I talk about that a little bit in my primer. I find that not having Moment's Peace in the deck is a big downside to cutting Green. Failing that, I would run something like 16 Fogs to try to compensate.
I like your list, though! Looks pretty solid. I've come to prefer Muddle the Mixture to Arcane Denial, I would think about switching those two numbers. I think you might be running too many cycling lands, especially with 2x Oona's Grace and Compulsive Research.
I've got a Pauper Tournament next week, and I'll be bringing TurboFog. We should be about a dozen people. I know for a fact that one of my friends will be running Burn, specifically for me.
I'm hoping he'll get knocked out by another deck, but I removed 2 Tome Scour to add another Muddle the Mixture and a Quiet Disrepair maindeck. That should give him some trouble. I know he doesn't have Chain Lightnings and that he's likely to run more creatures, so I should have a fighting chance. Still not great for me, though.
So big question, outside of it not really being synergistic with Jace's Earsure why not play Curse of the Bloody Tome ?
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"Choose your next words carefully. They will be your last."
—Phage the Untouchable
"Last words huh? I choose to recite War and Peace from memory..."
— TheHandyman
So big question, outside of it not really being synergistic with Jace's Earsure why not play Curse of the Bloody Tome ?
Well, there isn't any anti-synergy going on, either. Curse could be added to the deck, however it's outclassed by Jace's Erasure. The only time it's better than the Erasure is when you aren't drawing cards from other spells, which happens, occasionally. But as soon as you play any draw spell at all, Erasure is on par or better than the Curse. I think another big defining feature is that it costs 3 mana, which can take a while to get out while trying to Fog every turn. Jace can come out earlier, therefore get a few cards ahead already. Curse also can't be tutored with Transmute.
Would you suggest using both in the deck? It's a possibility, but I don't know how effective it would be. I don't want to pay 3 mana for my win condition!
The tournament was re-scheduled for early May, so more people could join. It's going to be a bigger crowd than I thought. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
I'm starting to think that Lignify is better than Curse of Chains. My original argument was that if a spell would bounce the Curse, the creature would still be tapped, while with Lignify, it would be free to attack. Now I'm thinking that bounce spells really aren't that common and that I would be better off stopping a creature from having abilities rather than it just being tapped every turn. I realized that my opponent could still tap a creature in response to the tapping ability in the Upkeep phase. An untapping ability (like the very common Quirion Ranger) could also allow a creature to go freely under Curse of Chains. None of that could happen with Lignify, and all the opponent could do was pump and attack while I Fog as normal. Plus, Lignify is way more awesome. Turning people into trees: Yes!
If you're going to a tournament with 12+ people, there is bound to be bounce, unless my meta is the only one that goes giddy over MUC and faeries, and by "my meta" I mean "me."
Accumulated Knowledge is good sideboard against other mill decks. If your opponent mills a few into your GY for you, then you're essentially getting free extra draws, as having not had to pay for the ones that got milled. Same holds true for Rune Snag.
In terms of spot removal like Lignify and Curse of Chains I think I mentioned Mana Chains in your MUC thread. Sure it doesn't shut down attacking or abilities, but it can serve as a 1cmc blue-removal spell, or screw with your opponent's tempo as they pay the upkeep cost. Also great against ramp decks with mana dorks; Answer a turn 1 Llanowar Elf with a turn 1 mana chains, that'll piss them off to no end. Possibly something to sideboard.
If you're going to a tournament with 12+ people, there is bound to be bounce, unless my meta is the only one that goes giddy over MUC and faeries, and by "my meta" I mean "me."
Sure there's bound to be MUC and Faeries. I would never board in Lignify or Curse of Chains against either of them, though. The only bounce I'm really concerned with is Capsize when facing Ulamog's Crusher. My matchups against 8-post keep getting better and better, however.
Accumulated Knowledge is good sideboard against other mill decks. If your opponent mills a few into your GY for you, then you're essentially getting free extra draws, as having not had to pay for the ones that got milled. Same holds true for Rune Snag.
I've yet to see a functional and even remotely competitive mill deck in Pauper. I don't think I would ever sideboard against these guys. And drawing extra cards is maybe not the best tactic to fight mill. I believe Feldon's Cane is Pauper legal, having been printed as a common in Chronicles. I hate conditional counters like Rune Snag for decks that go to the late game. They can end up being dead draws.
