I was wondering if anyone has a list/ ideas for a blue green tempo deck. It looked like there could be a good start in Delver of Secrets and Werebear . Thanks for the help.
I think werebear is an awesome card, and I wish it could see some play. I've played a bit with a casual naya aggro deck, but like all multicoloured pauper aggro decks it suffers badly from its mana base. I can't see it really finding a good home with delver in pauper though, delver wants you to run a lot of spells which means from an aggro perspective you'd want to be running red, but then you have THREE colours which is pushing it too far with the pauper mana bases (the naya deck I played only splashed one plains for nacatl and a sideboard guildmage; with 5 fetches, it could get the plains when needed).
Anyway, good luck trying and I guess you can try to do a sort of blue control deck splashing green for the werebear as a finisher, not sure how that'd go though.
(Note that the deck linked above is "peasant" which means it can run 5 uncommons - such a weird format which tries to be budget but where force of will isn't banned!)
Something's odd with the list up there, at least for me. It says 19 Dudes while to me there are only 15 visible. And it says 21 Tricks, but there's only 17 on the list.
Also Cloud of Faeries, which bv310 commented on is NOT in the deck for me^^
Well some thoughs: First of all I'm not sure Memory Lapse is better than Prohibit. Cards like Burn ode rRemoval you don't want to have them a turn later, but rather have it hardcountered. It'S also 1U and counters about everything you fear when tempoing out. I'm not sure you wan'T to play Boomerang too, I think stuff like Vapor Snaw would help your case more?
I also don'T like a random Exclude, but that's another story
Your typing makes my inner teacher cry, but that's not important right now. I'm assuming the missing 4 creatures are supposed to be Cloud of Faeries, since he mentioned it in the other thread. If not that, then I'd suggest Coiling Oracle
You're right, I fat-fingered the list. I'll leave it alone up there for posterity's sake. Below is what I put together on MTGO. It still feels a little off.
I dropped the Piracy Charm for now. It's great in mono blue, but I don't think it fits here.
I was wrong about Cloud of Faeries. We have plenty of flyer evasion. The Delver is our flyer (and Silhana is a virtual flyer to me.)
...
I see you did not include Werebear in the list, did you feel like it was not working? Or was it never included in your list?
It's a great card, but I have a feeling it has a better home in a Wild Mongrel/Madness list. (I've toyed with BG/BUG madness, but not enough to post here.)
@aaronog
I'm looking at Mizzium Skin, Dispel right now. Not sure what else.
While Werebear looks great, I've always found he's very slow unless you're running thought scour/mental note to get him online. And if you're doing that, its tempting to run stuff like Springing Tiger as well. So either way, he turns into more of a midrange card (where you want to be fatter than your opponent in the mid/late game) than a tempo one. It's a lot of contortions to grab some slightly undercosted fatties when affinity can do the same with a fraction of the effort.
Redsai's list looks interesting, and if I ever lay my paws on snap/ gush I'll be sure to try the archetype out.
Brainstormwas the right decision for 1cmc digging. It let me "god draw" much more consistently. (T1 Delver, T2: Flip the Delver, Rancor, 5-you. T3: Control you)
Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanseare quiet all-stars in the deck. Gush was always cast for it's alternative cost. Brainstorm is even better. Even occasionally, I was able to fetch away a non-flip on one delver, for a shot at flipping the other.
Memory Lapse is the same situational goodstuff that I've come to expect. When used effectively it's Temporal Spring 5-8.
Some uncomfortable things: 5 pieces of "gear" aren't enough. I'm a tempo deck, and my singleton dudes are not strong enough alone. I will have to find room for more Bonesplitter
2cmc creatures still cost two mana. Unless I switch to playing reallybad cards, these guys either put my pants down, or come down too late. Plow Under and Unsummon effects are good only if I have a creature to beat down with.
Looter il-Kor is underwhelming when I need to apply pressure to midrange decks. A 1/1 without shroud is a magnet for 1-damage removal.
This list doesn't refill it's hand like a blue deck should. Perhaps I need to consider more Ophidian effects? Are the few cards I'm getting just not working hard enough?
Sometimes-shroud is always disappointing. As I alluded to in the 2cmc whining, I only have one threat with shroud. I don't dig deep enough to find her if I need her. If they find an answer to the one I do play, I certainly don't have backup.
