Proliferate has very interesting interactions with sagas. Such as activating my oppoants 3rd chapter of History of Benalia during my second main phase, activating chapter 3 on flames of keld right after I draw cards from my 2nd chapter. I think there will be many more feel bads for new players when an oppoanat moves their Sagas up, New players do not like an opponant making choices for them. There is the wonders of proliferate with all the planeswalkers but I worry about unexpected interactions with saga's as they were not nade expecting someone to trigger multiple chapters in one turn. Also interactions with the adapt crestures that have triggers when counters are added all fain from this. Does anyone else have concerns that play develppment not give complete testing all the sagas, adapt triggers, and other counter related cards like Simic Ascendency,which could lead to a possible break for standard?
I'm sure Simic Ascendancy was tested with proliferate. That card and mechanic were printed in back to back sets. Twenty counters is a big number even when you've got an engine going so while proliferate makes the card better, you still have to get it going and it's still fringe; with five creatures out, for example, if you get a +1/+1 counter on each of them, you still need to proliferate three times (5 --> 11 --> 17 --> 23).
And I'm astounded that anyone could really believe cross-block synergy is a bad thing that Play Design needs to prevent.
Sure you can use it to make the 3rd chapter of History useless, but how many sagas are actually going to be made useless that way? And even in that one case the opponent still got two 2/2 Knights for 3 mana which is above rate.
Well some of the sagas are pushed or nearly pushed, therefore proliferate might be enough to push them over that edge to overpower. A red deck being able to power out flames of keld could conceivably be a mistake, being able to add more than 4 counters to runaway steankin could produce unintended consequences. Mentor was not pushed to be tier 1 constructed but proliferate could tip the balance there. The flip artifacts like treaure map are in a similar place. All I am saying is that the play design team has limited time to test all these interactions its possible for one to slip through the cracks, even just speeding up The Mirari Conjecture could be significant.
It doesn't remove counters. It adds them, therefore you couldn't go from 2 to 3 in the same turn. You can go to 1 from 2 or 3 to 2 at end of turn, then reuse 1 or 2.
It doesn't remove counters. It adds them, therefore you couldn't go from 2 to 3 in the same turn. You can go to 1 from 2 or 3 to 2 at end of turn, then reuse 1 or 2.
I think you have a typo there? You won't be able to go from 3 to 2 at the end of the turn. The Saga is sacrificed once the third ability leaves the stack as a state based action immediately after the draw step.
Savannah Lion, what I meant was after chapter 2 happens if you proliferate you would get chapter 2 again. I worded it wrong.
Are you sure? I’m 99.44% positive that the next chapter triggers whenever a lore counter is put on a Saga, regardless of then it’s put on there, and that doing so will not and cannot trigger the same chapter more than once.
The way the Sagas work is that whenever a counter is place on it, the appropriate Chapter ability (or abilities) triggers. This is determined by looking at how many counters it had before getting a counter on it and then how many it has after. So, if you go from 0 counters to 2 both ability 1 and 2 go on the stack at that time. If you go from 1 to 3, both 2 and 3 will trigger. This means that there is no way to repeat a chapter ability without first removing counters. The relevant rule is:
714.2b. "{rN}--[Effect]" means "When one or more lore counters are put onto this Saga, if the number of lore counters on it was less than N and became at least N, [effect]."
Okay, ignore my comments above as I have lost the ability to read cards correctly. I always thought you counted down a Saga, but you do indeed count up.
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And I'm astounded that anyone could really believe cross-block synergy is a bad thing that Play Design needs to prevent.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
I think you have a typo there? You won't be able to go from 3 to 2 at the end of the turn. The Saga is sacrificed once the third ability leaves the stack as a state based action immediately after the draw step.
Are you sure? I’m 99.44% positive that the next chapter triggers whenever a lore counter is put on a Saga, regardless of then it’s put on there, and that doing so will not and cannot trigger the same chapter more than once.