Hey guys, I am pretty new to the deck. Have played a few leagues and I feel like the power level of this deck is above any else in the format. It beats up on the midrange decks which are really popular right now. My one issue I have with the deck is the consistency. Every match I get manascrewed or colorscrewed at least once. When I have the resources to do my thing I seem to win all the time, when I get manascrewed I lose. All the lists play 24 lands, has anyone tried going up to 25 and adding another cycling land?
Hey guys, I am pretty new to the deck. Have played a few leagues and I feel like the power level of this deck is above any else in the format. It beats up on the midrange decks which are really popular right now. My one issue I have with the deck is the consistency. Every match I get manascrewed or colorscrewed at least once. When I have the resources to do my thing I seem to win all the time, when I get manascrewed I lose. All the lists play 24 lands, has anyone tried going up to 25 and adding another cycling land?
I actually want to go back to 23 lands. If you're running an "average" list, statistically you shouldn't need more than 23-24 lands.
Interesting review of midrange decks here. While we may like the conclusion, I see the results of a lot of testing and discussion that are worth considering.
Thanks for posting that link. It was an interesting read.
I'm actually surprised he says Negate sucks so much in the deck. I see his points, I'm just still surprised. I almost feel like it's the most powerful sideboard card I have since I went with sultai, but I'm seeing more lists pop up without Negate in the sideboard.
Game 1, you are a beatdown-combo deck against everybody, no matter how good or bad that might be against the opposing deck. Hadana's Climb + Winding Constrictor can "combo-kill" from a high opposing life total, and Bristling Hydra can wear the counters like a champion. Winding Constrictor separately enables very explosive draws involving Verdurous Gearhulk or Bristling Hydra, and powers up the already-great Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and Walking Ballista. I opted to have the bare minimum interaction in Blossoming Defense (a "combo" piece with Winged Temple that usually buys a turn) and Vraska's Contempt (expensive but necessary to handle over-the-top threats).
Probably the most eye-catching tuning decision was cutting Fatal Push from the maindeck, and I did that because the addition of Hadana's Climb to the deck and the construction of the red deck really invalidates Push as a way to win a race.
Having a random Fatal Push somewhere in your curve is not making the difference most of the time -- there's really nothing good to tag. Their 1-drops mostly suck and exist to get cards out of their hand for Hazoret (if they also get one out of yours, great!), Earthshaker Khenra (and Scrapheap Scrounger in the black splash) comes back, and everything else laughs at it. It's good if you can tag exactly Kari Zev while deploying another threat, that's it.
Furthermore, having Hadana's Climb in your deck forces you down this road of always having a creature play on turn 2 no matter how rough of a play it is. Hadana's Climb flipping into Winged Temple of Orazca is your ticket to flipping the race on its head and winning, but it doesn't work if you don't play out threats continually and get it flipped before Hazoret can kill you. And since their whole deck is a pile of hasty creatures with Hammerhand stapled to them, those creatures can do one thing: attack. Attacking is good here since your chip-shot damage is probably enough to put them into Winged Temple OHKO range.
I frankly think trying to race red is a losing proposition, but the addition of Hadana's Climb and the construction of the red deck just structurally puts us in a terrible place. You need them to brick on some aspect of their draw, that's just how it is. Given that you need this anyway, you might as well maximize your good draws against them, which tend to involve 2-drop -> Climb -> Hydra or two 2-drops -> flip Climb, go to clown town.
The only place I like Fatal Push is the mirror, where you might need it on the draw in order to catch up against an opponent's explosive Constrictor -> Climb or 2-drop -> 2-drop + Push your 2-drop draw. I'm willing to give up percentage points in those situations because I've noticed that the quick "snowball" draws don't happen nearly as often with Longtusk Cub effectively banned from the deck. Once Bristling Hydra hits the field for both players, profitable attacks tend to go away quickly until Hadana's Climb flips. Since the game gets grotesquely uninteractive once the board stalls out, I'd rather draw more threats and make land drops to use Winged Temple or Walking Ballista effectively instead of drawing Pushes.
Against everyone else, Fatal Push is anywhere from "marginal and probably worse than a threat, Blossoming Defense or Vraska's Contempt" to "outright terrible." Not having them in your deck is an upgrade.
