Since I think the shell is pretty much found by now as evidenced by several 5-0 with almost identical lists, my main concern now is working the manabase to support RUG without losing Tempo, so for starters it has to have the same number of ETB tapped lands in order to operate at the same speed. The tricky part now is to find the right number of R sources while still leaving enough Islands to be able to cast Gush / Daze, and keep Forests to a bare minimum since the only Green cards would be Nimble Mongoose and Werebear.
While adding reach and some removal worth its name, playing three colors will probably slow down the deck quite a lot, along with losing games for color screw.
In other formats it works because of fetchlands and duals, in Pauper it's really hard to make a 3 color deck work, barring weird shaenanigans like Prophetic Prism and 10-12 gainlands...
I've actually found very few issues with mana using Zephyr's list. Of the 50 or so games I've played, I only recall missing a color twice when it really mattered, which can happen with even a dual colored deck. Using the fetchland and Brainstorm trick really helps, and we still have Ponder, etc. Granted, these tests were run on Forge because the paper pieces are still in the mail.
It runs the same number of taplands than the UG stock lists, which run 4 Wilds and 4 Thornwood Falls, but instead swapping the falls for 4 more fetches. I don't run the 3 Mental Note, opting for some Burn spells instead, and some more fetches to further develop the yard while shuffling for Brainstorm. The deck runs as smooth and fast straight UG, and achieves Thresh at roughly the same speed. Since I drafted the list yesterday I've played like 8 games, losing none yet. I played agains UB Angler (against which Vapor Snag is a must if we want to stand a chance), twice against the UG mirror, in which the burn spells greatly push our advantage as the favorite, once against Slivers where again burn spells are key, twice against Delver where the 1 CMC burn and fat, cheap threats make us able to overrun them, and once agains Drake where you just need to go full turbo and race them, countering and killing Drakes, forcing them to tap out, and even throwing Bolts at their face instead of their creatures if needed be.
I'd just want to adjust a pair of Daze just so people are forced to play around them and a third Gush because the card's so good.
After testing your list for a bit, I'd say my only issue is sometimes tossing my one Mountain in the graveyard with Thought Scour. It's rare, but still an annoying occurrence when you pull a hand with only blue and green cards, an Island and a Terramorphic Expanse, go Island into Delver of Secrets, Terramorphic for a Forest and then Thought Scour on the next turn and your only source of red mana goes to the graveyard. I don't know if it's the online shuffling, but it's happened to me more than once. Have you run into that problem at all? I was thinking of taking out one Terramorphic for another Mountain, but don't know if that would cut down too much on the amount of times I see shuffle effects after Brainstorming.
I haven't run into this issue yet, but I have it in mind every time I Thought Scour and I know the chance is very real, so I always fear a little bit I will get screwed. Including a second Mountain at the cost of a Fetchland seems like a good reasoning, and 11 Shuffle effects (counting Ponder) + Thought Scour tossing cards seem enough.
Hey guys, just got into this format and I can't decide if I should go with the madness creature route with Mongrel, rootwalla, wurm etc, or go delver mongoose hooting. I even would like to use Ninja of the deep hour but In your testing is UG madness less efficient than UG threshold?
Welcome to the format IamJapa! There is actually a primer on U/G Madness on the forum: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/paper-pauper-and-peasant/559544-pauper-u-g-madness]
Madness has been an interesting mechanic in Pauper, one that is still being worked on by the guys there (they know much more about the deck than I would). It has most of the pieces to be very similar to U/G Threshold in theory, but with the main differences being the number of creatures and the overall game plan. We want to tempo the opponent to the point where our small threats become bigger threats that can't be dealt with easily (hexproof, flying, etc), whereas, if I understand correctly, Madness wants to bring out quick beaters and overwhelm the opponent with less disruption than we use. Their primer would be a much better resource for you than my explaining a deck I've only ever fiddled with though. Try both if you can, and see what you prefer! It's part of the fun of an all commons format!
