The only Jeskai to top 8 the PT ran 1 Search, 0 Gateway. So, that's what all the bandwagoners will run to. Tyrant is way more dangerous than anything Jeskai has, save for Banefire. If anything, I'd go 2 Tower, 1 Field. Also, 26 with no early cantrip/draw is dangerous. This deck cannot miss land drop 1-5. You really want to make 6 so you can Teferi with hard counter backup. This would also lessen the impact of the colorless lands.
I forgot to mention in my earlier post, Specter loses to Plaguecrafter\Eldest Reborn also. The only answer they have to Tower is Trophy, which is usually a 2 of, that they can't recur.
I'm not going to count on everyone copying the same 75 and that single copy of Search will steal games without an answer. I checked competitive G/B lists for Plaguecrafter after losing to it randomly, there were zero. The Eldest Reborn is rare - using the PT as an example, there was only one copy between the top four G/B lists (sideboard included). If they adjust I will adjust, but they don't have much incentive to plan for Nightveil Predator. Next set those will just be Settle the Wreckage, naturally.
According to Frank Karsten's math 26 lands is 86% likely to have four lands on turn four and 72.3% for five on five. Going to 27 is only 88.3% and 76% respectively. Instead of gaining 2.3/3.7 percentage points of land drop consistency (and gaining a few % chance of flood) I made a conscious decision to fit answers for 2-3 Tyrants and 4 Phoenixes in my main. As I mentioned before, Tower alone is not an answer - in Esper you only have 5-6 removal spells that can kill a Tyrant (not including Teferi, but you'd rather not use the -3 cause you have to answer it eventually). Combine that with a bunch of planeswalkers and your Vraska's Contempts end up stretched pretty thin. I was factoring this in and couldn't really solve the puzzle until I saw Jeff Hoogland add Predator to a follower's Esper list while streaming. It overperformed for him and he's even adding them to his other U/B deck, it's been great for me too. If I wasn't worried about Search I would just run Towers but I think this is the best compromise if you want to keep two Fields.
I'm not going to count on everyone copying the same 75 and that single copy of Search will steal games without an answer. I checked competitive G/B lists for Plaguecrafter after losing to it randomly, there were zero. The Eldest Reborn is rare - using the PT as an example, there was only one copy between the top four G/B lists (sideboard included). If they adjust I will adjust, but they don't have much incentive to plan for Nightveil Predator. Next set those will just be Settle the Wreckage, naturally.
According to Frank Karsten's math 26 lands is 86% likely to have four lands on turn four and 72.3% for five on five. Going to 27 is only 88.3% and 76% respectively. Instead of gaining 2.3/3.7 percentage points of land drop consistency (and gaining a few % chance of flood) I made a conscious decision to fit answers for 2-3 Tyrants and 4 Phoenixes in my main. As I mentioned before, Tower alone is not an answer - in Esper you only have 5-6 removal spells that can kill a Tyrant (not including Teferi, but you'd rather not use the -3 cause you have to answer it eventually). Combine that with a bunch of planeswalkers and your Vraska's Contempts end up stretched pretty thin. I was factoring this in and couldn't really solve the puzzle until I saw Jeff Hoogland add Predator to a follower's Esper list while streaming. It overperformed for him and he's even adding them to his other U/B deck, it's been great for me too. If I wasn't worried about Search I would just run Towers but I think this is the best compromise if you want to keep two Fields.
Sounds like you've never had the match where you have to deal with the same Tyrant 3 times. I have...
There's also the 4+ trample you take, but if it works for you, cool.
This is going to sound blasphemous, but I think Teferi, Hero of Dominaria isn't that good in current Standard.
Tis' Blasphemy! Haha, I actually think that Teferi is now a known factor and most decks are built to address the inherent power he has as a card. I will say that the success of the White Weenie decks in the Pro Tour is a direct reflection of how a certain segment of players decided to beat Teferi: go underneath him. The power of White Weenie, at least for this Pro Tour, is that it seemed like everyone was NOT maindecking enough Wrath/Early Removal effects to effectively keep the White Weenie matchup under control. My current Jeskai Build does VERY well against any type of Weenie rush deck because I've been playing 3 Deafening Clarion/ 2 Settle the Wreckage/ 2 Cleansing Nova. And I've actually been playing this configuration of mass removal for about 2 weeks now. While I have a lot of dead slots against Control matchups, I find that I have a lot of success against Aggro decks and more Mid-Range strategies.
So, I think what I'm trying to say is that Teferi is inherently good. He's so powerful, in fact, that I believe he warped the types of decks that were being successfully played by the Pro Players. White Weenie has a great matchup against Golgari (without maindeck [CARD]Ritual of Soot[CARD]s) and variants of Teferi control (without the heavy sweeper count). I've been adjusting all of my Control lists to have higher levels of mainboard spot and mass removal in order to combat the Aggro decks and I've been having decent success.
