"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
1) forces you to overcommit to the board (bad vs white based control)
2) easily stranded in hand if opponent can interact with your board early on
3) GRN introduced 2 more cheap removal spells that can deal with him (Justice Strike, Assassin's Trophy). Because of that fact, I feel like Mare, Ferox, & Tyrant are better options.
Ghalta was a decent option pre rotation because Mono Red didnt have an answer for it and it was a sizeable chunk of the meta
1) forces you to overcommit to the board (bad vs white based control)
2) easily stranded in hand if opponent can interact with your board early on
3) GRN introduced 2 more cheap removal spells that can deal with him (Justice Strike, Assassin's Trophy). Because of that fact, I feel like Mare, Ferox, & Tyrant are better options.
Ghalta was a decent option pre rotation because Mono Red didnt have an answer for it and it was a sizeable chunk of the meta
I wouldnt play more than 2.
This deck is an aggro deck so do we REALLY have the choice of holding back in fear of a sweeper? 2/3 creatures would enough: Harpooner+SLC, Thorn+ Ferox, 3 2 drops....to cast by T4/5.
I really like the thought of being able to cast Find//finality against a popular deck like Golgari midrange finding Harpooner and Ghalta to cast both in the same turn; Harpooner potentially coming down as an 8/2 or more.
regardless of it all I still think tyrant is better for your reasons listed.
Steel Leaf Champion, which requires 23 green sources, does not yet fit in the above mana base. You can get there by increasing the land count, by relying on non-land sources like Llanowar Elves or Adventurous Impulse, by replacing a few Plains with Unclaimed Territory, Selesnya Guildgate, or Forest, or by accepting a lower level of consistency. But in a deck with Steel Leaf Champion, I would restrict myself to splashing only single-colored cards for turn 3 or later. For example, splashing Knight of Autumn off of 11 sources is doable in a properly constructed Steel Leaf Champion deck, but you should take care before stretching the mana base further.
This mana base can adequately support Llanowar Elves and/or Pelt Collector. Indeed, it contains 14 untapped green sources, not counting Sunpetal Grove, which is enough to cast green 1-drops consistently on turn 1
If I take your list (18 green sources with SL Champ, 10 untapped blue sources for Stormtamer) and compare it to what Karsten has to say, your manabase is approximatively as bad as I told you. The fact you want to move on because you're wrong is certainly your concern, but it's important not to leave the topic unanswered for other people who may read the conversation.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Steel Leaf Champion, which requires 23 green sources, does not yet fit in the above mana base. You can get there by increasing the land count, by relying on non-land sources like Llanowar Elves or Adventurous Impulse, by replacing a few Plains with Unclaimed Territory, Selesnya Guildgate, or Forest, or by accepting a lower level of consistency. But in a deck with Steel Leaf Champion, I would restrict myself to splashing only single-colored cards for turn 3 or later. For example, splashing Knight of Autumn off of 11 sources is doable in a properly constructed Steel Leaf Champion deck, but you should take care before stretching the mana base further.
This mana base can adequately support Llanowar Elves and/or Pelt Collector. Indeed, it contains 14 untapped green sources, not counting Sunpetal Grove, which is enough to cast green 1-drops consistently on turn 1
If I take your list (18 green sources with SL Champ, 10 untapped blue sources for Stormtamer) and compare it to what Karsten has to say, your manabase is approximatively as bad as I told you. The fact you want to move on because you're wrong is certainly your concern, but it's important not to leave the topic unanswered for other people who may read the conversation.
Thats a great article and everyone should pay attention to his work, the statistics.
Great job for pointing that out to avoid confusion and save people time in their testing.
Steel Leaf Champion, which requires 23 green sources, does not yet fit in the above mana base. You can get there by increasing the land count, by relying on non-land sources like Llanowar Elves or Adventurous Impulse, by replacing a few Plains with Unclaimed Territory, Selesnya Guildgate, or Forest, or by accepting a lower level of consistency. But in a deck with Steel Leaf Champion, I would restrict myself to splashing only single-colored cards for turn 3 or later. For example, splashing Knight of Autumn off of 11 sources is doable in a properly constructed Steel Leaf Champion deck, but you should take care before stretching the mana base further.
This mana base can adequately support Llanowar Elves and/or Pelt Collector. Indeed, it contains 14 untapped green sources, not counting Sunpetal Grove, which is enough to cast green 1-drops consistently on turn 1
If I take your list (18 green sources with SL Champ, 10 untapped blue sources for Stormtamer) and compare it to what Karsten has to say, your manabase is approximatively as bad as I told you. The fact you want to move on because you're wrong is certainly your concern, but it's important not to leave the topic unanswered for other people who may read the conversation.
Again, this really doesn't add anything. As far as answering the topic you didn't really do that very well, article had been posted multiple times previously before frank updated it. People really should just read it for themselves and use google. As far as your approximations...not gonna entertain those. Again, really would like to move on from it. Also, got a better idea run it mono green which was whole point of the thread...cool? cool.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Again, this really doesn't add anything. As far as answering the topic you didn't really do that very well, article had been posted multiple times previously before frank updated it. People really should just read it for themselves and use google. As far as your approximations...not gonna entertain those. Again, really would like to move on from it. Also, got a better idea run it mono green which was whole point of the thread...cool? cool.