In the sideboard, I have a package of Scarab God, Vraska, Lifecrafter's Bestiary and Nissa that I bring in for situations where I think I'm unlikely to be able to set up a combo -- control decks are one example, but also GR Monsters, which can back up early aggression with the godlike duo of Chandra and Glorybringer, who are typically lights-out against this strategy. How much of these elements I bring in depends upon the specific deck I'm up against, but the general idea is that I stacked my g1 deck heavily toward explosive draws and Winged Temple combos, and in g2/g3 I expect my opponents to be better able to disrupt me, so if they're already packing good disruption as part of their deck, I want to be off the explosive plan altogether and try to level them by being a little bit bigger midrange deck. Brontodons are beefy idiots for red that also make sure I don't have to register Naturalize or the crappy equivalents that we had from Kaladesh. Cartouche of Ambition is probably the best card (aside from perhaps Aethersphere Harvester?) for executing the "race red" plan, since Harvesters can actually block and Cartouche on a Hydra is lights out. I'm not going to try very hard to beat red with this deck but I'm willing to give myself that much of a shot. Duress is generic disruption for control decks.
I think you have an interesting rationale for the deck you've made, but I also believe you seriously underestimate the importance of Fatal Push on the draw. If you think it doesn't make a difference most of the time, I would be interested to know what decks you have been facing. I literally don't have any problem swith red decks so long as I don't flood out on lands. More importantly, trying to race a deck that's literally built for it is a mistake imo. You should be playing the control against R/X decks until you're ready to finish them off.
Maybe I'm just weird, but I like Fatal Push against anything playing Glint-Sleeve Siphoner (Grixis Energy, Sultai Aggro), RG Monsters, GW Aggro, BW Aggro, BR Aggro and R/X Aggro. That's just from my experience playing locally and online. I think you're idea banks too much on the idea of being on the play in G1 against aggro decks.
I think you have an interesting rationale for the deck you've made, but I also believe you seriously underestimate the importance of Fatal Push on the draw. If you think it doesn't make a difference most of the time, I would be interested to know what decks you have been facing. I literally don't have any problem swith red decks so long as I don't flood out on lands. More importantly, trying to race a deck that's literally built for it is a mistake imo. You should be playing the control against R/X decks until you're ready to finish them off.
Maybe I'm just weird, but I like Fatal Push against anything playing Glint-Sleeve Siphoner (Grixis Energy, Sultai Aggro), RG Monsters, GW Aggro, BW Aggro, BR Aggro and R/X Aggro. That's just from my experience playing locally and online. I think you're idea banks too much on the idea of being on the play in G1 against aggro decks.
I've run against the whole gauntlet. You can't actually play the control role against R/x decks with the Hadana's Climb build with any reliability. Outside of Kari Zev, Push doesn't do very much against their deck, and I'd rather play my own 2-drop and try to set up a Hadana's Climb kill as quickly as possible. I acknowledge it's hard to race them -- that's why the matchup is bad: you start on the backfoot and don't have any really good mechanisms for breaking serve in a meaningful way, except for combo-killing with Climb.
Push is good against Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but you have Walking Ballista to deal with Siphoner if you need to take it out ASAP for whatever reason. Push is typically awful against Siphoner decks, since Siphoner is the only good target for it. Drawing Push against Grixis when they just don't draw Siphoner is effectively a mulligan, ditto against UB. (Sultai Constrictor is the exception, and I listed that as the one place where I think not running Push costs me percentage points.) Push is flat-out awful against RG Monsters (their only targets are all 2-for-1s), GW Aggro (same thing), BW Aggro (they have Legion's Lieutenant which is an important target, but otherwise same thing), and we've talked about the R/x decks earlier.
So you say you can't play the control with your setup, but I've repeatedly had success doing so. I just find it interesting that you say you can't when many R/X players I know in my area say Sultai is a bad match for them (their worst largely being UB control). You're actively all-in on trying to "combo" them out, which doesn't matter if you never stabilize. For instance, I have a fourth Vraska's Contempt in sideboard along with a third Fatal Push just to handle more garbage early and Hazoret and Phoenix later. Sometimes there's a fourth Fatal Push in the sideboard Grixis/UB midrange/control decks are on the downswing. R/X opponents are purely trying to beat you on tempo. Your synergies naturally beat them if you can stabilize. This is why I have the sideboard I do.
Against R/X decks, I will use Push on anything early. Letting Bomat Courier or even Fanatical Firebrand do more than 1 damage to you is a mistake. I mean it feels like you forget that they can Lightning Strike and Abrade their way through your creatures to kill you with draft trash. If you kill their early game, they tend to run out of gas, which means you should end up winning the long game so long as you didn't take unnecessary chip shots. This is actually one of the matches where I shave on Hadana's Climb. I generally just don't want it, especially early in the game.
Against RG Monsters... yes, they have 2-for-1's across turns. I'm just trying to break up the bursts so Glorybringer isn't just a 4/4 finisher on curve. If they tap out to bring back a Khenra, odds are that they're not doing anything else that turn. So you're telling me Fatal Push isn't good against that? Literally the only card it's completely useless against is Glorybringer, Rhonas the Indomitable and maybe Verdurous Gearhulk (not sure they play this).