No, Teferi isn't dead. He simply needs to be supported better after what current tournaments are showing. There was a copy of Jeskai Control in the Top 8 of the Pro Tour, so I think that demonstrates the fact that Teferi Control decks are still strong and viable options when built correctly.
The only Jeskai to top 8 the PT ran 1 Search, 0 Gateway. So, that's what all the bandwagoners will run to. Tyrant is way more dangerous than anything Jeskai has, save for Banefire. If anything, I'd go 2 Tower, 1 Field. Also, 26 with no early cantrip/draw is dangerous. This deck cannot miss land drop 1-5. You really want to make 6 so you can Teferi with hard counter backup. This would also lessen the impact of the colorless lands.
I forgot to mention in my earlier post, Specter loses to Plaguecrafter\Eldest Reborn also. The only answer they have to Tower is Trophy, which is usually a 2 of, that they can't recur.
I'm not going to count on everyone copying the same 75 and that single copy of Search will steal games without an answer. I checked competitive G/B lists for Plaguecrafter after losing to it randomly, there were zero. The Eldest Reborn is rare - using the PT as an example, there was only one copy between the top four G/B lists (sideboard included). If they adjust I will adjust, but they don't have much incentive to plan for Nightveil Predator. Next set those will just be Settle the Wreckage, naturally.
According to Frank Karsten's math 26 lands is 86% likely to have four lands on turn four and 72.3% for five on five. Going to 27 is only 88.3% and 76% respectively. Instead of gaining 2.3/3.7 percentage points of land drop consistency (and gaining a few % chance of flood) I made a conscious decision to fit answers for 2-3 Tyrants and 4 Phoenixes in my main. As I mentioned before, Tower alone is not an answer - in Esper you only have 5-6 removal spells that can kill a Tyrant (not including Teferi, but you'd rather not use the -3 cause you have to answer it eventually). Combine that with a bunch of planeswalkers and your Vraska's Contempts end up stretched pretty thin. I was factoring this in and couldn't really solve the puzzle until I saw Jeff Hoogland add Predator to a follower's Esper list while streaming. It overperformed for him and he's even adding them to his other U/B deck, it's been great for me too. If I wasn't worried about Search I would just run Towers but I think this is the best compromise if you want to keep two Fields.
I'm not going to count on everyone copying the same 75 and that single copy of Search will steal games without an answer. I checked competitive G/B lists for Plaguecrafter after losing to it randomly, there were zero. The Eldest Reborn is rare - using the PT as an example, there was only one copy between the top four G/B lists (sideboard included). If they adjust I will adjust, but they don't have much incentive to plan for Nightveil Predator. Next set those will just be Settle the Wreckage, naturally.
According to Frank Karsten's math 26 lands is 86% likely to have four lands on turn four and 72.3% for five on five. Going to 27 is only 88.3% and 76% respectively. Instead of gaining 2.3/3.7 percentage points of land drop consistency (and gaining a few % chance of flood) I made a conscious decision to fit answers for 2-3 Tyrants and 4 Phoenixes in my main. As I mentioned before, Tower alone is not an answer - in Esper you only have 5-6 removal spells that can kill a Tyrant (not including Teferi, but you'd rather not use the -3 cause you have to answer it eventually). Combine that with a bunch of planeswalkers and your Vraska's Contempts end up stretched pretty thin. I was factoring this in and couldn't really solve the puzzle until I saw Jeff Hoogland add Predator to a follower's Esper list while streaming. It overperformed for him and he's even adding them to his other U/B deck, it's been great for me too. If I wasn't worried about Search I would just run Towers but I think this is the best compromise if you want to keep two Fields.
Sounds like you've never had the match where you have to deal with the same Tyrant 3 times. I have...
There's also the 4+ trample you take, but if it works for you, cool.
As I understand this dialogue, the question is how can we best handle the dreaded Carnage Tyrant. He's extremely powerful against Control decks and was probably printed to make sure that Control variants weren't/aren't too powerful at any given point because someone can just windmill slam the Dinosaur and win against a Control deck.
The best way that I've been handling good ol' Carny T is to play my own copies of him, up the number of The Eldest Reborn in my maindeck, and try to be judicious about when/how I play Discovery // Dispersal. The Dispersal side of that modal spell is actually very useful in combating the Tyrant. I've been able to at least buy a turn or two to try and find a better way to handle the Tyrant or execute my own win condition. I think I also run 1 copy of Detection Tower to give me an additional out to Carny T. Any game where my opponent plays a Carny T is automatically going to be close since Dimir colors don't have a hard sweeper like Settle the Wreckage or Cleansing Nova.
Hold up.
I just remembered, while writing this, about Phyrexian Scriptures. That card is actually pretty decent as a Wrath effect and the Exiling clause is very relevant as well with the Izzet Drakes deck seeing some recent success. I think this could be another good option to combat Carny T as well as shore up our removal weaknesses. Granted, there are going to be times where you cast the Scriptures on T4 and die before it comes back to you, but I think that the deck can be configured well enough to buy enough time for the Scriptures to go off. I'm going to try testing a 2/2 split of Phyrexian Scriptures/Ritual of Soot and see how it goes.