What next?: Time to branch the list. It's clear to me that the list above is a good springboard. It plays in a very interesting way, but needs to narrow it's focus. I will try two takes on the list, Little and Big:
Little - Try and "fix" the uncomfortable things by going cheaper on the creatures, and finding some way to refill the hand better.
Big - Keep the concept of Boomerang and Temporal Spring, but bring more ramp and bigger spells. (In my head, this will resemble Simic Cloudpost or that weird snap/cloud list.)
Match testing Now that I've gotten my feet wet with the Game 1 testing, I have to look harder at Game 2 and Game 3. This means looking at JustSin's great metagame report and throwing together a mixmash sideboard. (Suggestions are quite welcome on the springboard list!)
Better notes I probably need to keep better notes about my testing. I could do this writeup from memory really easily. But future ones will require a better notes.
Another update post Assuming I get some input from the boards here, I'll probably post again before...
U/G Tempo is a deck idea after my own heart. In fact, when I first got in to paper pauper at my LGS, I built two decks: mono-G stompy and U/G Tempo. Now that the LGS pauper scene is gone, I have moved online, playing Mono-G stompy now (cashed my first two events 3-1, 4-0, MODO name same as Salvation name, if you want to search for the decks). I want to build U/G Tempo online, also, but I decided to wait until Gatecrash (for Simic Guildgate, and undoubtedly other goodies).
Regardless, I would LOVE to discuss some of the ideas that I had, as well as the things that you are coming up with.
First off, I conceived of the deck as closer to "Madness", nickle and dime-ing with card advantage and tempo, and less like stompy, using rancors and bonespitters on dudes.
To that end, my creature base is different: fatter, larger, and kinda tricky:
Basking Rootwalla - 4
Delver of Secrets - 4
Wild Mongrel - 4
Werebear - 3
Man O' War - 3
Ninja of the Deep Hours - 3
Now, that's a lot of dudes (23), so we're going to be a little light on instants/sorceries for the Delver (which is bad), but because we've Ninjas in droves, an unflipped Delver on turn one is still a Very Good Thing (as is Rootwalla, in fact, playing T1 Rootwalla, T2 Island attack looks VERY normal, and most would be VERY reluctant to block, as we are representing pumps . . . then comes the ninjas)
For spells, I am less inclined to go with infinite bounce, instead preferring to go Turbo-Xerox style and play lots of cantrips, including the two best ones for flipping our Delvers:
Ponder - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thought Scour - 4
Deep Analysis - 3
Memory Lapse - 4
Scours Hitting Deep Analysis is a very nice interaction, and should also fuel our Werebears. This leaves room for 18 lands, many of which should produce blue.
Honestly, I am just throwing these numbers out there, and I would definitely want to test various ways to make this deck (the Mongrel / Rootwala package could go, for instance), including the bounce-heavy version you've been testing. I do think that you might want to try bailing on the evasion guys and looters, though, and turn the deck away from a Blue version of Stompy, and closer towards something resembling the old U/G Madness deck.
Just my thoughts regarding the direction I'd take U/G.
As a bonus, here are other awesome interactions to consider:
Obsessive Search - Works great with Mongrel, Waterfront Bouncer, Careful Study, if you want to go the full madness route.
Mulldrifter - A little slow, but great with Ninja, obv.
Wormfang Drake - This guy has to come with Coiling Oracles, Man-O'-Wars, maybe even Aether Adepts and the aforementioned Mulldrifter. But if you get this guy to resolve responsibly (i.e., don't play into open removal mana), he is a HOUSE - 3/4 flier is HUGE in the format, and once they kill him you get a dude and an ETB ability back.
As far as sideboard goes, I'd recommend Naturalizes, Echoing Truths, Dispels, Blue Blasts, Hornet Stings and maybe something interesting like Stormbound Geists for the removal-heavy decks.
@radicaleucalyptus - I think the "Big" is definitely a way to go. The list you describe feels out of the realm of "Tempo" to me. For me, "U/G Tempo" decks play boomerang disruption more than just fatties.
No matter what you want to call your deck, if it has forests and wins with creatures, it should probably play Rancor.
