I've been taking a hard look at this deck too the last few days and examining a Peasant build for my meta (mixed casual/competitive decks, legacy banlist, varying budgets). I've been trying to decide if I want to go with Bant, Simic or Azorius and thought I'd share a few observations I've made with you.
1) Isochron Scepter and Sunstone bridges the gap somewhat between the green and white fogs. I can use on-line rarities so Tangle is available as an almost-as-good Moment's Peace - however these "double fogs" are less pivotal when you can run uncommons since the reusability gets redundant.
2) Constant Mists is still much better than Sunstone, and in fact, Dawn Charm is the only real competition against the green fogs (Tangle, Moment's Peace, Dawn Charm and Constant Mists being the best ones in a Scepter build). I wouldn't count Scepter as a fog as it does nothing on its own - it replaces the sorcery speed draw spells and fills the same role in supplying you with a steady stream of fogs. Dawn Charm + Isochron Scepter is such an improvement against burn and anything else that kills with direct damage though, so there's real incentive to play white anyway.
3) I've been finding a singleton Rest for the Weary an excellent tutor target for Muddle the Mixture in the main. First I thought a single Rune of Protection: Red was the way to go in the main (with back-up circles in the board), but it doesn't work well in a Bant build. For some reason I assumed life gain and damage prevention were redundant strategies, but actually they complement each other fantastically. Think about it. Once your draw gets going, of course the opponent will eventually be able to attack for more than 8/turn and then fogs are superior. But you will typically have to play fogs mid game to negate attacks for 4-6 damage too, and then Rest for the Weary is superior. Once you have Scepter/Constant Mists, you're also much better off with something that can put you out of burn/drain range than yet another fog. Combined with Dawn Charm and Scepter, it makes for a dramatically different game 1 against burn. The problem with tutoring for Quiet Disrepair is that you won't gain life until your turn 5 upkeep - without Dawn Charm for stalling, you may well have lost against burn then. Maindeck Nourish is definetely not as hawt as Rest for the Weary, but I think it should at least be tested for the pure simic build.
4) Bant Panorama is fantastic in this deck and highly recommended for those trying Bant builds. The shuffling is good with Brainstorm, but even more your entire deck is basically instant speed so you can pop it whenever you have spare mana to spend, and it still produces mana when you don't. They just seem better than redundant plains/forests. I've been trying a mana base of 4 expanse/wilds, 3 Bant panorama, 3 forest, 3 plains and 8 island for a total of 21 lands. Makes the bant build real smooth, but there are still limitations (like no Red Rune, which is possible and strong in the main in Azorius builds IMO).
5) I try to run as many Arcane Denial in the main as I can fit. I think it's much better than any draw spell beyond Brainstorm/Skeins/Words. I've also found a singleton MD Journey to Nowhere indispensible since I need to handle stuff like Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. It also really saves on fogs early - remove a threat on turn 3-4 and you may not need to start fogging until turn 6.
Overall, I'm finding that a mix of removal, fogs and lifegain is probably better than just running 14 fogs and calling it a day - especially with 2-3 Muddle the Mixture permitting a toolbox strategy. That's why Dawn Charm is such a strong choice too, because it is whatever it needs to be. I've also found that when you go peasant, Azorius and Bant seem to be the best builds. Azorius is weak to artifact removal but strongest against burn. Simic is weakest against burn and creature-light strategies, and drops very little in consistency if you convert it to Bant (thanks to panoramas and all that blue draw). To sum up, Bant seems to be the most balanced and I might start looking at a sideboard for it.
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Thank you so much for posting your findings concerning Peasant and just the deck in general! I think it's great you decided to pick it up and test it seriously.
1) Isochron Scepter and Sunstone bridges the gap somewhat between the green and white fogs. I can use on-line rarities so Tangle is available as an almost-as-good Moment's Peace - however these "double fogs" are less pivotal when you can run uncommons since the reusability gets redundant.
I found sunstone to be only marginally playable, being outclassed by Isochron Scepter all the way. I believe what this first point might draw as a conclusion that Green is no longer an essential colour once we have access to powerful uncommons such as these (unless you're going for Constant Mists).
2) Constant Mists is still much better than Sunstone, and in fact, Dawn Charm is the only real competition against the green fogs (Tangle, Moment's Peace, Dawn Charm and Constant Mists being the best ones in a Scepter build). I wouldn't count Scepter as a fog as it does nothing on its own - it replaces the sorcery speed draw spells and fills the same role in supplying you with a steady stream of fogs. Dawn Charm + Isochron Scepter is such an improvement against burn and anything else that kills with direct damage though, so there's real incentive to play white anyway.
Isochron is the end-game of the deck. I would happily run 4 and a Hedron Crab or Prosperity for example. Its versatility (especially with Dawn Charm) adds to its power, giving difficult games against decks like Burn a much better fighting chance in game 1. I think it's important to note that although it does not count as a fog, it eliminates the need for more fogs. I think, therefore, that it can definitely draw into the deck space that is normally reserved for Fog effects. Having 4 Scepters and 11 fogs sounds like a good ratio to me. The draw spells are still useful at milling the opponent and getting important countermagic at that point, so they're still more useful than subsequent fogs.
3) I've been finding a singleton Rest for the Weary an excellent tutor target for Muddle the Mixture in the main. First I thought a single Rune of Protection: Red was the way to go in the main (with back-up circles in the board), but it doesn't work well in a Bant build. For some reason I assumed life gain and damage prevention were redundant strategies, but actually they complement each other fantastically. Think about it. Once your draw gets going, of course the opponent will eventually be able to attack for more than 8/turn and then fogs are superior. But you will typically have to play fogs mid game to negate attacks for 4-6 damage too, and then Rest for the Weary is superior. Once you have Scepter/Constant Mists, you're also much better off with something that can put you out of burn/drain range than yet another fog. Combined with Dawn Charm and Scepter, it makes for a dramatically different game 1 against burn. The problem with tutoring for Quiet Disrepair is that you won't gain life until your turn 5 upkeep - without Dawn Charm for stalling, you may well have lost against burn then. Maindeck Nourish is definetely not as hawt as Rest for the Weary, but I think it should at least be tested for the pure simic build.
While I do agree that lifegain and damage prevention are complementary strategies, I think the issue is a bit more complex. While lifegain can negate a few attack steps in the early game, it can (and usually will be) be completely useless in the late game, as they'll be attacking for more than lethal at that point. Fogs, on the other hand, are solid throughout the game, whether it be turn 1 or turn 20. Fogs are more relevant than lifegain spells, to make things short. I don't want potentially throw games away just for the sake of potentially saving a card in some games. When it comes to Peasant strategies where further fogs are now useless, life gain becomes more attractive, for sure. Burn is not every matchup, though. Again, I think I would prefer countermagic, as it's a lot more versatile.
When playing post board, I have 12 counterspells in my deck on top of Nourish, enough to protect me while I set up the combo. Think of those 12 Counterspells as Dawn Charms. I just wanted to say again what success I've been having with the artifact lands. Laying a Quiet Disrepair on turn 2 is just back-breaking.
Dawn Charm is awesome, there's no getting around that. I see it as a card that saves a lot of sideboard space as well as improving pre-board matches in general.
I just thought of imprinting Respite on the scepter... Yummy.
4) Bant Panorama is fantastic in this deck and highly recommended for those trying Bant builds. The shuffling is good with Brainstorm, but even more your entire deck is basically instant speed so you can pop it whenever you have spare mana to spend, and it still produces mana when you don't. They just seem better than redundant plains/forests. I've been trying a mana base of 4 expanse/wilds, 3 Bant panorama, 3 forest, 3 plains and 8 island for a total of 21 lands. Makes the bant build real smooth, but there are still limitations (like no Red Rune, which is possible and strong in the main in Azorius builds IMO).
Thank you for bringing that up. I'll be adding that land to my list in the primer. It does seem rather good, although I don't like the fact that it costs mana to use, preventing you from fixing your mana on turn 1. I like your land split, though. You wouldn't consider running only Panoramas and no Expanses? What makes you split them that way?
I don't know about Rune of Protection: Red in the main. That seems like a HUGE metagame call. I get that it can be cycled if you're not against a Red deck, but then it's just a really bad draw spell.
5) I try to run as many Arcane Denial in the main as I can fit. I think it's much better than any draw spell beyond Brainstorm/Skeins/Words. I've also found a singleton MD Journey to Nowhere indispensible since I need to handle stuff like Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. It also really saves on fogs early - remove a threat on turn 3-4 and you may not need to start fogging until turn 6.