Against decks playing Siphoner (UB and Grixis midrange in particular), I like Fatal Push a little less largely because games are probably going long no matter what happens. So dealing with the early game isn't really my priority as it is with aggro decks. I still tend to keep 2 in unless I'm on the play. Allowing a Siphoner to live in a long, drawn out match is suicidal imo.
Against BW aggro, I have used Fatal Push as a 4-damage spell against Adanto Vanguard. It also kills Legion Lieutenant, Metallic Mimic, Skymarcher Aspirant and a ton of other things. I'm legitimately confused about your comment on this match because they use Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle to keep powering more stuff out. It's just trying to build up to a critical mass of stuff to kill you with. If it never builds, it never matters. In particular, the nontoken creatures matter the most. The only time this is a problem is when Yahenni is out with Mavren Fein.
I know Jadelight Ranger is a 3 or 4 of in every list but I'm finding turn 3 of my matches pretty vulnerable, where the Ranger probably won't cut it and unless I have a 2 drop & Blossoming Defense or my opponent did nothing to my turn 2 drop(which is never) I don't feel great moving forward or waiting a turn to have Blossom up.
I saw some lists trying out Claim // Fame as a way to recover your dead 2 drop and lay another 2mana spell on turn 3. I think that might be okay but there's still Magma Spray out there; but if its a snek at least it's safe. Maybe it's good enough for me because I also run Gifted Aetherborn
all the Sultai lists I see now are identical and I don't know how to keep the tempo going, I miss charms and multimodal spells
maybe maindeck Thrashing Brontodon or Greenbelt Rampager could live to see my turn 4, or I'll cave and just run the Shapers' Sanctuary
I have been putting 1 or 2 Thrashing Brontodon in the main deck over Jadelight Ranger. It's just more useful imo. I've never been all that impressed with Jadelight Ranger though so take it with a grain of salt.
I know Jadelight Ranger is a 3 or 4 of in every list but I'm finding turn 3 of my matches pretty vulnerable, where the Ranger probably won't cut it and unless I have a 2 drop & Blossoming Defense or my opponent did nothing to my turn 2 drop(which is never) I don't feel great moving forward or waiting a turn to have Blossom up.
I saw some lists trying out Claim // Fame as a way to recover your dead 2 drop and lay another 2mana spell on turn 3. I think that might be okay but there's still Magma Spray out there; but if its a snek at least it's safe. Maybe it's good enough for me because I also run Gifted Aetherborn
all the Sultai lists I see now are identical and I don't know how to keep the tempo going, I miss charms and multimodal spells
maybe maindeck Thrashing Brontodon or Greenbelt Rampager could live to see my turn 4, or I'll cave and just run the Shapers' Sanctuary
Ranger is essential for churning into your combo pieces and flipping Climb. It's rough sometimes but I don't think you can afford to cut too many copies, maybe down to 3 copies at the minimum.
Thrashing Brontodon is a nice out to have in the maindeck, but it's off-plan and only really good against red decks, so I would avoid going too heavily on that. Maybe swap the 4th Ranger for Brontodon if you want, but realistically if you're running into a lot of red decks, you should be playing a different deck instead of trying to tech this one for red, because this archetype has never had good red matchups and this iteration is the worst yet in this regard.
I haven't tried Greenbelt Rampager in this version of the deck, but the card's rate is a lot less efficient without the freebie energy lying around, and it was barely playable even when we had all the free energy sources. Hard to imagine anything's changed.
I know Jadelight Ranger is a 3 or 4 of in every list but I'm finding turn 3 of my matches pretty vulnerable, where the Ranger probably won't cut it and unless I have a 2 drop & Blossoming Defense or my opponent did nothing to my turn 2 drop(which is never) I don't feel great moving forward or waiting a turn to have Blossom up.
I saw some lists trying out Claim // Fame as a way to recover your dead 2 drop and lay another 2mana spell on turn 3. I think that might be okay but there's still Magma Spray out there; but if its a snek at least it's safe. Maybe it's good enough for me because I also run Gifted Aetherborn
all the Sultai lists I see now are identical and I don't know how to keep the tempo going, I miss charms and multimodal spells
maybe maindeck Thrashing Brontodon or Greenbelt Rampager could live to see my turn 4, or I'll cave and just run the Shapers' Sanctuary
You typically drop a 2-drop on T2 expecting it to die, yes, which gives you some choice on what to put down. You will most often either a) put down a value card like Merfolk Branchwalker that you can get value from even if it dies or b) drop a creature like Snek and, if you untap with it, try to run away with the game. We have such a critical mass of creatures because we are expecting our creatures to die.