Mana is there to play splash white or black, MonoGreen is strictly budget IMO.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I saw that list, but it looks horrible to me tbh. Treasure Map seems away from where you want to be. Wayward Swordtooth I just don't get, without Treasure Map it's really hard for this deck to get the city's blessing in any reasonable time, and even with it, it feels really slow. All that work just to get an easier to cast Steel-Leaf Champion, hard to see how it's worth it. The curve is too high for Experimental Frenzy too, Experimental Frenzy is great if your deck is full of 1-2 drops to cast 2-3 spells a turn, but that list isn't like that, it's too clunky here, the curve is too high for it, meaning you will just end up with a lot of your premium spells getting stuck in your hand.
That's why we have the 5-0 list. No telling how he used it. We can speculate heavily what works and what doesn't work. In the end OP went a different direction and netted a 5-0. It's not the ideal list but hey...what looks aweful to you was fine for the OP.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
I saw that list, but it looks horrible to me tbh. Treasure Map seems away from where you want to be. Wayward Swordtooth I just don't get, without Treasure Map it's really hard for this deck to get the city's blessing in any reasonable time, and even with it, it feels really slow. All that work just to get an easier to cast Steel-Leaf Champion, hard to see how it's worth it. The curve is too high for Experimental Frenzy too, Experimental Frenzy is great if your deck is full of 1-2 drops to cast 2-3 spells a turn, but that list isn't like that, it's too clunky here, the curve is too high for it, meaning you will just end up with a lot of your premium spells getting stuck in your hand.
That's why we have the 5-0 list. No telling how he used it. We can speculate heavily what works and what doesn't work. In the end OP went a different direction and netted a 5-0. It's not the ideal list but hey...what looks aweful to you was fine for the OP.
I've been testing various ideas for the deck on Magic Arena, and I have to agree with those saying Ghalta just isn't very good in the deck. At least not anymore.
There has been a flood of good removal showing up, as well as blue counter being, seemingly, everywhere. I've found myself far too often having Ghalta be countered or removed, or simply having my board too empty to be able to play him and he becomes a dead draw.
I think Ghalta is a great side-board card for decks like Red or Green, but for anything else that runs removal or counters, Carnage Tyrant is by far the way to go. After making the switch to Carnage Tyrant, personally, my win rate has increased by a fair bit.
I've also been bouncing back and forth between some early game cards. Namely Branchwalker and Jadelight vs Thorn Lieutenant and Krull Harpooner. The former grants some more control to the deck by being able to get lands or getting rid of potential dead draws, but the latter provides much better board presence and power. So far, I'm finding more success with the latter.
Also, for those saying that Assassin's Trophy isn't very good in the deck, I have to heavily disagree. I don't find myself often needing it, but when I do use it, it often saves the game for me. Getting rid of a high-power flyer, a deathtouch creature, or planeswalker. I'll gladly give my opponent a land if it means getting rid of a true threat. Anything else my high-powered creatures can take care of.
The final thing I've been testing with the deck is main-decking Vivien Reid. I'm having mixed results with this, and am unsure if it is the right idea. She does allow for extra draw-power and removing potential threats, and CAN provide a win condition if she's kept around long enough, but I often wonder if I wouldn't be better off just running another creature in her place. Does anyone have any input on this from testing of their own or just experience in general?
I've been testing various ideas for the deck on Magic Arena, and I have to agree with those saying Ghalta just isn't very good in the deck. At least not anymore.
There has been a flood of good removal showing up, as well as blue counter being, seemingly, everywhere. I've found myself far too often having Ghalta be countered or removed, or simply having my board too empty to be able to play him and he becomes a dead draw.
I think Ghalta is a great side-board card for decks like Red or Green, but for anything else that runs removal or counters, Carnage Tyrant is by far the way to go. After making the switch to Carnage Tyrant, personally, my win rate has increased by a fair bit.
I've also been bouncing back and forth between some early game cards. Namely Branchwalker and Jadelight vs Thorn Lieutenant and Krull Harpooner. The former grants some more control to the deck by being able to get lands or getting rid of potential dead draws, but the latter provides much better board presence and power. So far, I'm finding more success with the latter.
Also, for those saying that Assassin's Trophy isn't very good in the deck, I have to heavily disagree. I don't find myself often needing it, but when I do use it, it often saves the game for me. Getting rid of a high-power flyer, a deathtouch creature, or planeswalker. I'll gladly give my opponent a land if it means getting rid of a true threat. Anything else my high-powered creatures can take care of.
The final thing I've been testing with the deck is main-decking Vivien Reid. I'm having mixed results with this, and am unsure if it is the right idea. She does allow for extra draw-power and removing potential threats, and CAN provide a win condition if she's kept around long enough, but I often wonder if I wouldn't be better off just running another creature in her place. Does anyone have any input on this from testing of their own or just experience in general?
Regarding explore package......not in this deck. You need guaranteed p/t value more than fixing imo. Harpooner is a much needed answer to anything that flies that is also aggressively costed. Lieutenant gives you built in removal protection and a late game mana sink
Regardig Trophy, i think too many ppl play it incorrectly. I dont think its a 4 of and you dont want to be playing it in to the top of your opponents curve. 3 feels like the correct number.