Maindeck Removal when going up against non-pauper decks has been a saviour for me as well. I had 1 Lignify and 1 Quiet Disprepair in the main just for those cases, and would probably continue to do so if I knew I'd be fighting non-pauper strategies. On Arcane Denial, I max out my Muddles before those, as Muddle gets me out of a lot more situations. I use it to fetch a Moment's Peace way more often than I actually counter spells, actually.
Overall, I'm finding that a mix of removal, fogs and lifegain is probably better than just running 14 fogs and calling it a day - especially with 2-3 Muddle the Mixture permitting a toolbox strategy. That's why Dawn Charm is such a strong choice too, because it is whatever it needs to be. I've also found that when you go peasant, Azorius and Bant seem to be the best builds. Azorius is weak to artifact removal but strongest against burn. Simic is weakest against burn and creature-light strategies, and drops very little in consistency if you convert it to Bant (thanks to panoramas and all that blue draw). To sum up, Bant seems to be the most balanced and I might start looking at a sideboard for it.
In peasant and casual environment, I won't disagree. For straight Pauper, however, I still prefer the smoothness of UG builds. If you want a deck that can Fog from turn three and on until victory, without interruption and consistently every game, then I believe I have it down to a tee. The deck thrives on having the right card at the right time (like any control deck), so running multiple types of narrower cards makes you run the risk of not being able to properly answer the situation. By using nothing but fogs, you eliminate combat as a means of victory. It creates a glaring weakness to non-combat damage or game loss, but these things are uncommon, and not to mention can be overcome with proper sideboarding.
For Peasant, I like the idea of an Azorius Build, and will probably get cracking on a list to put up in the Primer. If you could share your Bant list, I'd love to include it as well!
I found sunstone to be only marginally playable, being outclassed by Isochron Scepter all the way. I believe what this first point might draw as a conclusion that Green is no longer an essential colour once we have access to powerful uncommons such as these (unless you're going for Constant Mists).
My point exactly. Sunstone is basically scepter #5 in the azorius build. With access to green, I prefer the 3/2 split according to the primer. 2 Constant Mists is just the right number with 3 Muddle the Mixture, and it beats artifact removal. You can even imprint one on the Scepter when that's the best play, or you can imprint a draw spell on the scepter to fuel mists with land constantly while drawing ever more business. Against counters, t2 scepter can be possible, or drop it with counter back-up. It helps that transmuting is uncounterable.
I just thought of imprinting Respite on the scepter... Yummy.
Yeah, Respite might actually be better than Tangle - good call. You can just sit with two mana open until the end of their useless attack phase and then play your draw spells or counters. They can't afford to attack to make you spend mana. It's absolutely brutal against Rx aggro (goblins, zoo) and better than most fogs against Burn.
Thank you for bringing that up. I'll be adding that land to my list in the primer. It does seem rather good, although I don't like the fact that it costs mana to use, preventing you from fixing your mana on turn 1. I like your land split, though. You wouldn't consider running only Panoramas and no Expanses? What makes you split them that way?
Well, there are many things to consider:
1) IMO Panoramas replace redundant forests and plains rather than islands and expanses. There's plenty of colorless to pay (especially in a scepter build with every fog costing 1W or 1G), and that's usually what forest/plains #2 end up doing. So it's more of a realisation that more than 3 of each is unnecessary because it too often leads to multiples that could instead have been something more useful that still doesn't ETB tapped.
2) You want a t1 blue source for Brainstorm sometimes, defintely being able to brainstorm on t2 if needed. When you don't have Brainstorm, you want to make the most of your t1. Hence, 8 islands + 4 fetch seems ideal. You also want to be able to shuffle consistently after Brainstorm - t2-3 at the latest. 3 Muddle and 7 fetch lands guarantee this. However, it's always best to Brainstorm as late as possible, when you have more information, and that's what Panoramas accomplish. They are just an extra forest/plains in disguise until you want the shuffle effect, and then they bring in more islands!
3) With only panoramas and no expanses, I'd have too few shuffle effects, fewer shots at early Brainstorms, no ability to use t1 for fixing, and no reliable source of 1G or 1W on turn two against fast decks. You're often in the somewhat awkward situation of having to crack a fetch before it is best to brainstorm, so I think 10:4 is the ideal ratio (which is also what you see in legacy decks). It might be possible to cut a land from 21 to 20 by running the full playset of panoramas and only 2 each of Forest/Plains, but that's a bit too vulnerable to LD/discard for my taste and also it gives you fewer t2 G/W sources.
4) To sum up, Panoramas let you run lots of fetches with all the benefits that come with it, without having too many ETBT lands (pretty much the only downside). Most Bant lists I've seen on-line run the 6 standard fetches and 22 land, but I can really recommend 4+3 fetches and panoramas and 21 land instead.
I don't know about Rune of Protection: Red in the main. That seems like a HUGE metagame call. I get that it can be cycled if you're not against a Red deck, but then it's just a really bad draw spell.
Sure, and it's only for the azorius deck which is in itself a metagame call IMO, and best in peasant. I think your idea with artifact lands and 1 MD Quiet Disrepair is a very acceptable alternative in simic builds when paired with Respite. It should at least improve the burn MU by 10-20% compared to lists with plain fogs. My point though is that a small toolbox of CMC 2 spells works extremely well to plug the holes that the broad strategy of fogs+mill+counters presents when you're already running Muddle the Mixture. More so, locking permaments that can't be answered is just perfect when paired with "group hug draw" that increases your kill speed. If they draw cards at instant speed when not needed, so much the better. Also, having a few dead or suboptimal cards game 1 when you already have scepter+fog or constant mists that can't be answered is irrelevant. Your opponent is sitting there with all their threats and removal utterly useless, and lands that can only finance more useless spells. If we have 2-3 situational cards in the deck that can make us win game 1 when we really shouldn't, we can't complain
Here's my Bant build, no sideboard yet. I replaced the Tangle with Respite (untested) since I'm almost convinced they'd improve match-ups more overall.
Sideboard is likely to be roughly:
5 counters: Missing copies of muddle/arcane and either Counterspell and/or Negate, most likely. Nothing above 2 CMC since I want to be able to imprint.
5 silver bullets: stuff that tutors, I'm thinking 2 CoP:Red, 1 Disenchant (imprints), 1 Night Soil (nothing better at 2 CMC that I could find and 1 Into the Roil (against PWs and random stuff). I'd like something better against combo here too, but I found nothing useful at peasant level that grants untargetability, taxing effects (like Sphere of Resistance). Quiet Disrepair is a consideration too here. I've also considered something like Steve against Bridge from Below, simply because I couldn't find any better GY hate at 2 CMC. The zombie tokens help fuel Cabal Therapy and that can lead to not being able to counter Dread Return. Guess 1 Steve could be in the main though. He's kinda like a 1 man fog
5 additional removal: Oblivion Ring and Relic of Progenitus are top candidates for my meta. I'm also taking a good look at Piracy Charm because instant speed discard might be just what the doctor ordered against storm combo (In response to them playing the second last card in their hand: "Oh? Did you have to discard your hellbent Infernal Tutor now? Aww... So, you were counting storm..?") and it kills Grim Lavamancer or is a healing salve against burn. And oh, it imprints... Imagine that, if they go for it you counter, if they wait for more business they must discard EOT.
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Great deck! I was expecting it to be a lot more White, to be honest! Why a 3:2 Split with Constant Mists? I'm beginning to think 4:1 is probably better.
For your sideboard, Gilded Light (printed as a common in Vintage Masters), might be what you're looking for. Not sure where you're going with Night Soil, but Repopulate perhaps does it better (terrible for our win condition, though). If you want something on-theme that takes care of Bridge from Below, consider Spore Frog or Kami of False Hope. They could even be maindeck material, if you managed to squeeze them in somewhere.
I also hope you aren't planning to play this in multiplayer settings. It's absolutely horrid with more than 1 opponent.
Great deck! I was expecting it to be a lot more White, to be honest!
Hm, what white cards are you missing? IMO, Dawn Charm and sideboard options/silver bullets is pretty much all white has to offer in a Bant build.
Why a 3:2 Split with Constant Mists? I'm beginning to think 4:1 is probably better.
Don't you know there are two kinds of people in the world, those that keep spares and those that die horribly? If your first mist gets countered or discarded, you have a spare to tutor for. If not, you can be in the situation of having only a tutor in hand and hoping to top deck a mist to imprint on the scepter you can fetch, or fetch a Moment's Peace and hope to top deck more mists in two turns. If all your lands are mists, your entire deck is basically mists (either a land, a one- or two-shot mist, or a draw spell that draws more lands or mists). Not to mention that aggro decks *will* board in artifact hate against you. That second mist is better than the fourth scepter IMO.
For your sideboard, Gilded Light (printed as a common in Vintage Masters), might be what you're looking for.