@Zach Coiling Oracle is tough to use correctly in U/G, I'm just not sure it makes sense for the tempo lists I'm brewing. He reveals the card, which is worse than Elvish Visionary. He can't tutor, which is worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder. Worst of all, his mana cost is really painful at GU
I think he goes into a turbo-land list with Explore, Ponder/Brainstorm, and Crop Rotation. I've tinkered with him in U/G Cloudpost. (Or a blink list with some kind of Index effect on a creature?)
Anyway, good luck trying and I guess you can try to do a sort of blue control deck splashing green for the werebear as a finisher, not sure how that'd go though.
(Note that the deck linked above is "peasant" which means it can run 5 uncommons - such a weird format which tries to be budget but where force of will isn't banned!)
Here's a spitballed list I'm looking at right now. (with the intent of trying it out in TP)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Man O' War
// Gear - 5
4 Rancor
1 Bonesplitter
2 Piracy Charm
4 Snap
4 Memory Lapse
2 Boomerang
4 Temporal Spring
1 Exclude
4 Brainstorm
2 Gush
// Lands - 20
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Simic Growth Chamber
6 Forest
9 Island
The game plan is pretty clear... slap an evasive guy on the table, staple Rancor to it, and out-tempo them.
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
Your typing makes my inner teacher cry, but that's not important right now. I'm assuming the missing 4 creatures are supposed to be Cloud of Faeries, since he mentioned it in the other thread. If not that, then I'd suggest Coiling Oracle
Modern:
Bant Eldrazi
Merfolk
Abzan Company
EDH:
Mono-Green Omnath
Mono-White Odric Soup
Mono-Blue Muzzio
Mono-Red Feldon
You're right, I fat-fingered the list. I'll leave it alone up there for posterity's sake. Below is what I put together on MTGO. It still feels a little off.
I dropped the Piracy Charm for now. It's great in mono blue, but I don't think it fits here.
I was wrong about Cloud of Faeries. We have plenty of flyer evasion. The Delver is our flyer (and Silhana is a virtual flyer to me.)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Man O' War
// Gear - 5
4 Rancor
1 Bonesplitter
4 Snap
4 Memory Lapse
2 Boomerang
4 Temporal Spring
1 Exclude
// Cards - 6
4 Brainstorm
2 Gush
2 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Simic Growth Chamber
6 Forest
9 Island
(61 cards :-/)
I'll post updates as I have them, and I'll also put up the sideboard for the current TP/Q meta.
I see you did not include Werebear in the list, did you feel like it was not working? Or was it never included in your list?
Dispel
dispel and naturalize?
It's a great card, but I have a feeling it has a better home in a Wild Mongrel/Madness list. (I've toyed with BG/BUG madness, but not enough to post here.)
@aaronog
I'm looking at Mizzium Skin, Dispel right now. Not sure what else.
Redsai's list looks interesting, and if I ever lay my paws on snap/ gush I'll be sure to try the archetype out.
Some additional feelings and thoughts I had while testing in the Tournament Practice rooms.
Some good things:
Boomerang is an all-star for a tempo deck. If you're lucky enough to hit a "Karoo" land from Ravnica with it, it's just as good as Stone Rain.
Brainstorm was the right decision for 1cmc digging. It let me "god draw" much more consistently. (T1 Delver, T2: Flip the Delver, Rancor, 5-you. T3: Control you)
Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse are quiet all-stars in the deck. Gush was always cast for it's alternative cost. Brainstorm is even better. Even occasionally, I was able to fetch away a non-flip on one delver, for a shot at flipping the other.
Memory Lapse is the same situational goodstuff that I've come to expect. When used effectively it's Temporal Spring 5-8.
Some uncomfortable things:
5 pieces of "gear" aren't enough. I'm a tempo deck, and my singleton dudes are not strong enough alone. I will have to find room for more Bonesplitter
2cmc creatures still cost two mana. Unless I switch to playing really bad cards, these guys either put my pants down, or come down too late. Plow Under and Unsummon effects are good only if I have a creature to beat down with.
Looter il-Kor is underwhelming when I need to apply pressure to midrange decks. A 1/1 without shroud is a magnet for 1-damage removal.
Silhana Ledgewalker has the shroud, but her evasion is still very weak.
