4'S BATTLE BOX
Now that it is all laid out, it will be easier to edit. I have also begun actively seeking out cards at the shop, rather than confining myself to just my copious amount of spare cards. Last night's culling of the Black bulk rare box left me with wanting to find homes (either more sleeves or trading cards out) for Tainted Specter, Necravolver, Liliana's Reaver, Phyrexian Delver, Sepulchral Primordial, Graveborn Muse, Reign of the Pit, and maybe Bloodgift Demon, Null Profusion, and Ophiomancer.
I'm hoping today that I can get back to the shop this afternoon and hit some other boxes, notably Green and Blue.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
1. Bring up the power level a couple notches. I'm not trying "cubify" the DR, but I do feel like it could use a shot in the arm. Hopefully I can move it away from "strong peasant" to "dollar rare."
2. Incorporate interesting cards from Theros Block, M15, and KTK. There are a lot of cool cards that are already in print that I haven't looked into yet... and KTK looks like the best thing for this format since RTR block.
3. Adjust my permanent/nonpermanent ratio. My DR is very creature/permanent heavy and the board state I've experienced in recent games has felt gummy and clogged. I want to cut back on creatures and add more fun instants/sorceries. I'm going to seriously trim my one drop creatures as part of this step.
4. Be organized, get an update list online. I've made TONS of changes since I updated my deckstats list so I'm just going to start over with a new one.
Thoughts on KTK to follow. I have to stay, the return of morph has me pumped!
My games are stil 6-8 people each, and games are getting explosive (though not always ending) at about turn 6-7; answers abound, so our board states never get to gummed up.
Determining what to cut gets more difficult with each new card, especially as I try to keep parity among colors. Still, feedback from other players keeps it humming along.
Definitely a fun format.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Typically we play 1v1 (smaaaaaall playgroug), but sometimes we can get 4 to sit down. We've found that with more than 2 players, games can drag to turn 20 or longer sometimes, due to the amount of board wipes I run. I'm hoping to streamline things a bit and tailor my more for 1v1 play.
I have never tried to balance my colors exactly, but as I undertake my DR overhaul I may try and get them close. I feel you about the difficult cuts, I love every card in my DR.
Some cards I plan on adding in the near future:
M15:
Reclamation Sage: No explanation needed. I'll be able to take out Indrik Stomphowler to make space for a more interesting 5 drop.
Quickling: Beats the crap out of Whitemane Lion, easy switch.
Phyrexian Revoker: I play tons of creatures with activated abilities.
KTK:
All 5 charms. All told I want to run one charm for each 3 color combo. The 5 KTK charms are all nutz, and I'll be able to pick the best of the Alara/Dragon charms to round it out.
Morph Creatures:
Thousand Winds: The morph cost is expensive but this guy is going to win games in interesting ways.
Grim Haruspex: Great little engine card. Also 3 power for 3 mana is my baseline for a solid attacker. This guy is the complete DR package.
Jeering Instigator: I'm not 100% sold on this, but he does seem interesting.
Master of Pearls: Could be a less janky Tribal Forcemage, but I'm leery of anthems in this format. Less than 50/50 on this one.
Icefeather Aven: Exactly what I'm looking for in a morph. Options and the ability to affect the board.
Other Creatures:
Necropolis Fiend: Delve will be great for this format.
Hooting Mandrils: Not very interesting but a 4/4 trampler is solid on the ground and this guy will usually cost G.
Avalanche Tusker: Love this effect.
Mantis Rider: Yeehaw! I run Lightning Angel but may replace it with this guy. I have a lot of 3 power fliers but not many 4 power fliers so Lightning Angel tends to rip airborne defenses to shreds, maybe even a little too much. Or I might just run both because lightning angel is a fav.
Kheru Lich Lord: If the "random" clause wasn't in his text he'd be too good. As it is I think this card will be a blast and a half.
Other cards:
Murderous Cut: Delve!
Savage Punch: Best straight fight card printed to date.
Obviously, I really like this set for DR. Looking forward to more good morph creatures!
EDIT: HOLY CRAP. Dig Through Time is amazing!
I linked to my deck a few posts up.
Your review of newer cards is good food for thought. Thanks.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Full spoiler is up! There are more interesting cards!
Brave the Sands: I like this mix of abilities for the cost. The enchantment grants solid defensive abilities that will make the combat decision insteresting and probably promote some aggressive attacks.
End Hostilities: Semi blandish Wrath variant, but it's better than some of the janky oldschool ones I'm running and can hit equipment and auras which is kinda cool I guess.
Quiet Contemplation: Adds a lot of utility to instants. Not 100% but I'll probably give it a try.
Burn Away: Expensive removal that has a few things going for it. 1) Only one colored cost requirement, 2) it will kill just about any creature in the DR, and 3) it nukes the opponents yard. Interesting package!
Goblinslide: Same type of thing as quiet contemplation. Could be used to build a passable board presence without overcomitting if you suspect the other guy is holding a sweeper. Plus the art is just great.
Armament Corps: A 5 mana 6/6 or a 5 mana 4/4 that makes your evasive threats much scarier.
Mardu Roughrider: Kind of the opposite of Avalanche Tusker. Honestly it's the art that makes me most interested in the card.
Warden of the Eye: Straight upgrade to Izzet Chronarch.
Reading your decklist, a standout was all of the defenders; I prefer vigilance, so I can swing, as well - too many solid defenders can slow things down, necessitating more sweepers.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Just like with the Dragon Cube, there's more focus on the big stuff.
While this may seem like it'd just be "PLAY ALL THE EDH BIG GUYS", that's less what I'd want.
Being the world of board wipes, EDH big guys usually have some sort of massive game shifty enter the battlefield ability, which isn't really what I want.
I want a home for the big, big vanilla guys, the 5/5's with neat abilities and the stuff that's too expensive for constructed magic but not swingy enough to get noticed in EDH- all those poor orphan cards you see in the dollar box and think "this is such a neat design. It's a pity it never got played".
As a way of balancing things, the manabase I'd look to have would be 15 lands- the kahns refuge cycle (fixes and adds more life) and one of each basic.
15 lands may seem like overkill, but a good deal of that is going to be because I'd set life totals at 100.
This may seem weird, but it rebalances things in such a way that those 5/5s are a 20 turn clock, just like a 1/1 would be in everyday normal magic.
Clearly it will make play a bit more durdly... 100 life is a LOT.
But it leads to interesting choices.
Anything that's a 1/1 or 2/2 and would get played probably would have a pretty awesome ability that makes it trade up with those massive monsters.
Landwalkers can be interestings, because lands coming in to play tapped will slow things down, and making it an interesting decision about whether you should be slower in your development and not open yourself up to another form of evasion or faster but giving a potential opening.
One of the big upsides to this, in my eyes, is that you'd not have a ton of overlap if you had another Danger Room or Battle Box that was more like the "average" one... many of the cards you'd actually use and like playing in this one would likely be pretty bad in those contexts. There's so many cards that are so interesting but with no home.
100 does seem a bit much. Perhaps try it with 40, then add increments of 10 for each game until you hit a decent number? From your written description, it implies lots of creatures and little else, making for potentially marathon games.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.