Hmm, interesting! With cycling, broad applicability and being imprintable as well as tutorable, it might even go as a 1-of in the main. As a SB option against combo, well I see mostly mana less dredge, reanimator and storm combo and I'm thinking neither this nor Piracy Charm beats more counters or graveyard removal. I think it has a place as a 1-of MD though.
Not sure where you're going with Night Soil, but Repopulate perhaps does it better (terrible for our win condition, though).
Exiling Iona mostly. But yeah, it sucks, and GG is problematic especially if you want 1UU for tutoring - I'm probably better off with 3x Relic and digging with draw spells than trying to find something that tutors. It's a damn shame Ground Seal, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace are all rares
If you want something on-theme that takes care of Bridge from Below, consider Spore Frog or Kami of False Hope. They could even be maindeck material, if you managed to squeeze them in somewhere.
You know I considered those before, but letting my opponent trade my fogs away for his otherwise useless removal seemed terrible. I don't even think it merits testing. Sakura-Tribe Elder OTOH is nothing you waste removal on, and he still stalls well, and tutors. I think he might just be my secret tech!
I also hope you aren't planning to play this in multiplayer settings. It's absolutely horrid with more than 1 opponent.
Nah, we mostly play 1-on-1 or 2HG (I think it will rock in 2HG though). True multiplayer is only for EDH.
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Don't you know there are two kinds of people in the world, those that keep spares and those that die horribly? If your first mist gets countered or discarded, you have a spare to tutor for. If not, you can be in the situation of having only a tutor in hand and hoping to top deck a mist to imprint on the scepter you can fetch, or fetch a Moment's Peace and hope to top deck more mists in two turns. If all your lands are mists, your entire deck is basically mists (either a land, a one- or two-shot mist, or a draw spell that draws more lands or mists). Not to mention that aggro decks *will* board in artifact hate against you. That second mist is better than the fourth scepter IMO.
ok... Not to say Mist is bad, but Isochron doesn't tax your resources beyond the card you imprint. Mist costs you a land every time. By using Mist, you run the risk of not having the proper draws and lands to lay to be able to activate the buyback. Sceptre has no such issue. As for hate, both fall prey to counterspells, so I don't consider that an issue (and if I were, isochron is still better because you only play it once, not every turn, giving the opponent only one chance to counter it). The only time the artifact falls short is in front of artifact destruction, but we have counters and tons of other fogs for that anyways, not to mention not every deck plays it. The main thing to take from this I think is how little resources the Scepter takes as opposed to the land-hungry Constant Mists.
Hmm, interesting! With cycling, broad applicability and being imprintable as well as tutorable, it might even go as a 1-of in the main. As a SB option against combo, well I see mostly mana less dredge, reanimator and storm combo and I'm thinking neither this nor Piracy Charm beats more counters or graveyard removal. I think it has a place as a 1-of MD though.
I could see this as a mainboard inclusion in a non-peasant/pauper meta as well, as the applications are so broad (plus cycling).
Exiling Iona mostly. But yeah, it sucks, and GG is problematic especially if you want 1UU for tutoring - I'm probably better off with 3x Relic and digging with draw spells than trying to find something that tutors. It's a damn shame Ground Seal, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace are all rares
Yeah, no good tutor targets. Most likely better off with Relics or Crypts. This is where we rely on countermagic to pull us through tough times.
You know I considered those before, but letting my opponent trade my fogs away for his otherwise useless removal seemed terrible. I don't even think it merits testing. Sakura-Tribe Elder OTOH is nothing you waste removal on, and he still stalls well, and tutors. I think he might just be my secret tech!
The old "not good because of removal" argument. Steve is a good card, though. I have a hard time seeing it in this deck, but if you meta calls for that kind of thing...
By using Mist, you run the risk of not having the proper draws and lands to lay to be able to activate the buyback. Sceptre has no such issue.
"The proper draws" would be any card in the deck, because it's either:
A) A land to fuel the mist
B) Another fog to use instead of the mist
C) A counter that either tutors or cantrips into another card
D) A draw spell that draws one of A-C
E) A Scepter, that I can imprint the mist onto, if I don't have anything better to put on it
I definetely agree that Scepter > Mists against counters, and you may be right that 4/1 is a better way to go, mainly because Scepter can also be howling mine on steroids with a draw spell on it etc. I'll have to try it out and see what I like more. So far, I have had redundant mists a couple of times and a Scepter instead would probably have led to a quicker win.
I think you were right about Arcane Denial btw. Muddle is stronger, and I'm thinking more counters that draw for the opponent is bad against burn and combo in the board. I'll probably run it as a singleton catch-all in the main, and be able to board out the 8 skeins + words against burn etc. for hard counters like Counterspell and (maybe) Negate.
Those four singleton instants are strong answers on their own and just game ending on a scepter against the right deck. I've also considered a token producer like Sprout Swarm as an alt win con from the side for when mill is bad. Thoughts on this?
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For your Sprout Swarm idea, I think it's good, and probably necessary when fighting graveyard-oriented decks. However, considering how many cards you draw, how slow token a token creator it is and the adversity those 1/1s would likely face in combat, I feel like you would have a really hard time beating the opponent that way before succumbing to your own death by running out of cards. I think you need something that can kill a little faster, while still being difficult to deal with. But what? Is there an unblockable, shroud creature in Blue that could be used? At common, I don't think so. At uncommon, the first thing that comes to mind is Invisible Stalker, but that's not exactly fast, either. If we look at other evasive shrouders, we have Silhana Ledgewalker, Ascended Lawmage, and Thalakos Mistfolk (kinda). everything else seems too weak, imo.
I was also very interested in swapping Oona's Grace with Looter il-Kor in my MUC deck. He proved to be an even better card than Oona's, but the fact that it attracts removal immediately was its' downfall. Some commons are just extremely powerful, and that looter is one of them.
I think, were I to include a damage-based win condition, I would go for Thalakos Mistfolk. Not only is it basically unblockable, it stops itself from being killed by removal, and doubles as a means to prevent yourself from decking (which is not negligible in some circumstances). The fact that it's Richard Kane Ferguson artwork is icing on the cake.
I do believe I've taken the thread to the janky side... My apologies. Trying to innovate!
Haha, jank ftw! You know what occured to me last night as I was walking the dogs? Incinerate. Wut? Yes, Incinerate. On a Scepter.
Don't laugh, it's actually a pretty good idea, especially with the 4x Scepter plan. You tutor for the singleton SB Incinerate, imprint it on the scepter, and protect the scepter with counters until you get there. Who needs red mana? I probably wouldn't recommend this for a pauper meta, but some of my opponents run Eldrazi and I cannot win then - in fact, I'm also thinking about diversifying my fog base to include attack phase skippers so I can at least have a shot at game 1. Unfortunately there are none at 2 mana so I can't tutor for them.
Another thing I'm finding is that the whole "every one draws so I can mill faster" plan is not so good in diversified metas. As has already been discovered in this thread, those draw spells are so bad that you're better off boarding them out than the mists against Burn! I'm aiming for a main deck that can actually be decent post board against decks that are:
A) Immune to mill, or
B) Not hampered by fogs, or
C) Benefit too much from mass card draw, or
D) (worst of all) a combination of the above
I think this can be achieved with a Bant build, but it will probably entail a slower main deck mill speed. The good news is, you're not under as much pressure to mill quickly in peasant. Either the opponent can escape the scepter or constant mists lock, or he can't. OTOH, if some of his cards are actually useful, it makes more sense to send a greater proportion of them directly to the grave without him ever drawing them - even if it takes more turns doing so, you'll take less damage overall.
I'm thinking about cutting the Skeins for more diverse fogs and answers. I'm also re-considering more drastically if the massive draw is really needed in Peasant. Since it's more about finding a permanent solution in scepter or mists, I wonder if dig isn't more important (hello Impulse). Brainstorm on a Scepter is more than enough to power Jace's Erasure anyway, and does a better job of it than the occasional words/skeins. It's also pretty easy to assemble a couple of erasures and a Brainstorm on your second scepter once you go into the end game. And it ends pretty quickly after that. Plus, you never need to worry about boarding out words/skeins where it's bad, but can focus on the erasures and fogs if they are the problem and still have a very good draw package to find your SB cards. Again, not something I'd recommend for pauper, but scepter changes things.
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I think you hit on a very good point: The deck doesn't need to draw tons of cards anymore. When you can just keep reusing the Sceptre, there's not need to keep trying to find more Fogs. This opens the deck up to a lot more options. Milling in a non-Pauper/Peasant environment also gets a lot worse, as the presence of the big Eldrazi just shuffle entire graveyards back in, not to mention all the decks that benefit from milled cards.