Of the 3 matches that I played on Arena today with my Sultai list I went 2-0, 2-0, and 2-1. The 2-1 match was against a UR Control deck that beat me G2 because I kept a 3-lander and didn't draw another land for 5 turns. Literally. I lost to Niv-Mizzet and felt a little salty, being a little taunting in G3 when I Thought Erasure'ed his hand into oblivion.
I never said Teferi is dead. The problem is that there are so many situations where dropping a Teferi doesn't really help. More often than not, you have to have already stabilized before you can drop it. It brings about a similar feeling of Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Modern They're uber powerful if you can get to the point where you can untap with it, but you have to get to that point! I've been playing other blue control builds with less copies of Teferi and more cantrips and control elements. It's been working really well so far.
@chaos21
My experience with Teferi has been much different. There are times where I play him into a board where I know he'll die or take damage in order to buy myself a turn or two and stabilize. There are other times when I have the board nice and clean and casting Teferi locks the game away. Either way, he's been very useful to me in advancing to a my win condition. In fact, I don't really view Teferi as a win condition moreso as a card advantage engine that can absorb some damage for me.
What kind of lists have you settled on? I've seen a couple of Control lists that seem to play the full 4 Opt. Are you in that camp?
EDIT: In other news, the 3 best of 3 games I played tonight with my Sultai list with the 2 Phyrexian Scriptures seems to be ok. The Scriptures actually open up interesting tempo windows for the deck, similar to what The Eldest Reborn does. I had one sequence where I cast a Scriptures into an opponent's semi-full board. I think it put them in an interesting position of basically time-walking themselves so that they don't lose more of their board to the Wrath that they can clearly see coming. I've observed that this usually forces my opponents to play off tempo and helps to buy me some time in order to stabilize. I think that there needs to be additional testing before I can conclusively say if the Scriptures can be included, but I've been evaluating it as a type of Cleansing Nova. And casting it after I've cast Carny T and making my Dinosaur a robot Dinosaur is just too cool. I am so enjoying this Standard format.
I am definitely on 4 Opt, but I'm playing Jeskai these days.
I've often debated about including Opt in the deck. Have your results been promising? I think it would allow us to keep 2 land hands and still Opt into gas in the late game.
In other news, after having played 10+ games of best of 3 matches with my Sultai list (I had 6/10 win ration during this time period) I can say that Phyrexian Scriptures is definitely worth playing as a Wrath effect. It kills pretty much everything on T5 except the value creature that you've played. But what has actually been the best part about the Scriptures is the mass exile of my opponents' yard. I was playing against several Golgari opponents where they drew into a Find // Finality AFTER I had exiled their yards. It felt good to leave them with dead cards in hand. It also has had random utility against a couple of Drake decks I played against, particularly against Enigma Drake. I feel like I can say that the Scriptures is definitely a 2 or 3 of in a maindeck. There have been times where it's been too late against White Weenie and other Golgari matches I played, so I think having a mix of Ritual of Soot and the scriptures is ideal.
What I wouldn't give to have a Mind Stone variant printed. Highly doubtful, but it would be fantastic to get a T3 Wrath effect down consistently every game.
My losses were once to Golgari, once to Bant Turbo Fog (I was totally unprepared for this matchup), once to a Jeskai Control, and once to a White Weenie loss. I beat Golgari twice, Drakes twice, Jeskai Control, and Dimir control.
I played a best of 3 match during my lunch break and I beat White Weenie 2-0.
Have any others been playing some UB/x COntrol variant?
I've been quite happy with my list. This deck plays magic the way I love to play magic (Well, almost. GB mirrors are miserable though). Honestly, I only put the second Teferi back in because I was told I was being ridiculous about my current disdain for Teferi (which is inaccurate). I just feel like this isn't the metagame for our hero. Also, Niv Mizzet has been straight up nuts! Even as a 1-of, it has ended games so quickly that I keep wondering why I don't have two of them in the main deck.
All of that aside, it's amazing how much of this Standard feels like you're playing Modern-level power.
I see a lot of people talking about dealing with tyrant but I play just straight u/b and rarely ever have an issue with it. In fact g/b in general seems like a fairly easy matchup. I play a surveil list and almost always easily out grind them.
I run 4x Eldest reborn in my list for that reason. Pretty much everything else in the golgari list gets hit by soot so if you're that far behind where reborn doesn't do it, you might not have gotten there anyway.
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Used to be on here as Draconek, since the Twitch takeover...who knows...
MTGO: Draconek
Standard: URW Control UB Control
Modern: BRG Living End GR Aggro GW Value
Legacy:
Currently not playing
After having played with Jeskai Control and comparing it to Sultai control, I really think that the deck needs the new Simic cards to drop to be comparable. Playing against opposing Niv's is pretty miserable from a Sultai perspective, especially since they're kind of waiting to simply Explosion you out too.
I think I'll be switching over to a Grixis list since The Eldest Reborn is really good against Jeskai right now.