In terms of spot removal like Lignify and Curse of Chains I think I mentioned Mana Chains in your MUC thread. Sure it doesn't shut down attacking or abilities, but it can serve as a 1cmc blue-removal spell, or screw with your opponent's tempo as they pay the upkeep cost. Also great against ramp decks with mana dorks; Answer a turn 1 Llanowar Elf with a turn 1 mana chains, that'll piss them off to no end. Possibly something to sideboard.
Against decks like 8-post, Mana Chains is practically useless, unfortunately. Facing just about any other creature deck, it could be useful, but I already run so many Fogs. I could see it killing a Goblin Fireslinger. The deck would run Lignify more for stopping abilities (immediately), rather than actually killing creatures (which, in most scenarios, is not so important). I don't like how the opponent can still keep it around without much of a drawback for at least 2-3 turns.
I went 2-2 and became 5th
- White Weenie (2-1). Lost game two by not having enough fog's early enough. The other games were just like it's supposed to be.
- Burn (1-2). Won game two on CoP. Game three the CoP was to slow. Maybe need some more lifegain to actually win this.
- UG Tempo (2-0). Almost lost because of his counterspells. I milled him out with only 1 life left.
- Faeries (0-2). Pretty much even worse than burn. Just one or two well-timed counterwars and you die.
I loved playing the deck, so it's a keeper for the upcoming events. Changes I think about right now:
-1 Deep Analysis (to expensive)
-1 Oona's Grace (cost to much, got beaten by skyscribing in Peasant)
-1 Psychic Spiral (never relevant, Jace's Erasure was way quicker)
-1 Constant Mists (never used the buyback)
+2 Arcane Denial (best counterspell for this deck, only really bad against burn. I loved the one blue mana symbol. I used the transmute part of MtM only twice in 10 games. Which was both times with more counterspells in hand, so it was better to get rid of it.)
+2 Rest for the Weary (8 life for 2 mana, that's ok. You play 8 fetchland)
I cut 2 uncommon slots from the maindeck, so maybe you know some uncommons that will easily replace a common from my maindeck right now.
That's a really interesting list! And you did okay, considering you faced two very bad matchups for the deck. Congratulations!
Have you thought of cutting the Circle of Protection: Black from your sideboard? In what matchups is it necessary?
In my pauper version, I run 4X Nourish in the sideboard to fight burn. It's very good because it's worth two of their burn spells. If you think Rest for the Weary is worth the risk of not having a land drop for it, that's up to you. If you still can't find room for some uncommon slots, play Hero's Reunion. I also wouldn't put them in the main deck. Against many decks, they'll be pretty much useless. I recommend putting those in your sideboard and adding more counters main instead.
Considering how many bad matchups you have, I would consider adding another Muddle the Mixture to the main deck. It can search up most any answer you need as well as being a relevant counter.
How was Skyscribing for you? That seems like a really great addition!
Too bad about Psychic Spiral, it looks good on paper. Maybe not so much in practice.
Isochron Scepter is something I had never thought of, but is in fact the perfect card for the Peasant version of the deck. I bet it saved you a lot! Great thinking!
A great uncommon to add to the deck if you have some space is Hedron Crab. Those 8 fetches can really make a big difference, and he can provide some early defense in a pinch.
You may want to give Constant Mists another shot, it's a really excellent card. You may not have had a chance to play it for it's buyback cost from having only 1 in your deck. Same goes for Oona's Grace. From personal experience, that card saves the day. When you're established in the late game, it makes sure you turn your excess land drops into something relevant. I could see both these cards being less important to you because of the Scepter, in which case you don't have to worry about finding the next Fog.
By the way, when you use the Deck tags, you don't have to surround all your cards with Card tags, the Deck tags do it already! That should save you some time when writing in a deck.
The problem with defining this format by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
As for your list, I really can't say anything is wrong with it in any way. It looks like a perfectly good Bant list!
I would say be careful with the number of EtB tapped lands you play. You are currently running 12 of them, which is over half your mana base. TurboFog can often afford to be slow (more so than any other deck), but it does eat up a lot of mana to stay on top. There's nothing more depressing than needing that next land and drawing a Simic Growth Chamber or something.