Adding big digging spells sounds like a great idea. Impulse, Preordain, Ponder, etc. To help you find pieces. Accumulated Knowledge also gets better here. Who knows, maybe the milling plan can go altogether and you can find a better way to win. The sceptre changes everything.
I think milling as such is a great plan for this deck. You're creating a stale mate, so you ideally want to avoid winning through the red zone - you also want to avoid making your opponent's removal relevant. Jace's Erasure is very hard to deal with and you already have Brainstorm + Scepter to make it mill very quickly. It's also a lot easier to board out 3-4 Erasure for a damage or poison based win con when necessary, than it is to board out erasure AND a draw suite designed to mill. Where milling as such is only a small problem against decks that are resistant or have relevant plays from the grave that aren't hosed by fogs, "milling" from library to hand is bad against all decks that have relevant plays.
Here's another shot at a Bant peasant list with sideboard:
With 12 possible counters to protect it, I think the Incinerate-on-a-stick plan against Eldrazi etc. is solid. A couple of mistfolk could be included in the SB too (very fitting in a foggy world!) if it doesn't suffice.
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For sure, milling is good for this deck because it's difficult/ impossible to disrupt.
I like how you incorporated the Silences.
Keep in mind Impulse does not make you draw a card, it places it in your hand. It doesn't interact at all with Jace's Erasure, unfortunately.
I'm curious as to why you kept Last Breath over Celestial Flare in your deck. Neither of these cards deals with all the threats you could possibly face (Lavamancer vs Eldrazi, etc.), which puts you into an awkward position as to which to choose. Even if it can't be imprinted, wouldn't Journey to Nowhere better a better answer to all threats?
Played the Qualifier last Sunday. The deck performed very well, but seems I was not "trained" enough with the new possibilities and made some mistakes..
Game 1 - Monoblack. 2 - 0.
Was an easy game. Opponent used sign in blood 3 times each game, I was able to counter Corrupt and fog all the game. Many erasures quickly. I haven't used sideboard
Game 2 - Monoblack Devotion. 0 - 2. Cuombajj Witches won both games. Too much damage from them. I was not able to counter Gray Merchant of Asphodel and I lost game 2 because I left an Terramorphic to use with brainstorm... but at brainstorm I had enough cards to win... 3 erasures, brainstorm milled 9... then I had Vision skeins and Compulsive Research... but 4 lands and a terramorphic... Tried to use Compulsive Research trying to find another brainstorm but failed... with 3 cards left, the opponent won... Thinking in replace terramorphic (2 or 3 of them - I'm using 6 - for Bant Panorama)
I could went to game 3...
Game 3 - Delver. 0 - 2
Delver of Secrets in play, with some 1/1 faeries and many fogs... opponent tried to counter some of them, and after some success he won. The same on game 2... I played very bad at this game, many mistakes with mana usage, fog usage... and entered in some unnecessary "counterspell war"
Game 4 - Tron. 0 - 2
This was the worst match... game 1 I was close... but many Memory Lapse and bounces on Erasures got time enough to cast Ulamog... I used Moment of Silence 2 times, but after that he used some counters on other fogs and won...
Game 2 much more counters and bounces.... Erasure's were not in play, as he used lots of Echoing truth. Went to 5 final turns after 50 min, with 2 dawn charms in hand, I played 2 Oblivion rings on 2 creatures in play... but left no W mana to use Dawn Charm... and lost to a topdeck Rolling Thunder on the last turn...
The Bant version seems much more reliable, but I need to do some more training and play on a better day... I went 3-1, should be at least 2-1-1 without the mistakes...
Also, I'll think on Bant Panorama, as I can left it in game to brainstorm and generate mana...
Keep in mind Impulse does not make you draw a card, it places it in your hand. It doesn't interact at all with Jace's Erasure, unfortunately.
I'm curious as to why you kept Last Breath over Celestial Flare in your deck. Neither of these cards deals with all the threats you could possibly face (Lavamancer vs Eldrazi, etc.), which puts you into an awkward position as to which to choose. Even if it can't be imprinted, wouldn't Journey to Nowhere better a better answer to all threats?
Yeah, I figure Brainstorm is enough if you want your second (or even third!) stick to power Erasure. I thought about having a tutor target at the 2 CMC level for that purpose too, but I figured I'd just rather grab another Erasure in that case (or scepter, if I have Brainstorm).
I already run a Journey in the main as a catch-all. I found Celestial Flare wasn't really useful because I don't want eldrazi to attack at all, and I don't really care about big dudes that simply attack anyway. Against eldrazi, top prio is to get Silence on a stick and second prio is Incinerate on the next stick. That and countering enablers like Show and Tell of course. Journey suffices against decks that run a few big threats that can ignore fogs (like Jin Gitaxias), whereas repetitive killing with an instant on a stick is mostly of interest against decks that churn out utility weenies and often abuse them from the grave (Nic Fit etc). Last Breath is perfect against those.
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I'm so sorry for the late reply, I must have missed these updates somehow!
Really too bad about your performance. You had some really tough matches. Delver is extremely difficult to play correctly. You're correct in thinking that getting into counter wars must be carefully evaluated. Getting all your land drops is extremely important in this matchup.
Against MBC, I think your deck would benefit from Circle of Protection: Black. Boarding out a few fogs for a few more counters and a Circle would be pretty good. How were you boarding against these black decks?
Urdjur,
Thanks for explaining those card choices. It actually makes a lot of sense. Have had the chance to test those changes again? Do you find that the Erasures have lost a bit of their power without our powerful draw engine?
I'm still very happy with the peasant Bant list posted above - haven't changed a card so far. The new "life guildgates" would be cool to incorporate, but I want the shuffling from fetch lands for Brainstorm. I have been considering 1-2 Treasure Cruise too, probably over a few Impulse. Thoughts?
Now for an odd question: If you would design a portfolio of 3-4 peasant decks (legacy banlist) to go up against a varied, non-pauper meta, and you had this as a broad anti-aggro option, what would your other deck picks be? I know I want Burn, because I have all the cards already and because it has a good shot against this deck too (for when I practice with this deck against the missus ;). I was thinking I wanted something anti-combo/anti-graveyard and maybe Delver or Dimir Post or UB Trinkets could be a good starting point? I also think I want some silly hyper aggro like Affinity with plating or Infect with Invigorate. Combo is also a consideration, but I have no good options I think. My friend has a sac lands tendrils deck so I don't want to go storm, and I already run a mono blue Peregrine Drake list in pauper EDH so I don't want high tide/cloud of faeries combo either. Midnight/Presence or Axebane Guardian seem to weak, correct? I could defend such a pick though if it was ALSO anti-combo/anti-graveyard and filled a niche that Turbo Fog couldn't hope to fill. (That's a rather strong statement though - I find the Bant list has game against almost anything, it's amazing it hasn't made more of an impact on the small peasant scene that after all exists).
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I would play Treasure Cruise as a 1-of, I think. Seeing as how you're filling up your graveyard very quickly, it's an excellent choice. Unless you're deep in the Constant Mists plan, however, I think the second one might be a bit more difficult to play. I'd start with one, and if you feel you could handle a second, go for it!
So, you have Burn and you have Turbo Fog. If you want something anti-combo, I think you're going to want something Blue and/or Black, but not necessarily the decks you mentioned, as they are too slow to deal with fast Legacy combo decks. I think that if you built just a straight-up UB deck with Duress and other 1-mana discard, coupled with good countermagic, gravehate and a solid win condition (sounds like a home for Prescient Chimera or Benthic Giant), than you could have a playable deck.
A friend of mine plays an awesome Legacy deck that is built almost exclusively out of commons and uncommons. It runs on maindeck graveyard hate and Web of Inertia. He uses the powerful Rogue tribe to abuse Looter Il-Kor, Merrow Bonegnawer, Triton Shorestalker and Oona's Blackguard coupled with Phyrexian Furnace and Relic of Progenitus. It simultaneously locks out graveyard decks, creature decks and combo decks, and wins very decisively via hard-to-block creatures. I'm certain it can be ported to Peasant very effectively.
Aside from that, I think your best bet for combo is Infect. The fastest gun in the west, it competes for turn 2 kills with many Legacy decks.
If you want to know more about those archetypes or about UB decks, I would consider looking at the primer section or creating your own thread for help, as this is a bit off topic here!
I would play Treasure Cruise as a 1-of, I think. Seeing as how you're filling up your graveyard very quickly, it's an excellent choice. Unless you're deep in the Constant Mists plan, however, I think the second one might be a bit more difficult to play. I'd start with one, and if you feel you could handle a second, go for it!