Has anyone considered using Muldrotha, the Gravetide as a sultai control finisher? It might not have hexproof, but looping The Eldest Reborn is a powerful interaction.
I'd only run Sultai if we had fetch lands tbh. Green doesn't really have anything to add compared to other colors. Red is the best due to Nicol Bolas and some other cards usually assigned to sideboard. Assassin's Trophy is much more of a sideboard card because we have answers to most things in UB or UBR. The only problem is enchantments.
Bascically how I see it. URWJeskai: best control deck for creature matchups UBRGrixis: Good spread vs the field, can struggle with R aggro decks even despite Moment of Craving. Better than Jeskai in the control matchups UBDimir: Good overall spread, similar to Grixis, except has disadvantage vs Grixis in that matchup. UBWEsper: best in control matchups due to Teferi and Chromium, the Mutable, both of which are pretty much game over once resolved.
Has anyone considered using Muldrotha, the Gravetide as a sultai control finisher? It might not have hexproof, but looping The Eldest Reborn is a powerful interaction.
I'll give it a shot tonight. I've been running a discard version and using Doom Whisperer as a finisher, but I'm open to Muldothra. I have good potential targets with Memorial to Genius for land, Burglar Rat and Hostage Taker for creatures, Disinformation Campaign and The Eldest Reborn for enchantments, and Karn for a planeswalker. I also like that it works with Vivid Revival as I've been using that to gain massive card advantage.
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This is how the deck looks after playing Muldrotha this weekend. I swapped over to The Mirari Conjecture from Vivid Revival for its synergy with Muldothra and its ability to bring back non-multicolored cards. Besides the Muldothra recursion, some tricks I've used include Hostage Takering Burglar Rat for another discard and using Radical Idea's Jump-Start to put fuel in the graveyard for The Eldest Reborn.
Biggest deck I've had problems with is GW tokens. I'm trying out Vraska and a MB Reclamation Sage to answer their token-creating enchantments. Another concern in general is improving the deck clock; some decks are able to win off a topdeck. I'm going to experiment more with different threats here.
I've been playing Control variants for a while, fluctuating between Sultai, Grixis, and Jeskai. Jeskai has the best mix of spells to beat Creature based decks almost exclusively because of Deafening Clarion. Coming down on T3 is pretty big deal for Control right now.
That being said, I've come across a lot of situations where Ritual of Soot would be just as effective or even more effective than the Clarion. Hitting a grown Wildgrowth Walker is a signficant deal and hitting multiples of Benalish Marshal is good too. So, I've been swinging between some sort of Black Based Control deck or Jeskai.
The main problem as I see it is that there isn't a comparable CArd Advantage engine outside of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. He can hit any permanent type with his minus ability and being able to hold up 2 mana for a Seal Away or Negate is awesome. Ral, Izzet Viceroy is close but not quite there in power level.
@Pistallion
Since you're sticking to your guns with Grixis, does your list hover nearer the pure draw-go style of deck or is it more tap-out style? I will definitely agree that Thought Erasure in the mainboard gives a huge advantage over other Control and Mid-Range decks while also being able to set up your draw. In some instances, it feels like a [CARD}Thoughtseize[/CARD] + draw 0.5 card, which is awesome.
I want to play Niv-Mizzet, Parun in Grixis too because it ends games so quickly, but that might not be the correct call. I'm still brainstorming lists and keeping a close eye on the spoilers to see what the Simic and Rakdos guilds offer. The new Anguish seems like a solid supplement to Vraska's Contempt while being able to hold the torch for the Contempt after it rotates.
Conceptually, I like the UBx decks but they're slow and and have these weird fail rates because the cards in most lists don't have great crossover in trying to keep up with different decks. Cleansing Nova for example deals with artifacts and enchantments when necessary. That UBx decks have a crappy time dealing with enchantments is really the biggest issue though with Search for Azcanta, Conclave Tribunal, Ixalan's Binding and opposing The Eldest Reborn being out there in the wild in significant numbers.
I know Jeskai has its blind spots but I think they are far narrower than the ones Grixis has. Even Esper control seems better. It's just really clunky.
My list is classic draw go, but you tend to tap out a decent amount on turn 2 with thought erasure. You really want to play on your opponent's turn, and the only time you arent is either on turn 2 with thought erasure or whenever you are playing Bolas. Verix Bladewing looks like a cool idea that has been showing up more in the Dragons lists, but I might test it too. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370143#paper
this is my current list
Conceptually, I like the UBx decks but they're slow and and have these weird fail rates because the cards in most lists don't have great crossover in trying to keep up with different decks. Cleansing Nova for example deals with artifacts and enchantments when necessary. That UBx decks have a crappy time dealing with enchantments is really the biggest issue though with Search for Azcanta, Conclave Tribunal, Ixalan's Binding and opposing The Eldest Reborn being out there in the wild in significant numbers.
I know Jeskai has its blind spots but I think they are far narrower than the ones Grixis has. Even Esper control seems better. It's just really clunky.