Regarding Vivien, i think she's better out of the board (but should definitely be played in the 75). I dont want my hand clogged with too much 4cc+ stuff except when i wont be punished for it (grindier games).
I have to agree with everything you've said. Thank you for your input.
Also, what are your opinions on Ghalta? That's the only point I made that you didn't touch upon.
if you scroll back to the previous page you'll find my comments regardig Ghalta. Im off him as well. As you pointed out, against a few decks he's decent so i could see the argument for playing him as a 2 of if you wanted, but no more than that. Imo Tyrant + Mare + Ferox are superior options because they force U/W/x Settle decks to answer 1 for 1
If you have an unchecked Ferox in play, you should be ahead on board already. In a grindier game, youre going to go longer so getting to 7 mana is a reasonable ask. If/when your opponent deals with Ferox, you slam Vivien as a follow up
I have to agree with everything you've said. Thank you for your input.
Also, what are your opinions on Ghalta? That's the only point I made that you didn't touch upon.
if you scroll back to the previous page you'll find my comments regardig Ghalta. Im off him as well. As you pointed out, against a few decks he's decent so i could see the argument for playing him as a 2 of if you wanted, but no more than that. Imo Tyrant + Mare + Ferox are superior options because they force U/W/x Settle decks to answer 1 for 1
That's the line-up I'm currently running in my deck, though I'm still testing ratios. I'm currently using 4x Ferox, 3x Mare, and 2x Carnage Tyrant.
Regarding Vivien, i think she's better out of the board (but should definitely be played in the 75). I dont want my hand clogged with too much 4cc+ stuff except when i wont be punished for it (grindier games).
Vivien and Ferox = Nombo
I have been trying out Doom Whisperer in the 5 slot position as a 2 of, running 2 district guides.
I have to agree with everything you've said. Thank you for your input.
Also, what are your opinions on Ghalta? That's the only point I made that you didn't touch upon.
Despite ghalta being easier to kill than tyrant, he still comes down earlier than tyrant and if not dealt with, dead. I had 2 tyrants main but many games I noticed that had I had ghalta in my hand instead of tyrant I could close the game faster. IT also depends on the Match up. If Ghalta dies then you have other creatures in play that are still alive and if you have pelt collectors in play then they get counters (unless exiled....).
Against control tyrant is obviously better. Against red, boros, mirror, or tokens I would take Ghalta since it comes down faster. Against Golgari I have to go with the tyrant but I dont think its that much more impactful.
Against Red and Mirror, I fully agree that Ghalta is better, as I stated earlier. However, I must disagree when it comes to Boros. They tend to run Justice Strike, which kills Ghalta for just two mana. Would not hit Carnage Tyrant.
This is why I feel both should be in the 75. When facing Red or Green, swap in Ghalta. However, ANYTHING else, Carnage Tyrant is better. Because of this, I main Carnage and side Ghalta.
Against Red and Mirror, I fully agree that Ghalta is better, as I stated earlier. However, I must disagree when it comes to Boros. They tend to run Justice Strike, which kills Ghalta for just two mana. Would not hit Carnage Tyrant.
This is why I feel both should be in the 75. When facing Red or Green, swap in Ghalta. However, ANYTHING else, Carnage Tyrant is better. Because of this, I main Carnage and side Ghalta.
if they have it they have it, not a reason to not run it. Mirror runs trophy or conclave tribunal.
just reporting from FNM, played against Boros aggro, he didnt know about Ghalta but burned two SureStrikes on SLC and ferox, ghalta landed, he traded 4 creatures for it plus that spell that does 5 damage, then I played another same turn. Its only one game but didnt have the mana for a tyrant in those situations.
hmmm, For sideboard I know some folks are running Vivien Reid and Carnage Tyrant. Right now I'm running 1 Vivien Reid and 1 Lyra Dawnbringer I'm confident 1 of each just in general is not enough but I'm thinking of selling both and just getting 2 of Carnage Tyrant.
It dies to very little removal and works in almost every matchup out of the sideboard. Just curious on what other folks thoughts are and yes, I get these are based on local meta.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
So, after reading through the recent posts and lists, I seem to be of a differing opinion than pretty much everybody. I've also run through the few lists that managed to 5-0 on MTGO and they seem to be similar to each other in most respects. I've seen a lot of decks running early 1,2, and 3 drops in a classic effort to curve out, like Pelt Collector, Kraul Harpooner, Thorn Lieutenant, and Jadelight Ranger/Merfolk Branchwalker. I just don't think this should be the primary goal of MonoG Stompy, in a format that has 2 solid mana dorks and several great large costed threats. So I have gone a different direction than most with my list, sacrificing early threats for much better later threats and I've had pretty good success. I've played a total of 25 competitive league matches on Arena and tracked my results so I will share them here and then break down my choices.
This first screenshot is my match breakdown and winrate so far vs the current best decks in the format:
The second is my win percentage on the play vs on the draw:
The third is my list of individual matches played and their outcomes:
These are the first 25 matches I've run, all competitive, and I don't think I saw 1 "home brew". The most off beat deck I saw was probably Merfolk and I played it twice and it was still very competitive. The sample size is small so far but I think I've seen some trends that are very promising.