You're also on the light side for Fogs. I would think about cutting 1 draw spell and 1 Arcane Denial for 2 more Fogs effects.
You're not using Circle of Protection: Red in your sideboard? Is the Relic in there for something specific?
Nice deck! Looks good. I'm thinking more and more about splashing white and using Expanses and Brainstorms, as it seems like a good compromise. What number of Terramorphic Expanses and Evolving Wilds do you think is right?
I played Pauper (TurboFog) and Legacy (Armageddon Stax). I got totally destroyed in the Legacy part, largely because I mulliganed to 5 in every game. Bad luck.
Out of the 14 people that showed up, only 6 played Pauper. Kinda too bad, but I still got to play a few games.
The field was very Blue; there was me on TurboFog, a Delver, a mono-Blue Control then a Hexproof, a GW aggro deck and a Sui-Black. It was so awesome to have such variety.
My first match was against the U control deck. It was a really interesting match, but I think my knowledge of the deck really paid off. In game 1 I was able to bait him into countering Fogs and tapping out on his turn, which left me lots of room to play my Erasures and protect them with my own counters. In game 2 I boarded -2 Spore Cloud, -4 Respite, +4 Counterspell, +2 Muddle the Mixture. I stuck a Quiet Disrepair on a Spire Golem and actually gained quite a bit of life from fogging afterwards. There was a counter war which I lost following a bounce spell to my Erasure. I still won in the end.
Round two was against the Hexproof. It was no contest. Game 1 I fogged him to death. Game 2 I didn't sideboard and fogged him to death again.
The final round was against the GW aggro deck, which was basically a repeat of the second round. It was a bit funny to see his Muscle Bursts getting huge and then me just fogging in response. He was pretty discouraged.
So, first place!
So there ended up not even being any Burn played, as my friend decided to run Delver instead. Apparently he got taken down by the GW aggro player. He said Intervenes were very good, though.
As for me, I was quite happy with the result! Everything went exactly the way I wanted it to, and I was very happy with my deck. I think I was quite lucky to have played a bunch of good matches in a row. Losing the Legacy portion was made up for me trading 200$ worth of cards for a playset of Wastelands! Yay!
Disciple of the Vault and Ulamog's Crusher are the only creatures I'm affraid of.
I even thought about playing Dispel in the SB, so I can win some counterwars.
There are some creatures that we do care about, like the ones Dedmer mentioned. I see the double U as such a small drawback to running Counterspell that it's really worth it to have a general counter.
I've yet to run into Disciple of the Vault in any play. Is he that popular in Affinity? This is where sideboarding Lignify is great.
Dispel in the sideboard is an excellent idea if you're facing lots of countermagic.
I am going to build it with negates for now. I already have those and I am trying to assemble this on a VERY limited budget.
My online game store is also out of Moment's Peace and Compulsive Research so I am not sure what I am going to run in those slots until I can order those. I know Peace is probably the most important card in the deck...
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I am going to build it with negates for now. I already have those and I am trying to assemble this on a VERY limited budget.
My online game store is also out of Moment's Peace and Compulsive Research so I am not sure what I am going to run in those slots until I can order those. I know Peace is probably the most important card in the deck...
Moment's Peace is invaluable yes, but if they are not available you could just up the count of the other fog cards to take it's place for now. The major drawback being you are outing yourself of four extra fogs since you would be missing the flashback, but you may not need them all the time.
I am going to build it with negates for now. I already have those and I am trying to assemble this on a VERY limited budget.
My online game store is also out of Moment's Peace and Compulsive Research so I am not sure what I am going to run in those slots until I can order those. I know Peace is probably the most important card in the deck...
Negate is good for a budget, I guess. I bet you can find Counterspells for 1$ a piece if you shop around a bit. Dispel is also great depending on what you're sideboarding Negate for.
Instead of Moment's peace, you can fill out with more Respite, Spore Cloud, Undergrowth or Lull, again, depending on what you're fighting. Obviously, you'll lose a lot of power from not having Peace, so I suggest you get those as soon as you can.
As for Compulsive Research, they're not essential to the deck, and you can replace them with just about any card draw you want. See Beyond is actually pretty good and so is Deep Analysis (even if it's a bit expensive).
