Sooo yeah I finally put this together on mtgo. It hasn't been tested much really. I played against burn and elves only as of writing this, and those matchups seem nearly impossible to lose. Gnaw and evincars made me feel like I was being rude they were so unfair. Is there lifegain hate from burn at common level? Specifically good enough against gnaw? I might've still lost if half had been nullified, hard to say. Hmm.
Just what I initially tossed together. Cyclers themselves were pretty much 'hmm some of these and a few of those, yeah seems good' outside of the obvious includes. Wild dogs can hold off early if need be, especially if you can gnaw on upkeep if they don't trade him off. Typically cycling is better than hardcasting things. Rarely will a random dude kill someone I suspect. The primary gameplan is to cycle, cycle, cycle some more, gnaw to the bone or evincar's justice, cycle cyclecycleyclylclycle songs of the damned songs of the damned drain life you. You often get a fair deal of lands out, so multiples of drain life can just be shot at their face to make it a bit easier. If they gain a lot of life you might need to cast a couple guys at some point. Or just stall longer. Lands are just mashed together, but they seem fine so far. Might be tweaked. I could also see just putting justice in main, but I'll wait to make that decision til I play some more.
Like I said I haven't played it a ton, but it worked as advertised in those matches. Maybe a little more bad feeling because those matchups weren't fair. Cycling so many times means you're going to draw into your real cards, and hopefully those are good enough to hold you over. I'm using justice obviously, but crypt rats would be good also. One rats cost more than like my entire deck (well than it cost me, i got a few street wraiths and some other crap for free). It counts as a creature and can nuke for a lot which can be a secondary finisher with gnaws, but justice is fine. Can't be killed or bounced and comes out early enough. Can be boughtback. *shrug*
I dunno how it performs against delver or mbc. I've just been playing in the for fun room (haven't seen pauper games elsewhere really, and even there there's only like one at a time.. hopefully people come play). Sometime I'll get matched up against them though and find out. Delver seems like it might be hard. Mbc might nuke your hand too far, though a lot of the time you have spare lands you can bear to lose. Any good sideboard cards for delver/mbc? My board is just random stuff I had at the moment (so basically starter kit stuff). Maybe a couple grave scrabblers? Delver might just counter anything that matters. You can gnaw if they tap out but that's not really their plan ever, and while damns are instants, drains aren't.
It's kinda slow, but you're always doing something. That something being cycling. I maybe should've played my guys more often as guys, but I feel like drawing is better if you aren't under too much pressure. More playtesting should tell. Disciples obviously have applications against white decks. Wraiths can get in against swamps. It's grindy, but ideally you can bypass nightmarish board stall combat. Cuz combat is pretty simple. They attack, you take damage. Removal cards are basically mulligans against the deck, which is nice.
Rats are crazy good, of course, though naturally if you don't feel like shelling out for them, that's a thing. If you have rats, Pit Keeper is great. Moment's Peace can be great for buying time versus aggro and letting you wait on the gnaw until it gets you a ridiculous amount of life.
Death Denied is one I'm not sure of. Against non-counterspell control matchups (MBC, basically) it's pretty much a slow Braingeyser; against other matchups it's too slow. My current build also has Hana Kami but I'm pretty sure that's a bridge too far.
Playing a similar list, I find a playset of deadshot minotaur in the main to be both a) a more efficient cycler than other 2 mana cyclers and b) a good plan b against blue decks. Often times they let me shoot down a delver and start swinging, or they bait a counterspell and I can go off with songs. Just food for thought.
Also consume spirit is a strictly better version of drain life.
Oh, didn't realize it had that no more than creature's toughness thing. Meh. I'll prolly just keep it for a little bit... Once it costs me a game I'll go spend the 8 cents, lol. I was mostly just mildly concerned about green manas, but that hasn't been an issue yet, so I could definitely see making that swap sometime. I do like getting them to counter deadshot with that spare mana for songs. Wasn't aware other people played this deck. I'd been considering it for a while and saw someone else doing gnaw cantrips (your name looks familiar, but maybe that's just my imagination..) but didn't see the songs at any point. He did mention x spells so maybe he was just unlucky. He was playing pit keepers too, so maybe it was you. Or maybe this deck is just played more than I expected it to be ( which was not at all). I was playing sporemound/gladehart landfall, you'd probably remember it (it resembled a planeswalker deck with the random sideboard I was playing, heh).