Maybe I'm tilting because of the new Ranking system on MTG Arena (I f-ing hate best -of-1 games...), but it seems like I suit up Control that's configured to play against Aggro and then I see 3-4 straight matches of Mid-Range or Control with not an Aggro deck in sight. I wish there was a perfect mainboard that had G1 answers to everything, but that (is rightly) not the case currently. I admit that the Standard format is super diverse and balanced but the best-of-1 format is a feel bad situation.
But, to reply to your comment directly, I think you're right. Niv is just too powerful to pass up. Being able to draw cards off of the natural gameplan of a Control deck is super nice. His pinging ability helps to clear the battlefield and helps to stabilize the game. I hope that Grixis receives a few more cards from Rakdos (a reprint or variation of RAkdos's Return would be awesome). I've also really come to consider how powerful the new Haunt at Hightower could be. If you sequence your plays correctly and protect it with a [CARD}Thought Erasure[/CARD] or two, it could be a very powerful way to go over the top of Mid-Range decks. We'll see what the rest of the spoilers have before I start brewing again.
My list is classic draw go, but you tend to tap out a decent amount on turn 2 with thought erasure. You really want to play on your opponent's turn, and the only time you arent is either on turn 2 with thought erasure or whenever you are playing Bolas. Verix Bladewing looks like a cool idea that has been showing up more in the Dragons lists, but I might test it too. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370143#paper
this is my current list
It looks pretty decent. How does your Control matchup look? The lack of hard counters seems odd to me but the full count of Essence Scatter looks just right. You want to be eating Mid-Range decks G1 and then pivoting to a purer Control list G2 and G3 against opposing Control. I'll give it a spin and see how it goes on Arena!
Is anyone using Angrath? I'm grinding on Arena to try and get all the cards I need and I'm having a lot of success using him. Granted I'm playing BO1s. Playing Grixis btw.
I'm using a 1/1 split of him and Ral along with 2 Eldest and 2 Bolas as my wincons.
Yeah, I'm grinding a lot of BO1s on Arena with Grixis too. 2 x Bolas, 1 x Ral, 4 x Eldest Reborn, 1 x Doom Whisperer. Eldest Reborn is such a beating. A buddy of mine likened it to a Planeswalker and I think I agree with him. I'm running 2 x Search for Azcanta right now but I think I might go to three. I find that I really want it on T2. I don't have Angarath so I couldn't give you an intelligent comment about him.
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Some people like to win MtG matches in the Red Zone. I prefer to win the way God intended: on the stack.
I've been playing a new Esper Control list, and it's responsible for getting me into Diamond Tier 4 from Gold Tier 3 from games that I've played just this morning.
I've been doing Best of 1's obviously and this list has been really good for me. The one area I think it lacks is Card Draw, as I consistently find myself with 2-4 cards in hand at any given time.
One interesting thing I've noticed is that this current list does a FANTASTIC job of stabilizing its Life total. Between Kaya and the Consume half of Consecrate // Consume, I regularly end games with 15+ life, even against Mono-Red or other Aggro variants. It's a pretty great feeling. The number of games where a player conceded once I was able to establish Control of the game and let Kaya start exiling their 'yard was amazing to me; I think 5 of my matches ended that way. Kaya's lifegain is EXTREMELY helpful for the Control archetype and I've been extremely pleased with this list so far.
Anyways, just wanted to share the list that was working for me earlier this morning. I think I had a bit of luck as well this morning to advance as quickly as I did, so take that in mind if you give my list a go.
Nice list. How have you liked running Settle the Wreckage with Kaya's Wrath? I feel like those two cards didn't necessarily want to be in the same deck.
How 'fast' does it close out games? That's my current issue with control not running Niv/Drake. It just takes a long time to close out which gives your opp more time to come back. I'm trying to figure out a nice fast closer in Esper.
I'm not going to count on everyone copying the same 75 and that single copy of Search will steal games without an answer. I checked competitive G/B lists for Plaguecrafter after losing to it randomly, there were zero. The Eldest Reborn is rare - using the PT as an example, there was only one copy between the top four G/B lists (sideboard included). If they adjust I will adjust, but they don't have much incentive to plan for Nightveil Predator. Next set those will just be Settle the Wreckage, naturally.
According to Frank Karsten's math 26 lands is 86% likely to have four lands on turn four and 72.3% for five on five. Going to 27 is only 88.3% and 76% respectively. Instead of gaining 2.3/3.7 percentage points of land drop consistency (and gaining a few % chance of flood) I made a conscious decision to fit answers for 2-3 Tyrants and 4 Phoenixes in my main. As I mentioned before, Tower alone is not an answer - in Esper you only have 5-6 removal spells that can kill a Tyrant (not including Teferi, but you'd rather not use the -3 cause you have to answer it eventually). Combine that with a bunch of planeswalkers and your Vraska's Contempts end up stretched pretty thin. I was factoring this in and couldn't really solve the puzzle until I saw Jeff Hoogland add Predator to a follower's Esper list while streaming. It overperformed for him and he's even adding them to his other U/B deck, it's been great for me too. If I wasn't worried about Search I would just run Towers but I think this is the best compromise if you want to keep two Fields.