1. I think the matchup with all of the golgari builds is very favorable. So far the win rate is 5-2 and I lost at least 1 match to a pretty bad punt. The golgari decks don't do well with big creatures and also don't do well with creatures that have hexproof, which is a big part of my sideboard plan. They are rather slow in the beginning and play a lot of underpowered threats in the first few turns that we don't really care about and most of my creatures can't be killed by the cheaper vraksa, which is a big plus. Tying to play that style of game is the reason I think the MonoG lists I've seen haven't done very well against the golgari decks, you have to just go straight over the top.
2. Control decks of all types are very favorable. My current winrate vs all forms of control is 7-1, with most of the match wins being 2-0. They usually use their early burn to kill mana dorks which is only slightly annoying and they have very few hard removal threats to deal with nullhide ferox, Gigantosaurus, and Ghalta. To be fair I've only played Jeskai once, and that will certainly be the harder matchup with mass removal being more prevalent but I think games 2 and 3 are still heavily in my favor.
3 MonoRed is one of the easiest matchups to play. A turn 2 or 3 Steel Leaf Champion followed by a turn 4 threat is usually incredibly troublesome and they have basically no answers for Nullhide Ferox. Once you acquire a means to trample over, the game usually ends.
4. My worst matchup is by far the monoU aggro deck. 3 of my losses came from that deck, it's very annoying to deal with and if you look at the results without including that matchup, the win rate borders on absurd. I don't know what the exact answer is for it but I have plenty of room to put some answers for it.
So as you can see, the list doesn't even have a full sideboard, and I haven't even used Thrashing Brontodon at all. So there is plenty of room to make the deck even better than what it is.
The eight mana dorks are pretty self explanatory, as is Steel Leaf Champion. Prey Upon has opened up attacking lanes a few times for the win, and Blanchwood Armor on a trample creature usually ends the game. Beast Whisperer wins the game if not countered or killed, it allows me to go way over the top of other creature decks and turns mana dorks into gas late game. Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma makes Ferox, Carnage Tyrants, and Mammoth come in at absurd prices, and the trample ability it gives all creatures is usually how I win the game. Nullhide Ferox is an absurdly broken card and I'd run 8 if I could. Gigantosaurus is ok, it can't be burned out usually and giving it trample is great. Against most decks it eats a removal spell but if it lives even for a turn, it can give you an instantly cheap Ghalta. Ghalta, Primal Hunger is a straight powerhouse and is responsible for most of the wins and it amazes me that people have discussed not playing it. Carnage Tyrant is self explanatory, and Aggressive Mammoth gives the team trample and can win me the game the same turn it's cast. Sideboard is completely wide open, the only thing I usually side in is hexproof creatures and Find//Finality for removal heavy decks.
Will continue to run this and track results, any questions, comments, advice, or criticism is welcome. Thanks!
So as you can see, the list doesn't even have a full sideboard, and I haven't even used Thrashing Brontodon at all. So there is plenty of room to make the deck even better than what it is.
The eight mana dorks are pretty self explanatory, as is Steel Leaf Champion. Prey Upon has opened up attacking lanes a few times for the win, and Blanchwood Armor on a trample creature usually ends the game. Beast Whisperer wins the game if not countered or killed, it allows me to go way over the top of other creature decks and turns mana dorks into gas late game. Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma makes Ferox, Carnage Tyrants, and Mammoth come in at absurd prices, and the trample ability it gives all creatures is usually how I win the game. Nullhide Ferox is an absurdly broken card and I'd run 8 if I could. Gigantosaurus is ok, it can't be burned out usually and giving it trample is great. Against most decks it eats a removal spell but if it lives even for a turn, it can give you an instantly cheap Ghalta. Ghalta, Primal Hunger is a straight powerhouse and is responsible for most of the wins and it amazes me that people have discussed not playing it. Carnage Tyrant is self explanatory, and Aggressive Mammoth gives the team trample and can win me the game the same turn it's cast. Sideboard is completely wide open, the only thing I usually side in is hexproof creatures and Find//Finality for removal heavy decks.
Will continue to run this and track results, any questions, comments, advice, or criticism is welcome. Thanks!
OMG, ELEVEN 4 drops! 4 Ghalta! This list is greedy! Kraul Harpooner should shore up your monoU matchup, all decks with little flyiers just fold to that card.
I want to try out the list in any case, it seems to go against common concepts but it is in my wheel house as I am a 'Timmy' player and it uses cards I would love to play with. I am sure that 3 Ghalta would be better though.
add 2 Vivien Reid to the SB.
No reason not to add black to the mana base and replace Prey upon with assassin's Trophy (no budget talk in here) it also expands your SB options and allows you to use the awesome back side of find//finality.
Played quite a few games today with your deck, one problem I had was mulliganing. If you dont have any mana dorks then you dont have a play until turn 4, excluding SLC. Some hands I had 2 lands, 1 dork and 4 drops, dork got killed and it took too many turns to find lands to play my spells. The deck seemed to stall a lot because I didnt want to attack my beast whisperer or goreclaw into opposing blockers. There were games where I was behind so I woldnt win the race of attacking with my new gigantosaurus or ferox.