Brontodon is still going to die. Sure, it survives Abrade and Lightning Strike, which gives it a higher rate of survivability, but it will die all the same (Glorybringer, Fatal Push, Cut // Ribbons, Vraska's Contempt). Play the card that you think gives the most value. Brontodon makes the cut if your meta has a) an abnormally high amount of GPG, b) a reasonable amount of aggro where the 3/4 stat makes a difference, or c) other artifact/enchantment-centric decks where its ability can be impactful. Otherwise, I'd choose Ranger. If it dies, you still got value out of it (which can't be said for Brontodon).
I wouldn't do Shapers' Sanctuary. It's not worth it. I mean, sure, it's something to on T1, and it can make your opponent play slightly differently, but it likely won't make a difference. And it will be the deadest of dead draws later in the game when you're hoping to topdeck action.
I've always liked Claim // Fame, but it doesn't diversify your deck. You could go top end, like adding in Vehicles or Planeswalkers, to help make your deck more resilient. I like running Liliana in the sideboard for this very reason, and she provides recursion also.
There's also another one using Jadelight Ranger in 8th place. I notice both are energy builds with Hadana's Climb, which I've been contemplating switching to. Seems pretty solid.
Crushed a B/W tokens deck, mostly on the power of Ballista. Went 2-0.
Played against Dimir Midrange which made me regret not running Scarab God. He lost the first game mostly due to me immediately seizing the advantage when he misplayed whether to put the counters from an Ifnir Deadlands on my unprotected Bristling Hydra or my Glint-sleeve Siphoner. I managed to play well and fly in for the win with a flipped Hadana's Climb.
Second game was grindy and going to turns. However, I could not win around the second The Scarab God. He dropped it the turn after I exiled the first and proceeded to steal a hydra and then resurrect several of his own creatures. I didn't see Hadana's Climb until it was a turn too late.
In my mind that match should have gone 2-0 in his favor. I only one game 1 due to his misplay. Not sure if I sideboarded correctly against him in game two.
GP didn't go so hot. lost to very aggro draws and seeing none of my answers. Unlicensed Disintegration was particularly unkind, was teched out for all the control matches, didn't get any. I would have loved to get paired vs. all the R/U God-Pharaohs
We can talk about the new set now that the whole set is spoiled. But for this archetype, I'm not sure that I see a whole lot? I mean, we get better mana because of Woodland Cemetery. We could run Llanowar Elves for that early ramp, but I'm not sure how much it gains us? The only other card I saw was Wild Onslaught for shenanigans, but at 4 mana, Verdurous Gearhulk seems better (1 more mana for a trample body, because how often will we have more than 4 creatures on the board?).
Llanowar elves could be significant. Being able to play out constrictor turn 2 plus hold up blossoming defense looks good. Also, the deck has some really nice choices in the 4 and 5 drop slot. Bristling Hydra and Ravenous Chupacabra. It could allow us to play 3-4 copies of verdurous gearhulk.
There's also Adventurous Impulse. This may be the most significant card I see for us. We don't have a one drop. This can help us find snake or other creature synergy for a mere one mana. Can also play alongside Llanowar elves giving us even more options for a big mana deck. This also helps fix colors mana wise as we can search for a land or creature we need to produce a third color.
I can foresee Adventurous impulse alongside llanowar elves, 4 hydras, maybe Ravenous chupacabra and plenty of gearhulks. Elves could help us get under control decks possibly? I'm not experienced enough to know, but seems potentially helpful.
The addition of Woodland cemetery to the deck is nothing to downplay either.
Also cast down looks potentially very good. It will depend on how the meta shapes up with all of these legendary creatures. Sideboard card at least in my opinion.
Untamed kavu looks cute. Not better than gearhulk, but kind of interesting. He's a great choice for a counter dump with all of those abilities and flexible mana cost. Worth mentioning at least.
There's also Adventurous Impulse. This may be the most significant card I see for us. We don't have a one drop. This can help us find snake or other creature synergy for a mere one mana. Can also play alongside Llanowar elves giving us even more options for a big mana deck. This also helps fix colors mana wise as we can search for a land or creature we need to produce a third color.
I can foresee Adventurous impulse alongside llanowar elves, 4 hydras, maybe Ravenous chupacabra and plenty of gearhulks. Elves could help us get under control decks possibly? I'm not experienced enough to know, but seems potentially helpful.
The addition of Woodland cemetery to the deck is nothing to downplay either.
Also cast down looks potentially very good. It will depend on how the meta shapes up with all of these legendary creatures. Sideboard card at least in my opinion.