Death denied might help against monoblack so they can't finish off your hand later on (eating the good ones), but typically you just draw into more cyclers and you want them in the bin. Most matchups you keep churning for a while without needing an infusion. Might toss one in the side just cuz. Not like I don't have room to test things.
very nice deck, very similar to what i'm being testing, except i did not know about Songs of the Damned so i relied on Undergrowth Scavenger as a win condition, wich is of course ridicously bad against removal. Still i think you might consider the scavenger since it's a much easier combo to assemble and doesnt get 2v1 by counterspells, i currently still run 1 mainboard and 1 sideboard.
So, after testing with your list i came up with some ideas:
-Manabase: play only 18 lands, but throw in there some landcycler in order to hit the landrops. The number, while it seems low, works since it works for my modern living end which play mostly the same cards. Even better than land cyclers are the Sakura-Tribe Elder which also allow you to ramp faster into Evincar's Justice or in its buyback or even a bigger Consume Spirit. Also ramping out an hard casted cycler sometimes is a strong play. Moreover STE can chumpblock for a turn while still getting you a land, which is the main reason to prefere it to a landcycler.
My list currently runs 4 STE 2 Valley Rannet (mostly to get green) and 3 Krosan Tusker and no cycling land at all, since i feel that doesn't work well with what im trying to do.
-Sideboard: Duress has been key for me to beat counterspells, also to have more interaction agaisnt decks running artifacts i took another page from the living end book with 4 Ingot chewer (i splash 1 mountain, easy to get with my 9 landfetch creatures). Searching something similar to interact with creatures (Shriekmaw is uncommon, sigh) i am testing 4 Ambush Viper to board in against non-flying creatures decks, it is very good against Hexproof/aura for example.
Finally, i'd avoid small creatures as cyclers, so that the creatures when hard casted have a good impact on the board. We also need a way to beat grave hate and casting Jungle Weaver often does the trick.
The deck can be very good against aggro, particularly the kind of aggro that relies on hitting you with creatures - being able to hit the reset button with Crypt Rats, gain ten billion life with gnaw, etc just ruins them and Moment's Peace makes it even worse. Decks with counterspells are a big problem, though - they can often keep you off your answers and stop your songs and then you just fold up. Sometimes the hard-cast fatties can run them out of counters, but it's tough to get the game to that point.
BTW, I think playing less than 4 crypt rats for any reason but budget is just wrong in this deck.
I totally agree on Death Denied. I at the moment only play one main board because you don't want too many dead draws against fast decks, but against grindy matchups it just wins games so i like to go up to at least 2 post board.
I also agree on the 4 Crypt rats, i even cut the Consume Spirit completely from the deck because it felt pretty clunky and the hardcast plan gets us there most of the times. Moreover you still have the surprise kill with Songs of the damned with the rats after resolving a good Gnaw to the Bone.
Who needs the combo anyway? Against aggro after you have stabilized dropping a Jungle Weaver is pretty much a win, against control/midrange you can outgrind everyone (expecially if you go for the low land count+landfetchers, late game you rarely draw blank). I had a game against Teachings in which my opponent litterally went out of removal spells in his entire deck while i was keep drawing cretures.
Also unlike the rats Consume Spirit is a pretty bad card by itself.
I sleeved this up and played it at a local small tournament the other night. Still not very experienced with the deck, but I can say it's quite fun to pilot. I have some comments on individual card choices:
Crypt Rats: This is fantastic. Better than Evincar's Justice by a good margin, since it adds a creature to the yard.
Drain Life/Consume Spirit: This card might be completely unneeded, and definitely should not be played as a 4-of. In order to get the combo kill, you will need multiple Songs of the Damned, but you'll only need one finisher. You can still get the kill by using Gnaw to get to an absurd life total, then blowing up your Rats for a million. I'm cutting this card down to two, and then maybe down to zero.
Sakura Tribe Elder: Not good enough; I feel the ramp isn't very relevant. I'd rather play more Jungle Weaver or some other random cycling card-- instead of the land, I can hopefully keep my chain of cycling creatures going deeper into my deck. Plus, Weaver is a higher impact card to cast later in the game.
Death Denied: So, so good. It feels like a black Sphinx's Revelation (although it often causes us to lose a bunch of life instead of gaining it, since we immediately follow it by cycling some Street Wraiths). I'm playing 2, which feels like the right number. Bad in multiples, but so powerful.