Played quite a few games today with your deck, one problem I had was mulliganing. If you dont have any mana dorks then you dont have a play until turn 4, excluding SLC. Some hands I had 2 lands, 1 dork and 4 drops, dork got killed and it took too many turns to find lands to play my spells. The deck seemed to stall a lot because I didnt want to attack my beast whisperer or goreclaw into opposing blockers. There were games where I was behind so I woldnt win the race of attacking with my new gigantosaurus or ferox.
I keep every single 2 land+ 1 mana dork, especially on the draw and it's hard for me to see a world where that goes bad long term. There's only 1 deck that can somewhat punish that draw and it's monored. If its UR control, they shoot a dork but then what? They aren't killing me turn 5 or even turn 6, so you get plenty of time to draw lands or more dorks. If it's GB, the only way they have to kill it is plaguecrafter, assassin's trophy does nothing and they also aren't killing me turn 5. What other deck kills my dork in the first few turns but also puts so much pressure that I can't draw out of it? monored can certainly shoot a dork, but then they are using their mana to kill the dork, not cast creatures to run me over. And monored is the deck that has the hardest time with an early resolved threat. So yeah, I can see how if you keep a 2 lander plus dork, it dies and then you brick 3 turns in a row vs specifically monored then you probably get punished. but that's really just bad variance. And it would have to happen multiple games in a row. And so far my record vs monored is 4-0. Also FWIW, I almost never attack with beast whisperer, it just being alive helps you win the game, same with goreclaw. Its sole job is to make things cheaper and swing in when you have other big threats that benefit from trample damage and multiple pumping. This is also a deck where you use your life as a resource pretty heavily in the early game, you take no risky blocks with key pieces and you keep landing threats and then win over 1 or 2 turns.
Played quite a few games today with your deck, one problem I had was mulliganing. If you dont have any mana dorks then you dont have a play until turn 4, excluding SLC. Some hands I had 2 lands, 1 dork and 4 drops, dork got killed and it took too many turns to find lands to play my spells. The deck seemed to stall a lot because I didnt want to attack my beast whisperer or goreclaw into opposing blockers. There were games where I was behind so I woldnt win the race of attacking with my new gigantosaurus or ferox.
I keep every single 2 land+ 1 mana dork, especially on the draw and it's hard for me to see a world where that goes bad long term. There's only 1 deck that can somewhat punish that draw and it's monored. If its UR control, they shoot a dork but then what? They aren't killing me turn 5 or even turn 6, so you get plenty of time to draw lands or more dorks. If it's GB, the only way they have to kill it is plaguecrafter, assassin's trophy does nothing and they also aren't killing me turn 5. What other deck kills my dork in the first few turns but also puts so much pressure that I can't draw out of it? monored can certainly shoot a dork, but then they are using their mana to kill the dork, not cast creatures to run me over. And monored is the deck that has the hardest time with an early resolved threat. So yeah, I can see how if you keep a 2 lander plus dork, it dies and then you brick 3 turns in a row vs specifically monored then you probably get punished. but that's really just bad variance. And it would have to happen multiple games in a row. And so far my record vs monored is 4-0. Also FWIW, I almost never attack with beast whisperer, it just being alive helps you win the game, same with goreclaw. Its sole job is to make things cheaper and swing in when you have other big threats that benefit from trample damage and multiple pumping. This is also a deck where you use your life as a resource pretty heavily in the early game, you take no risky blocks with key pieces and you keep landing threats and then win over 1 or 2 turns.
All control combinations have 2 drop removal and Boros. Came across Dimir and Esper control and carvings prevented fast starts. My experience with GB wasnt dork removal but in the 2 matches they won they wrathed both with Fatality G1 and 3. Game 3 their walkers were becoming larger than my Ferox and beast whisperer kept the cards flowing so I was trying to get to a ghalta or Giganosaur//goreclaw combination. Having Goreclaw and Whisperer encourage board floods which fall right into sweepers, just have to manage that carefully. Right, I too do not block/attack with Whisperer and that is where using one's life total as a resource comes in but it felt like it was harder to transition into the beat down when you have to stay on the defensive to prevent dying.
I definitely hit some bad variance so I'll keep playing it to see how I like it. This is was I am currently at:
Here is the list I've finally settled upon for the moment. Still testing and making changes, but of all the builds I've constructed, this one has been giving me the most success. It's very versatile and able to handle multiple different types of opponents. The only poor match-up is with Blue Control, and that's what I'll be building the side-board around.
Also, I know in previous posts I said I didn't feel Ghalta was worth using, and instead would be using Carnage Tyrant, but I have since changed my mind on that stance. Ghalta is a great win condition for the deck, and should only be removed when facing heavy control. That match-up is where I'd replace him with Carnage Tyrant.
Imo, Definitely think Ghalta should be making these decks.
But would note the sideboard, they definitely emphasize more control in the SB.
Find\\Finality is pretty good.
-Stay Frosty
1) forces you to overcommit to the board (bad vs white based control)
2) easily stranded in hand if opponent can interact with your board early on
3) GRN introduced 2 more cheap removal spells that can deal with him (Justice Strike, Assassin's Trophy). Because of that fact, I feel like Mare, Ferox, & Tyrant are better options.