Untamed kavu looks cute. Not better than gearhulk, but kind of interesting. He's a great choice for a counter dump with all of those abilities and flexible mana cost. Worth mentioning at least.
I feel like the deck will have much stronger mana, for sure, being able to leverage the fast lands and check lands for both BG and UG. If we go to 4-of Adventurous Impulse, we can likely drop back to 21 lands like the deck was before. If we run Impulse, I'm not sure the deck wants Llanowar Elves. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure the deck has much more innovation with this new set. I feel like it has stagnated a little, which is not good with an evolving meta.
My experience is that ramp does not help against Control. They still just counter what they need to counter and kill what they need to kill, and a 1/1 does not pose a significant clock. The only thing Elves does help with is allowing us to curve out 2-drop on T2 without fear of Censor.
How do you all see this deck doing after Dominaria hits?
It's funny how I think Domniaria by itself seems like a very strong release, but doesn't look like it has any obvious choices for current meta. (I'm not very smart so I don't see that stuff so easily anyway... just saying)
I'm really hyped for playing it in Limited, commander and brawl, but not sure about what to add to my standard decks other than the lands which are awesome. Losing foul orchard to Woodland Cemetery is amazing. I hate foul orchard so bad.
(And maybe making a wizard tribal deck too. Seems like a fun deck for a different thread)
Would it make sense to use Llanowar Elves instead of Servant of the Conduit? Would the potentially faster start be worth it over having access to more energy and all mana colours?
what about Song of Freyalis. Too slow for the deck?
Would it make sense to use Llanowar Elves instead of Servant of the Conduit? Would the potentially faster start be worth it over having access to more energy and all mana colours?
what about Song of Freyalis. Too slow for the deck?
1. Yes. This deck's 2CC slot is clogged, and moving your ramp to the 1CC slot is great. If you play ramp, that is. The jury still seems to be out on whether Servant was really necessary for this deck. But yeah, I'll happily give up the energy counters and color fixing for a decrease in mana cost. We now get to play sneks, Siphoners etc. on turn 2 with mana up for Blossoming Defense, or we get to slam a Hadana's Climb or Rishkar on turn 2.
2. Too slow for this deck.
Overall, I'm not too happy with the (lack of) support we're getting with this set, but we'll have to see. We may just as well get an advantage from other decks rising to prominence that we have a strong matchup against.
I pulled two Woodland Cemetery and a playset of Llanowar Elves (Still have my old white border Llanowar Elves, but I hate the artwork on it hehe)
I can't wait to swap out Foul Orchard for Woodland Cemetery. I hate Foul Orchard....
Do you guys think this deck has potential to survive in the next meta? I kinda feel like the explosive nature of the deck will give it a good shot of still being strong, but you never know how the new meta will shape up.
I'm going to do an Izzet wizard deck too. That deck looks really fun and plays way different than this. nice with a bit of variety hehe. I'm known as the Snake guy at my local game store.
Just wondering what people think is the best turn two play in general in this deck when all other things are generally equal: Constrictor, Servant, or Siphoner? I think it's clear that if you're about to curve up into a Hydra, Servant is probably best, and if you're about to hit a Rishkar, Constrictor is better. Is Siphoner better in all other circumstances? This question assumes a pretty typical build.
Thanks in advance!
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I actually want to go back to 23 lands. If you're running an "average" list, statistically you shouldn't need more than 23-24 lands.
Thanks for posting that link. It was an interesting read.
I'm actually surprised he says Negate sucks so much in the deck. I see his points, I'm just still surprised. I almost feel like it's the most powerful sideboard card I have since I went with sultai, but I'm seeing more lists pop up without Negate in the sideboard.
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Walking Ballista
4 Jadelight Ranger
4 Bristling Hydra
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
Spells (9)
3 Hadana's Climb
3 Blossoming Defense
3 Vraska's Contempt
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Fetid Pools
3 Foul Orchard
1 Island
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Duress
2 Cartouche of Ambition
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
3 Thrashing Brontodon
2 The Scarab God
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
2 Nissa, Steward of Elements
Game 1, you are a beatdown-combo deck against everybody, no matter how good or bad that might be against the opposing deck. Hadana's Climb + Winding Constrictor can "combo-kill" from a high opposing life total, and Bristling Hydra can wear the counters like a champion. Winding Constrictor separately enables very explosive draws involving Verdurous Gearhulk or Bristling Hydra, and powers up the already-great Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and Walking Ballista. I opted to have the bare minimum interaction in Blossoming Defense (a "combo" piece with Winged Temple that usually buys a turn) and Vraska's Contempt (expensive but necessary to handle over-the-top threats).