Undergrowth Scavenger: Seems gratuitous. Compared to Weaver, the Scavenger costs less mana and can become much larger, but I'm pretty sure those upsides are pretty irrelevant. Weaver is already a stone wall against every creature in the format except Ulamog's Crusher. While the Scavenger can kill Crusher (sometimes), it loses reach and can't be cycled. The lower mana cost doesn't matter much, since you want to wait to cast it until late anyway.
Manamorphose: Not sure if this card is too clunky, but I wanted to mention it. It's a pet card of mine, and would increase the consistency of our draws. It can also randomly allow us to cast Architects of Will or blacken our mana for Crypt Rats/Drain Life. Currently running 4, but thinking about cutting it.
Swirling Sandstorm: Again, I can't say if this card is good enough or not. At least it's a budget option to replace Crypt Rats?
Sideboard
Ingot Chewer: There exists a much stronger card, Ancient Grudge. Living End plays the Chewer instead of Ancient Grudge because they simply can't play any spell that costs less than three mana, or they'll ruin their Cascades. While we have the option to hardcast Chewer, it seems like it's never going to be worth it, since the poor guy will just get squished by one of their many 4/4s.
Raven's Crime: This card, especially in combination with Krosan Tusker, can allow us to shred our opponent's hand in the late game. After cycling many cards, we'll get stuck with a bunch of lands in hand anyway. Definitely worth playing, at least as a one-of.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing...
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
I think Sakura-Tribe Elder is very strong. Notice that playing this over Jungle Weaver allows you to cut some lands from your deck which compensate the number of bad draws late game. For example i run 18 lands.
It also allows easier splashes: i am even testing running 1 island for Mulldrifter with full playset of STE and Krosan Tusker to fecth it. But even if you stick with the Jund manabase you still don't want to run too many mountains and STE helps with that. An argument can be made for running landcyclers over it like Valley Rannet if you want less dead draws lategame, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still has the upside of being able to chump block. The ramp comes pretty much for free.
About Ingot Chewer vs Ancient Grudge; i agreeAncient Grudge is a better card but Ingot Chewer has better synergy with all our yard stuff (gnaw, song and also death denied). Anyway, if it was only for the affinity matchup i'd run Grundge for sure, but Ingot is much better for everything else, you can casually board it in against decks that you think could have a relic, with very little downsides because it is still a 3/3 that progresses your gameplan if needed.
I think Sakura-Tribe Elder is very strong. Notice that playing this over Jungle Weaver allows you to cut some lands from your deck which compensate the number of bad draws late game. For example i run 18 lands.
It also allows easier splashes: i am even testing running 1 island for Mulldrifter with full playset of STE and Krosan Tusker to fecth it. But even if you stick with the Jund manabase you still don't want to run too many mountains and STE helps with that. An argument can be made for running landcyclers over it like Valley Rannet if you want less dead draws lategame, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still has the upside of being able to chump block. The ramp comes pretty much for free.
I've been running this, and experiencing no real manascrew:
The idea was to only ever have one nonblack mana to maximize my Drain Lifes and Crypt Rats, though that seems less relevant now.
The Mountain helps cast SB cards, but I've found it unneeded in the main-- all it does is hardcast Minotaur and Carabid. I usually only want to do that late, so I can just wait to draw a Rakdos Guildgate.
I had considered playing Read the Bones for additional card draw. How's the Mulldrifter splash working out?
One fun card to play off of a blue splash is Chronic Flooding which cast on your own land puts your deck into overdrive (at the cost of milling some of your business spells). Another blue thing I've seen in decklists but not tried is Mystical Teachings - with a big enough yard you can teachings/songs/flashback teachings/songs again with profitable mana usage. It also can grab a gnaw when it's needed or Death Denied if you're running that card.
Any thought to using Stinkweed Imp or Shambling Shell in combination with the cycling to fill your graveyard faster? If you ran enough creatures, in addition to songs of the damned + unearth or songs of the damned + syphon life, you could run Haunting Misery as a finisher.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Come watch me stream over at my twitch channel. I play Loam Pox, Ad Nauseam, and jank in modern on MTGO.
Any thought to using Stinkweed Imp or Shambling Shell in combination with the cycling to fill your graveyard faster? If you ran enough creatures, in addition to songs of the damned + unearth or songs of the damned + syphon life, you could run Haunting Misery as a finisher.
Maybe? All three of those cards seem like answers to a nonexistent problem. Imp is undoubtedly a strong card, and could be played in the place of removal spells-- though the fact that it can't kill a creature enchanted with Ethereal Armor limits it. Shell is just way worse than the imp-- less relevant body, worthless ability, and less dredge.