I notice some people play gates, bounce lands and wilds/expanses. Has anyone found this helpful in a simic build or too slow?
Honestly I would stick to what we have, I consider that to slow as you may need that mana on the turn you drop it regardless of what it can provide on the turn after.
Coming into play tapped can really hurt especially if you need to fog and draw on the same turn to replenish any fogs you used or don't have. If you only have a Moment's Peace two mana on the field and a gate in your hand, you won't be able to flashback it if you don't draw a new fog or standard mana.
With that being said it may work depending on what is in your meta, as for mine I NEED, absolutely NEED to hit my fogs and deck them as quickly as possible or I am screwed. Taking my own decks into account, if I miss a single fog against my White Weenie the deck gets hosed, if I miss a single fog against my Nim Equipment once again the deck gets hosed. So taking a chance on lands coming into play tapped is risky.
I notice some people play gates, bounce lands and wilds/expanses. Has anyone found this helpful in a simic build or too slow?
Very nice of your friend to help you out!
In a simic build, I don't think they are necessary. Unless I'm fighting infect, I will generally even keep a hand without green mana as long as I'm packing some number of 2-mana draw spells and/ or Ponders. The mass amount of draw lets you find the coloured mana you need in the beginning of the game.
Builds you see running fetches most often use them almost strictly to improve Brainstorm, or to search for a splash colour (white or green, depending on the build). I personally don't think that messing with the mana base is worth the added ability of Brainstorm, as most of the time Ponder will do exactly the same thing (though at sorcery speed, unfortunately).
On another note, I've been finding the lone copy of Quiet Disrepair in the main deck to be really great. I've actually been playing TurboFog against non-Pauper casual decks and been doing quite well lol. You really can make some Pauper decks that can be truly competitive!
On another note, I've been finding the lone copy of Quiet Disrepair in the main deck to be really great. I've actually been playing TurboFog against non-Pauper casual decks and been doing quite well lol. You really can make some Pauper decks that can be truly competitive!
Pauper decks are not to be taken lightly you are very correct about that. Turbo-Fog as destroyed my Modern Knight deck, my Casual Soldier deck and my Modern Soul Sisters deck. Turbo-Fog ish da devil :swear::argh::banghead:
It's a really bad matchup. The best thing to do is to board out the more expensive Fogs and and the two flex slots in favor of all the countermagic you have. They may run 16 counters, but you can avoid many of them. I've found it really easy to work around Daze, and if you hit all you land drops, Mana Leak is next to useless by turn 7. The ones to really worry about are Spellstutter Sprite and Counterspell.
A good trick is to use Jace's Erasure as bait. They draw many cards, so only a single Erasure is necessary to win. They'll often spend all their counters on Erasure, which in the end don't contribute to anything until you win.
I can't say much more than to board in lots of countermagic. In your case, having Dispel in your sideboard is probably a good idea. If you're expecting to face Delver more than any other deck, you shouldn't play TurboFog; you'll get curb-stomped by a bunch of faeries on a regular basis. TurboFog is good in an aggro-heavy meta or a blind meta (since it completely hoses aggro and runs countermagic versus combo). The mixture of a fast clock with counter backup is just too much for a deck that relies on casting its' spells every turn to survive.
Your deck looks like a great start. I think you should be concentrating a little less on mill spells like Mind Sculpt and more on having fogs. You could use an entire playset of something else. I also find you're counter-light, which could explain your weakness against burn and delver (although those matchups are difficult in general). Sideboarding for those two matchups should improve your chances significantly.
Also, don't underestimate the power of Vision Skeins and Words of Wisdom. They're the most powerful draw spells in Pauper on a card/ cost ratio. The disadvantage is mitigated by the opponent being unable to kill you with their creatures, no matter how many they draw.
I tested before another slower versions of the deck (Less mill and more control/fog) but I noticed that, in a lot of games I lost because the mill was really slow, for example versus cloud decks. So, I decided to play this version on base and put the control/fog on the sideboard, when I can change it for the quicker mill spells.
Anyway, i will continue testing it and I will post news soon
Ah, Had I been able to see your sideboard, I might have understood what you were doing.