Ghalta was a decent option pre rotation because Mono Red didnt have an answer for it and it was a sizeable chunk of the meta
I wouldnt play more than 2.
This deck is an aggro deck so do we REALLY have the choice of holding back in fear of a sweeper? 2/3 creatures would enough: Harpooner+SLC, Thorn+ Ferox, 3 2 drops....to cast by T4/5.
I really like the thought of being able to cast Find//finality against a popular deck like Golgari midrange finding Harpooner and Ghalta to cast both in the same turn; Harpooner potentially coming down as an 8/2 or more.
regardless of it all I still think tyrant is better for your reasons listed.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
It helps and adds more details for people who want to have good information on the topic. You're not the only one to read the topic.
You should probably read Karsten's update on CFB :
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells-a-guilds-of-ravnica-update/
If I take your list (18 green sources with SL Champ, 10 untapped blue sources for Stormtamer) and compare it to what Karsten has to say, your manabase is approximatively as bad as I told you. The fact you want to move on because you're wrong is certainly your concern, but it's important not to leave the topic unanswered for other people who may read the conversation.
Thats a great article and everyone should pay attention to his work, the statistics.
Great job for pointing that out to avoid confusion and save people time in their testing.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Again, this really doesn't add anything. As far as answering the topic you didn't really do that very well, article had been posted multiple times previously before frank updated it. People really should just read it for themselves and use google. As far as your approximations...not gonna entertain those. Again, really would like to move on from it. Also, got a better idea run it mono green which was whole point of the thread...cool? cool.
-Stay Frosty
Mana is there to play splash white or black, MonoGreen is strictly budget IMO.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
5 Mountain
13 Forest
4 Rootbound Crag
1 Timber Gorge
Creatures (26)
4 Druid of the Cowl
2 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
2 Jadelight Ranger
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Steel Leaf Champion
2 Vine Mare
4 Wayward Swordtooth
4 Experimental Frenzy
2 Banefire
4 Treasure Map
1 Vivien Reid
1 Vivien Reid
3 Lava Coil
4 Carnage Tyrant
3 Nullhide Ferox
2 Banefire
2 Vine Mare
Wonder if Treasure Map is a thing now.
-Stay Frosty
That's why we have the 5-0 list. No telling how he used it. We can speculate heavily what works and what doesn't work. In the end OP went a different direction and netted a 5-0. It's not the ideal list but hey...what looks aweful to you was fine for the OP.
-Stay Frosty
Others:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1399820#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1397607#paper
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
There has been a flood of good removal showing up, as well as blue counter being, seemingly, everywhere. I've found myself far too often having Ghalta be countered or removed, or simply having my board too empty to be able to play him and he becomes a dead draw.
I think Ghalta is a great side-board card for decks like Red or Green, but for anything else that runs removal or counters, Carnage Tyrant is by far the way to go. After making the switch to Carnage Tyrant, personally, my win rate has increased by a fair bit.
I've also been bouncing back and forth between some early game cards. Namely Branchwalker and Jadelight vs Thorn Lieutenant and Krull Harpooner. The former grants some more control to the deck by being able to get lands or getting rid of potential dead draws, but the latter provides much better board presence and power. So far, I'm finding more success with the latter.
Also, for those saying that Assassin's Trophy isn't very good in the deck, I have to heavily disagree. I don't find myself often needing it, but when I do use it, it often saves the game for me. Getting rid of a high-power flyer, a deathtouch creature, or planeswalker. I'll gladly give my opponent a land if it means getting rid of a true threat. Anything else my high-powered creatures can take care of.
The final thing I've been testing with the deck is main-decking Vivien Reid. I'm having mixed results with this, and am unsure if it is the right idea. She does allow for extra draw-power and removing potential threats, and CAN provide a win condition if she's kept around long enough, but I often wonder if I wouldn't be better off just running another creature in her place. Does anyone have any input on this from testing of their own or just experience in general?
Regarding explore package......not in this deck. You need guaranteed p/t value more than fixing imo. Harpooner is a much needed answer to anything that flies that is also aggressively costed. Lieutenant gives you built in removal protection and a late game mana sink
Regardig Trophy, i think too many ppl play it incorrectly. I dont think its a 4 of and you dont want to be playing it in to the top of your opponents curve. 3 feels like the correct number.
Regarding Vivien, i think she's better out of the board (but should definitely be played in the 75). I dont want my hand clogged with too much 4cc+ stuff except when i wont be punished for it (grindier games).
Also, what are your opinions on Ghalta? That's the only point I made that you didn't touch upon.
That's the line-up I'm currently running in my deck, though I'm still testing ratios. I'm currently using 4x Ferox, 3x Mare, and 2x Carnage Tyrant.
Vivien and Ferox = Nombo
I have been trying out Doom Whisperer in the 5 slot position as a 2 of, running 2 district guides.
Despite ghalta being easier to kill than tyrant, he still comes down earlier than tyrant and if not dealt with, dead. I had 2 tyrants main but many games I noticed that had I had ghalta in my hand instead of tyrant I could close the game faster. IT also depends on the Match up. If Ghalta dies then you have other creatures in play that are still alive and if you have pelt collectors in play then they get counters (unless exiled....).