Misery can't be a good card in this deck, I think. It's effectively Songs + Drain Life in a single card, with the downside that it can only target players. Also, the fact that it exiles is a gigantic nonbo with the rest of the deck.
The deck is strong because of the explosive lifegain and the fact that we can afford to play so many big creatures. Winning is often just a formality; I'm pretty sure every game I won by combo I could have won just as easily by playing a 4/4 and beating down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing...
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
Fair enough, I was just trying to speed-fill the graveyard with creatures, but after testing out my idea it failed pretty hard. All of the win conditions of the deck don't have an easy way to be recursed out of the graveyard. Dredge does fill the 'yard fast and songs of the damned does become extremely powerful quickly, but when you mill songs by dredging it isn't good.
On the other hand, I traded out a lot of the creatures that cycle in favor of the cheap unearth zombies like dregscape zombie, viscera dragger, rotting rats and the like, and I did get a kill by casting songs of the damned and unearthing an enormous army. But that was magical christmas-land scenario.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Come watch me stream over at my twitch channel. I play Loam Pox, Ad Nauseam, and jank in modern on MTGO.
As Hungerstriker said, my list included both an island and a mountain.
Still not sure how good Mulldrifter is, obviously it is an insanely good card but i am not sure if it is necessary in this deck. So the idea behind the splash was to make the deck into a midrange deck, and the card is increduble in grindy matchup (immagine a Death Denied wich gets a couple of Mulldrifter and some other creatures).
The 4 color manabase works fine most of the times, but some opponents boarded in land destruction which of course takes good care of the only Island, so Mulldrifter is normally the card that comes post board against decks that can have LD in the board.
Either way, if you are running a list focused heavily on the combo i'd avoid the card since i'd just stick with cyclers that are usually cheaper and fill the grave faster.
Hey guys, I've been playing Pauper lately and this is one of the decks that I'm really interested in trying. Is anyone still playing this deck? And how does it fare against the current delver decks and stuff like that?
My build is great against mono black, so-so against delver, pretty good against most aggro, and terrible against the blue/black teachings deck that main decks crypt incursion. I honestly don't know what you can do against that - you can theoretically songs/death denied in response, but that deck runs so many counterspells that I can't see it happening.
Ahh I see, thanks for the information :). The main deck I currently play is actually that blue/black Teachings deck Lol. Once I have the tickets I may just throw your version together and see how it goes. It seems like I should probably invest in some Hydroblast and Pyroblast too, since they seem to be in every sideboard ever.
As a Teachings player I'll try to think up some strategies for how to stop Crypt Incursion from ruining things. I'll give you a shout if I come up with a good way.
I looked around the forums to find out more about that deck (not a mtgo player here). Not sure what the most common lists are, or how many of them play Crypt Incursion in the 75. You could try boarding in some Duress or hard-to-deal-with creatures like Maul Splicer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing...
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
I've also been doing some research and I think Hungerstriker is correct. Siding in Maul Splicer and Duress looks like the best option. Maul Splicer is good against all of our removal except Crypt Rats and Duress hits all but 4 of our non-land cards. The earliest that Teachings can tutor up and cast Crypt Incursion is turn 5, so take the counters and try to combo by then (If the deck can combo that early... I don't know how fast it is). If they draw it naturally your Duress can just take the Crypt Incursion instead.
My apologies for the double post, but I have renewed interest in testing this deck. I was wondering if anyone who still plays this deck could post me an updated sample list? I'm looking for a good place to start for the current meta, but I'm not sure what's good any more. From what I understand this is where I should start:
Where essentially Crypt Rats / Gnaw / Songs is ultimately the win condition. I know that I need more cycling creatures and stuff like that, but what are some other good card choices for the meta? I'm just not experienced enough with this list. Any help with main deck / sideboard cards would be awesome. Thanks guys <3
The obvious parallel is to Living End in Modern. Maybe can call this Deathcycle? Unlike Living End, though, this is Pauper, so attacking with cycling creatures is not an embarrassing plan B at all. To that end, the SB includes Mountains, so I can put this Plan B into effect.
Game 1 is like asking the opponent: "do you have Bojuka Bog?" If they don't have grave hate, then the path is much easier. Game 2 is when they usually have a Bog, Relic or other nonsense, in which case the answer is either Gilded Light (which unfortunately doesn't deal with Relic of Progenitus, but deals with everything else) or actually casting the cycling creatures. Even with 20-22 lands, with all the cycling this deck can get to 7 land for Jungle Weaver fairly reliably.