It seems to me you've set up your deck to fight Post, then everything else. The mill might be slow, but you can afford to be slow versus many decks. I have not had any issues with Post, and I only run Jace's Erasure. I also have more countemagic which gives me a better chance. Post board, things improve dramatically with the inclusion of even more countermagic. The fact that we play very few permanents is a big advantage versus Temporal Fissure, as it's very easy to come back from it.
You play online, and as I understand it, you folks are swarmed with Fissure Post decks. In a way, you might be right in stacking your fogs into the sideboard and concentrating on beating the dominant deck. You just open yourself up to having very bad matchups against decks that TurboFog was originally built to beat.
Have you considered Curse of the Bloody Tome? If you want to mill more, this could really pull its' weight for you on top of the Erasures.
For Modern Pauper, I'm afraid not. You lose too many of the good fog effects for it to be decent. Maybe a more mill-oriented version could work, like the one posted a few posts ago.
I like your list, though! Looks pretty solid. I've come to prefer Muddle the Mixture to Arcane Denial, I would think about switching those two numbers. I think you might be running too many cycling lands, especially with 2x Oona's Grace and Compulsive Research.
I've got a Pauper Tournament next week, and I'll be bringing TurboFog. We should be about a dozen people. I know for a fact that one of my friends will be running Burn, specifically for me.
Here's the list I'll be taking :
4 Fog
2 Undergrowth
2 Respite
4 Moment's Peace
2 Spore Cloud
Draw (16)
4 Ponder
4 Words of Wisdom
4 Vision Skeins
2 Compulsive Research
2 Oona's Grace
2 Arcane Denial
3 Muddle the Mixture
Mill (4)
4 Jace's Erasure
Other (1)
1 Quiet Disrepair
Lands (20)
9 Forest
11 Island
2 Arcane Denial
1 Muddle the Mixture
4 Counterspell
4 Nourish
1 Curse of Chains
3 Quiet Disrepair
I'm hoping he'll get knocked out by another deck, but I removed 2 Tome Scour to add another Muddle the Mixture and a Quiet Disrepair maindeck. That should give him some trouble. I know he doesn't have Chain Lightnings and that he's likely to run more creatures, so I should have a fighting chance. Still not great for me, though.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Curse of the Bloody Tome ?
"Choose your next words carefully. They will be your last."
—Phage the Untouchable
"Last words huh? I choose to recite War and Peace from memory..."
— TheHandyman
Well, there isn't any anti-synergy going on, either. Curse could be added to the deck, however it's outclassed by Jace's Erasure. The only time it's better than the Erasure is when you aren't drawing cards from other spells, which happens, occasionally. But as soon as you play any draw spell at all, Erasure is on par or better than the Curse. I think another big defining feature is that it costs 3 mana, which can take a while to get out while trying to Fog every turn. Jace can come out earlier, therefore get a few cards ahead already. Curse also can't be tutored with Transmute.
Would you suggest using both in the deck? It's a possibility, but I don't know how effective it would be. I don't want to pay 3 mana for my win condition!
The tournament was re-scheduled for early May, so more people could join. It's going to be a bigger crowd than I thought. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
I'm starting to think that Lignify is better than Curse of Chains. My original argument was that if a spell would bounce the Curse, the creature would still be tapped, while with Lignify, it would be free to attack. Now I'm thinking that bounce spells really aren't that common and that I would be better off stopping a creature from having abilities rather than it just being tapped every turn. I realized that my opponent could still tap a creature in response to the tapping ability in the Upkeep phase. An untapping ability (like the very common Quirion Ranger) could also allow a creature to go freely under Curse of Chains. None of that could happen with Lignify, and all the opponent could do was pump and attack while I Fog as normal. Plus, Lignify is way more awesome. Turning people into trees: Yes!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Accumulated Knowledge is good sideboard against other mill decks. If your opponent mills a few into your GY for you, then you're essentially getting free extra draws, as having not had to pay for the ones that got milled. Same holds true for Rune Snag.
In terms of spot removal like Lignify and Curse of Chains I think I mentioned Mana Chains in your MUC thread. Sure it doesn't shut down attacking or abilities, but it can serve as a 1cmc blue-removal spell, or screw with your opponent's tempo as they pay the upkeep cost. Also great against ramp decks with mana dorks; Answer a turn 1 Llanowar Elf with a turn 1 mana chains, that'll piss them off to no end. Possibly something to sideboard.