Ok guys, seems there's a new kid at the block. Grixis Delver has 5-0'd twice and the deck is similar enough to ours but running Black for Anglers instead of Green for the Thresh critters. Alex Ullman talks about it a bit here http://www.gatheringmagic.com/alexullman-09132016-waiting-for-saheeli/ and right at the end he says it might have potential in RUG decks. Basically it uses Thermo Alchemist as sort of a Pauper version of Young Pyromancer, and includes some deck tech that we have overlooked in Manamorphose. It fixes the mana in a three color deck, flips Delver and untaps Alchemist, fills the yard for Thresh and draws a card. I believe we can put the card to better use than Grixis (and it's easier to cast for us to boot). It's just now a matter of fitting some number of them and Alchemists and we're ready to go. Here are the lists that 5-0'd:
For starters it seems that they eschew a number of Thought Scour and reduce the Counterspell suite to a bare minimum. It also seems that Gitaxian Probe is a must run card for us now as it cycles for free, provides info, fills yard, flips Delver and untaps Alchemist. We could also drop down to 3 Werebears (Stock lists were running 3 anyways) and maybe eschew the Flame Slashes entirely as Alchemist massively speeds our clock. I'll get working on a new list as soon as I can.
Thanks dbdrummer7! I somehow missed Zephyr Scarlet's UG madness thread that he started. I'm very partial to UG madness ( mainly merfolk looter and Circular Logic) since I have tons of play when it was standard, and I wasn't that good with Legacy's Delver Threshold of today. From looking at that thread, I liked the idea of using quicksand + grapple with the past combo. Enables threshold and brings back quicksand back but might be safer to just run red bolts for that job.
@Zephyr: I was looking at those lists, wasn't quite sure what to add or take out yet. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with! Although I'd still hesitate to remove Flame Slash, I suppose it would make sense since we are still running Bolts. The Grixis list is definitely more disruptive, with less creatures (which could be a bit of a pain for them if Drake gets banned and MBC gets big again). Overall, I think I prefer RUG for now, as I think we have a better sideboard in our green cards. Let us know what testing does for you!
@IamJapa: No problem! Feel free to post in that thread when it comes to questions about Madness! As for the combo, it seems to be effective but I prefer the one mana, three damage of a Bolt personally. Not necessarily better per say, but less setup and I'm a sucker for a good burn spell.
After playing a bit with Thermo-Alchemist in place of Werebear, I quickly swapped the Bears back, as Alchemist is too passive without some cards in hand, and dies to Bolt to boot. Been running this list in Paper tournaments with pretty good success:
The only problem matchups I've found so far are Stompy and Tron. Stompy puts a lot of dudes super quick, so if you're able to answer to them all and empty their hand you win and if you don't you lose. Spell Pierce and Daze help against their pump spells at least.
Tron is another beast entirely. It's a super uphill battle, and a resolved Fangren Marauder gaining 5 life can be pretty much a loss. Your only hope is casting Vapor Snag on it to gain a turn and get through the final points of damage if you've been aggressive throughout the match.
Overall I've been getting 4-1 and 4-0-1 records on Paper tournament, but never 5-0, which means this deck is probably a step away from being a tier 1 deck. What it needs now is either some kind of basic Fetchlands that ETB untapped (Ash Barrens is a very good step in that direction, but it falls a bit too short) or a way to kill 5/5's (A downgrade of Dismember in a Masters product, but it's more wishful thinking than anything else).
I really like Memory Lapse in such a deck. Don't you? It is a perfect card for a Pauper Tempo deck.
I've tested it before due to it's easier casting cost, and I found answering a problem card for just one turn isn't where we want to be. It's rather better to run the Counterspell and straight up answer a card even if it costs double U.
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but, every time I play a threshold, or any gy based deck delirium, dredge, etc., my opponent has some sort of gy hate and just crushes me. Personally, I try to avoid gy based decks unless the meta is completely flooded with some other archetype that limits sideboard gy hate, or I only play threshold decks that are based around cards that only care about having threshold when the spell is cast and not keeping my gy full, i.e. Far Wanderings or Swirling Sandstorm. That way I can fill up my yard get my spell off and then I don't really care if my yard gets wrecked. Of course I could just be really unlucky.
I won't replace counterspell, I'd like to add 2x of it, cutting 1 slash and 1 snag maybe.
I wouldn't take out any slashes as they're our only way to deal with 4/4's, and 3 is the absolute minimum I would run. Vapor Snag answers Gurmag Angler and Atog regardless of it's P/T. I would cut just 1 Snag and maybe a single Counterspell.
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but, every time I play a threshold, or any gy based deck delirium, dredge, etc., my opponent has some sort of gy hate and just crushes me. Personally, I try to avoid gy based decks unless the meta is completely flooded with some other archetype that limits sideboard gy hate, or I only play threshold decks that are based around cards that only care about having threshold when the spell is cast and not keeping my gy full, i.e. Far Wanderings or Swirling Sandstorm. That way I can fill up my yard get my spell off and then I don't really care if my yard gets wrecked. Of course I could just be really unlucky.