So far it's been ok if I manage to find Gnaw to the Bone (since most Pauper strategies rely on creature damage). I do have trouble against MBC, which is not too good because Treasure Cruise just got banned. I haven't met infect yet, which could be problematic as Gnaw to the Bone won't work. Maybe Dawn Charm should replace Gilded Light as it helps provide early Fogs till I find my Evincar's Justice/creatures?
SB is also up for discussion. I'm not sold on Death Denied, although it could help against grave hate, and the Raven's Crimes are a holdover from when I still played 23 lands maindeck. There is a lot of cycling but no actual draw, so I don't think going the discard route works too well since our topdecks aren't too good.
Thoughts?
Edit: I moved my Mountains mainboard to replace the 2 Plains, cos I realised I have nothing mainboard that needs white mana lol.
Are you avoiding Crypt Rats for budgetary reasons? They are the best card in the deck, IMO, if you can use them; much better than consume. Moment's Peace is another relatively high-budget card that can make the matchup with aggro decks (particularly ones with no burn) basically unloseable.
Yeah, I don't feel like spending the cash on Crypt Rats, though I agree it beats Consume Spirit by costing 1B less and also leaving a creature in the graveyard. Then again, after more games, I feel like the main wincon is more midrange-aggro rather than the Consume Spirit/Crypt Rats pathway, which is more of a Plan B/reach unless I get 2 Songs of the Damned. Since there are only 22 cycling creatures in the deck, to get a lethal Crypt/Consume, I practically need my entire deck in the yard (or, use 2 Songs). Even if I were to change all the basic lands to their CIPT dual B/x equivalent (which I disagree with cos too slow, I still need about 2/3 of my cyclers in the yard at around 5-6 mana. Speaking of CIPT duals, it doesn't help that most people use the Tranquil Cove series, which gain life and make the combo slightly harder. In fact, I usually find myself siding out some or even all of the Consumes in g2 for Duress/Gilded Light.
I think the best card is actually Songs - the mana ramp is really useful. Otherwise, this is just a weird MBC deck... A pity there's no way to recur it (outside Elvish Cache?)
Maybe Moment's Peace out of SB against Infect? Or anything better? Sometimes I die if I can't find Gnaw to the Bone fast enough, and lifegain is useless against infect.
Edit: Kami of False Hope maybe could replace Moment's Peace, as it leaves a creature in the graveyard after use.
I guess I don't see infect often enough to worry about it; not really much you can do aside from loading up on black removal or (with your white splash) COP: Green in the board. (and COP: Green misses the artifact dude). When I play the deck, I use the rats as board clear (sometimes powered by an early songs, sometimes just by themselves) to clear the way for the cycling fatties more often than I use them for the combo.
I've also got a version of the deck that runs Mnemonic Walls to recycle the songs - that one's a lot more all-in on the combo because it can't cast most of its cyclers, with red being cut in favor of blue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
4 Street Wraith
2 Krosan Tusker
4 Architects of Will
2 Barkhide Mauler
4 Disciple of Malice
4 Monstrous Carabid
1 Viscera Dragger
2 Wild Dogs
Cyclers: Lands
3 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Evincar's Justice
Win:
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Drain Life
Other Lands:
4 Golgari Guildgate
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
10 Swamp
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Viscera Dragger
2 Krosan Tusker
2 Doom Blade
3 Naturalize
Just what I initially tossed together. Cyclers themselves were pretty much 'hmm some of these and a few of those, yeah seems good' outside of the obvious includes. Wild dogs can hold off early if need be, especially if you can gnaw on upkeep if they don't trade him off. Typically cycling is better than hardcasting things. Rarely will a random dude kill someone I suspect. The primary gameplan is to cycle, cycle, cycle some more, gnaw to the bone or evincar's justice, cycle cyclecycleyclylclycle songs of the damned songs of the damned drain life you. You often get a fair deal of lands out, so multiples of drain life can just be shot at their face to make it a bit easier. If they gain a lot of life you might need to cast a couple guys at some point. Or just stall longer. Lands are just mashed together, but they seem fine so far. Might be tweaked. I could also see just putting justice in main, but I'll wait to make that decision til I play some more.