Esper Control
Sounds like you've never had the match where you have to deal with the same Tyrant 3 times. I have...
There's also the 4+ trample you take, but if it works for you, cool.
Tis' Blasphemy! Haha, I actually think that Teferi is now a known factor and most decks are built to address the inherent power he has as a card. I will say that the success of the White Weenie decks in the Pro Tour is a direct reflection of how a certain segment of players decided to beat Teferi: go underneath him. The power of White Weenie, at least for this Pro Tour, is that it seemed like everyone was NOT maindecking enough Wrath/Early Removal effects to effectively keep the White Weenie matchup under control. My current Jeskai Build does VERY well against any type of Weenie rush deck because I've been playing 3 Deafening Clarion/ 2 Settle the Wreckage/ 2 Cleansing Nova. And I've actually been playing this configuration of mass removal for about 2 weeks now. While I have a lot of dead slots against Control matchups, I find that I have a lot of success against Aggro decks and more Mid-Range strategies.
So, I think what I'm trying to say is that Teferi is inherently good. He's so powerful, in fact, that I believe he warped the types of decks that were being successfully played by the Pro Players. White Weenie has a great matchup against Golgari (without maindeck [CARD]Ritual of Soot[CARD]s) and variants of Teferi control (without the heavy sweeper count). I've been adjusting all of my Control lists to have higher levels of mainboard spot and mass removal in order to combat the Aggro decks and I've been having decent success.
No, Teferi isn't dead. He simply needs to be supported better after what current tournaments are showing. There was a copy of Jeskai Control in the Top 8 of the Pro Tour, so I think that demonstrates the fact that Teferi Control decks are still strong and viable options when built correctly.
As I understand this dialogue, the question is how can we best handle the dreaded Carnage Tyrant. He's extremely powerful against Control decks and was probably printed to make sure that Control variants weren't/aren't too powerful at any given point because someone can just windmill slam the Dinosaur and win against a Control deck.
The best way that I've been handling good ol' Carny T is to play my own copies of him, up the number of The Eldest Reborn in my maindeck, and try to be judicious about when/how I play Discovery // Dispersal. The Dispersal side of that modal spell is actually very useful in combating the Tyrant. I've been able to at least buy a turn or two to try and find a better way to handle the Tyrant or execute my own win condition. I think I also run 1 copy of Detection Tower to give me an additional out to Carny T. Any game where my opponent plays a Carny T is automatically going to be close since Dimir colors don't have a hard sweeper like Settle the Wreckage or Cleansing Nova.
Hold up.
I just remembered, while writing this, about Phyrexian Scriptures. That card is actually pretty decent as a Wrath effect and the Exiling clause is very relevant as well with the Izzet Drakes deck seeing some recent success. I think this could be another good option to combat Carny T as well as shore up our removal weaknesses. Granted, there are going to be times where you cast the Scriptures on T4 and die before it comes back to you, but I think that the deck can be configured well enough to buy enough time for the Scriptures to go off. I'm going to try testing a 2/2 split of Phyrexian Scriptures/Ritual of Soot and see how it goes.
Of the 3 matches that I played on Arena today with my Sultai list I went 2-0, 2-0, and 2-1. The 2-1 match was against a UR Control deck that beat me G2 because I kept a 3-lander and didn't draw another land for 5 turns. Literally. I lost to Niv-Mizzet and felt a little salty, being a little taunting in G3 when I Thought Erasure'ed his hand into oblivion.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
My experience with Teferi has been much different. There are times where I play him into a board where I know he'll die or take damage in order to buy myself a turn or two and stabilize. There are other times when I have the board nice and clean and casting Teferi locks the game away. Either way, he's been very useful to me in advancing to a my win condition. In fact, I don't really view Teferi as a win condition moreso as a card advantage engine that can absorb some damage for me.
What kind of lists have you settled on? I've seen a couple of Control lists that seem to play the full 4 Opt. Are you in that camp?
EDIT: In other news, the 3 best of 3 games I played tonight with my Sultai list with the 2 Phyrexian Scriptures seems to be ok. The Scriptures actually open up interesting tempo windows for the deck, similar to what The Eldest Reborn does. I had one sequence where I cast a Scriptures into an opponent's semi-full board. I think it put them in an interesting position of basically time-walking themselves so that they don't lose more of their board to the Wrath that they can clearly see coming. I've observed that this usually forces my opponents to play off tempo and helps to buy me some time in order to stabilize. I think that there needs to be additional testing before I can conclusively say if the Scriptures can be included, but I've been evaluating it as a type of Cleansing Nova. And casting it after I've cast Carny T and making my Dinosaur a robot Dinosaur is just too cool. I am so enjoying this Standard format.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I've often debated about including Opt in the deck. Have your results been promising? I think it would allow us to keep 2 land hands and still Opt into gas in the late game.