I don't really plan on casting a second one, but I do think 2 is the right number for consistency. Goldfishing a bit, it is GREAT at just refilling your hand for almost no mana at all when you're running low on fogs or counters. Drawing both in one game is very rare, and if it happens you can often shuffle it away with Brainstorm. Ideally, I'd like to play 3 Impulse and 2 Treasure Cruise, but that would mean cutting a business spell... or maybe a land, which could actually be doable given the increase in draw power. I shall consider it.
Thanks for the input on the decks. I decided to go with Infect as you suggested, and a modified MBA list as well. No comments on them so far. Would be very happy if you'd check out the infect thread and my new thread on an "anti combo niche deck" in the main forum. Comments on my burn list (in the primer thread) are welcome too Cheers!
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Treasure Cruise will most likely be replacing 1 or two of my Compulsive Researches. I'm sure they'll be extremely effective, as Turbo Fog puts tons of cards in the graveyard quickly.
Glad I could help! I'll definitely be checking out your posts very soon!
So, as promised, a minor update to include Treasure Cruise. I was able to cut a land - actually two basics in favor of the last panorama. It keeps the same number of sources, and works better than I thought because I didn't take t2 Scepter off of panoramas into account - not an uncommon play as it turns out. Essentially, one can view the scepters as GW laundry lands as they let you play fogs without G or W sources! This helps keeping the mana base solid much more than I had initially considered. Then you can just crack the panorama for G or W when you feel like brainstorming - awesome!
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I had not thought of the Scepter that way, but it's absolutely true. Playing a Panorama early on doesn't matter at all if you have scepter up and running. That's great synergy. Time and testing will tell whether cutting that 21st land was the best call, though. I would have thought of cutting an Impulse before a land, I think. Are two Treasure Cruises really the best? I would have played around between 1-2 in the deck to see how they fit. Sometimes digging a card deeper is better than straight out drawing 3, for example (especially at instant speed).
Actually the card I'm the least happy with right now is Gilded Light. The problem with it is that it's not really the combo silver bullet I was hoping for. I can't tap out against combo, so this means tutoring for it on t5 at the earliest. Similarly, imprinting it is turn 4 at the earliest, and then I need it in hand which is unlikely. It's like a bad Impulse most games, TBH. The way game 1 against combo plays out is that I sit with UU open until ***** goes down (he plays a tutor or something like Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames). Any turn he doesn't try to pull something is a turn I can play an instant speed hand sculpting spell instead to get at least 2 counters so he can't kill me with Duress. If I get to 4 mana and can imprint a counter, that is usually the game.
I cut 1 Impulse and 1 net land (actually gaining an extra blue source doing so) for the 2 cruises. Right now I'm thinking I should put back the 4th Impulse over Gilded Light. Or maybe an extra island?
As requested, here's a small mini-primer for the Bant Peasant version:
Peasant turbo fog plays much like the pauper version, with one important and build changing exception: Isochron Scepter. In pauper, you're forced to include lots of draw-2s to fuel your fogging. In peasant, you can simply lazily rely on this fog machine instead. This also means that you no longer must include spells that may help your opponent draw into key cards that can defeat your strategy - instead, more and deeper dig is called for to find that posterior saving scepter!
Brainstorm, Impulse and Muddle the Mixture ensure that you *will* be imprinting fogs on a stick by turn 4 at the latest every single game, much to your opponents' frustration. A key Constant Mists help defeat heavy artifact removal. Finally, if things should go really wrong, Treasure Cruise is our new reset button that can allow us to bounce back to make that looong mid game even longer.
Isochron Scepter also affects the mana base in more subtle ways. Since it essentially allows fogs to be played for colorless mana, it makes a bant mana base much more stable than in pauper, so you can truly enjoy the best of both worlds. Bant Panorama really shines with it since you can use it to cast and activate scepter, pay for the colorless half of fogs and Impulse, and still have a fetch at hand mid game when you want to Brainstorm.
My build reflects a very varied, semi-casual/competitve meta using the legacy banlist and quite a few non-peasant/pauper decks (such as Dredge and Sac Land Tendrils). It is still a very solid deck in such a meta, for a super low price. If you don't have any eldrazi in your meta, you can safely ignore Moment of Silence (playing more Respite instead) and most likely ditch Incinerate as an imprintable/tutorable alt win con in the board as well. Meta adaptation mainly involves finding the counters and fogs that work best for you (see the pauper primer), as well as any 2 CMC instants that work well as silver bullets that can be imprinted on scepter and tutored by Muddle the Mixture (split as appropriate between main and side of course).
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I'm currently building my own Fog Deck.
I'll be listing the cards I find in the local stores around my area. Can you give me some alternatives for the hard to find cards like Words of Wisdom.
Thanks
1) Isochron Scepter and Sunstone bridges the gap somewhat between the green and white fogs. I can use on-line rarities so Tangle is available as an almost-as-good Moment's Peace - however these "double fogs" are less pivotal when you can run uncommons since the reusability gets redundant.
2) Constant Mists is still much better than Sunstone, and in fact, Dawn Charm is the only real competition against the green fogs (Tangle, Moment's Peace, Dawn Charm and Constant Mists being the best ones in a Scepter build). I wouldn't count Scepter as a fog as it does nothing on its own - it replaces the sorcery speed draw spells and fills the same role in supplying you with a steady stream of fogs. Dawn Charm + Isochron Scepter is such an improvement against burn and anything else that kills with direct damage though, so there's real incentive to play white anyway.
3) I've been finding a singleton Rest for the Weary an excellent tutor target for Muddle the Mixture in the main. First I thought a single Rune of Protection: Red was the way to go in the main (with back-up circles in the board), but it doesn't work well in a Bant build. For some reason I assumed life gain and damage prevention were redundant strategies, but actually they complement each other fantastically. Think about it. Once your draw gets going, of course the opponent will eventually be able to attack for more than 8/turn and then fogs are superior. But you will typically have to play fogs mid game to negate attacks for 4-6 damage too, and then Rest for the Weary is superior. Once you have Scepter/Constant Mists, you're also much better off with something that can put you out of burn/drain range than yet another fog. Combined with Dawn Charm and Scepter, it makes for a dramatically different game 1 against burn. The problem with tutoring for Quiet Disrepair is that you won't gain life until your turn 5 upkeep - without Dawn Charm for stalling, you may well have lost against burn then. Maindeck Nourish is definetely not as hawt as Rest for the Weary, but I think it should at least be tested for the pure simic build.
4) Bant Panorama is fantastic in this deck and highly recommended for those trying Bant builds. The shuffling is good with Brainstorm, but even more your entire deck is basically instant speed so you can pop it whenever you have spare mana to spend, and it still produces mana when you don't. They just seem better than redundant plains/forests. I've been trying a mana base of 4 expanse/wilds, 3 Bant panorama, 3 forest, 3 plains and 8 island for a total of 21 lands. Makes the bant build real smooth, but there are still limitations (like no Red Rune, which is possible and strong in the main in Azorius builds IMO).
5) I try to run as many Arcane Denial in the main as I can fit. I think it's much better than any draw spell beyond Brainstorm/Skeins/Words. I've also found a singleton MD Journey to Nowhere indispensible since I need to handle stuff like Deathrite Shaman and Grim Lavamancer. It also really saves on fogs early - remove a threat on turn 3-4 and you may not need to start fogging until turn 6.
Overall, I'm finding that a mix of removal, fogs and lifegain is probably better than just running 14 fogs and calling it a day - especially with 2-3 Muddle the Mixture permitting a toolbox strategy. That's why Dawn Charm is such a strong choice too, because it is whatever it needs to be. I've also found that when you go peasant, Azorius and Bant seem to be the best builds. Azorius is weak to artifact removal but strongest against burn. Simic is weakest against burn and creature-light strategies, and drops very little in consistency if you convert it to Bant (thanks to panoramas and all that blue draw). To sum up, Bant seems to be the most balanced and I might start looking at a sideboard for it.
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I found sunstone to be only marginally playable, being outclassed by Isochron Scepter all the way. I believe what this first point might draw as a conclusion that Green is no longer an essential colour once we have access to powerful uncommons such as these (unless you're going for Constant Mists).
Isochron is the end-game of the deck. I would happily run 4 and a Hedron Crab or Prosperity for example. Its versatility (especially with Dawn Charm) adds to its power, giving difficult games against decks like Burn a much better fighting chance in game 1. I think it's important to note that although it does not count as a fog, it eliminates the need for more fogs. I think, therefore, that it can definitely draw into the deck space that is normally reserved for Fog effects. Having 4 Scepters and 11 fogs sounds like a good ratio to me. The draw spells are still useful at milling the opponent and getting important countermagic at that point, so they're still more useful than subsequent fogs.