Probably the most eye-catching tuning decision was cutting Fatal Push from the maindeck, and I did that because the addition of Hadana's Climb to the deck and the construction of the red deck really invalidates Push as a way to win a race.
Having a random Fatal Push somewhere in your curve is not making the difference most of the time -- there's really nothing good to tag. Their 1-drops mostly suck and exist to get cards out of their hand for Hazoret (if they also get one out of yours, great!), Earthshaker Khenra (and Scrapheap Scrounger in the black splash) comes back, and everything else laughs at it. It's good if you can tag exactly Kari Zev while deploying another threat, that's it.
Furthermore, having Hadana's Climb in your deck forces you down this road of always having a creature play on turn 2 no matter how rough of a play it is. Hadana's Climb flipping into Winged Temple of Orazca is your ticket to flipping the race on its head and winning, but it doesn't work if you don't play out threats continually and get it flipped before Hazoret can kill you. And since their whole deck is a pile of hasty creatures with Hammerhand stapled to them, those creatures can do one thing: attack. Attacking is good here since your chip-shot damage is probably enough to put them into Winged Temple OHKO range.
I frankly think trying to race red is a losing proposition, but the addition of Hadana's Climb and the construction of the red deck just structurally puts us in a terrible place. You need them to brick on some aspect of their draw, that's just how it is. Given that you need this anyway, you might as well maximize your good draws against them, which tend to involve 2-drop -> Climb -> Hydra or two 2-drops -> flip Climb, go to clown town.
The only place I like Fatal Push is the mirror, where you might need it on the draw in order to catch up against an opponent's explosive Constrictor -> Climb or 2-drop -> 2-drop + Push your 2-drop draw. I'm willing to give up percentage points in those situations because I've noticed that the quick "snowball" draws don't happen nearly as often with Longtusk Cub effectively banned from the deck. Once Bristling Hydra hits the field for both players, profitable attacks tend to go away quickly until Hadana's Climb flips. Since the game gets grotesquely uninteractive once the board stalls out, I'd rather draw more threats and make land drops to use Winged Temple or Walking Ballista effectively instead of drawing Pushes.
Against everyone else, Fatal Push is anywhere from "marginal and probably worse than a threat, Blossoming Defense or Vraska's Contempt" to "outright terrible." Not having them in your deck is an upgrade.
In the sideboard, I have a package of Scarab God, Vraska, Lifecrafter's Bestiary and Nissa that I bring in for situations where I think I'm unlikely to be able to set up a combo -- control decks are one example, but also GR Monsters, which can back up early aggression with the godlike duo of Chandra and Glorybringer, who are typically lights-out against this strategy. How much of these elements I bring in depends upon the specific deck I'm up against, but the general idea is that I stacked my g1 deck heavily toward explosive draws and Winged Temple combos, and in g2/g3 I expect my opponents to be better able to disrupt me, so if they're already packing good disruption as part of their deck, I want to be off the explosive plan altogether and try to level them by being a little bit bigger midrange deck. Brontodons are beefy idiots for red that also make sure I don't have to register Naturalize or the crappy equivalents that we had from Kaladesh. Cartouche of Ambition is probably the best card (aside from perhaps Aethersphere Harvester?) for executing the "race red" plan, since Harvesters can actually block and Cartouche on a Hydra is lights out. I'm not going to try very hard to beat red with this deck but I'm willing to give myself that much of a shot. Duress is generic disruption for control decks.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Maybe I'm just weird, but I like Fatal Push against anything playing Glint-Sleeve Siphoner (Grixis Energy, Sultai Aggro), RG Monsters, GW Aggro, BW Aggro, BR Aggro and R/X Aggro. That's just from my experience playing locally and online. I think you're idea banks too much on the idea of being on the play in G1 against aggro decks.
I've run against the whole gauntlet. You can't actually play the control role against R/x decks with the Hadana's Climb build with any reliability. Outside of Kari Zev, Push doesn't do very much against their deck, and I'd rather play my own 2-drop and try to set up a Hadana's Climb kill as quickly as possible. I acknowledge it's hard to race them -- that's why the matchup is bad: you start on the backfoot and don't have any really good mechanisms for breaking serve in a meaningful way, except for combo-killing with Climb.