Like I said I haven't played it a ton, but it worked as advertised in those matches. Maybe a little more bad feeling because those matchups weren't fair. Cycling so many times means you're going to draw into your real cards, and hopefully those are good enough to hold you over. I'm using justice obviously, but crypt rats would be good also. One rats cost more than like my entire deck (well than it cost me, i got a few street wraiths and some other crap for free). It counts as a creature and can nuke for a lot which can be a secondary finisher with gnaws, but justice is fine. Can't be killed or bounced and comes out early enough. Can be boughtback. *shrug*
I dunno how it performs against delver or mbc. I've just been playing in the for fun room (haven't seen pauper games elsewhere really, and even there there's only like one at a time.. hopefully people come play). Sometime I'll get matched up against them though and find out. Delver seems like it might be hard. Mbc might nuke your hand too far, though a lot of the time you have spare lands you can bear to lose. Any good sideboard cards for delver/mbc? My board is just random stuff I had at the moment (so basically starter kit stuff). Maybe a couple grave scrabblers? Delver might just counter anything that matters. You can gnaw if they tap out but that's not really their plan ever, and while damns are instants, drains aren't.
It's kinda slow, but you're always doing something. That something being cycling. I maybe should've played my guys more often as guys, but I feel like drawing is better if you aren't under too much pressure. More playtesting should tell. Disciples obviously have applications against white decks. Wraiths can get in against swamps. It's grindy, but ideally you can bypass nightmarish board stall combat. Cuz combat is pretty simple. They attack, you take damage. Removal cards are basically mulligans against the deck, which is nice.
Death Denied is one I'm not sure of. Against non-counterspell control matchups (MBC, basically) it's pretty much a slow Braingeyser; against other matchups it's too slow. My current build also has Hana Kami but I'm pretty sure that's a bridge too far.
Also consume spirit is a strictly better version of drain life.
Death denied might help against monoblack so they can't finish off your hand later on (eating the good ones), but typically you just draw into more cyclers and you want them in the bin. Most matchups you keep churning for a while without needing an infusion. Might toss one in the side just cuz. Not like I don't have room to test things.
So, after testing with your list i came up with some ideas:
-Manabase: play only 18 lands, but throw in there some landcycler in order to hit the landrops. The number, while it seems low, works since it works for my modern living end which play mostly the same cards. Even better than land cyclers are the Sakura-Tribe Elder which also allow you to ramp faster into Evincar's Justice or in its buyback or even a bigger Consume Spirit. Also ramping out an hard casted cycler sometimes is a strong play. Moreover STE can chumpblock for a turn while still getting you a land, which is the main reason to prefere it to a landcycler.
My list currently runs 4 STE 2 Valley Rannet (mostly to get green) and 3 Krosan Tusker and no cycling land at all, since i feel that doesn't work well with what im trying to do.
-Sideboard: Duress has been key for me to beat counterspells, also to have more interaction agaisnt decks running artifacts i took another page from the living end book with 4 Ingot chewer (i splash 1 mountain, easy to get with my 9 landfetch creatures). Searching something similar to interact with creatures (Shriekmaw is uncommon, sigh) i am testing 4 Ambush Viper to board in against non-flying creatures decks, it is very good against Hexproof/aura for example.
Finally, i'd avoid small creatures as cyclers, so that the creatures when hard casted have a good impact on the board. We also need a way to beat grave hate and casting Jungle Weaver often does the trick.
My current list:
4 Street Wraith
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
3 Architects of Will
2 Jungle Weaver
Mana Dudes:
2 Valley Rannet
3 Krosan Tusker
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Control:
3 Evincar's Justice
4 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Crypt Rats
1 Undergrowth Scavenger
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Consume spirit
Lands
4 Golgari Guildgate
7 Forest
6 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Undergrowth Scavenger
1 Evincar's Justice
1 Crypt Rats
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Ambush Viper
4 Duress
BTW, I think playing less than 4 crypt rats for any reason but budget is just wrong in this deck.
I also agree on the 4 Crypt rats, i even cut the Consume Spirit completely from the deck because it felt pretty clunky and the hardcast plan gets us there most of the times. Moreover you still have the surprise kill with Songs of the damned with the rats after resolving a good Gnaw to the Bone.
Who needs the combo anyway? Against aggro after you have stabilized dropping a Jungle Weaver is pretty much a win, against control/midrange you can outgrind everyone (expecially if you go for the low land count+landfetchers, late game you rarely draw blank). I had a game against Teachings in which my opponent litterally went out of removal spells in his entire deck while i was keep drawing cretures.