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
Sure there's bound to be MUC and Faeries. I would never board in Lignify or Curse of Chains against either of them, though. The only bounce I'm really concerned with is Capsize when facing Ulamog's Crusher. My matchups against 8-post keep getting better and better, however.
I've yet to see a functional and even remotely competitive mill deck in Pauper. I don't think I would ever sideboard against these guys. And drawing extra cards is maybe not the best tactic to fight mill. I believe Feldon's Cane is Pauper legal, having been printed as a common in Chronicles. I hate conditional counters like Rune Snag for decks that go to the late game. They can end up being dead draws.
Against decks like 8-post, Mana Chains is practically useless, unfortunately. Facing just about any other creature deck, it could be useful, but I already run so many Fogs. I could see it killing a Goblin Fireslinger. The deck would run Lignify more for stopping abilities (immediately), rather than actually killing creatures (which, in most scenarios, is not so important). I don't like how the opponent can still keep it around without much of a drawback for at least 2-3 turns.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
That's a really interesting list! And you did okay, considering you faced two very bad matchups for the deck. Congratulations!
Have you thought of cutting the Circle of Protection: Black from your sideboard? In what matchups is it necessary?
In my pauper version, I run 4X Nourish in the sideboard to fight burn. It's very good because it's worth two of their burn spells. If you think Rest for the Weary is worth the risk of not having a land drop for it, that's up to you. If you still can't find room for some uncommon slots, play Hero's Reunion. I also wouldn't put them in the main deck. Against many decks, they'll be pretty much useless. I recommend putting those in your sideboard and adding more counters main instead.
Considering how many bad matchups you have, I would consider adding another Muddle the Mixture to the main deck. It can search up most any answer you need as well as being a relevant counter.
How was Skyscribing for you? That seems like a really great addition!
Too bad about Psychic Spiral, it looks good on paper. Maybe not so much in practice.
Isochron Scepter is something I had never thought of, but is in fact the perfect card for the Peasant version of the deck. I bet it saved you a lot! Great thinking!
A great uncommon to add to the deck if you have some space is Hedron Crab. Those 8 fetches can really make a big difference, and he can provide some early defense in a pinch.
You may want to give Constant Mists another shot, it's a really excellent card. You may not have had a chance to play it for it's buyback cost from having only 1 in your deck. Same goes for Oona's Grace. From personal experience, that card saves the day. When you're established in the late game, it makes sure you turn your excess land drops into something relevant. I could see both these cards being less important to you because of the Scepter, in which case you don't have to worry about finding the next Fog.
By the way, when you use the Deck tags, you don't have to surround all your cards with Card tags, the Deck tags do it already! That should save you some time when writing in a deck.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
This is the list I play. It's pretty outdated, but I still like it.
2 Azorius Chancery
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
5 Island
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Plains
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Simic Growth Chamber
2 Terramorphic Expanse
Instant: 30
4 Arcane Denial
4 Brainstorm
4 Dawn Charm
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Moment's Peace
2 Muddle the Mixture
1 Oona's Grace
3 Vision Skeins
4 Words of Wisdom
4 See Beyond
Enchantment: 4
4 Jace's Erasure
3 Counterspell
3 Hydroblast
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Rest for the Weary
Thanks so much! That actually means a lot to me!
As for your list, I really can't say anything is wrong with it in any way. It looks like a perfectly good Bant list!
I would say be careful with the number of EtB tapped lands you play. You are currently running 12 of them, which is over half your mana base. TurboFog can often afford to be slow (more so than any other deck), but it does eat up a lot of mana to stay on top. There's nothing more depressing than needing that next land and drawing a Simic Growth Chamber or something.
You're also on the light side for Fogs. I would think about cutting 1 draw spell and 1 Arcane Denial for 2 more Fogs effects.
You're not using Circle of Protection: Red in your sideboard? Is the Relic in there for something specific?
Nice deck! Looks good. I'm thinking more and more about splashing white and using Expanses and Brainstorms, as it seems like a good compromise. What number of Terramorphic Expanses and Evolving Wilds do you think is right?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I played Pauper (TurboFog) and Legacy (Armageddon Stax). I got totally destroyed in the Legacy part, largely because I mulliganed to 5 in every game. Bad luck.