Against control tyrant is obviously better. Against red, boros, mirror, or tokens I would take Ghalta since it comes down faster. Against Golgari I have to go with the tyrant but I dont think its that much more impactful.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
This is why I feel both should be in the 75. When facing Red or Green, swap in Ghalta. However, ANYTHING else, Carnage Tyrant is better. Because of this, I main Carnage and side Ghalta.
if they have it they have it, not a reason to not run it. Mirror runs trophy or conclave tribunal.
just reporting from FNM, played against Boros aggro, he didnt know about Ghalta but burned two SureStrikes on SLC and ferox, ghalta landed, he traded 4 creatures for it plus that spell that does 5 damage, then I played another same turn. Its only one game but didnt have the mana for a tyrant in those situations.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Pelt Collector
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Thorn Lieutenant
1 Merfolk Branchwalker - card 60, additional 2 drops, Untamed KAvu instead?
4 Steel Leaf Champion
2 District Guide
2 Thrashing Brontodon
4 Nullhide Ferox
2 Doom Whisperer
3 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
3 Assassin's Trophy
Lands - 23
14 Forest
1 Swamp - against other trophies, ruins, guide
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Silent Gravestone - shuts down:'Folly', Findbrooker, find, reborn...testing it
3 Vine Mare - black decks, grixis
2 Find // Finality - return creatures, removal heavy decks, tokens, Golgari
2 Carnage Tyrant - control, Golgari
2 Vivien Reid - control, fliers
2 Thrashing Brontodon - arts and enchants
1 Assassin's Trophy - catch all
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Carnage Tyrant.
It dies to very little removal and works in almost every matchup out of the sideboard. Just curious on what other folks thoughts are and yes, I get these are based on local meta.
-Stay Frosty
So, after reading through the recent posts and lists, I seem to be of a differing opinion than pretty much everybody. I've also run through the few lists that managed to 5-0 on MTGO and they seem to be similar to each other in most respects. I've seen a lot of decks running early 1,2, and 3 drops in a classic effort to curve out, like Pelt Collector, Kraul Harpooner, Thorn Lieutenant, and Jadelight Ranger/Merfolk Branchwalker. I just don't think this should be the primary goal of MonoG Stompy, in a format that has 2 solid mana dorks and several great large costed threats. So I have gone a different direction than most with my list, sacrificing early threats for much better later threats and I've had pretty good success. I've played a total of 25 competitive league matches on Arena and tracked my results so I will share them here and then break down my choices.
This first screenshot is my match breakdown and winrate so far vs the current best decks in the format:
The second is my win percentage on the play vs on the draw:
The third is my list of individual matches played and their outcomes:
These are the first 25 matches I've run, all competitive, and I don't think I saw 1 "home brew". The most off beat deck I saw was probably Merfolk and I played it twice and it was still very competitive. The sample size is small so far but I think I've seen some trends that are very promising.
1. I think the matchup with all of the golgari builds is very favorable. So far the win rate is 5-2 and I lost at least 1 match to a pretty bad punt. The golgari decks don't do well with big creatures and also don't do well with creatures that have hexproof, which is a big part of my sideboard plan. They are rather slow in the beginning and play a lot of underpowered threats in the first few turns that we don't really care about and most of my creatures can't be killed by the cheaper vraksa, which is a big plus. Tying to play that style of game is the reason I think the MonoG lists I've seen haven't done very well against the golgari decks, you have to just go straight over the top.
2. Control decks of all types are very favorable. My current winrate vs all forms of control is 7-1, with most of the match wins being 2-0. They usually use their early burn to kill mana dorks which is only slightly annoying and they have very few hard removal threats to deal with nullhide ferox, Gigantosaurus, and Ghalta. To be fair I've only played Jeskai once, and that will certainly be the harder matchup with mass removal being more prevalent but I think games 2 and 3 are still heavily in my favor.
3 MonoRed is one of the easiest matchups to play. A turn 2 or 3 Steel Leaf Champion followed by a turn 4 threat is usually incredibly troublesome and they have basically no answers for Nullhide Ferox. Once you acquire a means to trample over, the game usually ends.
4. My worst matchup is by far the monoU aggro deck. 3 of my losses came from that deck, it's very annoying to deal with and if you look at the results without including that matchup, the win rate borders on absurd. I don't know what the exact answer is for it but I have plenty of room to put some answers for it.
So here is the list:
4x Llanowar elves
4x Druid of the Cowl
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Beast Whisperer
4x Nullhide Ferox
3x Goreclaw, Teror of Qal Sisma
3x Gigantosaurus
1x Aggressive Mammoth
1x Carnage Tyrant
4x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
2x Prey Upon
2x Blanchwood Armor
Lands
24x Forest
1x Prey Upon
1x Plummet
2x Find//Finality
2x Thrashing Brontodon
3x Vine Mare
2x Carnage Tyrant
So as you can see, the list doesn't even have a full sideboard, and I haven't even used Thrashing Brontodon at all. So there is plenty of room to make the deck even better than what it is.