In other news, after having played 10+ games of best of 3 matches with my Sultai list (I had 6/10 win ration during this time period) I can say that Phyrexian Scriptures is definitely worth playing as a Wrath effect. It kills pretty much everything on T5 except the value creature that you've played. But what has actually been the best part about the Scriptures is the mass exile of my opponents' yard. I was playing against several Golgari opponents where they drew into a Find // Finality AFTER I had exiled their yards. It felt good to leave them with dead cards in hand. It also has had random utility against a couple of Drake decks I played against, particularly against Enigma Drake. I feel like I can say that the Scriptures is definitely a 2 or 3 of in a maindeck. There have been times where it's been too late against White Weenie and other Golgari matches I played, so I think having a mix of Ritual of Soot and the scriptures is ideal.
What I wouldn't give to have a Mind Stone variant printed. Highly doubtful, but it would be fantastic to get a T3 Wrath effect down consistently every game.
My losses were once to Golgari, once to Bant Turbo Fog (I was totally unprepared for this matchup), once to a Jeskai Control, and once to a White Weenie loss. I beat Golgari twice, Drakes twice, Jeskai Control, and Dimir control.
I played a best of 3 match during my lunch break and I beat White Weenie 2-0.
Have any others been playing some UB/x COntrol variant?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
3 Crackling Drake
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Instants (22)
4 Opt
3 Revitalize
3 Chemister's Insight
4 Syncopate
4 Sinister Sabotage
1 Ionize
1 Justice Strike
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Expansion // Explosion
1 Cleansing Nova
4 Deafening Clarion
Land (27)
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Clifftop Retreat
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
1 Lyra Dawnbringer
2 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Ixalan's Binding
1 Invoke the Divine
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Cleansing Nova
2 Lava Coil
2 Justice Strike
2 Negate
I've been quite happy with my list. This deck plays magic the way I love to play magic (Well, almost. GB mirrors are miserable though). Honestly, I only put the second Teferi back in because I was told I was being ridiculous about my current disdain for Teferi (which is inaccurate). I just feel like this isn't the metagame for our hero. Also, Niv Mizzet has been straight up nuts! Even as a 1-of, it has ended games so quickly that I keep wondering why I don't have two of them in the main deck.
All of that aside, it's amazing how much of this Standard feels like you're playing Modern-level power.
MTGO: Draconek
Standard:
URW Control
UB Control
Modern:
BRG Living End
GR Aggro
GW Value
Legacy:
Currently not playing
I think I'll be switching over to a Grixis list since The Eldest Reborn is really good against Jeskai right now.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm sticking to my guns and saying that Grixis is by far the best control archetype at least for the UB base. UB alone isn't good enough, and I even said weeks ago that Doom Whisperer is so overrated and Disinformation Campaign is not that great. Bolas is the real deal. It's really Nicol Bolas, the Ravager paired with The Eldest Reborn and Dream Eater.
The best card in the format is Teferi, Hero of Dominaria on a power level standpoint, but I think the best card, and most overlooked card for that matter, is Thought Erasure. It's the reason I picked Grixis in the first place. As for Esper and the W splash, Teferi isn't worth giving up the powerful synergy of Nicol Bolas, the Ravager, The Eldest Reborn and Dream Eater + the Thought Erasure & Duress (from the sideboard) package.
Bascically how I see it.
URWJeskai: best control deck for creature matchups
UBRGrixis: Good spread vs the field, can struggle with R aggro decks even despite Moment of Craving. Better than Jeskai in the control matchups
UBDimir: Good overall spread, similar to Grixis, except has disadvantage vs Grixis in that matchup.
UBWEsper: best in control matchups due to Teferi and Chromium, the Mutable, both of which are pretty much game over once resolved.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I'll give it a shot tonight. I've been running a discard version and using Doom Whisperer as a finisher, but I'm open to Muldothra. I have good potential targets with Memorial to Genius for land, Burglar Rat and Hostage Taker for creatures, Disinformation Campaign and The Eldest Reborn for enchantments, and Karn for a planeswalker. I also like that it works with Vivid Revival as I've been using that to gain massive card advantage.
___
3 Forest
6 Island
7 Swamp
2 Woodland Cemetery
4 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Memorial to Genius
|7 Creatures|
4 Burglar Rat
2 Hostage Taker
1 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Thought Erasure
3 Discovery // Dispersal
3 Ritual of Soot
4 Radical Idea
1 Golden Demise
2 Moment of Craving
3 Vraska's Contempt
|4 Enchantments|
3 The Eldest Reborn
1 The Mirari Conjecture
|4 Planeswalkers|
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
4 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Thief of Sanity
3 Status // Statue
This is how the deck looks after playing Muldrotha this weekend. I swapped over to The Mirari Conjecture from Vivid Revival for its synergy with Muldothra and its ability to bring back non-multicolored cards. Besides the Muldothra recursion, some tricks I've used include Hostage Takering Burglar Rat for another discard and using Radical Idea's Jump-Start to put fuel in the graveyard for The Eldest Reborn.