While I do agree that lifegain and damage prevention are complementary strategies, I think the issue is a bit more complex. While lifegain can negate a few attack steps in the early game, it can (and usually will be) be completely useless in the late game, as they'll be attacking for more than lethal at that point. Fogs, on the other hand, are solid throughout the game, whether it be turn 1 or turn 20. Fogs are more relevant than lifegain spells, to make things short. I don't want potentially throw games away just for the sake of potentially saving a card in some games. When it comes to Peasant strategies where further fogs are now useless, life gain becomes more attractive, for sure. Burn is not every matchup, though. Again, I think I would prefer countermagic, as it's a lot more versatile.
When playing post board, I have 12 counterspells in my deck on top of Nourish, enough to protect me while I set up the combo. Think of those 12 Counterspells as Dawn Charms. I just wanted to say again what success I've been having with the artifact lands. Laying a Quiet Disrepair on turn 2 is just back-breaking.
Dawn Charm is awesome, there's no getting around that. I see it as a card that saves a lot of sideboard space as well as improving pre-board matches in general.
I just thought of imprinting Respite on the scepter... Yummy.
Thank you for bringing that up. I'll be adding that land to my list in the primer. It does seem rather good, although I don't like the fact that it costs mana to use, preventing you from fixing your mana on turn 1. I like your land split, though. You wouldn't consider running only Panoramas and no Expanses? What makes you split them that way?
I don't know about Rune of Protection: Red in the main. That seems like a HUGE metagame call. I get that it can be cycled if you're not against a Red deck, but then it's just a really bad draw spell.
Maindeck Removal when going up against non-pauper decks has been a saviour for me as well. I had 1 Lignify and 1 Quiet Disprepair in the main just for those cases, and would probably continue to do so if I knew I'd be fighting non-pauper strategies. On Arcane Denial, I max out my Muddles before those, as Muddle gets me out of a lot more situations. I use it to fetch a Moment's Peace way more often than I actually counter spells, actually.
In peasant and casual environment, I won't disagree. For straight Pauper, however, I still prefer the smoothness of UG builds. If you want a deck that can Fog from turn three and on until victory, without interruption and consistently every game, then I believe I have it down to a tee. The deck thrives on having the right card at the right time (like any control deck), so running multiple types of narrower cards makes you run the risk of not being able to properly answer the situation. By using nothing but fogs, you eliminate combat as a means of victory. It creates a glaring weakness to non-combat damage or game loss, but these things are uncommon, and not to mention can be overcome with proper sideboarding.
For Peasant, I like the idea of an Azorius Build, and will probably get cracking on a list to put up in the Primer. If you could share your Bant list, I'd love to include it as well!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
My point exactly. Sunstone is basically scepter #5 in the azorius build. With access to green, I prefer the 3/2 split according to the primer. 2 Constant Mists is just the right number with 3 Muddle the Mixture, and it beats artifact removal. You can even imprint one on the Scepter when that's the best play, or you can imprint a draw spell on the scepter to fuel mists with land constantly while drawing ever more business. Against counters, t2 scepter can be possible, or drop it with counter back-up. It helps that transmuting is uncounterable.
Yeah, Respite might actually be better than Tangle - good call. You can just sit with two mana open until the end of their useless attack phase and then play your draw spells or counters. They can't afford to attack to make you spend mana. It's absolutely brutal against Rx aggro (goblins, zoo) and better than most fogs against Burn.
Well, there are many things to consider:
1) IMO Panoramas replace redundant forests and plains rather than islands and expanses. There's plenty of colorless to pay (especially in a scepter build with every fog costing 1W or 1G), and that's usually what forest/plains #2 end up doing. So it's more of a realisation that more than 3 of each is unnecessary because it too often leads to multiples that could instead have been something more useful that still doesn't ETB tapped.
2) You want a t1 blue source for Brainstorm sometimes, defintely being able to brainstorm on t2 if needed. When you don't have Brainstorm, you want to make the most of your t1. Hence, 8 islands + 4 fetch seems ideal. You also want to be able to shuffle consistently after Brainstorm - t2-3 at the latest. 3 Muddle and 7 fetch lands guarantee this. However, it's always best to Brainstorm as late as possible, when you have more information, and that's what Panoramas accomplish. They are just an extra forest/plains in disguise until you want the shuffle effect, and then they bring in more islands!
3) With only panoramas and no expanses, I'd have too few shuffle effects, fewer shots at early Brainstorms, no ability to use t1 for fixing, and no reliable source of 1G or 1W on turn two against fast decks. You're often in the somewhat awkward situation of having to crack a fetch before it is best to brainstorm, so I think 10:4 is the ideal ratio (which is also what you see in legacy decks). It might be possible to cut a land from 21 to 20 by running the full playset of panoramas and only 2 each of Forest/Plains, but that's a bit too vulnerable to LD/discard for my taste and also it gives you fewer t2 G/W sources.
4) To sum up, Panoramas let you run lots of fetches with all the benefits that come with it, without having too many ETBT lands (pretty much the only downside). Most Bant lists I've seen on-line run the 6 standard fetches and 22 land, but I can really recommend 4+3 fetches and panoramas and 21 land instead.
Sure, and it's only for the azorius deck which is in itself a metagame call IMO, and best in peasant. I think your idea with artifact lands and 1 MD Quiet Disrepair is a very acceptable alternative in simic builds when paired with Respite. It should at least improve the burn MU by 10-20% compared to lists with plain fogs. My point though is that a small toolbox of CMC 2 spells works extremely well to plug the holes that the broad strategy of fogs+mill+counters presents when you're already running Muddle the Mixture. More so, locking permaments that can't be answered is just perfect when paired with "group hug draw" that increases your kill speed. If they draw cards at instant speed when not needed, so much the better. Also, having a few dead or suboptimal cards game 1 when you already have scepter+fog or constant mists that can't be answered is irrelevant. Your opponent is sitting there with all their threats and removal utterly useless, and lands that can only finance more useless spells. If we have 2-3 situational cards in the deck that can make us win game 1 when we really shouldn't, we can't complain
Here's my Bant build, no sideboard yet. I replaced the Tangle with Respite (untested) since I'm almost convinced they'd improve match-ups more overall.
8 Island
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Bant Panorama
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Moment's Peace
4 Dawn Charm
2 Respite
2 Constant Mists
DRAW/ENGINE (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Words of Wisdom
4 Vision Skeins
3 Isochron Scepter
4 Jace's Erasure
COUNTERS (6)
3 Arcane Denial
3 Muddle the Mixture
TOOLBOX (2)
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Rest for the Weary
Sideboard is likely to be roughly:
5 counters: Missing copies of muddle/arcane and either Counterspell and/or Negate, most likely. Nothing above 2 CMC since I want to be able to imprint.
5 silver bullets: stuff that tutors, I'm thinking 2 CoP:Red, 1 Disenchant (imprints), 1 Night Soil (nothing better at 2 CMC that I could find and 1 Into the Roil (against PWs and random stuff). I'd like something better against combo here too, but I found nothing useful at peasant level that grants untargetability, taxing effects (like Sphere of Resistance). Quiet Disrepair is a consideration too here. I've also considered something like Steve against Bridge from Below, simply because I couldn't find any better GY hate at 2 CMC. The zombie tokens help fuel Cabal Therapy and that can lead to not being able to counter Dread Return. Guess 1 Steve could be in the main though. He's kinda like a 1 man fog
5 additional removal: Oblivion Ring and Relic of Progenitus are top candidates for my meta. I'm also taking a good look at Piracy Charm because instant speed discard might be just what the doctor ordered against storm combo (In response to them playing the second last card in their hand: "Oh? Did you have to discard your hellbent Infernal Tutor now? Aww... So, you were counting storm..?") and it kills Grim Lavamancer or is a healing salve against burn. And oh, it imprints... Imagine that, if they go for it you counter, if they wait for more business they must discard EOT.
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For your sideboard, Gilded Light (printed as a common in Vintage Masters), might be what you're looking for. Not sure where you're going with Night Soil, but Repopulate perhaps does it better (terrible for our win condition, though). If you want something on-theme that takes care of Bridge from Below, consider Spore Frog or Kami of False Hope. They could even be maindeck material, if you managed to squeeze them in somewhere.
I also hope you aren't planning to play this in multiplayer settings. It's absolutely horrid with more than 1 opponent.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Hm, what white cards are you missing? IMO, Dawn Charm and sideboard options/silver bullets is pretty much all white has to offer in a Bant build.