The eight mana dorks are pretty self explanatory, as is Steel Leaf Champion. Prey Upon has opened up attacking lanes a few times for the win, and Blanchwood Armor on a trample creature usually ends the game. Beast Whisperer wins the game if not countered or killed, it allows me to go way over the top of other creature decks and turns mana dorks into gas late game. Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma makes Ferox, Carnage Tyrants, and Mammoth come in at absurd prices, and the trample ability it gives all creatures is usually how I win the game. Nullhide Ferox is an absurdly broken card and I'd run 8 if I could. Gigantosaurus is ok, it can't be burned out usually and giving it trample is great. Against most decks it eats a removal spell but if it lives even for a turn, it can give you an instantly cheap Ghalta. Ghalta, Primal Hunger is a straight powerhouse and is responsible for most of the wins and it amazes me that people have discussed not playing it. Carnage Tyrant is self explanatory, and Aggressive Mammoth gives the team trample and can win me the game the same turn it's cast. Sideboard is completely wide open, the only thing I usually side in is hexproof creatures and Find//Finality for removal heavy decks.
Will continue to run this and track results, any questions, comments, advice, or criticism is welcome. Thanks!
OMG, ELEVEN 4 drops! 4 Ghalta! This list is greedy! Kraul Harpooner should shore up your monoU matchup, all decks with little flyiers just fold to that card.
I want to try out the list in any case, it seems to go against common concepts but it is in my wheel house as I am a 'Timmy' player and it uses cards I would love to play with. I am sure that 3 Ghalta would be better though.
add 2 Vivien Reid to the SB.
No reason not to add black to the mana base and replace Prey upon with assassin's Trophy (no budget talk in here) it also expands your SB options and allows you to use the awesome back side of find//finality.
Played quite a few games today with your deck, one problem I had was mulliganing. If you dont have any mana dorks then you dont have a play until turn 4, excluding SLC. Some hands I had 2 lands, 1 dork and 4 drops, dork got killed and it took too many turns to find lands to play my spells. The deck seemed to stall a lot because I didnt want to attack my beast whisperer or goreclaw into opposing blockers. There were games where I was behind so I woldnt win the race of attacking with my new gigantosaurus or ferox.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I keep every single 2 land+ 1 mana dork, especially on the draw and it's hard for me to see a world where that goes bad long term. There's only 1 deck that can somewhat punish that draw and it's monored. If its UR control, they shoot a dork but then what? They aren't killing me turn 5 or even turn 6, so you get plenty of time to draw lands or more dorks. If it's GB, the only way they have to kill it is plaguecrafter, assassin's trophy does nothing and they also aren't killing me turn 5. What other deck kills my dork in the first few turns but also puts so much pressure that I can't draw out of it? monored can certainly shoot a dork, but then they are using their mana to kill the dork, not cast creatures to run me over. And monored is the deck that has the hardest time with an early resolved threat. So yeah, I can see how if you keep a 2 lander plus dork, it dies and then you brick 3 turns in a row vs specifically monored then you probably get punished. but that's really just bad variance. And it would have to happen multiple games in a row. And so far my record vs monored is 4-0. Also FWIW, I almost never attack with beast whisperer, it just being alive helps you win the game, same with goreclaw. Its sole job is to make things cheaper and swing in when you have other big threats that benefit from trample damage and multiple pumping. This is also a deck where you use your life as a resource pretty heavily in the early game, you take no risky blocks with key pieces and you keep landing threats and then win over 1 or 2 turns.
All control combinations have 2 drop removal and Boros. Came across Dimir and Esper control and carvings prevented fast starts. My experience with GB wasnt dork removal but in the 2 matches they won they wrathed both with Fatality G1 and 3. Game 3 their walkers were becoming larger than my Ferox and beast whisperer kept the cards flowing so I was trying to get to a ghalta or Giganosaur//goreclaw combination. Having Goreclaw and Whisperer encourage board floods which fall right into sweepers, just have to manage that carefully. Right, I too do not block/attack with Whisperer and that is where using one's life total as a resource comes in but it felt like it was harder to transition into the beat down when you have to stay on the defensive to prevent dying.
I definitely hit some bad variance so I'll keep playing it to see how I like it. This is was I am currently at:
4x Llanowar elves
4x Druid of the Cowl
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Beast Whisperer
4x Nullhide Ferox
3x Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
3x Gigantosaurus
1x Aggressive Mammoth
1x Carnage Tyrant
3x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
3x assassin's trophy
2x Blanchwood Armor
Lands
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 woodland cemetery
1 swamp
14 Forest
3 silent gravestone - testing
2 Vivien Reid
2x Find//Finality
3x Thrashing Brontodon
3x Vine Mare
2x Carnage Tyrant
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Also, I know in previous posts I said I didn't feel Ghalta was worth using, and instead would be using Carnage Tyrant, but I have since changed my mind on that stance. Ghalta is a great win condition for the deck, and should only be removed when facing heavy control. That match-up is where I'd replace him with Carnage Tyrant.
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Pelt Collector
4x Thorn Lieutenant
4x Kraul Harpooner
4x Thrashing Brontodon
4x Steel Leaf Champion
4x Nullhide Ferox
3x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
2x Vivien Reid
Spells: 3
3x Assassin's Trophy
Land: 24
15x Forest
1x Swamp
4x Woodland Cemetery
4x Overgrown Tomb