Out of the 14 people that showed up, only 6 played Pauper. Kinda too bad, but I still got to play a few games.
The field was very Blue; there was me on TurboFog, a Delver, a mono-Blue Control then a Hexproof, a GW aggro deck and a Sui-Black. It was so awesome to have such variety.
4 Fog
2 Undergrowth
2 Respite
4 Moment's Peace
2 Spore Cloud
Draw (16)
4 Ponder
4 Words of Wisdom
4 Vision Skeins
2 Compulsive Research
2 Oona's Grace
2 Arcane Denial
2 Muddle the Mixture
Mill (4)
4 Jace's Erasure
Other (2)
1 Quiet Disrepair
1 Lignify
Lands (20)
9 Forest
11 Island
2 Arcane Denial
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Counterspell
4 Nourish
3 Quiet Disrepair
My first match was against the U control deck. It was a really interesting match, but I think my knowledge of the deck really paid off. In game 1 I was able to bait him into countering Fogs and tapping out on his turn, which left me lots of room to play my Erasures and protect them with my own counters. In game 2 I boarded -2 Spore Cloud, -4 Respite, +4 Counterspell, +2 Muddle the Mixture. I stuck a Quiet Disrepair on a Spire Golem and actually gained quite a bit of life from fogging afterwards. There was a counter war which I lost following a bounce spell to my Erasure. I still won in the end.
Round two was against the Hexproof. It was no contest. Game 1 I fogged him to death. Game 2 I didn't sideboard and fogged him to death again.
The final round was against the GW aggro deck, which was basically a repeat of the second round. It was a bit funny to see his Muscle Bursts getting huge and then me just fogging in response. He was pretty discouraged.
So, first place!
So there ended up not even being any Burn played, as my friend decided to run Delver instead. Apparently he got taken down by the GW aggro player. He said Intervenes were very good, though.
As for me, I was quite happy with the result! Everything went exactly the way I wanted it to, and I was very happy with my deck. I think I was quite lucky to have played a bunch of good matches in a row. Losing the Legacy portion was made up for me trading 200$ worth of cards for a playset of Wastelands! Yay!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Is the extra ability to counter creatures worth the UU vs 1U? The idea is that we don't really care about their creatures right?
[Pauper Cube] - Heisen's Travel Cube || [Cube] - USAstrat's Cube
[EDH] - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind || [Modern] - Grixis Kiln
There are some creatures that we do care about, like the ones Dedmer mentioned. I see the double U as such a small drawback to running Counterspell that it's really worth it to have a general counter.
I've yet to run into Disciple of the Vault in any play. Is he that popular in Affinity? This is where sideboarding Lignify is great.
Dispel in the sideboard is an excellent idea if you're facing lots of countermagic.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I am going to build it with negates for now. I already have those and I am trying to assemble this on a VERY limited budget.
My online game store is also out of Moment's Peace and Compulsive Research so I am not sure what I am going to run in those slots until I can order those. I know Peace is probably the most important card in the deck...
[Pauper Cube] - Heisen's Travel Cube || [Cube] - USAstrat's Cube
[EDH] - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind || [Modern] - Grixis Kiln
Moment's Peace is invaluable yes, but if they are not available you could just up the count of the other fog cards to take it's place for now. The major drawback being you are outing yourself of four extra fogs since you would be missing the flashback, but you may not need them all the time.
In place of Compulsive Research you could try Foresee or Amass the Components.
Either way this deck could be made to work without those cards, albeit most likely not as well but it can still function as intended.
W White Weenie
Negate is good for a budget, I guess. I bet you can find Counterspells for 1$ a piece if you shop around a bit. Dispel is also great depending on what you're sideboarding Negate for.
Instead of Moment's peace, you can fill out with more Respite, Spore Cloud, Undergrowth or Lull, again, depending on what you're fighting. Obviously, you'll lose a lot of power from not having Peace, so I suggest you get those as soon as you can.
As for Compulsive Research, they're not essential to the deck, and you can replace them with just about any card draw you want. See Beyond is actually pretty good and so is Deep Analysis (even if it's a bit expensive).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I notice some people play gates, bounce lands and wilds/expanses. Has anyone found this helpful in a simic build or too slow?