This list doesn't refill it's hand like a blue deck should. Perhaps I need to consider more Ophidian effects? Are the few cards I'm getting just not working hard enough?
Sometimes-shroud is always disappointing. As I alluded to in the 2cmc whining, I only have one threat with shroud. I don't dig deep enough to find her if I need her. If they find an answer to the one I do play, I certainly don't have backup.
What next?:
Time to branch the list. It's clear to me that the list above is a good springboard. It plays in a very interesting way, but needs to narrow it's focus. I will try two takes on the list, Little and Big:
Little - Try and "fix" the uncomfortable things by going cheaper on the creatures, and finding some way to refill the hand better.
Big - Keep the concept of Boomerang and Temporal Spring, but bring more ramp and bigger spells. (In my head, this will resemble Simic Cloudpost or that weird snap/cloud list.)
Match testing Now that I've gotten my feet wet with the Game 1 testing, I have to look harder at Game 2 and Game 3. This means looking at JustSin's great metagame report and throwing together a mixmash sideboard. (Suggestions are quite welcome on the springboard list!)
Better notes I probably need to keep better notes about my testing. I could do this writeup from memory really easily. But future ones will require a better notes.
Another update post Assuming I get some input from the boards here, I'll probably post again before...
Playing the daily events!
Regardless, I would LOVE to discuss some of the ideas that I had, as well as the things that you are coming up with.
First off, I conceived of the deck as closer to "Madness", nickle and dime-ing with card advantage and tempo, and less like stompy, using rancors and bonespitters on dudes.
To that end, my creature base is different: fatter, larger, and kinda tricky:
Basking Rootwalla - 4
Delver of Secrets - 4
Wild Mongrel - 4
Werebear - 3
Man O' War - 3
Ninja of the Deep Hours - 3
Now, that's a lot of dudes (23), so we're going to be a little light on instants/sorceries for the Delver (which is bad), but because we've Ninjas in droves, an unflipped Delver on turn one is still a Very Good Thing (as is Rootwalla, in fact, playing T1 Rootwalla, T2 Island attack looks VERY normal, and most would be VERY reluctant to block, as we are representing pumps . . . then comes the ninjas)
For spells, I am less inclined to go with infinite bounce, instead preferring to go Turbo-Xerox style and play lots of cantrips, including the two best ones for flipping our Delvers:
Ponder - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thought Scour - 4
Deep Analysis - 3
Memory Lapse - 4
Scours Hitting Deep Analysis is a very nice interaction, and should also fuel our Werebears. This leaves room for 18 lands, many of which should produce blue.
Honestly, I am just throwing these numbers out there, and I would definitely want to test various ways to make this deck (the Mongrel / Rootwala package could go, for instance), including the bounce-heavy version you've been testing. I do think that you might want to try bailing on the evasion guys and looters, though, and turn the deck away from a Blue version of Stompy, and closer towards something resembling the old U/G Madness deck.
Just my thoughts regarding the direction I'd take U/G.
As a bonus, here are other awesome interactions to consider:
Obsessive Search - Works great with Mongrel, Waterfront Bouncer, Careful Study, if you want to go the full madness route.
Mulldrifter - A little slow, but great with Ninja, obv.
Wormfang Drake - This guy has to come with Coiling Oracles, Man-O'-Wars, maybe even Aether Adepts and the aforementioned Mulldrifter. But if you get this guy to resolve responsibly (i.e., don't play into open removal mana), he is a HOUSE - 3/4 flier is HUGE in the format, and once they kill him you get a dude and an ETB ability back.
As far as sideboard goes, I'd recommend Naturalizes, Echoing Truths, Dispels, Blue Blasts, Hornet Stings and maybe something interesting like Stormbound Geists for the removal-heavy decks.
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No matter what you want to call your deck, if it has forests and wins with creatures, it should probably play Rancor.
Coiling Oracle is tough to use correctly in U/G, I'm just not sure it makes sense for the tempo lists I'm brewing. He reveals the card, which is worse than Elvish Visionary. He can't tutor, which is worse than Sakura-Tribe Elder. Worst of all, his mana cost is really painful at GU
I think he goes into a turbo-land list with Explore, Ponder/Brainstorm, and Crop Rotation. I've tinkered with him in U/G Cloudpost. (Or a blink list with some kind of Index effect on a creature?)