Push is good against Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but you have Walking Ballista to deal with Siphoner if you need to take it out ASAP for whatever reason. Push is typically awful against Siphoner decks, since Siphoner is the only good target for it. Drawing Push against Grixis when they just don't draw Siphoner is effectively a mulligan, ditto against UB. (Sultai Constrictor is the exception, and I listed that as the one place where I think not running Push costs me percentage points.) Push is flat-out awful against RG Monsters (their only targets are all 2-for-1s), GW Aggro (same thing), BW Aggro (they have Legion's Lieutenant which is an important target, but otherwise same thing), and we've talked about the R/x decks earlier.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Against R/X decks, I will use Push on anything early. Letting Bomat Courier or even Fanatical Firebrand do more than 1 damage to you is a mistake. I mean it feels like you forget that they can Lightning Strike and Abrade their way through your creatures to kill you with draft trash. If you kill their early game, they tend to run out of gas, which means you should end up winning the long game so long as you didn't take unnecessary chip shots. This is actually one of the matches where I shave on Hadana's Climb. I generally just don't want it, especially early in the game.
Against RG Monsters... yes, they have 2-for-1's across turns. I'm just trying to break up the bursts so Glorybringer isn't just a 4/4 finisher on curve. If they tap out to bring back a Khenra, odds are that they're not doing anything else that turn. So you're telling me Fatal Push isn't good against that? Literally the only card it's completely useless against is Glorybringer, Rhonas the Indomitable and maybe Verdurous Gearhulk (not sure they play this).
Against decks playing Siphoner (UB and Grixis midrange in particular), I like Fatal Push a little less largely because games are probably going long no matter what happens. So dealing with the early game isn't really my priority as it is with aggro decks. I still tend to keep 2 in unless I'm on the play. Allowing a Siphoner to live in a long, drawn out match is suicidal imo.
Against BW aggro, I have used Fatal Push as a 4-damage spell against Adanto Vanguard. It also kills Legion Lieutenant, Metallic Mimic, Skymarcher Aspirant and a ton of other things. I'm legitimately confused about your comment on this match because they use Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle to keep powering more stuff out. It's just trying to build up to a critical mass of stuff to kill you with. If it never builds, it never matters. In particular, the nontoken creatures matter the most. The only time this is a problem is when Yahenni is out with Mavren Fein.
I know Jadelight Ranger is a 3 or 4 of in every list but I'm finding turn 3 of my matches pretty vulnerable, where the Ranger probably won't cut it and unless I have a 2 drop & Blossoming Defense or my opponent did nothing to my turn 2 drop(which is never) I don't feel great moving forward or waiting a turn to have Blossom up.
I saw some lists trying out Claim // Fame as a way to recover your dead 2 drop and lay another 2mana spell on turn 3. I think that might be okay but there's still Magma Spray out there; but if its a snek at least it's safe. Maybe it's good enough for me because I also run Gifted Aetherborn
all the Sultai lists I see now are identical and I don't know how to keep the tempo going, I miss charms and multimodal spells
maybe maindeck Thrashing Brontodon or Greenbelt Rampager could live to see my turn 4, or I'll cave and just run the Shapers' Sanctuary
Ranger is essential for churning into your combo pieces and flipping Climb. It's rough sometimes but I don't think you can afford to cut too many copies, maybe down to 3 copies at the minimum.
Thrashing Brontodon is a nice out to have in the maindeck, but it's off-plan and only really good against red decks, so I would avoid going too heavily on that. Maybe swap the 4th Ranger for Brontodon if you want, but realistically if you're running into a lot of red decks, you should be playing a different deck instead of trying to tech this one for red, because this archetype has never had good red matchups and this iteration is the worst yet in this regard.
I haven't tried Greenbelt Rampager in this version of the deck, but the card's rate is a lot less efficient without the freebie energy lying around, and it was barely playable even when we had all the free energy sources. Hard to imagine anything's changed.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
You typically drop a 2-drop on T2 expecting it to die, yes, which gives you some choice on what to put down. You will most often either a) put down a value card like Merfolk Branchwalker that you can get value from even if it dies or b) drop a creature like Snek and, if you untap with it, try to run away with the game. We have such a critical mass of creatures because we are expecting our creatures to die.
Brontodon is still going to die. Sure, it survives Abrade and Lightning Strike, which gives it a higher rate of survivability, but it will die all the same (Glorybringer, Fatal Push, Cut // Ribbons, Vraska's Contempt). Play the card that you think gives the most value. Brontodon makes the cut if your meta has a) an abnormally high amount of GPG, b) a reasonable amount of aggro where the 3/4 stat makes a difference, or c) other artifact/enchantment-centric decks where its ability can be impactful. Otherwise, I'd choose Ranger. If it dies, you still got value out of it (which can't be said for Brontodon).
I wouldn't do Shapers' Sanctuary. It's not worth it. I mean, sure, it's something to on T1, and it can make your opponent play slightly differently, but it likely won't make a difference. And it will be the deadest of dead draws later in the game when you're hoping to topdeck action.