Also unlike the rats Consume Spirit is a pretty bad card by itself.
Crypt Rats: This is fantastic. Better than Evincar's Justice by a good margin, since it adds a creature to the yard.
Drain Life/Consume Spirit: This card might be completely unneeded, and definitely should not be played as a 4-of. In order to get the combo kill, you will need multiple Songs of the Damned, but you'll only need one finisher. You can still get the kill by using Gnaw to get to an absurd life total, then blowing up your Rats for a million. I'm cutting this card down to two, and then maybe down to zero.
Sakura Tribe Elder: Not good enough; I feel the ramp isn't very relevant. I'd rather play more Jungle Weaver or some other random cycling card-- instead of the land, I can hopefully keep my chain of cycling creatures going deeper into my deck. Plus, Weaver is a higher impact card to cast later in the game.
Death Denied: So, so good. It feels like a black Sphinx's Revelation (although it often causes us to lose a bunch of life instead of gaining it, since we immediately follow it by cycling some Street Wraiths). I'm playing 2, which feels like the right number. Bad in multiples, but so powerful.
Undergrowth Scavenger: Seems gratuitous. Compared to Weaver, the Scavenger costs less mana and can become much larger, but I'm pretty sure those upsides are pretty irrelevant. Weaver is already a stone wall against every creature in the format except Ulamog's Crusher. While the Scavenger can kill Crusher (sometimes), it loses reach and can't be cycled. The lower mana cost doesn't matter much, since you want to wait to cast it until late anyway.
Manamorphose: Not sure if this card is too clunky, but I wanted to mention it. It's a pet card of mine, and would increase the consistency of our draws. It can also randomly allow us to cast Architects of Will or blacken our mana for Crypt Rats/Drain Life. Currently running 4, but thinking about cutting it.
Swirling Sandstorm: Again, I can't say if this card is good enough or not. At least it's a budget option to replace Crypt Rats?
Sideboard
Ingot Chewer: There exists a much stronger card, Ancient Grudge. Living End plays the Chewer instead of Ancient Grudge because they simply can't play any spell that costs less than three mana, or they'll ruin their Cascades. While we have the option to hardcast Chewer, it seems like it's never going to be worth it, since the poor guy will just get squished by one of their many 4/4s.
Raven's Crime: This card, especially in combination with Krosan Tusker, can allow us to shred our opponent's hand in the late game. After cycling many cards, we'll get stuck with a bunch of lands in hand anyway. Definitely worth playing, at least as a one-of.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
I think Sakura-Tribe Elder is very strong. Notice that playing this over Jungle Weaver allows you to cut some lands from your deck which compensate the number of bad draws late game. For example i run 18 lands.
It also allows easier splashes: i am even testing running 1 island for Mulldrifter with full playset of STE and Krosan Tusker to fecth it. But even if you stick with the Jund manabase you still don't want to run too many mountains and STE helps with that. An argument can be made for running landcyclers over it like Valley Rannet if you want less dead draws lategame, but Sakura-Tribe Elder still has the upside of being able to chump block. The ramp comes pretty much for free.
About Ingot Chewer vs Ancient Grudge; i agreeAncient Grudge is a better card but Ingot Chewer has better synergy with all our yard stuff (gnaw, song and also death denied). Anyway, if it was only for the affinity matchup i'd run Grundge for sure, but Ingot is much better for everything else, you can casually board it in against decks that you think could have a relic, with very little downsides because it is still a 3/3 that progresses your gameplan if needed.
I've been running this, and experiencing no real manascrew:
4 Golgari Guildgate
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
1 Mountain
The idea was to only ever have one nonblack mana to maximize my Drain Lifes and Crypt Rats, though that seems less relevant now.
The Mountain helps cast SB cards, but I've found it unneeded in the main-- all it does is hardcast Minotaur and Carabid. I usually only want to do that late, so I can just wait to draw a Rakdos Guildgate.
I had considered playing Read the Bones for additional card draw. How's the Mulldrifter splash working out?
I think he's saying he plays both.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
Maybe? All three of those cards seem like answers to a nonexistent problem. Imp is undoubtedly a strong card, and could be played in the place of removal spells-- though the fact that it can't kill a creature enchanted with Ethereal Armor limits it. Shell is just way worse than the imp-- less relevant body, worthless ability, and less dredge.
Misery can't be a good card in this deck, I think. It's effectively Songs + Drain Life in a single card, with the downside that it can only target players. Also, the fact that it exiles is a gigantic nonbo with the rest of the deck.