I think you're being just unlucky. I've been able to win through hate by refilling the yard or just bashing in with Delver + Bolts. Almost all top tier decks in Pauper use the graveyard as a resource: MBC has Unearth and Chainer's Edict, Teachings runs Accumulated Knowledge and various Flashback spells, Gurmag Angler decks need it for Delve...
There's also something to be said for anticipating the opponent's moves. If the opp is likely to have yardhate, don't field *all* your Bears and 'geese, but maybe Brainstorm some of them away in favor of other options.
Thunderous Wrath is super legit. Been testing it since yesterday, replaced my 3 Flame Slash for them and never looked back. Hitting for 1/4 of life or killing a 5/5 for just a single Red is no joke, and we're greatly positioned to abuse Miracle with the amount of cantrips we run. We can even Brainstorm it back if we happen to draw it without R open. Now we just need some kind of common fetchlands that put lands untapped (like regular ones but fetching just two of the five basics) to be a little faster.
Same way it works in real life? What are you asking for specifically? Are you asking the controls for it? If it's bugged online? The rules for it? I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. If you really want to see it in action I would suggest watching game play of the legacy miracles deck on Youtube or something. Channelfireball has a number of videos showcasing the mechanic in action if that is what you are looking for.
In a physical game, I can draw my card and look at it before putting it into my hand. I will check out the videos. I have never played with the Miracle mechanic before, so I'm curious when is that window of opportunity to reveal the card and play it.
When you draw a Miracle card it pops up in one of those "Trigger" boxes and stays there until you play it or pass the trigger. You just click the trigger to put it on the stack if you want to use it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The following link is an invitation to join Pucatrade (card trading service though similar to TCGPLayer). If you follow the link then it awards me with tokens to exchange for actual cards. Thanks! https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
I've been going with Zephyr Scarlet's Temur list and been wondering how everyone feels about going back up to 3 gush and cutting one of the vapor snags? I feel like this may be more of a meta call, but I'm unsure.
Good to see this deck still being worked on. I saw someone mention it, but why no love for Manamorphose or Probe. Both cycle for virtually free while filling up the graveyard and Manamorphose can fix our mana for a turn
Since I think the shell is pretty much found by now as evidenced by several 5-0 with almost identical lists, my main concern now is working the manabase to support RUG without losing Tempo, so for starters it has to have the same number of ETB tapped lands in order to operate at the same speed. The tricky part now is to find the right number of R sources while still leaving enough Islands to be able to cast Gush / Daze, and keep Forests to a bare minimum since the only Green cards would be Nimble Mongoose and Werebear.
Splashing Red for Lightning Bolt and Flame Slash, and Pyroblast from the side basically makes us a carbon copy of the Legacy RUG delver, but trading Wasteland and Force of Will for Gush. So we lose on the denial part, but are able to gum up card advantage in order to not lose gas. We already play some of the best spells in Legacy too in Ponder, Brainstorm, Delver of Secrets, Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Spell Pierce and potentially Lightning Bolt.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I've actually found very few issues with mana using Zephyr's list. Of the 50 or so games I've played, I only recall missing a color twice when it really mattered, which can happen with even a dual colored deck. Using the fetchland and Brainstorm trick really helps, and we still have Ponder, etc. Granted, these tests were run on Forge because the paper pieces are still in the mail.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
Instant (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Vapor Snag
4 Thought Scour
4 Rune Snag
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gush
4 Ponder
2 Flame Slash
Land (18)
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Island
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
3 Spreading Seas
3 Ancient Grudge
It runs the same number of taplands than the UG stock lists, which run 4 Wilds and 4 Thornwood Falls, but instead swapping the falls for 4 more fetches. I don't run the 3 Mental Note, opting for some Burn spells instead, and some more fetches to further develop the yard while shuffling for Brainstorm. The deck runs as smooth and fast straight UG, and achieves Thresh at roughly the same speed. Since I drafted the list yesterday I've played like 8 games, losing none yet. I played agains UB Angler (against which Vapor Snag is a must if we want to stand a chance), twice against the UG mirror, in which the burn spells greatly push our advantage as the favorite, once against Slivers where again burn spells are key, twice against Delver where the 1 CMC burn and fat, cheap threats make us able to overrun them, and once agains Drake where you just need to go full turbo and race them, countering and killing Drakes, forcing them to tap out, and even throwing Bolts at their face instead of their creatures if needed be.