Don't you know there are two kinds of people in the world, those that keep spares and those that die horribly? If your first mist gets countered or discarded, you have a spare to tutor for. If not, you can be in the situation of having only a tutor in hand and hoping to top deck a mist to imprint on the scepter you can fetch, or fetch a Moment's Peace and hope to top deck more mists in two turns. If all your lands are mists, your entire deck is basically mists (either a land, a one- or two-shot mist, or a draw spell that draws more lands or mists). Not to mention that aggro decks *will* board in artifact hate against you. That second mist is better than the fourth scepter IMO.
Hmm, interesting! With cycling, broad applicability and being imprintable as well as tutorable, it might even go as a 1-of in the main. As a SB option against combo, well I see mostly mana less dredge, reanimator and storm combo and I'm thinking neither this nor Piracy Charm beats more counters or graveyard removal. I think it has a place as a 1-of MD though.
Exiling Iona mostly. But yeah, it sucks, and GG is problematic especially if you want 1UU for tutoring - I'm probably better off with 3x Relic and digging with draw spells than trying to find something that tutors. It's a damn shame Ground Seal, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace are all rares
You know I considered those before, but letting my opponent trade my fogs away for his otherwise useless removal seemed terrible. I don't even think it merits testing. Sakura-Tribe Elder OTOH is nothing you waste removal on, and he still stalls well, and tutors. I think he might just be my secret tech!
Nah, we mostly play 1-on-1 or 2HG (I think it will rock in 2HG though). True multiplayer is only for EDH.
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I was thinking of Moment of Silence and things like that, but in Peasant, the green fogs tend to get better, too. I like the configuration as it is.
ok... Not to say Mist is bad, but Isochron doesn't tax your resources beyond the card you imprint. Mist costs you a land every time. By using Mist, you run the risk of not having the proper draws and lands to lay to be able to activate the buyback. Sceptre has no such issue. As for hate, both fall prey to counterspells, so I don't consider that an issue (and if I were, isochron is still better because you only play it once, not every turn, giving the opponent only one chance to counter it). The only time the artifact falls short is in front of artifact destruction, but we have counters and tons of other fogs for that anyways, not to mention not every deck plays it. The main thing to take from this I think is how little resources the Scepter takes as opposed to the land-hungry Constant Mists.
I could see this as a mainboard inclusion in a non-peasant/pauper meta as well, as the applications are so broad (plus cycling).
Yeah, no good tutor targets. Most likely better off with Relics or Crypts. This is where we rely on countermagic to pull us through tough times.
The old "not good because of removal" argument. Steve is a good card, though. I have a hard time seeing it in this deck, but if you meta calls for that kind of thing...
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
"The proper draws" would be any card in the deck, because it's either:
A) A land to fuel the mist
B) Another fog to use instead of the mist
C) A counter that either tutors or cantrips into another card
D) A draw spell that draws one of A-C
E) A Scepter, that I can imprint the mist onto, if I don't have anything better to put on it
I definetely agree that Scepter > Mists against counters, and you may be right that 4/1 is a better way to go, mainly because Scepter can also be howling mine on steroids with a draw spell on it etc. I'll have to try it out and see what I like more. So far, I have had redundant mists a couple of times and a Scepter instead would probably have led to a quicker win.
I think you were right about Arcane Denial btw. Muddle is stronger, and I'm thinking more counters that draw for the opponent is bad against burn and combo in the board. I'll probably run it as a singleton catch-all in the main, and be able to board out the 8 skeins + words against burn etc. for hard counters like Counterspell and (maybe) Negate.
Idea for SB:
Those four singleton instants are strong answers on their own and just game ending on a scepter against the right deck. I've also considered a token producer like Sprout Swarm as an alt win con from the side for when mill is bad. Thoughts on this?
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For your Sprout Swarm idea, I think it's good, and probably necessary when fighting graveyard-oriented decks. However, considering how many cards you draw, how slow token a token creator it is and the adversity those 1/1s would likely face in combat, I feel like you would have a really hard time beating the opponent that way before succumbing to your own death by running out of cards. I think you need something that can kill a little faster, while still being difficult to deal with. But what? Is there an unblockable, shroud creature in Blue that could be used? At common, I don't think so. At uncommon, the first thing that comes to mind is Invisible Stalker, but that's not exactly fast, either. If we look at other evasive shrouders, we have Silhana Ledgewalker, Ascended Lawmage, and Thalakos Mistfolk (kinda). everything else seems too weak, imo.
I was also very interested in swapping Oona's Grace with Looter il-Kor in my MUC deck. He proved to be an even better card than Oona's, but the fact that it attracts removal immediately was its' downfall. Some commons are just extremely powerful, and that looter is one of them.
I think, were I to include a damage-based win condition, I would go for Thalakos Mistfolk. Not only is it basically unblockable, it stops itself from being killed by removal, and doubles as a means to prevent yourself from decking (which is not negligible in some circumstances). The fact that it's Richard Kane Ferguson artwork is icing on the cake.
I do believe I've taken the thread to the janky side... My apologies. Trying to innovate!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Don't laugh, it's actually a pretty good idea, especially with the 4x Scepter plan. You tutor for the singleton SB Incinerate, imprint it on the scepter, and protect the scepter with counters until you get there. Who needs red mana? I probably wouldn't recommend this for a pauper meta, but some of my opponents run Eldrazi and I cannot win then - in fact, I'm also thinking about diversifying my fog base to include attack phase skippers so I can at least have a shot at game 1. Unfortunately there are none at 2 mana so I can't tutor for them.
Another thing I'm finding is that the whole "every one draws so I can mill faster" plan is not so good in diversified metas. As has already been discovered in this thread, those draw spells are so bad that you're better off boarding them out than the mists against Burn! I'm aiming for a main deck that can actually be decent post board against decks that are:
A) Immune to mill, or
B) Not hampered by fogs, or
C) Benefit too much from mass card draw, or
D) (worst of all) a combination of the above
I think this can be achieved with a Bant build, but it will probably entail a slower main deck mill speed. The good news is, you're not under as much pressure to mill quickly in peasant. Either the opponent can escape the scepter or constant mists lock, or he can't. OTOH, if some of his cards are actually useful, it makes more sense to send a greater proportion of them directly to the grave without him ever drawing them - even if it takes more turns doing so, you'll take less damage overall.
I'm thinking about cutting the Skeins for more diverse fogs and answers. I'm also re-considering more drastically if the massive draw is really needed in Peasant. Since it's more about finding a permanent solution in scepter or mists, I wonder if dig isn't more important (hello Impulse). Brainstorm on a Scepter is more than enough to power Jace's Erasure anyway, and does a better job of it than the occasional words/skeins. It's also pretty easy to assemble a couple of erasures and a Brainstorm on your second scepter once you go into the end game. And it ends pretty quickly after that. Plus, you never need to worry about boarding out words/skeins where it's bad, but can focus on the erasures and fogs if they are the problem and still have a very good draw package to find your SB cards. Again, not something I'd recommend for pauper, but scepter changes things.
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Adding big digging spells sounds like a great idea. Impulse, Preordain, Ponder, etc. To help you find pieces. Accumulated Knowledge also gets better here. Who knows, maybe the milling plan can go altogether and you can find a better way to win. The sceptre changes everything.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Here's another shot at a Bant peasant list with sideboard:
8 Island
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Bant Panorama
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
FOGS (13)
4 Moment's Peace
4 Dawn Charm
3 Moment of Silence
1 Respite
1 Constant Mists
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Isochron Scepter
MILL (4)
4 Jace's Erasure
COUNTERS (7)
4 Counterspell
3 Muddle the Mixture
TOOLBOX (3)
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Gilded Light
4 Negate
1 Muddle the Mixture
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Last Breath
1 Incinerate
With 12 possible counters to protect it, I think the Incinerate-on-a-stick plan against Eldrazi etc. is solid. A couple of mistfolk could be included in the SB too (very fitting in a foggy world!) if it doesn't suffice.
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I like how you incorporated the Silences.
Keep in mind Impulse does not make you draw a card, it places it in your hand. It doesn't interact at all with Jace's Erasure, unfortunately.
I'm curious as to why you kept Last Breath over Celestial Flare in your deck. Neither of these cards deals with all the threats you could possibly face (Lavamancer vs Eldrazi, etc.), which puts you into an awkward position as to which to choose. Even if it can't be imprinted, wouldn't Journey to Nowhere better a better answer to all threats?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Game 1 - Monoblack. 2 - 0.
Was an easy game. Opponent used sign in blood 3 times each game, I was able to counter Corrupt and fog all the game. Many erasures quickly. I haven't used sideboard
Game 2 - Monoblack Devotion. 0 - 2.