The deck is strong because of the explosive lifegain and the fact that we can afford to play so many big creatures. Winning is often just a formality; I'm pretty sure every game I won by combo I could have won just as easily by playing a 4/4 and beating down.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
On the other hand, I traded out a lot of the creatures that cycle in favor of the cheap unearth zombies like dregscape zombie, viscera dragger, rotting rats and the like, and I did get a kill by casting songs of the damned and unearthing an enormous army. But that was magical christmas-land scenario.
As Hungerstriker said, my list included both an island and a mountain.
Still not sure how good Mulldrifter is, obviously it is an insanely good card but i am not sure if it is necessary in this deck. So the idea behind the splash was to make the deck into a midrange deck, and the card is increduble in grindy matchup (immagine a Death Denied wich gets a couple of Mulldrifter and some other creatures).
The 4 color manabase works fine most of the times, but some opponents boarded in land destruction which of course takes good care of the only Island, so Mulldrifter is normally the card that comes post board against decks that can have LD in the board.
Either way, if you are running a list focused heavily on the combo i'd avoid the card since i'd just stick with cyclers that are usually cheaper and fill the grave faster.
As a Teachings player I'll try to think up some strategies for how to stop Crypt Incursion from ruining things. I'll give you a shout if I come up with a good way.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
So, basically, do what Hungerstriker said.
4x Crypt Rats
4x Gnaw to the Bone
4x Songs of the Damned
4x Monstrous Carabid
4x Street Wraith
4x Architects of Will
20-23x Land (this part I can probably figure out)
Where essentially Crypt Rats / Gnaw / Songs is ultimately the win condition. I know that I need more cycling creatures and stuff like that, but what are some other good card choices for the meta? I'm just not experienced enough with this list. Any help with main deck / sideboard cards would be awesome. Thanks guys <3
4 Barkhide Mauler
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Jungle Weaver
4 Monstrous Carabid
4 Street Wraith
2 Viscera Dragger
Combo (8)
4 Songs of the Damned
4 Consume Spirit
2 Death Denied
4 Evincar's Justice
4 Gnaw to the Bone
Lands (20)
4 Barren Moor
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Raven's Crime
4 Duress
4 Gilded Light
1 Pale Recluse
1 Death Denied
2 Plains
The obvious parallel is to Living End in Modern. Maybe can call this Deathcycle? Unlike Living End, though, this is Pauper, so attacking with cycling creatures is not an embarrassing plan B at all. To that end, the SB includes Mountains, so I can put this Plan B into effect.
Game 1 is like asking the opponent: "do you have Bojuka Bog?" If they don't have grave hate, then the path is much easier. Game 2 is when they usually have a Bog, Relic or other nonsense, in which case the answer is either Gilded Light (which unfortunately doesn't deal with Relic of Progenitus, but deals with everything else) or actually casting the cycling creatures. Even with 20-22 lands, with all the cycling this deck can get to 7 land for Jungle Weaver fairly reliably.
So far it's been ok if I manage to find Gnaw to the Bone (since most Pauper strategies rely on creature damage). I do have trouble against MBC, which is not too good because Treasure Cruise just got banned. I haven't met infect yet, which could be problematic as Gnaw to the Bone won't work. Maybe Dawn Charm should replace Gilded Light as it helps provide early Fogs till I find my Evincar's Justice/creatures?
SB is also up for discussion. I'm not sold on Death Denied, although it could help against grave hate, and the Raven's Crimes are a holdover from when I still played 23 lands maindeck. There is a lot of cycling but no actual draw, so I don't think going the discard route works too well since our topdecks aren't too good.
Thoughts?
Edit: I moved my Mountains mainboard to replace the 2 Plains, cos I realised I have nothing mainboard that needs white mana lol.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
I think the best card is actually Songs - the mana ramp is really useful. Otherwise, this is just a weird MBC deck... A pity there's no way to recur it (outside Elvish Cache?)
Maybe Moment's Peace out of SB against Infect? Or anything better? Sometimes I die if I can't find Gnaw to the Bone fast enough, and lifegain is useless against infect.
Edit: Kami of False Hope maybe could replace Moment's Peace, as it leaves a creature in the graveyard after use.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
I've also got a version of the deck that runs Mnemonic Walls to recycle the songs - that one's a lot more all-in on the combo because it can't cast most of its cyclers, with red being cut in favor of blue.