I'd just want to adjust a pair of Daze just so people are forced to play around them and a third Gush because the card's so good.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Land (18)
5 Island
2 Forest
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Thornwood Falls
Creature (18)
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Arrogant Wurm
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Merfolk Looter
2 Hooting Mandrills
Instant (17)
4 Æther Burst
4 Circular Logic
4 Vapor Snag
2 Grapple with the Past
3 Daze
Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Deep Analysis
Madness has been an interesting mechanic in Pauper, one that is still being worked on by the guys there (they know much more about the deck than I would). It has most of the pieces to be very similar to U/G Threshold in theory, but with the main differences being the number of creatures and the overall game plan. We want to tempo the opponent to the point where our small threats become bigger threats that can't be dealt with easily (hexproof, flying, etc), whereas, if I understand correctly, Madness wants to bring out quick beaters and overwhelm the opponent with less disruption than we use. Their primer would be a much better resource for you than my explaining a deck I've only ever fiddled with though. Try both if you can, and see what you prefer! It's part of the fun of an all commons format!
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Thermo-Alchemist
2 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Dispel
2 Gush
2 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Mountain
8 Island
1 Swiftwater Cliffs
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Annul
1 Deep Analysis
2 Electrickery
2 Flame Slash
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
2 Stormbound Geist
1 Sultai Scavenger
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Thermo-Alchemist
1 Gush
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Thought Scour
1 Deep Analysis
2 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Mountain
7 Island
2 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Swiftwater Cliffs
1 Deep Analysis
1 Dispel
3 Electrickery
2 Hydroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Stormbound Geist
For starters it seems that they eschew a number of Thought Scour and reduce the Counterspell suite to a bare minimum. It also seems that Gitaxian Probe is a must run card for us now as it cycles for free, provides info, fills yard, flips Delver and untaps Alchemist. We could also drop down to 3 Werebears (Stock lists were running 3 anyways) and maybe eschew the Flame Slashes entirely as Alchemist massively speeds our clock. I'll get working on a new list as soon as I can.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
@IamJapa: No problem! Feel free to post in that thread when it comes to questions about Madness! As for the combo, it seems to be effective but I prefer the one mana, three damage of a Bolt personally. Not necessarily better per say, but less setup and I'm a sucker for a good burn spell.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Flame Slash
Instant (23)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Vapor Snag
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gush
4 Ash Barrens
3 Evolving Wilds
7 Island
3 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Pyroblast
3 Stone Rain
2 Hydroblast
2 Dispel
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Electrickery
1 Pulse of Murasa
The only problem matchups I've found so far are Stompy and Tron. Stompy puts a lot of dudes super quick, so if you're able to answer to them all and empty their hand you win and if you don't you lose. Spell Pierce and Daze help against their pump spells at least.
Tron is another beast entirely. It's a super uphill battle, and a resolved Fangren Marauder gaining 5 life can be pretty much a loss. Your only hope is casting Vapor Snag on it to gain a turn and get through the final points of damage if you've been aggressive throughout the match.
Overall I've been getting 4-1 and 4-0-1 records on Paper tournament, but never 5-0, which means this deck is probably a step away from being a tier 1 deck. What it needs now is either some kind of basic Fetchlands that ETB untapped (Ash Barrens is a very good step in that direction, but it falls a bit too short) or a way to kill 5/5's (A downgrade of Dismember in a Masters product, but it's more wishful thinking than anything else).
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I've tested it before due to it's easier casting cost, and I found answering a problem card for just one turn isn't where we want to be. It's rather better to run the Counterspell and straight up answer a card even if it costs double U.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I wouldn't take out any slashes as they're our only way to deal with 4/4's, and 3 is the absolute minimum I would run. Vapor Snag answers Gurmag Angler and Atog regardless of it's P/T. I would cut just 1 Snag and maybe a single Counterspell.
I think you're being just unlucky. I've been able to win through hate by refilling the yard or just bashing in with Delver + Bolts. Almost all top tier decks in Pauper use the graveyard as a resource: MBC has Unearth and Chainer's Edict, Teachings runs Accumulated Knowledge and various Flashback spells, Gurmag Angler decks need it for Delve...
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Same way it works in real life? What are you asking for specifically? Are you asking the controls for it? If it's bugged online? The rules for it? I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. If you really want to see it in action I would suggest watching game play of the legacy miracles deck on Youtube or something. Channelfireball has a number of videos showcasing the mechanic in action if that is what you are looking for.
When you draw a Miracle card it pops up in one of those "Trigger" boxes and stays there until you play it or pass the trigger. You just click the trigger to put it on the stack if you want to use it.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
4 Ash Barrens
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Forest
7 Island
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Gush
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thunderous Wrath
3 Vapor Snag
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.