I've always liked Claim // Fame, but it doesn't diversify your deck. You could go top end, like adding in Vehicles or Planeswalkers, to help make your deck more resilient. I like running Liliana in the sideboard for this very reason, and she provides recursion also.
There's also another one using Jadelight Ranger in 8th place. I notice both are energy builds with Hadana's Climb, which I've been contemplating switching to. Seems pretty solid.
Crushed a B/W tokens deck, mostly on the power of Ballista. Went 2-0.
Played against Dimir Midrange which made me regret not running Scarab God. He lost the first game mostly due to me immediately seizing the advantage when he misplayed whether to put the counters from an Ifnir Deadlands on my unprotected Bristling Hydra or my Glint-sleeve Siphoner. I managed to play well and fly in for the win with a flipped Hadana's Climb.
Second game was grindy and going to turns. However, I could not win around the second The Scarab God. He dropped it the turn after I exiled the first and proceeded to steal a hydra and then resurrect several of his own creatures. I didn't see Hadana's Climb until it was a turn too late.
In my mind that match should have gone 2-0 in his favor. I only one game 1 due to his misplay. Not sure if I sideboarded correctly against him in game two.
(Gifted Aetherborn in the maindeck helped a lot since I didn't see Hadana's climb until later.
Game three was against Mardu Vehicles. Didn't even know anyone was playing that anymore. Went 2-1. (Lost game 2 to a fast start).
I can foresee Adventurous impulse alongside llanowar elves, 4 hydras, maybe Ravenous chupacabra and plenty of gearhulks. Elves could help us get under control decks possibly? I'm not experienced enough to know, but seems potentially helpful.
The addition of Woodland cemetery to the deck is nothing to downplay either.
Also cast down looks potentially very good. It will depend on how the meta shapes up with all of these legendary creatures. Sideboard card at least in my opinion.
Untamed kavu looks cute. Not better than gearhulk, but kind of interesting. He's a great choice for a counter dump with all of those abilities and flexible mana cost. Worth mentioning at least.
I feel like the deck will have much stronger mana, for sure, being able to leverage the fast lands and check lands for both BG and UG. If we go to 4-of Adventurous Impulse, we can likely drop back to 21 lands like the deck was before. If we run Impulse, I'm not sure the deck wants Llanowar Elves. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure the deck has much more innovation with this new set. I feel like it has stagnated a little, which is not good with an evolving meta.
My experience is that ramp does not help against Control. They still just counter what they need to counter and kill what they need to kill, and a 1/1 does not pose a significant clock. The only thing Elves does help with is allowing us to curve out 2-drop on T2 without fear of Censor.
It's funny how I think Domniaria by itself seems like a very strong release, but doesn't look like it has any obvious choices for current meta. (I'm not very smart so I don't see that stuff so easily anyway... just saying)
I'm really hyped for playing it in Limited, commander and brawl, but not sure about what to add to my standard decks other than the lands which are awesome. Losing foul orchard to Woodland Cemetery is amazing. I hate foul orchard so bad.
(And maybe making a wizard tribal deck too. Seems like a fun deck for a different thread)
Would it make sense to use Llanowar Elves instead of Servant of the Conduit? Would the potentially faster start be worth it over having access to more energy and all mana colours?
what about Song of Freyalis. Too slow for the deck?
1. Yes. This deck's 2CC slot is clogged, and moving your ramp to the 1CC slot is great. If you play ramp, that is. The jury still seems to be out on whether Servant was really necessary for this deck. But yeah, I'll happily give up the energy counters and color fixing for a decrease in mana cost. We now get to play sneks, Siphoners etc. on turn 2 with mana up for Blossoming Defense, or we get to slam a Hadana's Climb or Rishkar on turn 2.
2. Too slow for this deck.
Overall, I'm not too happy with the (lack of) support we're getting with this set, but we'll have to see. We may just as well get an advantage from other decks rising to prominence that we have a strong matchup against.
I can't wait to swap out Foul Orchard for Woodland Cemetery. I hate Foul Orchard....
Do you guys think this deck has potential to survive in the next meta? I kinda feel like the explosive nature of the deck will give it a good shot of still being strong, but you never know how the new meta will shape up.
I'm going to do an Izzet wizard deck too. That deck looks really fun and plays way different than this. nice with a bit of variety hehe. I'm known as the Snake guy at my local game store.
Just wondering what people think is the best turn two play in general in this deck when all other things are generally equal: Constrictor, Servant, or Siphoner? I think it's clear that if you're about to curve up into a Hydra, Servant is probably best, and if you're about to hit a Rishkar, Constrictor is better. Is Siphoner better in all other circumstances? This question assumes a pretty typical build.
Thanks in advance!