It seems like there are two builds to consider. One is basically Kiln Fiend, the other is basically Delver.
I think Drake works better in a Delver-style build, but our counter magic is so bad and our sweepers aren't great. Are you in white for Fumigate? If not, what do you use to clean up the early, low grade threats that you can't counter in the early turns?
Spot burn stuff early and usually often and counter when possible with censor. Sweltering Suns also cleans up a lot of the early stuff against aggro. It's kind of like playing control until turn 4 then it switches into a tempo deck.
As for current builds, lately i've been loving the temur build, although I agree it needs a better answer to tokens than sweltering suns. Green for Blossom and grapple is the main reason to run it, although it opens up mana fixing as well.
I'm going to try to make a more cycle based deck in Grixis. Vile Manifestation looks really great in this type of deck. Cycle instants and sorceries to pump this guy and Enigma Drake and make Cryptic Serpent easier to cost. You can play effects like Collective Brutality and have access to great kill spells like Unlicensed Disintegration. The new cycling counter is great in this type of shell too. I am a little worried about mana, but we have 2 cycling lands in the colors. I think we ignore Aether Hub and Harnessed Lightning and run Abrade and Cut//Ribbons instead. I am itching to brew it up! I think it could be pretty close to a Grixis Delver type build!
Bloodwater is kind of a non combo for our grave strategy, but we only need about 4 spells to really be cooking with gas so buying back a cheap counter or burn spell and replaying it is nice. We also got Unsummon, which you could combo with it to have a blocker/hard to kill threat over and over. Not great, but it is doable. Prowess and flying can't be underestimated either.
Abrade is really flexible, taking down early creatures, dynavolt towers, vehicles, or a Gearhulk is so damn good.
Wildfire Eternal ain't shabby either. Crash Through is a solid cantrip that works really well with Drake, Serpent and even Fumarole but I have no idea what I would cut. Maybe a land or two and go to 20 land with something like nine 1 Mana cantrips including our cycling cards? Risky, but might be fun
I forgot about Unsummon. That should find a spot in this archetype as well as it can remove a creature regardless of its size for a single mana (temporarily)
I think this deck gets a LOT of nice goodies and I cant wait to try them out
Does anyone else think that Riddleform could slot into a more aggressive version of this strategy? When turned on it's a respectable flying body that will dodge our own Sweltering Suns just like Drake and blanks sorcery speed removal just like a vehicle. It also has the upside of letting us scry on our opponent's EOT if we go into draw-go mode.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
Does anyone else think that Riddleform could slot into a more aggressive version of this strategy? When turned on it's a respectable flying body that will dodge our own Sweltering Suns just like Drake and blanks sorcery speed removal just like a vehicle. It also has the upside of letting us scry on our opponent's EOT if we go into draw-go mode.
I actually like that quite a bit. I think that I would build an all-in version with Enigma Drake, Cryptic Serpent and Goblin Dark Dwellers, where spells matter and you have maximum synergy.
Unsummon is really good here, and any of the cheap prowess creatures or the new archer would also be good. I like that you can trigger prowess or a Riddleform with another Riddleform. It's not perfect, but it's a solid 2 drop with a lot of upsides.
After lots of testing I think the best HoU cards for us are Strategic Planning and Unsummon, Unsummon gives us a cheap and efficient way to deal with indestructible creatures like the gods, albeit only for a turn but that may often be enough for us to squeeze our damage through.
Does anyone else think that Riddleform could slot into a more aggressive version of this strategy? When turned on it's a respectable flying body that will dodge our own Sweltering Suns just like Drake and blanks sorcery speed removal just like a vehicle. It also has the upside of letting us scry on our opponent's EOT if we go into draw-go mode.
I actually like that quite a bit. I think that I would build an all-in version with Enigma Drake, Cryptic Serpent and Goblin Dark Dwellers, where spells matter and you have maximum synergy.
You have a list in mind? It's a very attractive idea. There's so many thing to try out in HOU that I really am considering going grixis but more of a control drake haven shell
After lots of testing I think the best HoU cards for us are Strategic Planning and Unsummon, Unsummon gives us a cheap and efficient way to deal with indestructible creatures like the gods, albeit only for a turn but that may often be enough for us to squeeze our damage through.
Is Strategic Planning better than Cathartic Reunion? I went to 1 cathartic and 2 anticipate because i wanted more instants. How many Unsummon did you find to be the right amount?
Also, has anyone tried Revolutionary Rebuff? Yes it is conditional, but it is also flexible enough to protect our threats or stop a creature. I keep being disappointed by Negate and Essence Scatter, as I almost always get ran over by creatures when i have Negate, and a ton of removal and planeswalkers when I have scatter... I'm sure i'll run into an artifact deck first time I try to run it though lol.
Update: Revolutionary Rebuff was really good for me, giving me 6 2 Mana counters for on curve problem cards and no one played around it like they would with Censor. I picked up some Fevered Visions for the sideboard that wrecked control and combo nicely with Kefnet keeping my hand full and providing consistent damage. I finally got my hands on Pull from tomorrow and will try those in the Anticipate spot, early it is worse, but I'm hoping the raw power later will be better.
Edit2: With HoD I'm going to try Stormchaser Mage and Riddleform and just try to be as fast as possible.
Edit3: Sand Strangler was a beast at Pre-release, probably not for our deck, but food for thought if you want to try out some desert stuff.
The cycling combo deck is nearly unwinnable without a bunch of neagate in hand to stop the enchantment.
My only match loss was to Aetherworks, no surprise lol. The Curious Homunculus were stellar, coming down with counter backup fairly early and flipping the next turn provided a lot of pressure and drew removal for the bigger guys to come down safe, and if it didn't flip that turn they were a nice mana boost . The redundancy in most of the cards made me not really like Bedlam Reveler as much as I had hoped for and I'll probably go down to 1. Release the Gremlins was a bomb out of the side, being a sorcery, a body, and killing an artifact was such a huge tempo boost and I will go up to 3 copies. Having 7 burn spells that exile was fantastic and 7 that can go to the head when needed closed out games quickly from "safe" life totals. I was extremely pleased with how the deck played.
Your deck is the one I'm basing mine off of - looks really sweet! I was wondering what your thoughts are on Abrade and whether that changes anything in the board?
19 land is probably going to be a little lite, a couple of Crash Through in place of a cathartic and move a swelltering sun to the side to make the room. That would give you 9 one Mana draw spells to help dig you into your second or third land. The trample is super good for the drakes and serpents mid to late game for getting those last points in.
@Chromaticus: Hey, very cool! Hope the deck serves you well! I think Abrade should be at least a 3 of, it's a solid creature removal and artifact removal spell, the flexibility is just so good for our deck. I'll probably keep 1 Release the Gremlins because it's a pet card for me, it feels like a 3 or 4 for 1 in this deck most of the time.
The addition of Crash Through feels like it will push this deck up a notch, the extra one Mana draw spells let's us play a little less land and more spells, gets us to hit our graveyard numbers that much faster and then mid game giving our guys trample is icing on a very good cake.
Supreme Will is good, but I think a bit slow here, but it is worth testing. Countervailing Winds could be better for this deck because of how it plays out, it will almost always be more than 3 and can draw a card faster, its like a big Censor.
Turns 1-3 you cycle/kill/counter to fill your grave and keep stuff in control then drop a big ole Drake, Serpent or a Curious H that will flip soon after. Sometimes a turn 2 Curious H is more beneficial because it will make your turn 3 strong with the extra mana and hopefully flip on turn 4 followed by another threat to close out the game around turn 5 or 6 depending on the amount of burn you have seen.
I can see the skepticism over Crash Through, but I've found chump blockers to be annoying against Serpent and Curious H so trample is amazing. Think of it as R: Draw a card, add 1 power to your Enigma Drakes, make Serpents cost 1 less, Flip Curious H next turn, and then late game deal 3 or more damage to your opponent.
You can get a Serpent turn 3 in some cases: turn 1 cycle, turn 2 cathartic and discard 2 spells, turn 3 land and play Serpent(or cycle then play Serpent for UU). That sounds like you are throwing away a lot of cards, but you would still have 5 cards in hand! A similar line of play with Drake would result in a 4/4 drake on your third turn, given something like 3 burn spells over the 4th and 5th turns you can hit lethal on that 5th turn.
Granted, the above lines of play aren't very interactive, but you can hold up counters on the 4th turn and try to ride them to victory. Serpent is especially easy to protect since it blanks Fatal Push, Grasp of Darkness, and most burn. you can play it with 2 mana counter backup like Negate on turn 4 if you feel it is at risk.
Okay, I just saw an article by chris lansdell which uses Thing in the ice and Insult/injury and I must say it might be worth a shot. I mean if you can pull it off its almost game over with one hit. He also uses a full 4 of supreme will, but I think that is too much for a situational card, so was thinking maybe a 2-2 split with countervailing winds? Anyway here's what I plan to play during the first few fnms til I get a feel of what my local meta is.
The sideboard allows you to go a more controlling route should you run into heavy control especially since people will try to brake bolas in, but I think the deck is good in racing damage even before they get a chance to put him down.
Also how does everyone feel bout the cycling deserts? Are they good enough for the deck or not?
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Spot burn stuff early and usually often and counter when possible with censor. Sweltering Suns also cleans up a lot of the early stuff against aggro. It's kind of like playing control until turn 4 then it switches into a tempo deck.
Needs moar Delver.
running that x4 plus thermo alchemist x4 and enigma drake x4 as the core could make a very interesting deck.
As for current builds, lately i've been loving the temur build, although I agree it needs a better answer to tokens than sweltering suns. Green for Blossom and grapple is the main reason to run it, although it opens up mana fixing as well.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I do agree that Strategic Planning seems great for this deck, definitely better than anticipate although instant speed will be missed.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Bloodwater is kind of a non combo for our grave strategy, but we only need about 4 spells to really be cooking with gas so buying back a cheap counter or burn spell and replaying it is nice. We also got Unsummon, which you could combo with it to have a blocker/hard to kill threat over and over. Not great, but it is doable. Prowess and flying can't be underestimated either.
Abrade is really flexible, taking down early creatures, dynavolt towers, vehicles, or a Gearhulk is so damn good.
Wildfire Eternal ain't shabby either.
Crash Through is a solid cantrip that works really well with Drake, Serpent and even Fumarole but I have no idea what I would cut. Maybe a land or two and go to 20 land with something like nine 1 Mana cantrips including our cycling cards? Risky, but might be fun
Needs moar Delver.
I think this deck gets a LOT of nice goodies and I cant wait to try them out
-Chandra Nalaar
I actually like that quite a bit. I think that I would build an all-in version with Enigma Drake, Cryptic Serpent and Goblin Dark Dwellers, where spells matter and you have maximum synergy.
Needs moar Delver.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
C Long Live Eldrazi C
You have a list in mind? It's a very attractive idea. There's so many thing to try out in HOU that I really am considering going grixis but more of a control drake haven shell
Is Strategic Planning better than Cathartic Reunion? I went to 1 cathartic and 2 anticipate because i wanted more instants. How many Unsummon did you find to be the right amount?
Also, has anyone tried Revolutionary Rebuff? Yes it is conditional, but it is also flexible enough to protect our threats or stop a creature. I keep being disappointed by Negate and Essence Scatter, as I almost always get ran over by creatures when i have Negate, and a ton of removal and planeswalkers when I have scatter... I'm sure i'll run into an artifact deck first time I try to run it though lol.
Update: Revolutionary Rebuff was really good for me, giving me 6 2 Mana counters for on curve problem cards and no one played around it like they would with Censor. I picked up some Fevered Visions for the sideboard that wrecked control and combo nicely with Kefnet keeping my hand full and providing consistent damage. I finally got my hands on Pull from tomorrow and will try those in the Anticipate spot, early it is worse, but I'm hoping the raw power later will be better.
Edit2: With HoD I'm going to try Stormchaser Mage and Riddleform and just try to be as fast as possible.
Edit3: Sand Strangler was a beast at Pre-release, probably not for our deck, but food for thought if you want to try out some desert stuff.
The cycling combo deck is nearly unwinnable without a bunch of neagate in hand to stop the enchantment.
Needs moar Delver.
4 Cryptic Serpent
3 Curious Homunculus
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Negate
3 Hieroglyphic Illumination
2 Cathartic Reunion
3 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
3 Shock
3 Sweltering Suns
1 Insult
The sideboard is directly from one of you guys - this will be my first for at into standard, so I have no idea what to expect in my meta.
Thanks to everyone, and any suggestions on numbers / card choices would be much appreciated.
Your deck is the one I'm basing mine off of - looks really sweet! I was wondering what your thoughts are on Abrade and whether that changes anything in the board?
Cheers!
@Chromaticus: Hey, very cool! Hope the deck serves you well! I think Abrade should be at least a 3 of, it's a solid creature removal and artifact removal spell, the flexibility is just so good for our deck. I'll probably keep 1 Release the Gremlins because it's a pet card for me, it feels like a 3 or 4 for 1 in this deck most of the time.
The addition of Crash Through feels like it will push this deck up a notch, the extra one Mana draw spells let's us play a little less land and more spells, gets us to hit our graveyard numbers that much faster and then mid game giving our guys trample is icing on a very good cake.
Needs moar Delver.
I have seen articles raving about the card, and was curious if anyone had given them a shot.
The Crash Through seem silly to me having not played the deck. What do turns one and two look like for us - cycle, double cycle / answer?
Turns 1-3 you cycle/kill/counter to fill your grave and keep stuff in control then drop a big ole Drake, Serpent or a Curious H that will flip soon after. Sometimes a turn 2 Curious H is more beneficial because it will make your turn 3 strong with the extra mana and hopefully flip on turn 4 followed by another threat to close out the game around turn 5 or 6 depending on the amount of burn you have seen.
I can see the skepticism over Crash Through, but I've found chump blockers to be annoying against Serpent and Curious H so trample is amazing. Think of it as R: Draw a card, add 1 power to your Enigma Drakes, make Serpents cost 1 less, Flip Curious H next turn, and then late game deal 3 or more damage to your opponent.
Needs moar Delver.
Thanks for the play by play - so turn 4 is more of the payoff vs turn 3. I was wondering about getting my serpents / revelers down.
P.S. Flipped Humonculous into Insult / Injury is absolutely beautiful.
Granted, the above lines of play aren't very interactive, but you can hold up counters on the 4th turn and try to ride them to victory. Serpent is especially easy to protect since it blanks Fatal Push, Grasp of Darkness, and most burn. you can play it with 2 mana counter backup like Negate on turn 4 if you feel it is at risk.
Needs moar Delver.
Needs moar Delver.
Needs moar Delver.
2 wandering fumarole
2 highland lake
1 ramunap ruins
6 island
5 mountain
2 bedlam reveller
4 enigma drake
4 cryptic serpent
4 thing in the ice
2 insult/injury
4 censor
4 hieroglyphic illumination
2 supreme will
2 countervailing winds
3 abrade
2 incendiary flow
2 magma spray
3 sweltering suns
3 negate
2 dispel
2 magma spray
2 fevered visions
2 chandra, torch of defiance
2 jace's defeat
2 chandra's defeat
The sideboard allows you to go a more controlling route should you run into heavy control especially since people will try to brake bolas in, but I think the deck is good in racing damage even before they get a chance to put him down.
Also how does everyone feel bout the cycling deserts? Are they good enough for the deck or not?