Cuombajj Witches won both games. Too much damage from them. I was not able to counter Gray Merchant of Asphodel and I lost game 2 because I left an Terramorphic to use with brainstorm... but at brainstorm I had enough cards to win... 3 erasures, brainstorm milled 9... then I had Vision skeins and Compulsive Research... but 4 lands and a terramorphic... Tried to use Compulsive Research trying to find another brainstorm but failed... with 3 cards left, the opponent won... Thinking in replace terramorphic (2 or 3 of them - I'm using 6 - for Bant Panorama)
I could went to game 3...
Game 3 - Delver. 0 - 2
Delver of Secrets in play, with some 1/1 faeries and many fogs... opponent tried to counter some of them, and after some success he won. The same on game 2... I played very bad at this game, many mistakes with mana usage, fog usage... and entered in some unnecessary "counterspell war"
Game 4 - Tron. 0 - 2
This was the worst match... game 1 I was close... but many Memory Lapse and bounces on Erasures got time enough to cast Ulamog... I used Moment of Silence 2 times, but after that he used some counters on other fogs and won...
Game 2 much more counters and bounces.... Erasure's were not in play, as he used lots of Echoing truth. Went to 5 final turns after 50 min, with 2 dawn charms in hand, I played 2 Oblivion rings on 2 creatures in play... but left no W mana to use Dawn Charm... and lost to a topdeck Rolling Thunder on the last turn...
The Bant version seems much more reliable, but I need to do some more training and play on a better day... I went 3-1, should be at least 2-1-1 without the mistakes...
Also, I'll think on Bant Panorama, as I can left it in game to brainstorm and generate mana...
Yeah, I figure Brainstorm is enough if you want your second (or even third!) stick to power Erasure. I thought about having a tutor target at the 2 CMC level for that purpose too, but I figured I'd just rather grab another Erasure in that case (or scepter, if I have Brainstorm).
I already run a Journey in the main as a catch-all. I found Celestial Flare wasn't really useful because I don't want eldrazi to attack at all, and I don't really care about big dudes that simply attack anyway. Against eldrazi, top prio is to get Silence on a stick and second prio is Incinerate on the next stick. That and countering enablers like Show and Tell of course. Journey suffices against decks that run a few big threats that can ignore fogs (like Jin Gitaxias), whereas repetitive killing with an instant on a stick is mostly of interest against decks that churn out utility weenies and often abuse them from the grave (Nic Fit etc). Last Breath is perfect against those.
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I'm so sorry for the late reply, I must have missed these updates somehow!
Really too bad about your performance. You had some really tough matches. Delver is extremely difficult to play correctly. You're correct in thinking that getting into counter wars must be carefully evaluated. Getting all your land drops is extremely important in this matchup.
Against MBC, I think your deck would benefit from Circle of Protection: Black. Boarding out a few fogs for a few more counters and a Circle would be pretty good. How were you boarding against these black decks?
Urdjur,
Thanks for explaining those card choices. It actually makes a lot of sense. Have had the chance to test those changes again? Do you find that the Erasures have lost a bit of their power without our powerful draw engine?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Now for an odd question: If you would design a portfolio of 3-4 peasant decks (legacy banlist) to go up against a varied, non-pauper meta, and you had this as a broad anti-aggro option, what would your other deck picks be? I know I want Burn, because I have all the cards already and because it has a good shot against this deck too (for when I practice with this deck against the missus ;). I was thinking I wanted something anti-combo/anti-graveyard and maybe Delver or Dimir Post or UB Trinkets could be a good starting point? I also think I want some silly hyper aggro like Affinity with plating or Infect with Invigorate. Combo is also a consideration, but I have no good options I think. My friend has a sac lands tendrils deck so I don't want to go storm, and I already run a mono blue Peregrine Drake list in pauper EDH so I don't want high tide/cloud of faeries combo either. Midnight/Presence or Axebane Guardian seem to weak, correct? I could defend such a pick though if it was ALSO anti-combo/anti-graveyard and filled a niche that Turbo Fog couldn't hope to fill. (That's a rather strong statement though - I find the Bant list has game against almost anything, it's amazing it hasn't made more of an impact on the small peasant scene that after all exists).
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So, you have Burn and you have Turbo Fog. If you want something anti-combo, I think you're going to want something Blue and/or Black, but not necessarily the decks you mentioned, as they are too slow to deal with fast Legacy combo decks. I think that if you built just a straight-up UB deck with Duress and other 1-mana discard, coupled with good countermagic, gravehate and a solid win condition (sounds like a home for Prescient Chimera or Benthic Giant), than you could have a playable deck.
A friend of mine plays an awesome Legacy deck that is built almost exclusively out of commons and uncommons. It runs on maindeck graveyard hate and Web of Inertia. He uses the powerful Rogue tribe to abuse Looter Il-Kor, Merrow Bonegnawer, Triton Shorestalker and Oona's Blackguard coupled with Phyrexian Furnace and Relic of Progenitus. It simultaneously locks out graveyard decks, creature decks and combo decks, and wins very decisively via hard-to-block creatures. I'm certain it can be ported to Peasant very effectively.
Aside from that, I think your best bet for combo is Infect. The fastest gun in the west, it competes for turn 2 kills with many Legacy decks.
If you want to know more about those archetypes or about UB decks, I would consider looking at the primer section or creating your own thread for help, as this is a bit off topic here!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I don't really plan on casting a second one, but I do think 2 is the right number for consistency. Goldfishing a bit, it is GREAT at just refilling your hand for almost no mana at all when you're running low on fogs or counters. Drawing both in one game is very rare, and if it happens you can often shuffle it away with Brainstorm. Ideally, I'd like to play 3 Impulse and 2 Treasure Cruise, but that would mean cutting a business spell... or maybe a land, which could actually be doable given the increase in draw power. I shall consider it.
Thanks for the input on the decks. I decided to go with Infect as you suggested, and a modified MBA list as well. No comments on them so far. Would be very happy if you'd check out the infect thread and my new thread on an "anti combo niche deck" in the main forum. Comments on my burn list (in the primer thread) are welcome too Cheers!
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Glad I could help! I'll definitely be checking out your posts very soon!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
8 Island
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Bant Panorama
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Terramorphic Expanse
FOGS (13)
4 Moment's Peace
4 Dawn Charm
3 Moment of Silence
1 Respite
1 Constant Mists
4 Brainstorm
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Impulse
2 Treasure Cruise
MILL (4)
4 Jace's Erasure
COUNTERS (7)
4 Counterspell
3 Muddle the Mixture
TOOLBOX (3)
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Gilded Light
4 Negate
1 Muddle the Mixture
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Last Breath
1 Incinerate
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I had not thought of the Scepter that way, but it's absolutely true. Playing a Panorama early on doesn't matter at all if you have scepter up and running. That's great synergy. Time and testing will tell whether cutting that 21st land was the best call, though. I would have thought of cutting an Impulse before a land, I think. Are two Treasure Cruises really the best? I would have played around between 1-2 in the deck to see how they fit. Sometimes digging a card deeper is better than straight out drawing 3, for example (especially at instant speed).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Actually the card I'm the least happy with right now is Gilded Light. The problem with it is that it's not really the combo silver bullet I was hoping for. I can't tap out against combo, so this means tutoring for it on t5 at the earliest. Similarly, imprinting it is turn 4 at the earliest, and then I need it in hand which is unlikely. It's like a bad Impulse most games, TBH. The way game 1 against combo plays out is that I sit with UU open until ***** goes down (he plays a tutor or something like Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames). Any turn he doesn't try to pull something is a turn I can play an instant speed hand sculpting spell instead to get at least 2 counters so he can't kill me with Duress. If I get to 4 mana and can imprint a counter, that is usually the game.
I cut 1 Impulse and 1 net land (actually gaining an extra blue source doing so) for the 2 cruises. Right now I'm thinking I should put back the 4th Impulse over Gilded Light. Or maybe an extra island?
As requested, here's a small mini-primer for the Bant Peasant version:
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Thank you so much for your permission and mini-primer! It has been included into the main Primer.
EDIT: I've given the Primer a very significant face-lift, notably in the "Building the Deck" section. Check it out and tell me what you think!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I'm currently building my own Fog Deck.
I'll be listing the cards I find in the local stores around my area. Can you give me some alternatives for the hard to find cards like Words of Wisdom.
Thanks
These are the cards I got earlier today.
2 Seat of the Synod
4 Lonely Sandbar
4 Island
10 Forest
Fog
4 Fog
2 Respite
2 Spore Cloud
4 Lull
2 Spore Frog
1 Moment's Peace
4 Vision Skeins
2 Treasure Cruise
Mill
4 Jace's Erasure
2 Shriekhorn
Enchant
3 Quiet Disrepair
I'd appreciate the feedback on what to buy next. Thanks
U Delver