Biggest deck I've had problems with is GW tokens. I'm trying out Vraska and a MB Reclamation Sage to answer their token-creating enchantments. Another concern in general is improving the deck clock; some decks are able to win off a topdeck. I'm going to experiment more with different threats here.
That being said, I've come across a lot of situations where Ritual of Soot would be just as effective or even more effective than the Clarion. Hitting a grown Wildgrowth Walker is a signficant deal and hitting multiples of Benalish Marshal is good too. So, I've been swinging between some sort of Black Based Control deck or Jeskai.
The main problem as I see it is that there isn't a comparable CArd Advantage engine outside of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. He can hit any permanent type with his minus ability and being able to hold up 2 mana for a Seal Away or Negate is awesome. Ral, Izzet Viceroy is close but not quite there in power level.
@Pistallion
Since you're sticking to your guns with Grixis, does your list hover nearer the pure draw-go style of deck or is it more tap-out style? I will definitely agree that Thought Erasure in the mainboard gives a huge advantage over other Control and Mid-Range decks while also being able to set up your draw. In some instances, it feels like a [CARD}Thoughtseize[/CARD] + draw 0.5 card, which is awesome.
I want to play Niv-Mizzet, Parun in Grixis too because it ends games so quickly, but that might not be the correct call. I'm still brainstorming lists and keeping a close eye on the spoilers to see what the Simic and Rakdos guilds offer. The new Anguish seems like a solid supplement to Vraska's Contempt while being able to hold the torch for the Contempt after it rotates.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
If you stick with Grixis, I don't think you have an option on playing Niv-Mizzet, Parun realistically. It's the most concise way to close out games in those colors. Even a flipped Nicol Bolas, the Ravager is slower and just as susceptible to shenanigans. What else would there be? Sarkhan, Fireblood ultimate? Expansion // Explosion? Nezahal, Primal Tide? I'll pass on all of those for a Niv-Mizzet in conjuction the The Eldest Reborn.
I know Jeskai has its blind spots but I think they are far narrower than the ones Grixis has. Even Esper control seems better. It's just really clunky.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370143#paper
this is my current list
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Maybe I'm tilting because of the new Ranking system on MTG Arena (I f-ing hate best -of-1 games...), but it seems like I suit up Control that's configured to play against Aggro and then I see 3-4 straight matches of Mid-Range or Control with not an Aggro deck in sight. I wish there was a perfect mainboard that had G1 answers to everything, but that (is rightly) not the case currently. I admit that the Standard format is super diverse and balanced but the best-of-1 format is a feel bad situation.
But, to reply to your comment directly, I think you're right. Niv is just too powerful to pass up. Being able to draw cards off of the natural gameplan of a Control deck is super nice. His pinging ability helps to clear the battlefield and helps to stabilize the game. I hope that Grixis receives a few more cards from Rakdos (a reprint or variation of RAkdos's Return would be awesome). I've also really come to consider how powerful the new Haunt at Hightower could be. If you sequence your plays correctly and protect it with a [CARD}Thought Erasure[/CARD] or two, it could be a very powerful way to go over the top of Mid-Range decks. We'll see what the rest of the spoilers have before I start brewing again.
It looks pretty decent. How does your Control matchup look? The lack of hard counters seems odd to me but the full count of Essence Scatter looks just right. You want to be eating Mid-Range decks G1 and then pivoting to a purer Control list G2 and G3 against opposing Control. I'll give it a spin and see how it goes on Arena!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I'm using a 1/1 split of him and Ral along with 2 Eldest and 2 Bolas as my wincons.
My list:
3x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1x Demonlord Belzenlok
Removal (13)
3x Consecrate // Consume
3x Mortify
2x Settle the Wreckage
3x Kaya's Wrath
2x Vraska's Contempt
4x Thought Erasure
3x Quench
3x Absorb
Card Draw (7)
3x Discovery // Dispersal
3x Chemister's Insight
1x Precognitive Perception
Lands (25)
1x Swsamp
1x Plains
4x Watery Grave
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Godless Shrine
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Glacial Fortress
I've been doing Best of 1's obviously and this list has been really good for me. The one area I think it lacks is Card Draw, as I consistently find myself with 2-4 cards in hand at any given time.
One interesting thing I've noticed is that this current list does a FANTASTIC job of stabilizing its Life total. Between Kaya and the Consume half of Consecrate // Consume, I regularly end games with 15+ life, even against Mono-Red or other Aggro variants. It's a pretty great feeling. The number of games where a player conceded once I was able to establish Control of the game and let Kaya start exiling their 'yard was amazing to me; I think 5 of my matches ended that way. Kaya's lifegain is EXTREMELY helpful for the Control archetype and I've been extremely pleased with this list so far.
Anyways, just wanted to share the list that was working for me earlier this morning. I think I had a bit of luck as well this morning to advance as quickly as I did, so take that in mind if you give my list a go.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.