[Pauper Cube] - Heisen's Travel Cube || [Cube] - USAstrat's Cube
[EDH] - Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind || [Modern] - Grixis Kiln
Honestly I would stick to what we have, I consider that to slow as you may need that mana on the turn you drop it regardless of what it can provide on the turn after.
Coming into play tapped can really hurt especially if you need to fog and draw on the same turn to replenish any fogs you used or don't have. If you only have a Moment's Peace two mana on the field and a gate in your hand, you won't be able to flashback it if you don't draw a new fog or standard mana.
With that being said it may work depending on what is in your meta, as for mine I NEED, absolutely NEED to hit my fogs and deck them as quickly as possible or I am screwed. Taking my own decks into account, if I miss a single fog against my White Weenie the deck gets hosed, if I miss a single fog against my Nim Equipment once again the deck gets hosed. So taking a chance on lands coming into play tapped is risky.
W White Weenie
Very nice of your friend to help you out!
In a simic build, I don't think they are necessary. Unless I'm fighting infect, I will generally even keep a hand without green mana as long as I'm packing some number of 2-mana draw spells and/ or Ponders. The mass amount of draw lets you find the coloured mana you need in the beginning of the game.
Builds you see running fetches most often use them almost strictly to improve Brainstorm, or to search for a splash colour (white or green, depending on the build). I personally don't think that messing with the mana base is worth the added ability of Brainstorm, as most of the time Ponder will do exactly the same thing (though at sorcery speed, unfortunately).
On another note, I've been finding the lone copy of Quiet Disrepair in the main deck to be really great. I've actually been playing TurboFog against non-Pauper casual decks and been doing quite well lol. You really can make some Pauper decks that can be truly competitive!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Pauper decks are not to be taken lightly you are very correct about that. Turbo-Fog as destroyed my Modern Knight deck, my Casual Soldier deck and my Modern Soul Sisters deck. Turbo-Fog ish da devil :swear::argh::banghead:
W White Weenie
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A good trick is to use Jace's Erasure as bait. They draw many cards, so only a single Erasure is necessary to win. They'll often spend all their counters on Erasure, which in the end don't contribute to anything until you win.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4 mana leak
4 counterspell
4 rune snag
4 s.sprite
sprite, rune snag and counterspell are a problem
Deck Building Primer - Casual
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UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Hi there!
Your deck looks like a great start. I think you should be concentrating a little less on mill spells like Mind Sculpt and more on having fogs. You could use an entire playset of something else. I also find you're counter-light, which could explain your weakness against burn and delver (although those matchups are difficult in general). Sideboarding for those two matchups should improve your chances significantly.
Also, don't underestimate the power of Vision Skeins and Words of Wisdom. They're the most powerful draw spells in Pauper on a card/ cost ratio. The disadvantage is mitigated by the opponent being unable to kill you with their creatures, no matter how many they draw.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Ah, Had I been able to see your sideboard, I might have understood what you were doing.
It seems to me you've set up your deck to fight Post, then everything else. The mill might be slow, but you can afford to be slow versus many decks. I have not had any issues with Post, and I only run Jace's Erasure. I also have more countemagic which gives me a better chance. Post board, things improve dramatically with the inclusion of even more countermagic. The fact that we play very few permanents is a big advantage versus Temporal Fissure, as it's very easy to come back from it.
You play online, and as I understand it, you folks are swarmed with Fissure Post decks. In a way, you might be right in stacking your fogs into the sideboard and concentrating on beating the dominant deck. You just open yourself up to having very bad matchups against decks that TurboFog was originally built to beat.
Have you considered Curse of the Bloody Tome? If you want to mill more, this could really pull its' weight for you on top of the Erasures.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
For Modern Pauper, I'm afraid not. You lose too many of the good fog effects for it to be decent. Maybe a more mill-oriented version could work, like the one posted a few posts ago.
For just Modern, yes there is. It revolves around play artifacts that draw everyone cards (Howling Mine, Font of Mythos, Temple Bell, Rites of Flourishing) and then creates a lock with Isochron Scepter and things like Silence and Fogs. I'm a little fuzzy about the details, but I think that's how it works.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio